Message 80c47de4U5S-3850-948-30.htm, number 5685, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 15:48:17
For Neuren: Bouncing emails?

Charley Seavey
seavey@u.arizona.edu


Sorry folks, but Al's emails are bouncing and I need to talk to him....

charley
aka Desert Sailor


Message cfe4cce8uG3-3850-1197-30.htm, number 5686, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 19:57:46
in reply to c769f82c00A-3850-682-30.htm

advances in naval architecture

Neuren
shuri@nqi.net


On Mon Jul 17, Chris wrote
--------------------------
>On Mon Jul 17, Larry Finch wrote
>--------------------------------
>>On Sun Jul 16, Murray Wilcox wrote
>>----------------------------------
>>>On Thu Jul 13, pogie wrote
>>>--------------------------
>>>>Countless times in the novels Jack is thwarted by another ship being able to sail closer to the wind or running faster before the wind or...As one who knows little of sailing besides what I've learned while reading I've wondered if a modern naval architect would be able to design a vastly superior ship using the same materials as were used in age of sail.  I suspect much of the improvement in modern ships is not so much design as better materials e.g. lighter hull material, superior sails, aluminum spars etc.  Could someone who knows a little about sailing and design weigh in?

>>>I'm not a Naval architect, but Jack most often sailed the Surprise which sailed closer to wind than most other ships. The efficiency of a square rigger is less than a ship rigged with fore & aft sails and while lighter materials will always reduce speed, sqaure riggers cannot sail as close to the wind as e.g. clipper ships. Consequently, sail design has a greater effect than materials when sailing closer to the wind.  Sailing before the wind, I'm  not sure.  Anyone else?

>>Sailing before the wind or on a broad reach (wind abaft the beam) all that counts is sail area (and masts strong enough to carry the sail), so a square rigger will be more efficient. Fore and aft rigs can sail much closer to the wind (4 points or better vs 6 points). Fore and aft can be equal to square-rigged on a broad reach, so the only real benefit to square-rigged is before the wind. That's why some designs of the time have both rigs. It's also why the Ringle was so useful.

>>Modern sailboat designers know a lot more about the aerodynamics of sailing than 18th century designers did, so it should be possible to design a much more efficient Surprise today, even with the same materials.

>>Hull design is important, also, probably more so than materials. Consider the fact that the best single-hulled boat can manage 12 knots or a little better; multi-hulled can sail 30 knots on a beam reach.

>>Materials count primarily in the rigging; all weight aloft is a disadvantage because it raises the center of gravity of the vessel, so the masts and spars should be as light as possible. Metal alloys, graphite, and dacron sails and running rigging make a lot of difference.

>>Larry

>>--
>>Larry Finch
>>::finches@bellatlantic.net   larry@prolifics.com
>>::LarryFinch@aol.com         (whew!)
>>N 40° 53' 47"
>>W 74° 03' 56"

>Larry,

>I thought clipper ships *were* square rigged.

>I had always thought that the reason why so many ships of the period were square rigged is that (a) one advantage of square rigged ships is being able to put a lot of sail much higher above water level than most fore-and-aft rigs, which is of great help when in little wind (see Jack's and Stephen's frequent discussions of how much more wind there is in the tops than on deck, and their discussions of how much being stuck in the duldroms slows a trip), (b) both merchant ships and men of war carried immense weights of cargo/guns, and so need the vast areas of sail that a square rigger can provide in order to achieve any decent rate of sail, and (c) many of the trade routes were designed to go with prevailing trade winds on a broad reach or run, so fore-and-aft rigs provided little increase in speed for most of such journeys.

>I'm not a ship-designer either, that's just what my general impression and experience has been.  I'll bow to the vastly greater knowledge of many on this forum.

>Chris
>>
>Clipper ships were square rigged.  Coasting vessels ultimately became for and aft rigged.  Many had five or six masts.  One behemoth I believe had seven.  My understanding is that the square riggers are much faster on the open seas, but not highly manueverable; whereas the fore and aft rigge ships were more manueverable but not as fast.  The speed for the fore and aft rigged was adequate, but the need for manueverablity along the cost with the lee shore was necessary.  Many of the Down East vessels which became the quintessential vessel in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century did not carry cargos requiring speedy delivery like the old China clippers.  Cargoes were frequently lumber, coal, and other base products.


Message cfe4cce8uG3-3850-1199-30.htm, number 5687, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 19:58:48
in reply to 80c47de4U5S-3850-948-30.htm

For Neuren: Bouncing emails?

Neuren
shuri@nqi.net


On Mon Jul 17, Charley Seavey wrote
-----------------------------------
>Sorry folks, but Al's emails are bouncing and I need to talk to him....

>charley
>aka Desert Sailor

Charley, ich bin hier.  Try shuri@clinic.net


Message 8d9627c700A-3850-1298-30.htm, number 5688, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 21:38:27
in reply to c769f82c00A-3850-682-30.htm

advances in naval architecture

Larry Finch


On Mon Jul 17, Chris wrote
--------------------------
>On Mon Jul 17, Larry Finch wrote
>--------------------------------
>>On Sun Jul 16, Murray Wilcox wrote
>>----------------------------------
>>>On Thu Jul 13, pogie wrote
>>>--------------------------
>>>>Countless times in the novels Jack is thwarted by another ship being able to sail closer to the wind or running faster before the wind or...As one who knows little of sailing besides what I've learned while reading I've wondered if a modern naval architect would be able to design a vastly superior ship using the same materials as were used in age of sail.  I suspect much of the improvement in modern ships is not so much design as better materials e.g. lighter hull material, superior sails, aluminum spars etc.  Could someone who knows a little about sailing and design weigh in?

>>>I'm not a Naval architect, but Jack most often sailed the Surprise which sailed closer to wind than most other ships. The efficiency of a square rigger is less than a ship rigged with fore & aft sails and while lighter materials will always reduce speed, sqaure riggers cannot sail as close to the wind as e.g. clipper ships. Consequently, sail design has a greater effect than materials when sailing closer to the wind.  Sailing before the wind, I'm  not sure.  Anyone else?

>>Sailing before the wind or on a broad reach (wind abaft the beam) all that counts is sail area (and masts strong enough to carry the sail), so a square rigger will be more efficient. Fore and aft rigs can sail much closer to the wind (4 points or better vs 6 points). Fore and aft can be equal to square-rigged on a broad reach, so the only real benefit to square-rigged is before the wind. That's why some designs of the time have both rigs. It's also why the Ringle was so useful.

>>Modern sailboat designers know a lot more about the aerodynamics of sailing than 18th century designers did, so it should be possible to design a much more efficient Surprise today, even with the same materials.

>>Hull design is important, also, probably more so than materials. Consider the fact that the best single-hulled boat can manage 12 knots or a little better; multi-hulled can sail 30 knots on a beam reach.

>>Materials count primarily in the rigging; all weight aloft is a disadvantage because it raises the center of gravity of the vessel, so the masts and spars should be as light as possible. Metal alloys, graphite, and dacron sails and running rigging make a lot of difference.

>>Larry

>>--
>>Larry Finch
>>::finches@bellatlantic.net   larry@prolifics.com
>>::LarryFinch@aol.com         (whew!)
>>N 40° 53' 47"
>>W 74° 03' 56"

>Larry,

>I thought clipper ships *were* square rigged.

>I had always thought that the reason why so many ships of the period were square rigged is that (a) one advantage of square rigged ships is being able to put a lot of sail much higher above water level than most fore-and-aft rigs, which is of great help when in little wind (see Jack's and Stephen's frequent discussions of how much more wind there is in the tops than on deck, and their discussions of how much being stuck in the duldroms slows a trip), (b) both merchant ships and men of war carried immense weights of cargo/guns, and so need the vast areas of sail that a square rigger can provide in order to achieve any decent rate of sail, and (c) many of the trade routes were designed to go with prevailing trade winds on a broad reach or run, so fore-and-aft rigs provided little increase in speed for most of such journeys.

>I'm not a ship-designer either, that's just what my general impression and experience has been.  I'll bow to the vastly greater knowledge of many on this forum.

>Chris
>>
>

I didn't say clipper ships were fore and aft rigged; that was someone else ;)

Although the Ringle, a "Baltimore Clipper", was fore and aft rigged.

Larry


Message cfac0b9400A-3850-1307-30.htm, number 5689, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 21:49:29
in reply to d8c0e80400A-3846-86-30.htm

advances in naval architecture

Mark Henry


On Thu Jul 13, pogie wrote
--------------------------
>Countless times in the novels Jack is thwarted by another ship being able to sail closer to the wind or running faster before the wind or...As one who knows little of sailing besides what I've learned while reading I've wondered if a modern naval architect would be able to design a vastly superior ship using the same materials as were used in age of sail.  I suspect much of the improvement in modern ships is not so much design as better materials e.g. lighter hull material, superior sails, aluminum spars etc.  Could someone who knows a little about sailing and design weigh in?

--------------------------

A ship design is the result of many compromises among a long list of competing requirements.  Hence, the answer to Pogie's question extends beyond a ship's sailing characteristics and the (often discussed) relative merits of square rigged versus fore and aft rigged ships.

Using Jack Aubrey's ship as the basis for comparison, a naval architect has many choices as to which of the SURPRISE's many characteristics to make "vastly superior."  He (or she) could try to obtain, as Pogie suggested, superior speed (relative to one or more aspects of wind direction) or ability to sail closer to the wind.  Other characteristics that could be made superior are firepower (more or heavier guns) and hull strength (to withstand storms or battle damage) or even some other, more mundane, characteristic such as better accommodations for the crew or increased volume for food stowage to allow longer voyages.  

A naval architect of Jack's era could provide superior performance for any of these characteristics by sacrificing one or more of the other characteristics.  A fore and aft rig would permit the ship to sail closer to the wind but with a loss of speed with the wind abeam or astern due to reduced sail area.  Finer bow and stern hull lines would reduce hydrodynamic drag and increase speed.  However, some weight reduction at the ends of the ship would be required to match the reduction in the displacement at the ends -- removal of guns from the bow and stern is the obvious solution.  (Vastly superior performance for many important aspects of SURPRISE's characteristics can be obtained by designing a larger (but more expensive) ship; e.g., CONSTITUTION, which was faster and had a stronger hull, had heavier armament, but could not sail closer to the wind, required a larger crew and had a deeper draft.)

Today's naval architects could design a significantly improved frigate hull structure without using modern materials.  During the wooden ship era, it was generally believed that the strength of a ship was primarily in its bottom and keel structure and massive keel structures were built to improve hull strength.  As was not well understood until later (when iron ships were already common), the entire ship hull, including the ship's sides and decks, acts as a beam.  (The large deck openings in the waist of many wooden warships greatly reduced the overall strength of the hull and contributed towards their tendency to "hog.")  Thus, a modern design wooden hull could be quite superior, even using the old fastenings (spikes, bolts, wood treenails, etc.), which are a weak link in the connection of relatively strong wood timbers.  For example, using two layers of planking, with one layer diagonal to the other, would help overcome the absence of edge attachment in the side planking, which makes for an ineffective structure.

Today's naval architect would also use modern hydrodynamics and aerodynamics to obtain reduced hull drag and better sail design (for increased speed) and better maneuverability.  However, it is doubtful that square-rigged ships would be able to sail significantly closer to the wind unless their yards could be braced around further than they formerly could be.  That limit was imposed by the shrouds and stays.

Mark


Message c09c412200A-3851-123-30.htm, number 5690, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 02:02:57
in reply to 93bc8965P1v-3849-815-30.htm

Lieutenant vs. "Left-tenant"?

D. A. Runyon


Maybe it is the same reason the subjects from the empire tend pronounce "fillet" to rhyme with "skillet."   It is just a British thing to do.  

On Sun Jul 16, guy straker wrote
--------------------------------
>On Mon Jul 10, Phil Thomas wrote
>--------------------------------

>>>>The introduction of the 'left' sound in English useage apparently began in the 1400s with spellings such as lief, live and liev as corruptions of the original. It seems that US useage is closest to the original pronunciation, which I understand is also the case for other examples of English.
>>>>Phil  

>>Phil seems to have taken most of this from the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary but this source does not actually indicate that the original English pronunciation was anything other than 'leftenant'.

>The original French 'lieutenant' may well have been pronounced 'lootenant', but in medieval English and up to around 1600 'u' and 'v' were used almost interchangeably and this may have pointed the way to the traditional English pronunciation of 'leftenant'.

>Straker (sorry if I've broken any netiquette - it's my  first posting!)


Message c0afad2200A-3851-814-30.htm, number 5691, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 13:34:41
in reply to c09c412200A-3851-123-30.htm

Lieutenant vs. "Left-tenant"?

Bob Bridges, rhbridg@attglobal.net


I didn't know about that one.  But it fits with my very own tentative and private observation, that while the Spanish change the spelling of any word they borrow so no one has to guess how it is to be pronounced, the British tend to the opposite:  They keep the spelling but adapt the pronunciation.  (Observe the Brit pronunciation of "Nick-a-RAG-you-ah".)  Whereas the aggressively egalitarian Americans tend to keep the foreign spelling AND pronunciation -- or at least attempt it -- which gives us a chance to correct each other and feel superior.  At least, it does me.

On Tue Jul 18, D. A. Runyon wrote
---------------------------------
>Maybe it is the same reason the subjects from the empire tend pronounce "fillet" to rhyme with "skillet."   It is just a British thing to do.  

>On Sun Jul 16, guy straker wrote
>------------------------------
>>The original French 'lieutenant' may well have been pronounced 'lootenant', but in medieval English and up to around 1600 'u' and 'v' were used almost interchangeably and this may have pointed the way to the traditional English pronunciation of 'leftenant'.

>>On Mon Jul 10, Phil Thomas wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>>>The introduction of the 'left' sound in English useage apparently began in the 1400s with spellings such as lief, live and liev as corruptions of the original. It seems that US useage is closest to the original pronunciation, which I understand is also the case for other examples of English.


Message c0afad2200A-3851-821-30.htm, number 5692, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 13:41:38
in reply to c363f422wDZ-3850-415-30.htm

Radio drama -- of course!

Bob Bridges, rhbridg@attglobal.net


Funny -- I don't remember this coming up before (though it must have), but I really enjoy radio dramas.  Why couldn't a POB be done that way?  It'd help a lot with the expense....though I suppose there's no reason to suppose there's a market for it.

Maybe we should put one together, on an amateur basis.  We could pass around the results among ourselves and fight over how to do it better next time.  Might be kind of fun.  I volunteer to read for Christy-Palliere.

On Mon Jul 17, Martin Watts wrote
---------------------------------
>     I just had the most frightful picture of the production conference after remembering what they did to the first episode of Hornblower.

>     "It seems a bit slow at the start. Not much action. It starts during a classical music concert for chrissakes!"
>     "Why don't we go with the duel scene. That Maturin is way too complicated to keep track of as a permanent character."
>     "So they fight the duel and Aubrey wins - are we still calling him Aubrey?"
>     "Probably. But then we'd need a new character for the spy."
>     "We could use the Spanish barmaid, what was her name?"
>     "Mercedes. We could even get the car company to sponsor it..."

>     At this point I wake up and agree with the old idea that the pictures are better on radio.


Message c0afad2200A-3851-829-30.htm, number 5693, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 13:49:32
in reply to a270121dSdO-3849-1079-30.htm

Post Captain on radio?!

Bob Bridges, rhbridg@attglobal.net


Woops!  What's this?  There's a radio version of a POB?  Where can I hear it, or even buy it?

On Sun Jul 16, Chris Alderson wrote
-----------------------------------
>I had an email yesterday from the BBC, who told me that although they broadcast Post Captain on the radio, they were " not planning to broadcast a dramatised screen version on any of our terrestrial or digital channels".


Message c08ae15300A-3851-1024-30.htm, number 5694, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 17:06:02
in reply to cfac0b9400A-3850-1307-30.htm

advances in naval architecture

Guest


On Mon Jul 17, Mark Henry wrote
-------------------------------
>On Thu Jul 13, pogie wrote
>--------------------------
>>Countless times in the novels Jack is thwarted by another ship being able to sail closer to the wind or running faster before the wind or...As one who knows little of sailing besides what I've learned while reading I've wondered if a modern naval architect would be able to design a vastly superior ship using the same materials as were used in age of sail.  I suspect much of the improvement in modern ships is not so much design as better materials e.g. lighter hull material, superior sails, aluminum spars etc.  Could someone who knows a little about sailing and design weigh in?

>--------------------------

>A ship design is the result of many compromises among a long list of competing requirements.  Hence, the answer to Pogie's question extends beyond a ship's sailing characteristics and the (often discussed) relative merits of square rigged versus fore and aft rigged ships.

>Using Jack Aubrey's ship as the basis for comparison, a naval architect has many choices as to which of the SURPRISE's many characteristics to make "vastly superior."  He (or she) could try to obtain, as Pogie suggested, superior speed (relative to one or more aspects of wind direction) or ability to sail closer to the wind.  Other characteristics that could be made superior are firepower (more or heavier guns) and hull strength (to withstand storms or battle damage) or even some other, more mundane, characteristic such as better accommodations for the crew or increased volume for food stowage to allow longer voyages...  

Which explains much of the perceived difference between French and British ships.  French ships might have been better sailers, not because British ship designers were stupid, but because the RN chose to make different tradeoffs. The RN depended on ships that could stay for months on blockade duty off the coast of France.  As Mark has described, that meant compromises for strength and storage capacity. The French navy had different missions, and could build with finer lines for speed.  The Dutch built smaller ships, generally 64's or smaller, with shallow draughts because of their lack of deep water harbors. And the Americans found some success with Baltimore-clipper style hulls in small privateers for quick hit and run attacks on merchant ships.(Clipper at this time referred to a type of hull.  The big square-rigged merchant clipper ships came in mid 19th century, and their tradeoff of cargo carrying capacity for speed proved to eventually be an economic mistake.)

The French may have been ahead of the British in sail design during this period.  Lord Cochrane noted that the flatter cut of French sails seemed more efficient than the baggy shape used by the RN.

Don Seltzer


Message d53064e900A-3851-1034-30.htm, number 5695, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 17:15:19
in reply to cb3aaa02v3I-3840-1440-30.htm

Dudley Pope

Guest


On Sat Jul 8, Chris Bell wrote
------------------------------
>On Fri Jul 7, Martin Watts wrote
>--------------------------------
>>On Thu Jul 6, Chris Bell wrote
>>------------------------------
>>>It was on a search for another Pope novel that I discovered O'Brian about 8 years ago. At the time I was after a 'rollicking good read'.  With HMAS Surprise I got a hell of a lot more than that. There is no comparison, but in saying that, the authors aims are obviously different. I don't like this whole idea of comparisons anyway. Many good friends of mine would not make it through an O'Brian novel, despite my pleadings, yet would gobble up Pope's series of Ramage novels with no problem. So why compare. (And I am not knocking Popes novels at all - they led me to POB, and were a good read always...)
>>>By the way, the habit Ramage has of rubbing the scar above his eyebrow when under stress irritates the hell out of me after 2 books.
>>>-I will look for these non-fiction reads however - I didn't know they existed.
>>>-Chris.

>>   Chris, would .au be an Australian internet domain? I've never heard of HMAS Surprise before!

>>   I used to read the Ramage books before I discovered O'Brian, and probably for a bit after that as there were only three Aubrey books at that time!

>>   HMS Diamond Rock, as fictionalised in "Ramage's Diamond", was recaptured by Villeneuve's fleet before they returned to European waters and Trafalgar. It didn't prove to be such a good site for a gun battery as Ramage found it.

>>   I liked the non-fiction books by Pope, though I found the way he bulked some out irritating. The book about Copenhagen contained a great deal of detail from a newspaper of the time - apparently the same newspaper he recycled into one of the Ramage books.

>>Martin Watts
>>50° 45' N 1° 55' W.
>>The Borough and County of the Town of Poole
>>
>OOPS - force of habit, being an ex navy lad......Chris.
>The back of my hand to Dudley Pope. Authors who can sail but not write novels should stick to non-fiction, as admirably demonstrated by Eric Newby, in 'The Last Grain Race', an excellent account of a first-voyager's experiences in one of the last commercial tall ships to sail from England to the far side of the world. Published in UK by Grafton.
Alex Massey,RN,Port of Bristol.  


Message a270121dSdO-3851-1082-30.htm, number 5696, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 18:02:20
in reply to c0afad2200A-3851-829-30.htm

Post Captain on radio?!

Chris Alderson
chris.alderson@airnz.co.nz



Bob - I suspect that it is one of the book tape versions. But this is what they actually said:
Dear Chris

Thank you for taking the time to contact us.  Please accept my apologies for the delay in replying.  We know our correspondents appreciate a quick response and I am sorry that you have had to wait so long on this occasion.

Early in 1999 on BBC Radio 4, we did broadcast a play entitled 'Post Captain'. This series was based on Patrick O'Brien's novel, following the fortunes of Captain Jack Aubrey and his friend Dr Stephen Maturin in the Royal Navy of Nelson's time.

At the present time there are no plans to repeat this broadcast and similarly we are not planning to broadcast a dramatised screen version on any of our terrestrial or digital channels.  

However, if you would like to contact BBC World, which broadcast throughout New Zealand regarding your suggestion, please write to:

worldwidetv.letters@bbc.co.uk

Thank you again for taking the time to write.

Regards

Cathy McNeill
BBC Information


So if you'd like to follow up be my guest.

On Tue Jul 18, Bob Bridges, rhbridg@attglobal.net wrote
-------------------------------------------------------
>Woops!  What's this?  There's a radio version of a POB?  Where can I hear it, or even buy it?

>On Sun Jul 16, Chris Alderson wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>I had an email yesterday from the BBC, who told me that although they broadcast Post Captain on the radio, they were " not planning to broadcast a dramatised screen version on any of our terrestrial or digital channels".
>


Message 80c47de2U5S-3851-1213-30.htm, number 5697, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 20:13:35
in reply to c0afad2200A-3851-829-30.htm

Post Captain on radio?!

Charley Seavey
seavey@u.arizona.edu


On Tue Jul 18, Bob Bridges, rhbridg@attglobal.net wrote
-------------------------------------------------------
>Woops!  What's this?  There's a radio version of a POB?  Where can I hear it, or even buy it?

There was an actual adaptation,not just a reading, of Post Captain done by BBC- some kind lissun bootlegged me a tape last year sometime.  I was less than whelmed with the thing, although it may be that there was a lot of introductory material left out.  If one did not know the story, and fairly well, it was a long way from clear what the heck was going on.  There was a certain amount of chronological jumping about, and without explanation it got confusing. I think we had some posts on it and a search of the archives may turn up better information than I have here.  I do remember one bit that I thought funny.  Two characters, and I cannot now remember who, are discussing a certain Spanish vessel that the Sophy will meet:

"... but, Cacafuego? Doesn't that mean....?'
"Yes."

charley
aka Desert Sailor

>On Sun Jul 16, Chris Alderson wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>I had an email yesterday from the BBC, who told me that although they broadcast Post Captain on the radio, they were " not planning to broadcast a dramatised screen version on any of our terrestrial or digital channels".
>


Message d4bc9060D3Q-3851-1295-30.htm, number 5698, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 21:35:43
in reply to 80c47de2U5S-3851-1213-30.htm

Post Captain on radio?!

Mike Dolbear
m.dolbear@lineone.net


On Tue Jul 18, Charley Seavey wrote
-----------------------------------
>On Tue Jul 18, Bob Bridges, rhbridg@attglobal.net wrote
>-------------------------------------------------------
>>Woops!  What's this?  There's a radio version of a POB?  Where can I hear it, or even buy it?

>There was an actual adaptation,not just a reading, of Post Captain done by BBC- some kind lissun bootlegged me a tape last year sometime.  
[snip]

I only know of the reading www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/1999/02/15/radio4.html
10 x 15 minute slots.

==
10:45pm Book at Bedtime: Post Captain
Patrick Malahide reads Patrick O'Brien's novel following the fortunes of Captain Jack Aubrey and his friend Dr Stephen Maturin in the Royal Navy of Nelson's time. It is 1802 and with peace declared, Aubrey's trade vanishes at a stroke. Meanwhile, Maturin's career blossoms as an Admiralty spy (1/10).
==

Any date for the radio play ? (the BBC keep their schedules online as the above link shows)


Message c275924900A-3852-478-30.htm, number 5699, was posted on Wed Jul 19 at 07:58:53
in reply to c09c412200A-3851-123-30.htm

Lieutenant vs. "Left-tenant"?

Guest


On Tue Jul 18, D. A. Runyon wrote
---------------------------------
>Maybe it is the same reason the subjects from the empire tend pronounce "fillet" to rhyme with "skillet."   It is just a British thing to do.  

>On Sun Jul 16, guy straker wrote
>--------------------------------
>>On Mon Jul 10, Phil Thomas wrote
>>--------------------------------

>>>>>The introduction of the 'left' sound in English useage apparently began in the 1400s with spellings such as lief, live and liev as corruptions of the original. It seems that US useage is closest to the original pronunciation, which I understand is also the case for other examples of English.
>>>>>Phil  

>>>Phil seems to have taken most of this from the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary but this source does not actually indicate that the original English pronunciation was anything other than 'leftenant'.

>>The original French 'lieutenant' may well have been pronounced 'lootenant', but in medieval English and up to around 1600 'u' and 'v' were used almost interchangeably and this may have pointed the way to the traditional English pronunciation of 'leftenant'.

>>Straker (sorry if I've broken any netiquette - it's my  first posting!)
>
>>I too apologise for any netiquette misdemeanours, and don't mean to be contentious, but surely fillet SHOULD rhyme with skillet. The French original, as used by Englishmen in France, is filet.
Alex Massey, RN. Port of Bristol.


Message c08ae15300A-3852-551-30.htm, number 5700, was posted on Wed Jul 19 at 09:11:25
in reply to 8d962663ERH-3849-901-30.htm

Narwhal tusks revisited

Don Seltzer


On Sun Jul 16, Larry Finch wrote
--------------------------------
>The Cloisters in NYC, which houses the Metropolitan Museum of Art's Medieval collections, has a Narwhal tusk in the room with the Unicorn Tapestries.

>We also saw one at the Museum of Natural History in Paris on a model of a Narwhal this past spring. And the Museum of Natural History in NYC has one still attached to a Narwhal skeleton, but it is about 20 feet in the air and thus difficult to actually touch. It is a good presentation, however, because it makes it perfectly clear (as Stephen noted) that it is a tooth; specifically, the left upper incisor.

And there is a 3' tusk at the small, but fine Kendall Whaling Museum, located rather improbably in Sharon, MA, just off of I-95 between Boston and Providence.  The spirals on this one are a left-hand screw.  Does anyone know if all are like this, or are there some that are right-handed?

And which museum in Philadelphia was it, that POB visited and got to twirl their narwhal tusk?

Don Seltzer


Message c769f82c00A-3852-592-30.htm, number 5701, was posted on Wed Jul 19 at 09:52:43
Books on CD?

Chris


I'm well aware of the two different sets of Aubrey/Maturin on tape, but does anyone know if any readings are on CD, for those of us who have moved on into the twenty-first century, and if so where I can get them?  All major bookstores I've seen appear to just have tapes.  Thanks in advance for any information.

Chris


Message c253f023t5f-3852-718-30.htm, number 5702, was posted on Wed Jul 19 at 11:58:27
in reply to d4bc9060D3Q-3851-1295-30.htm

Post Captain on radio?!

Jane Skinner
jane.skinner@srl.cam.ac.uk


On Tue Jul 18, Mike Dolbear wrote
---------------------------------
>On Tue Jul 18, Charley Seavey wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>On Tue Jul 18, Bob Bridges, wrote
>>-------------------------------------------------------
>>> Woops!  What's this?  There's a radio version of a POB?
>>> Where can I hear it, or even buy it?
>>
>> There was an actual adaptation, not just a reading, of  
>> Post Captain done by BBC- some kind lissun bootlegged  
>> me a tape last year sometime
>  
> [snip]
>
> I only know of the reading www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/1999/02/15/radio4.html
> 10 x 15 minute slots.
> ==
> 10:45pm Book at Bedtime: Post Captain
> Patrick Malahide reads Patrick O'Brien's novel following the
> fortunes of Captain Jack Aubrey and his friend Dr Stephen
> Maturin in the Royal Navy of Nelson's time. It is 1802 and
> with peace declared, Aubrey's trade vanishes at a stroke.
> Meanwhile, Maturin's career blossoms as an Admiralty spy
> (1/10).
> ==
> Any date for the radio play ? (the BBC keep their schedules
> online as the above link shows)

The radio play was based on Master and Commander, not
Post Captain. I am sad enough to keep all my e-mails, and
a look in my archives tells me that the first episode in the
series was broadcast at 11pm on Thursday 6th April 1995. The
BBC's archives, however, don't seem to go back this far.

Best wishes,

Jane


Message c0afb61800A-3852-757-30.htm, number 5703, was posted on Wed Jul 19 at 12:37:31
in reply to c08ae15300A-3852-551-30.htm

Narwhal tusk ?-handedness

Bob Bridges, rhbridg@attglobal.net


I've always wondered about this:  Is left- and right-handedness calculated from the root or the tip?  (Likewise with mollusk shells.)

On Wed Jul 19, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>...there is a 3' tusk at the small, but fine Kendall Whaling Museum, located rather improbably in Sharon, MA, just off of I-95 between Boston and Providence.  The spirals on this one are a left-hand screw.  Does anyone know if all are like this, or are there some that are right-handed?


Message 4588233100A-9797-1107+59.htm, number 127194, was posted on Thu Oct 27 at 18:27:32
in reply to 44654cc700A-9797-75+59.htm

Trump blames it on the vast media conspiracy,

WTLL


Hillary blames it on Putin,

The Obama Administration blames it on the DoS against DYN, New Hampshire.

Sony blames it on the DPRK.

Lissuns blame it on Ledward, Wray, and the Duke of Habachsthal.


Message 4ca756ac8YV-9797-1248+59.htm, number 127195, was posted on Thu Oct 27 at 20:48:06
in reply to 44654cc700A-9797-75+59.htm

Huzzah!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


I had given up - we've never been down for so long before.

Glad to see you all again!

On Thu Oct 27, A-Polly wrote
----------------------------
>Yes indeed, Norton providers, thanks so much!

>I was worried there for a bit...
>
>
>On Wed Oct 26, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>. . for restoring this Forum, a haven of civilised conversation amid the cacophony of everyday life.

>>Just one thing: the elegant accents on my Pseudonym are mangled from Chrístõ into Chr�st�. If someone who understands these matters could fix this I'd been infinitely obliged to them.

>>I originally borrowed them from the conceptual artist Christo Vladimirov Javacheff but I now find he doesn't use them - a puzzle!


Message aeda067400A-9798-486-07.htm, number 127196, was posted on Fri Oct 28 at 08:05:59
The common Swift, a world class flyer

WTLL


d

Message 4ca756ac8YV-9798-816+58.htm, number 127197, was posted on Fri Oct 28 at 13:36:25
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9796-835-90.htm

Re: Thank you Nortons!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


I thought you had styled yourself after the Time Lord, who does.



On Wed Oct 26, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Just one thing: the elegant accents on my Pseudonym are mangled from Chrístõ into Chr�st�. If someone who understands these matters could fix this I'd been infinitely obliged to them.

>I originally borrowed them from the conceptual artist Christo Vladimirov Javacheff but I now find he doesn't use them - a puzzle!


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9798-823+06.htm, number 127198, was posted on Fri Oct 28 at 13:43:17
in reply to 93042441uJv-9797-633-07.htm

Welcome back, Peter!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Nice to see you here again.

Now if we can just get back Bo Bowman, Major Runyon and, let's see, Charlie Panasiewicz, that'd be even better.  I wouldn't mind seeing Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, too, but I gather I'm in the minority there.

On Thu Oct 27, Competent Tabloid Hack wrote
-------------------------------------------
>Yet one more wonderful site to distract me from the essentials of life. Again.


Message 180f41b400A-9798-1067+58.htm, number 127199, was posted on Fri Oct 28 at 17:47:08
in reply to 4ca756ac8YV-9798-816+58.htm

Re^2: Thank you Nortons!

UT Cazaly


On Fri Oct 28, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>I thought you had styled yourself after the Time Lord, who does.
>
>
>ing src = https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipPe3GFmnz7fQq0m0eA5agW7d6p8VxCGPbaR4jGo

Message 180f41b400A-9798-1069+58.htm, number 127200, was posted on Fri Oct 28 at 17:48:37
in reply to 180f41b400A-9798-1067+58.htm

Re^3: Thank you Nortons!

UT Cazaly


On Fri Oct 28, UT Cazaly wrote

no, no, don't tell me.  I'll figure out how to post images.


------------------------------
>On Fri Oct 28, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>I thought you had styled yourself after the Time Lord, who does.
>>
>>
>>ing src = https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipPe3GFmnz7fQq0m0eA5agW7d6p8VxCGPbaR4jGo


Message aeda019500A-9799-558-07.htm, number 127201, was posted on Sat Oct 29 at 09:18:16
Iceland's Pirate (Political) Party

WTLL


www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iceland-s-pirate-party-course-win-country-s-election-n673926

Message 4ca756ac8YV-9799-737+57.htm, number 127202, was posted on Sat Oct 29 at 12:17:45
in reply to 180f41b400A-9798-1069+58.htm

Re^4: Ok, but

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


1. - there's a typo - its iMg, not iNg

2. - you need to enclose the URL with quotation marks

3. - you need to remove the 's' after the 'http' - that 's' means 'secure' as in 'only
some people can view this website'  (This is what causes most of those hyperlinks to fail
when people are trying to share them -just remove the 's')


I prefer this group to the FB page, but it sure is easier for most people to post images there!
You're almost there....

On Fri Oct 28, UT Cazaly wrote
------------------------------
>On Fri Oct 28, UT Cazaly wrote

>no, no, don't tell me.  I'll figure out how to post images.
>
>
>------------------------------
>>On Fri Oct 28, akatow wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>I thought you had styled yourself after the Time Lord, who does.
>>>
>>>
>>>ing src = https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipPe3GFmnz7fQq0m0eA5agW7d6p8VxCGPbaR4jGo


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9799-766+57.htm, number 127203, was posted on Sat Oct 29 at 12:47:15
in reply to 4ca756ac8YV-9799-737+57.htm

The pedant speaks...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


2. I've discovered that the quote marks around the URL in <img> and <a> tags are not usually necessary.  As a programmer I always assume it's when there are spaces in the URL—that's when it's required in many non-HTML situations, after all—but that may not be right.

3. I may be wrong about this, but I've always thought that the difference between http and https is that the latter type of connection is encrypted—and if the server at the other end isn't prepared to deal with encryption then you won't get the desired reply.  But I'm on much shakier ground here.

On Sat Oct 29, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>1. - there's a typo - its iMg, not iNg

>2. - you need to enclose the URL with quotation marks

>3. - you need to remove the 's' after the 'http' - that 's' means 'secure' as in 'only
>some people can view this website'  (This is what causes most of those hyperlinks to fail
> when people are trying to share them -just remove the 's')

>I prefer this group to the FB page, but it sure is easier for most people to post images there!
>You're almost there....

>On Fri Oct 28, UT Cazaly wrote
>------------------------------
>>On Fri Oct 28, UT Cazaly wrote

>>no, no, don't tell me.  I'll figure out how to post images.

>>>On Fri Oct 28, akatow wrote
>>>---------------------------
>>>>I thought you had styled yourself after the Time Lord, who does.

>>>>ing src = https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipPe3GFmnz7fQq0m0eA5agW7d6p8VxCGPbaR4jGo


Message 4ca756ac8YV-9799-786+57.htm, number 127204, was posted on Sat Oct 29 at 13:05:53
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9799-766+57.htm

Re: The pedant speaks...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


I bow to your obviously superior knowledge base about the quotation marks - (but my experience has been different.)

Regarding the 's', whatever it stands for, the important part is that it needs to be removed for mass consumption.



On Sat Oct 29, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>2. I've discovered that the quote marks around the URL in <img> and <a> tags are not usually necessary.  As a programmer I always assume it's when there are spaces in the URL—that's when it's required in many non-HTML situations, after all—but that may not be right.

>3. I may be wrong about this, but I've always thought that the difference between http and https is that the latter type of connection is encrypted—and if the server at the other end isn't prepared to deal with encryption then you won't get the desired reply.  But I'm on much shakier ground here.

>On Sat Oct 29, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>1. - there's a typo - its iMg, not iNg

>>2. - you need to enclose the URL with quotation marks

>>3. - you need to remove the 's' after the 'http' - that 's' means 'secure' as in 'only
>>some people can view this website'  (This is what causes most of those hyperlinks to fail
>> when people are trying to share them -just remove the 's')

>>I prefer this group to the FB page, but it sure is easier for most people to post images there!
>>You're almost there....

>>On Fri Oct 28, UT Cazaly wrote
>>------------------------------
>>>On Fri Oct 28, UT Cazaly wrote

>>>no, no, don't tell me.  I'll figure out how to post images.

>>>>On Fri Oct 28, akatow wrote
>>>>---------------------------
>>>>>I thought you had styled yourself after the Time Lord, who does.

>>>>>ing src = https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipPe3GFmnz7fQq0m0eA5agW7d6p8VxCGPbaR4jGo


Message 43dc0491wd5-9799-1202-90.htm, number 127205, was posted on Sat Oct 29 at 20:01:55
Back from the breakers

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Rebuilt and undersail again!

When I clicked on POB icon in my toolbar and found a white blank I thought that the inevitable had happened. Norton ran out of money for funding our voyages.

I've resisted editing the icon in the hope that one day it would open again. Wow...today is the day!

Good to be aboard again,

Tom


Message 43dc0491wd5-9799-1203+57.htm, number 127206, was posted on Sat Oct 29 at 20:04:04
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9796-835-90.htm

Re: Thank you Nortons!

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Yes...thank you Norton for hosting.

Message 50e5a913p13-9800-385+59.htm, number 127207, was posted on Sun Oct 30 at 06:24:44
in reply to 43dc0491wd5-9799-1202-90.htm

A victim of a tidy-up?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Oct 29, Scourge's Housemate wrote
----------------------------------------
. . When I clicked on POB icon in my toolbar and found a white blank I thought that the inevitable had happened. Norton ran out of money for funding our voyages.

They can't have been worried about the cost: Ceilidh was paid for long ago and its developers are defunct; the traffic is light and the Forum is small so it costs nothing to host it in a corner of a larger site.

More likely it was swept out in a tidying up operation by some keen Young Person who, poor sap, knows not the Glory of the Canon.


Message 50e5a913p13-9800-503+59.htm, number 127207, was edited on Sun Oct 30 at 08:23:33
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9800-385+59.htm

A victim of a tidy-up?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Oct 29, Scourge's Housemate wrote
----------------------------------------
. . When I clicked on POB icon in my toolbar and found a white blank I thought that the inevitable had happened. Norton ran out of money for funding our voyages.

They can't have been worried about the cost: Ceilidh was paid for long ago and its developers are defunct; the traffic is light and the Forum is small so it costs nothing to host it in a corner of a larger site.

More likely it was swept out in a tidying up operation by some keen Young Person who, poor sap, knows not the Glory of the Canon.

[ This message was edited on Sun Oct 30 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9800-591+06.htm, number 127208, was posted on Sun Oct 30 at 09:51:44
in reply to aeda019500A-9799-558-07.htm

Iceland elections leave ruling centre-right party in driving seat,

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Oct 29, WTLL wrote
-------------------------
>www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iceland-s-pirate-party-course-win-country-s-election-n673926

Anti-establishment Pirate alliance falls short of majority as poll takes place amid discontent and desire for reform . . support for the anti-establishment Pirate party, while sharply up, fell below early expectations.

With all votes counted, the Pirates, founded four years ago by a group of activists, anarchists and former hackers, and their alliance of three left-of-centre parties held 27 seats – five short of a majority in the country’s 63-seat parliament. The centre-right Independence party won almost 30% of the vote, significantly more than the opinion polls had predicted, capturing a total of 29 seats with its coalition partner of the past three years, the Progressive party, whose share of the vote more than halved.

[www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/30/iceland-elections-ruling-centre-right-party-pirate-party]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9801-680-07.htm, number 127209, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 11:20:13
POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


In years to come, they are going to find those missing days of POB Forum emails on Anthony Weiner's laptop.

Demexit approaches! So little time and so much rejoining to do.


Boo-ha-ha-ha!

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9801-680+07.htm, number 127209, was edited on Mon Oct 31 at 11:21:06
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9801-680-07.htm

POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


In years to come, they are going to find those missing days of POB Forum emails on Anthony Weiner's laptop.

Demexit approaches! So little time and so much rejoicing to do.


Boo-ha-ha-ha!

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Oct 31 by the author ]


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9801-753+07.htm, number 127210, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 12:33:01
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9801-680+07.htm

Re: POB Forum, the missing emails

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Is it possible to ask why you think a Demexit likely without starting a discussion/quarrel on whether it's desirable?  I'm interested in the former only, just here.

On Mon Oct 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>In years to come, they are going to find those missing days of POB Forum emails on Anthony Weiner's laptop.

>Demexit approaches! So little time and so much rejoicing to do.

>Boo-ha-ha-ha!


Message 46d1c91300A-9801-768+07.htm, number 127211, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 12:48:04
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9801-680+07.htm

Re: POB Forum, the missing emails

Max


Must he be named Weiner, and, must it be a lap top?
A sense of dream like absurdity drenches this entire election.



On Mon Oct 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>In years to come, they are going to find those missing days of POB Forum emails on Anthony Weiner's laptop.

>Demexit approaches! So little time and so much rejoicing to do.
>
>
>Boo-ha-ha-ha!

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-9801-777-07.htm, number 127212, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 12:57:23
‘What are the ingredients of colcannon . . ’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘ . . an Irish dish eaten particularly at Hallowe'en?’ is today’s question from Oxford Reference;

Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199640249%2E013%2E0314


Message 182d66a00Nn-9801-790+07.htm, number 127213, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 13:09:50
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9801-753+07.htm

Re^2: POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Mon Oct 31, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Is it possible to ask why you think a Demexit likely without starting a discussion/quarrel on whether it's desirable?  I'm interested in the former only, just here.

I'm just willing to take Cher, Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand, Bruce Springsteen and the rest of Hollywood at their word.  You take them at their word, do you?

I have to say I can't imagine any of them living for long in Canada or New Zealand out of the limelight.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9801-798+07.htm, number 127214, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 13:18:31
in reply to 46d1c91300A-9801-768+07.htm

Re^2: POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Mon Oct 31, Max wrote
------------------------
>Must he be named Weiner, and, must it be a lap top?
>A sense of dream like absurdity drenches this entire election.
>
>
>


No necessity that there be Weiner and Abedin participation, other than the irony intensifies and the time is short.  I suspect Weiner and Abedin will flip if they're allowed to live that long.

Colin Powell had the right word for Hillary, "hubris" but it was evident since Watergate.

If the last year had been submitted to you two years ago as a movie proposal, you couldn't have sold it.

I can hear agents screaming for a twist at the end such as "let her win" and then let her be popularly deadlocked.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9801-802+07.htm, number 127213, was edited on Mon Oct 31 at 13:21:56
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9801-790+07.htm

Re^2: POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Mon Oct 31, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Is it possible to ask why you think a Demexit likely without starting a discussion/quarrel on whether it's desirable?  I'm interested in the former only, just here.

I'm just willing to take Lena Denham, Rosie O'Donnell, Whoopi Goldberg, Cher, Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand, Bruce Springsteen I think that's the list of usual suspects) and the rest of Hollywood at their word.  You take them at their word, do you?

I have to say I can't imagine any of them living for long in Canada or New Zealand out of the limelight.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Oct 31 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9801-803+07.htm, number 127213, was edited on Mon Oct 31 at 13:23:19
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9801-802+07.htm

Re^2: POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Mon Oct 31, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Is it possible to ask why you think a Demexit likely without starting a discussion/quarrel on whether it's desirable?  I'm interested in the former only, just here.

I'm just willing to take Lena Denham, Rosie O'Donnell, Whoopi Goldberg, Cher, Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand, Bruce Springsteen (I think that's close to the list of usual chestbeating suspects) and the rest of Hollywood at their word.  You take them at their word, do you?

I have to say I can't imagine any of them living for long in Canada or New Zealand out of the limelight.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Oct 31 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9801-817+07.htm, number 127213, was edited on Mon Oct 31 at 13:37:24
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9801-803+07.htm

Re^2: POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Mon Oct 31, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Is it possible to ask why you think a Demexit likely without starting a discussion/quarrel on whether it's desirable?  I'm interested in the former only, just here.

I'm just willing to take Lena Denham, Rosie O'Donnell, Whoopi Goldberg, Cher, Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand, Bruce Springsteen (I think that's close to the list of usual chestbeating suspects) and the rest of Hollywood at their word.  You do take them at their word, don't you?

I have to say I can't imagine any of them living for long in Canada or New Zealand out of the limelight.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Oct 31 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9801-820+07.htm, number 127214, was edited on Mon Oct 31 at 13:40:28
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9801-798+07.htm

Re^2: POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Mon Oct 31, Max wrote
------------------------
>Must he be named Weiner, and, must it be a lap top?
>A sense of dream like absurdity drenches this entire election.
>
>
>


No necessity that there be Weiner and Abedin participation, other than the irony intensifies and the time is short.  I suspect Weiner and Abedin will flip if they're allowed to live that long. I can't imagine why they'd trifle with the POB Forum, but there's been so much that's been done "because they could" and they may have assumed the denizens of the Forum have an underlying dislike of tyrants who don't respect borders.

Colin Powell had the right word for Hillary, "hubris" but it was evident since Watergate.

If the last year had been submitted to you two years ago as a movie proposal, you couldn't have sold it.

I can hear agents screaming for a twist at the end such as "let her win" and then let her be popularly deadlocked.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Oct 31 by the author ]


Message 4981ca22cZn-9801-884+07.htm, number 127215, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 14:44:56
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9801-820+07.htm

Re^3: POB Forum, the missing emails

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


On Mon Oct 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote (snip)
---------------------------------
>Colin Powell had the right word for Hillary, "hubris" but it was evident since Watergate.


Colin Powell, who will vole for Hillary, also said:

But at least Hillary Clinton knows what “hubris” means. Donald Trump probably thinks it’s a Jewish ritual.

Would I prefer not to vote for her? Yes, obviously.

Would I prefer that the Republican nominee were not a nightmare hobgoblin who came to prominence at the head of a creepy racist movement? Yes, obviously.

And a lot more.




Message 182d66a00Nn-9801-954+07.htm, number 127216, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 15:54:24
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9801-884+07.htm

Re^4: POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Mon Oct 31, Mark Henry wrote
-------------------------------
>On Mon Oct 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote (snip)
>---------------------------------
>>Colin Powell had the right word for Hillary, "hubris" but it was evident since Watergate.
>
>
>Colin Powell, who will vole for Hillary, also said:

>But at least Hillary Clinton knows what “hubris” means. Donald Trump probably thinks it’s a Jewish ritual.

>Would I prefer not to vote for her? Yes, obviously.

>Would I prefer that the Republican nominee were not a nightmare hobgoblin who came to prominence at the head of a creepy racist movement? Yes, obviously.

>And a lot more.
>
>


Creepy, racist movement for not wanting open borders?

For a moment think of the instant benefits to a Trump triumph.

hotair.com/archives/2016/10/31/survey-35-federal-workers-may-consider-leaving-jobs-trump-wins/

r,

Caltrop


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9801-988+07.htm, number 127217, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 16:28:31
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9801-954+07.htm

Re^5: POB Forum, the missing emails

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Come, Captain, do you really think Colin Powell means it's creepy and racist to want borders to be controled?

Do you think Mr Henry thinks Powell means that?

If not, then you attributed motives that you know to be imaginary.  This forum has endured manic cycles election seasons in years past and I've seen you do better than that.  Say what you really think....but you have to think, first.

On Mon Oct 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>Creepy, racist movement for not wanting open borders?

>On Mon Oct 31, Mark Henry wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Colin Powell, who will vole for Hillary, also said:

>>But at least Hillary Clinton knows what “hubris” means. Donald Trump probably thinks it’s a Jewish ritual.

>>Would I prefer not to vote for her? Yes, obviously.

>>Would I prefer that the Republican nominee were not a nightmare hobgoblin who came to prominence at the head of a creepy racist movement? Yes, obviously.

>>And a lot more.

>>On Mon Oct 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote (snip)
>>---------------------------------
>>>Colin Powell had the right word for Hillary, "hubris" but it was evident since Watergate.


Message 182d66a00Nn-9801-1031+07.htm, number 127218, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 17:11:17
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9801-988+07.htm

Re^6: POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Mon Oct 31, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Come, Captain, do you really think Colin Powell means it's creepy and racist to want borders to be controled?

>Do you think Mr Henry thinks Powell means that?

I don't remember Colin Powell saying that. If he did, he did.

I was under the believe that Mark Henry was talking about his druthers when he said:

>>>Would I prefer that the Republican nominee were not a nightmare hobgoblin who came to prominence at the head of a creepy racist movement? Yes, obviously.

Since I've never heard, or see reported, that Donald Trump has said anything "racist" and when I ask about it here in this blueist of blue states, I'm told that the immigration issue is "racist" and therefore Trump is "racist."   I have to believe controlled borders is the basis for that allegation.  That is where I've seen that characterization. That is part of his platform.

Enlighten me. The words "creepy racist movement" are in the posting. What have I misunderstood?  Am I being taken to task for someone else's description of what he finds objectionable and what I question?

Is there some other point you wish to make?

So what is your point?

I enjoy Mark Henry contributions, but I can question a phrase he uses.  I'm not entirely sure why he uses it.  There are no emoticons indicating he's being ironic.  One good thing about this forum is emoticons are minimal.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9801-1034+07.htm, number 127218, was edited on Mon Oct 31 at 17:14:59
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9801-1031+07.htm

Re^6: POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Mon Oct 31, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Come, Captain, do you really think Colin Powell means it's creepy and racist to want borders to be controled?

>Do you think Mr Henry thinks Powell means that?

I don't remember Colin Powell saying that. If he did, he did.

I was under the belief that Mark Henry was talking about his druthers when he said:

>>>Would I prefer that the Republican nominee were not a nightmare hobgoblin who came to prominence at the head of a creepy racist movement? Yes, obviously.

Since I've never heard, or seen reported, that Donald Trump has said anything "racist" and when I ask about it here in this blueist of blue states, I'm told that the immigration issue is "racist" and therefore Trump is "racist."   I have to believe controlled borders is the basis for that allegation.  That is where I've seen that characterization. That is part of his platform.

Enlighten me. The words "creepy racist movement" are in the posting. What have I misunderstood?  Am I being taken to task for someone else's description of what he finds objectionable and what I question?

Is there some other point you wish to make?

So what is your point?

I enjoy Mark Henry contributions, but I can question a phrase he uses.  I'm not entirely sure why he uses it.  There are no emoticons indicating he's being ironic.  One good thing about this forum is emoticons are minimal.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Oct 31 by the author ]


Message 46d1c91300A-9801-1042+07.htm, number 127219, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 17:22:22
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9801-988+07.htm

Re^6: POB Forum, the missing emails

Max



Bob, you can't bemoan the absence of the wacky fringe trolls and then seek to curtail Caltrop.
There's only a week to go before the election. Not enough time for things to get really out of hand.


n Mon Oct 31, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Come, Captain, do you really think Colin Powell means it's creepy and racist to want borders to be controled?

>Do you think Mr Henry thinks Powell means that?

>If not, then you attributed motives that you know to be imaginary.  This forum has endured manic cycles election seasons in years past and I've seen you do better than that.  Say what you really think....but you have to think, first.

>On Mon Oct 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>---------------------------------
>>Creepy, racist movement for not wanting open borders?

>>On Mon Oct 31, Mark Henry wrote
>>-------------------------------
>>>Colin Powell, who will vole for Hillary, also said:

>>>But at least Hillary Clinton knows what “hubris” means. Donald Trump probably thinks it’s a Jewish ritual.

>>>Would I prefer not to vote for her? Yes, obviously.

>>>Would I prefer that the Republican nominee were not a nightmare hobgoblin who came to prominence at the head of a creepy racist movement? Yes, obviously.

>>>And a lot more.

>>>On Mon Oct 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote (snip)
>>>---------------------------------
>>>>Colin Powell had the right word for Hillary, "hubris" but it was evident since Watergate.


Message 4abe5e3600A-9801-1190+07.htm, number 127220, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 19:50:30
in reply to 46d1c91300A-9801-1042+07.htm

Re^7: POB Forum, the missing emails

YA


Jeezus  man, don't jinx it!




On Mon Oct 31, Max wrote
------------------------

>There's only a week to go before the election. Not enough time for things to get really out of hand.


Message 46d1c91300A-9801-1323+07.htm, number 127221, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 22:02:54
in reply to 4abe5e3600A-9801-1190+07.htm

Re^8: POB Forum, the missing emails

Max


Well, it is Halloween. Mmwwwahah



n Mon Oct 31, YA wrote
-----------------------
>Jeezus  man, don't jinx it!
>
>
>
>
>On Mon Oct 31, Max wrote
>------------------------

>>There's only a week to go before the election. Not enough time for things to get really out of hand.
>


Message 46d1c91300A-9801-1336-30.htm, number 127222, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 22:15:47
America politics question

Max


For my entire life Republicans have stood for free trade. Right or wrong, popular or unpopular...free trade.
Suddenly, the oddly colored, orange?,  Presidential Candidate is campaigning on a platform of from the top down trade restrictions.
When did this happen?
Next question: when did the repubs get so chummy with Russia? Repubs hate Russia. Always have. When did Putin become a party roll model?

Should I have watched the primary debates? Clearly I have missed some real changes.


Message 4981ca22cZn-9801-1360+07.htm, number 127223, was posted on Mon Oct 31 at 22:41:47
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9801-1034+07.htm

Re^7: POB Forum, the missing emails

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


I sincerely apologize for my above post.  I was searching for Colin Powell's statements about Hillary's hubris and Donald's racism (to provide a balanced post) and came across an opinion piece from the New Haven Register that included some Powell quotes and mistakenly took some of the writer's remarks as Powell's.  ("Nightmare hobgoblin," indeed.)

In any case, what I was trying to say is that, in spite of Powell's poor opinion of some of Hillary's actions, and her hubris, he will vote for her.  Furthermore, he believes that Donald is a racist as can be seen in the below quote from the Wall Street Journal -- selected because no one can accuse this newspaper as being liberal.

In another message, Mr. Powell said that Mr. Trump was responsible for a “racist” effort to show that President Barack Obama wasn’t born in the U.S. Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii to an American mother and a Kenyan father, but a popular conspiracy theory stoked in part by Mr. Trump asserted he was born abroad and could be ineligible for the presidency.  Mr. Trump “can never overcome what he tried to do to Obama with his search for the birth certificate…the whole birther movement was racist,” Mr. Powell wrote.

Here's another prominent Republican's opinion, from June:

House Speaker Paul Ryan ripped Donald Trump's recent remarks saying a judge presiding over a lawsuit involving his business was biased because of his Mexican heritage as "the textbook definition of a racist comment."

So, when the CAPT writes, "Since I've never heard, or seen reported, that Donald Trump has said anything 'racist'," I'm wondering where he's been for for the past year, where there is no coverage of US politics.

Anyway, I am well aware that the CAPT is a conservative and, whether I agree with him or not, he usually presents well reasoned arguements for his cause.  I sympathize with him this election cycle because conservatism seems to have lost its way.



On Mon Oct 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>On Mon Oct 31, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Come, Captain, do you really think Colin Powell means it's creepy and racist to want borders to be controled?

>>Do you think Mr Henry thinks Powell means that?

>I don't remember Colin Powell saying that. If he did, he did.

>I was under the belief that Mark Henry was talking about his druthers when he said:

>>>>Would I prefer that the Republican nominee were not a nightmare hobgoblin who came to prominence at the head of a creepy racist movement? Yes, obviously.

>Since I've never heard, or seen reported, that Donald Trump has said anything "racist" and when I ask about it here in this blueist of blue states, I'm told that the immigration issue is "racist" and therefore Trump is "racist."   I have to believe controlled borders is the basis for that allegation.  That is where I've seen that characterization. That is part of his platform.

>Enlighten me. The words "creepy racist movement" are in the posting. What have I misunderstood?  Am I being taken to task for someone else's description of what he finds objectionable and what I question?

>Is there some other point you wish to make?

>So what is your point?

>I enjoy Mark Henry contributions, but I can question a phrase he uses.  I'm not entirely sure why he uses it.  There are no emoticons indicating he's being ironic.  One good thing about this forum is emoticons are minimal.

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9802-593+06.htm, number 127224, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 09:53:19
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9801-1360+07.htm

Re^8: POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Mark:

So questioning someone's birth certificate's birthplace notation is unquestionably "racist?"  How does birthplace impact race?  Would it change Obama's race somehow?  

So believing someone else is being racist in dealing with a legal matter makes the decrier unquestionably "racist?"  So claiming someone is potentially acting in a racist fashion makes the complaining party racist.  Is claiming the Wikileaks emails have Russian origins a racist claim.  By the way, Mexican is a nationality, not a race.

If I were challenging the appointment of a judge from Munich to hear my case to be tried in the Hague in 1939, I would challenge that judge because he was a German nominated by a government that espoused certain policies, not because he was an Aryan. (There are Aryans who are not German or Austrian, I believe.)

I can't say I'm convinced that those examples are conclusive indications of a "racist" bias, surely not a bias to reach the heinous level of "creepy."

But I at least know now, what you think you know and on what basis.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9802-597+06.htm, number 127224, was edited on Tue Nov 1 at 09:57:08
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9802-593+06.htm

Re^8: POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Mark:

So questioning someone's birth certificate's birthplace notation is unquestionably "racist?"  How does birthplace impact race?  Would it change Obama's race somehow?  

So believing someone else is being racist in dealing with a legal matter makes the decrier unquestionably "racist?"  So claiming someone is potentially acting in a racist fashion makes the complaining party racist.  Is claiming the Wikileaks emails have Russian origins a racist claim? When did sovereignty establish a new race? Mexican is a nationality, not a race.

If I were challenging the appointment of a judge from Munich to hear my case to be tried in the Hague in 1939, I would challenge that judge because he was a German nominated by a government that espoused certain policies, not because he was an Aryan. (There are Aryans who are not German or Austrian, I believe.)

I can't say I'm convinced that those examples are conclusive indications of a "racist" bias, surely not a bias to reach the heinous level of "creepy."

But I at least know now, what you think you know and on what basis.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Tue Nov 1 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9802-606+06.htm, number 127224, was edited on Tue Nov 1 at 10:05:58
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9802-597+06.htm

Re^8: POB Forum, the missing emails

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Mark:

So questioning someone's birth certificate's birthplace notation is unquestionably "racist?"  How does birthplace impact race?  Would it change Obama's race somehow?  

So believing someone else is being racist in dealing with a legal matter makes the decrier unquestionably "racist?"  So claiming someone is potentially acting in a racist fashion makes the complaining party racist.  Is claiming the Wikileaks emails have Russian origins a racist claim? When did sovereignty establish a new race? Mexican is a nationality, not a race.

If I were challenging the appointment of a judge from Munich to hear my case to be tried in the Hague in 1939, I would challenge that judge because he was a German nominated by a government that espoused certain policies, not because he was an Aryan. (There are Aryans who are not German or Austrian, I believe.)

I can't say I'm convinced that those examples are conclusive indications of a "racist" bias, surely not a bias to reach the heinous level of "creepy."

But I at least know now, what you think you know and on what basis.  Beware of adamant conclusions based on very, very loose definitions.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Tue Nov 1 by the author ]


Message 55ffedbfcb5-9802-616+1d.htm, number 127225, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 10:16:27
in reply to 46d1c91300A-9801-1336-30.htm

Re: America politics question

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


Trump's base consists of people who neither know nor care anything about what's outside the USA's borders, apart from the military. To the extent that he can be said to have a policy of his own, he's an isolationist because they are. They're also people whose manufacturing jobs went overseas, and they're not happy about that.

Message 46d1c41c00A-9802-712+1d.htm, number 127226, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 11:52:17
in reply to 55ffedbfcb5-9802-616+1d.htm

Re^2: America politics question

Max


Frenchy, I understand his support base. They have been around forever.
My question is when did the Republican Party abandon its basic identity as the free trade/small government party?
There is a momentum to institutions. The habit of voting for the party of your loyalty will carry 200 electoral votes to anybody backed by the party. Even an ape like Trump.
But then it's over. It doesn't happen twice.
So, why did the party of Lincoln,Eisenhower and Reagan decide to commit suicide?





On Tue Nov 1, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------
>Trump's base consists of people who neither know nor care anything about what's outside the USA's borders, apart from the military. To the extent that he can be said to have a policy of his own, he's an isolationist because they are. They're also people whose manufacturing jobs went overseas, and they're not happy about that.

Message 4747fb3e8HW-9802-822+06.htm, number 127227, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 13:42:25
in reply to 46d1c91300A-9801-1042+07.htm

Re^7: POB Forum, the missing emails

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I wondered whether anyone would call me on that :-).  But I guess I expected more from Caltrop.  Now to be more explicit to him....

On Mon Oct 31, Max wrote
------------------------
>Bob, you can't bemoan the absence of the wacky fringe trolls and then seek to curtail Caltrop.
>There's only a week to go before the election. Not enough time for things to get really out of hand.

>n Mon Oct 31, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Come, Captain, do you really think Colin Powell means it's creepy and racist to want borders to be controled?

>>Do you think Mr Henry thinks Powell means that?

>>If not, then you attributed motives that you know to be imaginary.  This forum has endured manic cycles election seasons in years past and I've seen you do better than that.  Say what you really think....but you have to think, first.

>>On Mon Oct 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>>---------------------------------
>>>Creepy, racist movement for not wanting open borders?

>>>On Mon Oct 31, Mark Henry wrote
>>>-------------------------------
>>>>Colin Powell, who will vole for Hillary, also said:

>>>>But at least Hillary Clinton knows what “hubris” means. Donald Trump probably thinks it’s a Jewish ritual.

>>>>Would I prefer not to vote for her? Yes, obviously.

>>>>Would I prefer that the Republican nominee were not a nightmare hobgoblin who came to prominence at the head of a creepy racist movement? Yes, obviously.

>>>>And a lot more.

>>>>On Mon Oct 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote (snip)
>>>>---------------------------------
>>>>>Colin Powell had the right word for Hillary, "hubris" but it was evident since Watergate.


Message 4981ca22cZn-9802-875+06.htm, number 127228, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 14:35:24
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9802-606+06.htm

Re^9: POB Forum, the missing emails

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


CAPT,

Early in this thread, you introduced Colin Powell's criticism of Hillary.  Assuming that you respect Powell's opinions on political matters, I noted that Powell also believes Donald to be a racist (and, also, that he intends to vote for Hillary).  My personal opinion was not stated.

I later noted that another prominent, supposedly conservative, Republican considered Donald's statement about a judge to be racist -- his opinion, not mine.  

If you want to argue, as you have attempted to do below, about whether Donald's actions/statements are or are not racist, please contact Secretary Powell and House Speaker Ryan -- among others, because the list of "racist" attributions is quite long.

v/r

Mark


On Tue Nov 1, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
>Mark:

>So questioning someone's birth certificate's birthplace notation is unquestionably "racist?"  How does birthplace impact race?  Would it change Obama's race somehow?  

>So believing someone else is being racist in dealing with a legal matter makes the decrier unquestionably "racist?"  So claiming someone is potentially acting in a racist fashion makes the complaining party racist.  Is claiming the Wikileaks emails have Russian origins a racist claim? When did sovereignty establish a new race? Mexican is a nationality, not a race.

>If I were challenging the appointment of a judge from Munich to hear my case to be tried in the Hague in 1939, I would challenge that judge because he was a German nominated by a government that espoused certain policies, not because he was an Aryan. (There are Aryans who are not German or Austrian, I believe.)

>I can't say I'm convinced that those examples are conclusive indications of a "racist" bias, surely not a bias to reach the heinous level of "creepy."

>But I at least know now, what you think you know and on what basis.  Beware of adamant conclusions based on very, very loose definitions.

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 602421f200A-9802-903-30.htm, number 127229, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 15:03:19
So now you know

Beached


To clarify certain words for the benefit of all: if a black is criticized it is racist.  If a woman is criticized it is sexist. Please use those terms as frequently as possible in all situations, as it is quite enlightening in any discussion.

Let the rage continue, I stand down.


Message 46d1c41c00A-9802-995-30.htm, number 127230, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 16:35:24
My long held personal opinion of Trump based on personal interaction

Max


My personal opinion based entirely on a series of interactions with Trump over a period of 25 years is that he is a contemptible, childish, somewhat stupid man whose greed and lack of morals renders him unfit for public office.
What sets him apart from other greedy blood suckers is his total lack of moderation or tone.
I say this having, personally, seen him in a variety of settings where he was either attacking Native Americans or ass licking them to do a deal (where he would have cheated them).
That said, everyone else is entitled to their opinion and vote.

Message aeda87e400A-9802-1030+1d.htm, number 127231, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 17:10:42
in reply to 46d1c41c00A-9802-712+1d.htm

Re^3: America politics question

WTLL


So, why did the party of Lincoln,Eisenhower and Reagan decide to commit suicide?

Lincoln's party died at the Cow Palace in '64 when Goldwater turned hard right and all the African Americans bolted for the door and saw Bobby Kennedy waving them over.

Eisenhower's party died when Kennedy/Johnson co-opted the Eastern Elite Establishment to try and run the World on Scientific/Management terms of American Exceptionalism (see: Vietnam). (That and Dick Nixon brought "Five Family" levels of criminal mischief to the Oval Office).

Reagan's party died when Bill Clinton kicked the Dem's to the Right Center (or Center Right) and took the high ground on; keeping wars small, budget surplus as a good thing, and free(er) trade.

The current gas filled corpse was set in motion by Bush, Jr's reliance on the Neo-Cons for preventative war, budget deficits that even Tip O'Neil and Ronald Reagan couldn't imagine, and dumping the Reagan Democrats in favor of Government Sachs.

The puncture of the rotting corpse and rushing escape of noxious gasses was perpetrated by the 24 hour news media's fixation on ratings ginned up by a short fingered, vulgarian, 7th grade bully who never grew up and never offered anything substantive beyond walls, hate, Populism writ Facism, and boasting about his manhood, popularity, name recognition, and equating "success" with sacrifice.    The proof is in the statement early on that he could shoot someone in the middle of the street and get away with it....

I held my nose and wrote in a candidate and focused on the down ballot races and State Constitutional Amendments.

We still have lines half way around the building in the heat of people trying to get in and vote.

As Jeremy Clarkson opined, "320 million people and this is the best you have?"


Message 46d1c41c00A-9802-1064+1d.htm, number 127232, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 17:44:30
in reply to aeda87e400A-9802-1030+1d.htm

Re^4: America politics question

Max


So, in a nutshell, this election is the Republican Zombie Apocalypse:)


Tue Nov 1, WTLL wrote
------------------------
>So, why did the party of Lincoln,Eisenhower and Reagan decide to commit suicide?

>Lincoln's party died at the Cow Palace in '64 when Goldwater turned hard right and all the African Americans bolted for the door and saw Bobby Kennedy waving them over.

>Eisenhower's party died when Kennedy/Johnson co-opted the Eastern Elite Establishment to try and run the World on Scientific/Management terms of American Exceptionalism (see: Vietnam). (That and Dick Nixon brought "Five Family" levels of criminal mischief to the Oval Office).

>Reagan's party died when Bill Clinton kicked the Dem's to the Right Center (or Center Right) and took the high ground on; keeping wars small, budget surplus as a good thing, and free(er) trade.

>The current gas filled corpse was set in motion by Bush, Jr's reliance on the Neo-Cons for preventative war, budget deficits that even Tip O'Neil and Ronald Reagan couldn't imagine, and dumping the Reagan Democrats in favor of Government Sachs.

>The puncture of the rotting corpse and rushing escape of noxious gasses was perpetrated by the 24 hour news media's fixation on ratings ginned up by a short fingered, vulgarian, 7th grade bully who never grew up and never offered anything substantive beyond walls, hate, Populism writ Facism, and boasting about his manhood, popularity, name recognition, and equating "success" with sacrifice.    The proof is in the statement early on that he could shoot someone in the middle of the street and get away with it....

>I held my nose and wrote in a candidate and focused on the down ballot races and State Constitutional Amendments.

>We still have lines half way around the building in the heat of people trying to get in and vote.

>As Jeremy Clarkson opined, "320 million people and this is the best you have?"
>


Message 182d66a00Nn-9802-1093+06.htm, number 127233, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 18:13:36
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9802-875+06.htm

Oh I see

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Tue Nov 1, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>CAPT,

>Early in this thread, you introduced Colin Powell's criticism of Hillary.  Assuming that you respect Powell's opinions on political matters, I noted that Powell also believes Donald to be a racist (and, also, that he intends to vote for Hillary).  My personal opinion was not stated.

>I later noted that another prominent, supposedly conservative, Republican considered Donald's statement about a judge to be racist -- his opinion, not mine.  

>If you want to argue, as you have attempted to do below, about whether Donald's actions/statements are or are not racist, please contact Secretary Powell and House Speaker Ryan -- among others, because the list of "racist" attributions is quite long.

>v/r

>Mark
>
>
>On Tue Nov 1, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Mark:


Mark:

Ah, those other attributions are too voluminous and lengthy to describe or provide yourself, and, I suppose, they are common knowledge, i.e., widely accepted by the POB coterie.

I would have thought you would have lead with your too strongest examples that he was a racist.  I guess those other attributions will knock me over when I can find them.

Powell and Ryan you say?

I do have problems taken the opinions of politicians (flag officers are a type of politician, you know) and I would have preferred direct statements by impartial witnesses made reasonably close to the time of occurrence would have been so much more convincing.

Anyway the election approaches. Which state will experience a greater amount of voter fraud do you think, Illinois or Virginia?  Here in Connecticut it is rampant in the large cities, but we don't swing many electoral votes.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9802-1124+1d.htm, number 127234, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 18:44:12
in reply to 46d1c41c00A-9802-1064+1d.htm

Yes, Max, there is a Republic Party. But you can't just read the NYT...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


It started when McCain was asked if he thought Obama was a socialist and McCain couldn't bring himself to say "yes" because that would be too ungentlemanly. Those Republicans in Washingon had been there too long and failed to see Obama wasn't going to play by the rules they knew.

It started when Obama bugged out of Iraq and telegraphed he'd be pulling out of Afghanistan after we had won in Iraq and brought things to a simmer in Afghanistan.  He believed, he claimed that wars never accomplished anything and what better way to prove that than to sabotage. He further sabotaged national security with a budget deal that slowly cut down the military to pre-WW2 levels.

It started when the public began to realize we were paying incredible amounts to countries like Iran, we were spending incredible amounts toward the care and feeding of illegals, and illegals were displacing the tax payers in the job market.

Historically, one other plank of Republicanism was fiscal responsibility.  The Obama administration has doubled the national debt and coddles anyone anywhere, other than American citizens makes American citizens pay for this as it pushes those same Americans out of jobs.

Yes, fair trade was historically a Republican plank.  Globalism and free trade made sense until we started to take on impossible tasks beyond trade and take on impossible burdens of charity and while other countries start playing currency games and raiding our defense and computer proprietary knowledge. It is fine until you see your country crashing down around you hastened by executive actions that persistently spend more than the country can afford and exceed the traditional balance of checks and balances. Veterans don't get the level of care and support that illegals and refugees do.  Who administers all this? Big Government being paternal.

The Party of Lincoln still stands for minimal government, fiscal responsibility, strong national security, and adherence to the Constitution.  Trouble is Max, you've been living to long in the Elite echo chamber run by a bunch of 27 year old reporters, as Ben Rhodes has told, who don't know a thing, and have learned to swallow whole cloth any press release Big Government has given them.

Next Tuesday no matter what, you'll see that the Republican party is not dead, but it is changing its tactics and realigning its base.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9802-1137+1d.htm, number 127234, was edited on Tue Nov 1 at 18:57:04
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9802-1124+1d.htm

Yes, Max, there is a Republican Party. But you can't just read the NYT and watch MSNBC exclusively...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


It started when McCain was asked if he thought Obama was a socialist and McCain couldn't bring himself to say "yes" because that would be too ungentlemanly. Those Republicans in Washingon had been there too long and failed to see Obama wasn't going to play by the rules they knew.

It started when Obama bugged out of Iraq and telegraphed he'd be pulling out of Afghanistan after we had won in Iraq and brought things to a simmer in Afghanistan.  He believed, he claimed that wars never accomplished anything and what better way to prove that than to sabotage. He further sabotaged national security with a budget deal that slowly cut down the military to pre-WW2 levels.

It started when the public began to realize we were paying incredible amounts to countries like Iran, we were spending incredible amounts toward the care and feeding of illegals, and illegals were displacing the tax payers in the job market.

Historically, one other plank of Republicanism was fiscal responsibility.  The Obama administration has doubled the national debt and coddles anyone anywhere, other than American citizens makes American citizens pay for this as it pushes those same Americans out of jobs.

Yes, fair trade was historically a Republican plank.  Globalism and free trade made sense until we started to take on impossible tasks beyond trade and take on impossible burdens of charity and while other countries start playing currency games and raiding our defense and computer proprietary knowledge. It is fine until you see your country crashing down around you hastened by executive actions that persistently spend more than the country can afford and exceed the traditional balance of checks and balances. Veterans don't get the level of care and support that illegals and refugees do.  Who administers all this? Big Government being paternal.

The Party of Lincoln still stands for minimal government, fiscal responsibility, strong national security, and adherence to the Constitution.  Trouble is Max, you've been living to long in the Elite echo chamber run by a bunch of 27 year old reporters, as Ben Rhodes has told, who don't know a thing, and have learned to swallow whole cloth any press release Big Government has given them.

Next Tuesday no matter what, you'll see that the Republican party is not dead, but it is changing its tactics and realigning its base.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Tue Nov 1 by the author ]


Message 4981ca22cZn-9802-1136+06.htm, number 127235, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 18:57:27
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9802-1093+06.htm

Re: Oh I see

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


On Tue Nov 1, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
>On Tue Nov 1, Mark Henry wrote
>------------------------------
>>CAPT,

>>Early in this thread, you introduced Colin Powell's criticism of Hillary.  Assuming that you respect Powell's opinions on political matters, I noted that Powell also believes Donald to be a racist (and, also, that he intends to vote for Hillary).  My personal opinion was not stated.

>>I later noted that another prominent, supposedly conservative, Republican considered Donald's statement about a judge to be racist -- his opinion, not mine.  

>>If you want to argue, as you have attempted to do below, about whether Donald's actions/statements are or are not racist, please contact Secretary Powell and House Speaker Ryan -- among others, because the list of "racist" attributions is quite long.

>>v/r

>>Mark
>>
>>
>>On Tue Nov 1, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>Mark:
>
>
>Mark:

>Ah, those other attributions are too voluminous and lengthy to describe or provide yourself, and, I suppose, they are common knowledge, i.e., widely accepted by the POB coterie.

>I would have thought you would have lead with your two strongest examples that he was a racist.  I guess those other attributions will knock me over when I can find them.

>Powell and Ryan you say?

>I do have problems taken the opinions of politicians (flag officers are a type of politician, you know) and I would have preferred direct statements by impartial witnesses made reasonably close to the time of occurrence would have been so much more convincing.

>Anyway the election approaches. Which state will experience a greater amount of voter fraud do you think, Illinois or Virginia?  Here in Connecticut it is rampant in the large cities, but we don't swing many electoral votes.

>r,

>Caltrop


CAPT,

Re Trump's racism, you now "have problems taken the opinions of politicians" [Powell and Ryan].  You didn't have a problem with Powell re Hillary's hubris (with which I agree), which started this whole conversation.  

I was hoping to end the discussion but you asked for further examples:

fortune.com/2016/06/07/donald-trump-racism-quotes/

www.nytimes.com/2016/07/24/opinion/sunday/is-donald-trump-a-racist.html

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83

www.snopes.com/donald-trump-racist-meme/

www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-donald-trump-blacks-racist-20160928-story.html

Just Google "donald trump racist incidents" for more.

v/r

Mark


Message 182d66a00Nn-9802-1177+1e.htm, number 127236, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 19:37:14
in reply to 46d1c41c00A-9802-995-30.htm

Thank you for sharing

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


With all that off your chest, tell you what you found simply precious about Hillary.

Was it her performance hiding exculpatory exhibits on Watergate?

Her resetting the button with the USSR?

Her selling influence to sheikhs and sultans through her tax deductible charitable foundation?

Her ability to pack them in a stadiums?

Her bullying her husband's victims?

My personal favorite was her leaving men to die at Benghazi and claiming it was all about a video? That was simply precious.

Max, were you ever really a Republican?

r,

Caltrop




Message 182d66a00Nn-9802-1185+06.htm, number 127237, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 19:45:23
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9802-1136+06.htm

Re^2: Oh I see

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


New York Times, Huffington Post, Chicago Herald...

All exemplars of non-partisan journalism.

Genuine thanks for providing cites.

r,

Caltrop


Message 46d1c41c00A-9802-1276+1e.htm, number 127238, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 21:15:48
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9802-1177+1e.htm

I never met Hillary

Max



I missed her,and Bill, at law school by 2 years. I never met her. I do not find her to be a compelling candidate.
If Romney or, a younger, McCain was running I'd vote for them. if Colin Powell were running I'd go door to door.
I find Trump to be the least qualified candidate since the dems ran Edwards. Yes, I am including Sarah Palin.
If expressing that opinion means that I have to suffer a personal attack then so be it.
Maybe after 8 years of Hillary some major party will be willing to run someone for office that believes in small government and free trade.


On Tue Nov 1, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
>With all that off your chest, tell you what you found simply precious about Hillary.

>Was it her performance hiding exculpatory exhibits on Watergate?

>Her resetting the button with the USSR?

>Her selling influence to sheikhs and sultans through her tax deductible charitable foundation?

>Her ability to pack them in a stadiums?

>Her bullying her husband's victims?

>My personal favorite was her leaving men to die at Benghazi and claiming it was all about a video? That was simply precious.

>Max, were you ever really a Republican?

>r,

>Caltrop
>
>
>
>


Message 46d1c41c00A-9802-1288+1d.htm, number 127239, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 21:28:22
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9802-1137+1d.htm

Wow, that is just weird

Max


Just for the record. I doubt I have read the NYT in the last 20 years. I've been living for the past 10 years in a district that is double digit Republican. I don't think I even know what channel msnbc is on.
Odd, odd rant.
No real connection to reality.







n Tue Nov 1, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
>It started when McCain was asked if he thought Obama was a socialist and McCain couldn't bring himself to say "yes" because that would be too ungentlemanly. Those Republicans in Washingon had been there too long and failed to see Obama wasn't going to play by the rules they knew.

>It started when Obama bugged out of Iraq and telegraphed he'd be pulling out of Afghanistan after we had won in Iraq and brought things to a simmer in Afghanistan.  He believed, he claimed that wars never accomplished anything and what better way to prove that than to sabotage. He further sabotaged national security with a budget deal that slowly cut down the military to pre-WW2 levels.

>It started when the public began to realize we were paying incredible amounts to countries like Iran, we were spending incredible amounts toward the care and feeding of illegals, and illegals were displacing the tax payers in the job market.

>Historically, one other plank of Republicanism was fiscal responsibility.  The Obama administration has doubled the national debt and coddles anyone anywhere, other than American citizens makes American citizens pay for this as it pushes those same Americans out of jobs.

>Yes, fair trade was historically a Republican plank.  Globalism and free trade made sense until we started to take on impossible tasks beyond trade and take on impossible burdens of charity and while other countries start playing currency games and raiding our defense and computer proprietary knowledge. It is fine until you see your country crashing down around you hastened by executive actions that persistently spend more than the country can afford and exceed the traditional balance of checks and balances. Veterans don't get the level of care and support that illegals and refugees do.  Who administers all this? Big Government being paternal.

>The Party of Lincoln still stands for minimal government, fiscal responsibility, strong national security, and adherence to the Constitution.  Trouble is Max, you've been living to long in the Elite echo chamber run by a bunch of 27 year old reporters, as Ben Rhodes has told, who don't know a thing, and have learned to swallow whole cloth any press release Big Government has given them.

>Next Tuesday no matter what, you'll see that the Republican party is not dead, but it is changing its tactics and realigning its base.

>r,

>Caltrop

>


Message 182d66a00Nn-9802-1381+1d.htm, number 127240, was posted on Tue Nov 1 at 23:02:02
in reply to 46d1c41c00A-9802-1288+1d.htm

Yup, you've lost touch. NT

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Tue Nov 1, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Just for the record. I doubt I have read the NYT in the last 20 years. I've been living for the past 10 years in a district that is double digit Republican. I don't think I even know what channel msnbc is on.
>Odd, odd rant.
>No real connection to reality.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>n Tue Nov 1, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>--------------------------------
>>It started when McCain was asked if he thought Obama was a socialist and McCain couldn't bring himself to say "yes" because that would be too ungentlemanly. Those Republicans in Washingon had been there too long and failed to see Obama wasn't going to play by the rules they knew.

>>It started when Obama bugged out of Iraq and telegraphed he'd be pulling out of Afghanistan after we had won in Iraq and brought things to a simmer in Afghanistan.  He believed, he claimed that wars never accomplished anything and what better way to prove that than to sabotage. He further sabotaged national security with a budget deal that slowly cut down the military to pre-WW2 levels.

>>It started when the public began to realize we were paying incredible amounts to countries like Iran, we were spending incredible amounts toward the care and feeding of illegals, and illegals were displacing the tax payers in the job market.

>>Historically, one other plank of Republicanism was fiscal responsibility.  The Obama administration has doubled the national debt and coddles anyone anywhere, other than American citizens makes American citizens pay for this as it pushes those same Americans out of jobs.

>>Yes, fair trade was historically a Republican plank.  Globalism and free trade made sense until we started to take on impossible tasks beyond trade and take on impossible burdens of charity and while other countries start playing currency games and raiding our defense and computer proprietary knowledge. It is fine until you see your country crashing down around you hastened by executive actions that persistently spend more than the country can afford and exceed the traditional balance of checks and balances. Veterans don't get the level of care and support that illegals and refugees do.  Who administers all this? Big Government being paternal.

>>The Party of Lincoln still stands for minimal government, fiscal responsibility, strong national security, and adherence to the Constitution.  Trouble is Max, you've been living to long in the Elite echo chamber run by a bunch of 27 year old reporters, as Ben Rhodes has told, who don't know a thing, and have learned to swallow whole cloth any press release Big Government has given them.

>>Next Tuesday no matter what, you'll see that the Republican party is not dead, but it is changing its tactics and realigning its base.

>>r,

>>Caltrop

>>


Message 46d1c35700A-9803-733-30.htm, number 127241, was posted on Wed Nov 2 at 12:13:33
For our cousins across the pond

Max


From the posts below you can get the current sad state of American politics.
Hardly anybody has anything positive to say about either candidate. Oppose one and quickly be attacked as a sexist/racist. Oppose the other and you are quickly attacked as being a mindless media conspiracy dupe.

On the other hand, we all agree that the Brits have it worse.


Message 182d66a00Nn-9803-818+05.htm, number 127242, was posted on Wed Nov 2 at 13:37:58
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9802-822+06.htm

Well?

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Tue Nov 1, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>I wondered whether anyone would call me on that :-).  But I guess I expected more from Caltrop.  Now to be more explicit to him....


Well? You've pounded your chest a couple times.

I'm waiting.

r,

Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-9803-869+1e.htm, number 127243, was posted on Wed Nov 2 at 14:29:32
in reply to 46d1c35700A-9803-733-30.htm

Re: For our cousins . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Nov 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
. . On the other hand, we all agree that the Brits have it worse.

What is 'it' in this context? Certainly not rancour, personal abuse, dirty tricks, etc . .


Message 46d1c35700A-9803-980+1e.htm, number 127244, was posted on Wed Nov 2 at 16:19:51
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9803-869+1e.htm

Re^2: For our cousins . .

Max



Brex-IT



On Wed Nov 2, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>On Wed Nov 2, Max wrote
>-----------------------
> . . On the other hand, we all agree that the Brits have it worse.

>What is 'it' in this context? Certainly not rancour, personal abuse, dirty tricks, etc . .


Message 182d66a00Nn-9803-1376+1c.htm, number 127234, was edited on Wed Nov 2 at 22:56:27
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9802-1137+1d.htm

Yes, Max, there is a Republican Party. But you can't just read the NYT and watch MSNBC exclusively...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


It started when McCain was asked if he thought Obama was a socialist and McCain couldn't bring himself to say "yes" because that would be too ungentlemanly. Those Republicans in Washingon had been there too long and failed to see Obama wasn't going to play by the rules they knew.

It started when Obama bugged out of Iraq and telegraphed he'd be pulling out of Afghanistan after we had won in Iraq and brought things to a simmer in Afghanistan.  He had claimed that wars never accomplished anything and what better way to prove that than to sabotage. He further sabotaged national security with a budget deal that slowly cut down the military to pre-WW2 levels.

It started when the public began to realize we were paying incredible amounts to countries like Iran, spending incredible amounts toward the care and feeding of illegals, and illegals were displacing the tax payers in the job market.

Historically, one other plank of Republicanism was fiscal responsibility.  The Obama administration has doubled the national debt and coddles anyone anywhere, other than American citizens makes American citizens pay for this as it pushes those same Americans out of jobs.

Yes, fair trade was historically a Republican plank.  Globalism and free trade made sense until we started to take on impossible tasks beyond trade and take on impossible burdens of charity and while other countries start playing currency games and raiding our defense and computer proprietary knowledge. It is fine until you see your country crashing down around you hastened by executive actions that persistently spend more than the country can afford and exceed the traditional balance of checks and balances. Veterans don't get the level of care and support that illegals and refugees do.  Who administers all this? Big Government being paternal.

The Party of Lincoln still stands for minimal government, fiscal responsibility, strong national security, and adherence to the Constitution.  Trouble is Max, you've been living to long in the Elite echo chamber run by a bunch of 27 year old reporters, as Ben Rhodes has told, who don't know a thing, and have learned to swallow whole cloth any press release Big Government has given them.

Next Tuesday no matter what, you'll see that the Republican party is not dead, but it is changing its tactics and realigning its base.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 2 by the author ]


Message 4ca756ac8YV-9804-83-90.htm, number 127245, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 01:23:32
Hey, Cleveland!!!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Thanks for playing-see you next year!

CUBS WIN!!!!


Message 4f410f82cVG-9804-453+1d.htm, number 127246, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 07:33:03
in reply to 46d1c35700A-9803-980+1e.htm

Re^3: For our cousins . .

Testudo
madeup@yahoo.co.uk


Max
There is nothing to regret about Brexit in my opinion: we just voted to get our country back.  The rest is merely noise.
But, I do sympathise with you about the quality of your candidates.
Kind regards

Message 0c46108d00A-9804-517+5a.htm, number 127247, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 08:38:37
in reply to 4ca756ac8YV-9804-83-90.htm

Re: Hey, Cleveland!!!

WTLL


Who is now on the clock for longest drought since a championship (of any kind)?

I know that my hometown of ATL has the '95 World Series (and an outside shot at this year's Super Bowl).


Message 46d1c35700A-9804-643+1d.htm, number 127248, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 10:42:45
in reply to 4f410f82cVG-9804-453+1d.htm

Re^4: For our cousins . .

Max


Not commenting on the decision, just on the ensuing chaos. Ireland, I think, voted to stay in. How does this work?





On Thu Nov 3, Testudo wrote
---------------------------
>Max
>There is nothing to regret about Brexit in my opinion: we just voted to get our country back.  The rest is merely noise.
>But, I do sympathise with you about the quality of your candidates.
>Kind regards

Message 46d1c35700A-9804-645+5a.htm, number 127249, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 10:44:56
in reply to 0c46108d00A-9804-517+5a.htm

Re^2: Hey, Cleveland!!!

Max


I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure that the Treaty of Fort Laramie remains in effect "for so long as the grass grows, the rivers flow and the Cubs don't win the series".





On Thu Nov 3, WTLL wrote
------------------------
>Who is now on the clock for longest drought since a championship (of any kind)?

>I know that my hometown of ATL has the '95 World Series (and an outside shot at this year's Super Bowl).


Message 50e5a913p13-9804-648+1d.htm, number 127250, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 10:48:10
in reply to 46d1c35700A-9803-980+1e.htm

A message to her American subjects from Her Majesty The Queen...

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Nov 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>>Brex-IT
..................

To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth ll
Greetings! WHEREAS you have failed in recent years to nominate competent candidates for President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation* of your independence, effective immediately.

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except North Dakota, which she does not fancy). Your new Prime Minister, Theresa May, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further elections.

Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. The letter ‘U’ will be reinstated in words such as “colour”, ‘’favour,’ ‘labour’ and ‘neighbour.’
Likewise, you will learn to spell ‘doughnut’ without skipping half the letters, and the suffix ‘-ize’ will be replaced by the suffix ‘-ise.’ Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary** to acceptable levels.  

2. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as ‘’like’ and ‘you know’ is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S. English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter ’u’’ and the replacement of ‘-ize. 3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.

4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you’re not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you can’t sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you’re not ready to shoot grouse.

5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler, although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect.At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the new sense of humour.

7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it.

8. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.

9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. South African beer is also acceptable, as they are pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer.They are also part of the British Commonwealth – see what it did for them. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat’s Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.

10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Kevin Costner attempt English in Robin Hood was an experience akin to having one’s ears removed with a cheese grater.

11. You will cease playing American football. There is only one kind of proper football; you call it soccer. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies).

12. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America.Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the South Africans first to take the sting out of their deliveries.

13. You must tell us who killed JFK. It’s been driving us mad.

14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty’s Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776).

15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season (which is approximately every four years in the motherland) .

God Save the Queen!

Hat tip: Anon via [www.iaindale.com/posts/2016/10/31/a-message-to-america-from-her-majesty-the-queen]

* You may look up ‘revocation’ in the Oxford English Dictionary. www.oed.com/view/Entry/164945
** You may look up ‘vocabulary’ in the Oxford English Dictionary. www.oed.com/view/Entry/224268


Message 50e5a913p13-9804-655+1d.htm, number 127251, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 10:54:53
in reply to 46d1c35700A-9803-733-30.htm

Re: For our cousins across the pond

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Nov 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>On the other hand, we all agree that the Brits have it worse.
............
It is just the normal stuff of politics - much too soon to forecast who will think they've gained or lost in (say) 25 years' time. Today's development is pleasing to Remainers like me:

High court rules Parliamentary approval needed for Brexit:

High court set to rule on whether MPs should vote on triggering article 50 - Politics live


Message 50e5a913p13-9804-661+1d.htm, number 127251, was edited on Thu Nov 3 at 11:00:56
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9804-655+1d.htm

Re: For our cousins across the pond

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Nov 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>On the other hand, we all agree that the Brits have it worse.
............
It is just the normal stuff of politics - much too soon to forecast who will think they've gained or lost in (say) 25 years' time. Today's development is deeply pleasing to Remainers like me:

High court rules Parliamentary approval needed for Brexit:

The solicitor for one of the complainants (a hairdresser) reads out his reasons for bringing the case - and slaps down th PM, which she won't like!

High court set to rule on whether MPs should vote on triggering article 50 - Politics live

The 11 judges of the Supreme Court will hear the appeal on December 8 - 9.

[ This message was edited on Thu Nov 3 by the author ]


Message 46d1c35700A-9804-664+1d.htm, number 127252, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 11:04:32
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9804-648+1d.htm

Re: A reply to a message to her American subjects from Her Majesty The Queen...

Max


Please google "Cornwallis Surrender at Yorktown", "U.S. Enters WW 1 and 2" and "extra large can of whup ass" then get back to me.




On Thu Nov 3, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>On Wed Nov 2, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>>Brex-IT
>..................

>To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth ll
> Greetings! WHEREAS you have failed in recent years to nominate competent candidates for President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation* of your independence, effective immediately.

>Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except North Dakota, which she does not fancy). Your new Prime Minister, Theresa May, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further elections.

>Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed.

>To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

>1. The letter ‘U’ will be reinstated in words such as “colour”, ‘’favour,’ ‘labour’ and ‘neighbour.’
>Likewise, you will learn to spell ‘doughnut’ without skipping half the letters, and the suffix ‘-ize’ will be replaced by the suffix ‘-ise.’ Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary** to acceptable levels.  

>2. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as ‘’like’ and ‘you know’ is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S. English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter ’u’’ and the replacement of ‘-ize. 3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.

>4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you’re not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you can’t sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you’re not ready to shoot grouse.

>5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler, although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

>6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect.At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the new sense of humour.

>7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it.

>8. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.

>9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. South African beer is also acceptable, as they are pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer.They are also part of the British Commonwealth – see what it did for them. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat’s Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.

> 10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Kevin Costner attempt English in Robin Hood was an experience akin to having one’s ears removed with a cheese grater.

> 11. You will cease playing American football. There is only one kind of proper football; you call it soccer. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies).

> 12. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America.Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the South Africans first to take the sting out of their deliveries.

> 13. You must tell us who killed JFK. It’s been driving us mad.

> 14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty’s Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776).

> 15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season (which is approximately every four years in the motherland) .

>God Save the Queen!

>Hat tip: Anon via [www.iaindale.com/posts/2016/10/31/a-message-to-america-from-her-majesty-the-queen]

>* You may look up ‘revocation’ in the Oxford English Dictionary. www.oed.com/view/Entry/164945
>** You may look up ‘vocabulary’ in the Oxford English Dictionary. www.oed.com/view/Entry/224268

>


Message 50e5a913p13-9804-666+1d.htm, number 127251, was edited on Thu Nov 3 at 11:05:53
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9804-661+1d.htm

We just keep calm an dcarry on . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Nov 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>On the other hand, we all agree that the Brits have it worse.
............
. . It is just the normal stuff of politics - much too soon to forecast who will think they've gained or lost in (say) 25 years' time.

Today's development is deeply pleasing to Remainers like me:

High court rules Parliamentary approval needed for Brexit:

The solicitor for one of the complainants (a hairdresser) reads out his reasons for bringing the case - and slaps down th PM, which she won't like!

High court set to rule on whether MPs should vote on triggering article 50 - Politics live

The 11 judges of the Supreme Court will hear the appeal on December 8 - 9.

[ This message was edited on Thu Nov 3 by the author ]


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9804-718+5a.htm, number 127253, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 11:58:07
in reply to 46d1c35700A-9804-645+5a.htm

Re^3: Hey, Cleveland!!!

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I'm not a Cubs fan as a rule, but learning they hadn't won it for 108 years was good enough for me. And - believe it or not - I heard about the victory here first, having gone to bed after nine innings last night.
Plus, I like Joe Madden a lot. He'd look good as a presidential candidate : )


On Thu Nov 3, Max wrote
-----------------------
>I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure that the Treaty of Fort Laramie remains in effect "for so long as the grass grows, the rivers flow and the Cubs don't win the series".
>
>
>
>
>
>On Thu Nov 3, WTLL wrote
>------------------------
>>Who is now on the clock for longest drought since a championship (of any kind)?

>>I know that my hometown of ATL has the '95 World Series (and an outside shot at this year's Super Bowl).


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9804-719+5a.htm, number 127253, was edited on Thu Nov 3 at 11:58:59
and replaces message 6cadb27dgpf-9804-718+5a.htm

Re^3: Hey, Cleveland!!!

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I'm not a Cubs fan as a rule, but learning they hadn't won it for 108 years was good enough for me. And - believe it or not - I heard about the victory here first, having gone to bed after nine innings last night.
Plus, I like Joe Maddon a lot. He'd look good as a presidential candidate : )


On Thu Nov 3, Max wrote
-----------------------
>I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure that the Treaty of Fort Laramie remains in effect "for so long as the grass grows, the rivers flow and the Cubs don't win the series".
>
>
>
>
>
>On Thu Nov 3, WTLL wrote
>------------------------
>>Who is now on the clock for longest drought since a championship (of any kind)?

>>I know that my hometown of ATL has the '95 World Series (and an outside shot at this year's Super Bowl).

[ This message was edited on Thu Nov 3 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9804-734+1d.htm, number 127254, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 12:14:22
in reply to 46d1c35700A-9804-664+1d.htm

The French Victory at Yorktown: 19 October 1781

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Nov 3, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Please google "Cornwallis Surrender at Yorktown" .  .

No need for 'google', I was reading about this affair just the other evening:

[October 1016]: Stephen Conway writes: The surrender of Lord Cornwallis’s British army at Yorktown, Virginia, on 19 October 1781 marked the effective end of the War of American Independence, at least in North America. The victory is usually assumed to have been Washington’s; he led the army that besieged Cornwallis, marching a powerful force of 16,000 troops down from near New York City to oppose the British . .

In truth, Washington commanded an allied army, in which the French component was very important. A French army expeditionary force had been stationed in New England since 1780, and soldiers from this French contingent (when combined with others brought up from the West Indies) comprised nearly half of Washington’s forces . . Not only did French heavy artillery relentlessly pound Cornwallis’s defensive works, but French troops played a key part in capturing an important British redoubt. But before this moment, the French navy had sealed Cornwallis’s fate by leaving him trapped and without realistic hope of help.

Ever since the French entered the war as American allies in 1778, Sir Henry Clinton, the British commander-in-chief in North America, had worried about the potential of the French navy to co-ordinate operations with the American army and force a British outpost or army to surrende . . In the autumn of 1781 . . the French and Americans finally realized the potential of their alliance in dramatic fashion.

The French fleet that cut Cornwallis off by sea fended off a British attempt to relieve him, forcing the British vessels to retreat to New York to repair and refit. This naval battle proved to be the decisive episode in the siege, not least because the French victory persuaded Cornwallis that the writing was on the wall. Clinton made one desperate last attempt to save his beleaguered colleague, assembling as many men as he could spare from the New York garrison and putting them on board the British fleet. But by the time they set sail, Cornwallis had already opened negotiations and was preparing to surrender.

The vital role played by the French navy at Yorktown became more apparent in retrospect. Washington, flushed with triumph, wanted to go on and force the surrender of the remaining British strongholds at Charleston, South Carolina, and New York City, the British headquarters. But the French had other ideas. Their fleet and army sailed down to the Caribbean, with the aim of delivering a knock-out blow to the British by capturing Jamaica. Their hopes were dashed by Admiral Sir George Rodney’s victory at the Battle of the Saintes, which saved Jamaica and began a revival of British fortunes.

Tellingly, in the absence of the French fleet, Washington could make no progress in forcing the surrender of the remaining British outposts in the United States. His troops prevented the British from penetrating far inland from their bases, but they alone could not compel the British to capitulate, as their garrisons could be sustained by British control of the coast. In the end, the British withdrew from Charleston at a time of their own choosing, and remained in New York until after the final peace treaties had been signed. Without the French navy, Washington could not pull off another Yorktown—and without the French navy, Yorktown itself may not have been the important British defeat that it was. Cornwallis would probably have held out until reinforcements sent by Clinton obliged Washington to lift the siege.

Stephen Conway is Professor of History at University College London . .

[blog.oup.com/2016/10/french-victory-yorktown/]




Message 50e5a913p13-9804-735+1d.htm, number 127251, was edited on Thu Nov 3 at 12:15:00
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9804-666+1d.htm

We just keep calm and carry on . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Nov 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>On the other hand, we all agree that the Brits have it worse.
............
. . It is just the normal stuff of politics - much too soon to forecast who will think they've gained or lost in (say) 25 years' time.

Today's development is deeply pleasing to Remainers like me:

High court rules Parliamentary approval needed for Brexit:

The solicitor for one of the complainants (a hairdresser) reads out his reasons for bringing the case - and slaps down th PM, which she won't like!

High court set to rule on whether MPs should vote on triggering article 50 - Politics live

The 11 judges of the Supreme Court will hear the appeal on December 8 - 9.

[ This message was edited on Thu Nov 3 by the author ]


Message 041077a400A-9804-813-30.htm, number 127255, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 13:33:17
Pronunciation?

CJP


I picked a volume out of the row of the tome on my bookshelf at random yesterday and started to read.  I was confounded that after all these years and so many (re)readings, I have yet to satisfy myself on the pronunciation of "Jagiello."  Upon consideration of this embarrassing revelation, I realized that - if only silently between my ears.
Is the "J" sounded like a "J" or a "Y?"
Is the "g" hard or soft?
Is the "iello" "yellow" or "eelo?"
Are the two "ll's" "l's" or said like a "y" as in some languages?  
I'd really enjoy hearing what you guys have been saying to yourselves for all these years.  And, yes, I'm glad the site is back up even though I've been silently lurking in the back corner.

Message 6cadb27dgpf-9804-836+1e.htm, number 127256, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 13:55:34
in reply to 041077a400A-9804-813-30.htm

Re: Pronunciation?

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


The 'J' is almost certainly pronounced as a 'Y', if it's Slavic, at all.
A Polish fellow I know has the last name 'Trusilo' or maybe 'Trusillo'. He pronounces the last syllable 'wo'
How a Swede or a Lithuanian might pronounce it.... a different matter.


On Thu Nov 3, CJP wrote
-----------------------
>I picked a volume out of the row of the tome on my bookshelf at random yesterday and started to read.  I was confounded that after all these years and so many (re)readings, I have yet to satisfy myself on the pronunciation of "Jagiello."  Upon consideration of this embarrassing revelation, I realized that - if only silently between my ears.
>Is the "J" sounded like a "J" or a "Y?"
>Is the "g" hard or soft?
>Is the "iello" "yellow" or "eelo?"
>Are the two "ll's" "l's" or said like a "y" as in some languages?  
>I'd really enjoy hearing what you guys have been saying to yourselves for all these years.  And, yes, I'm glad the site is back up even though I've been silently lurking in the back corner.

Message 4ca756ac8YV-9804-859+5a.htm, number 127257, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 14:18:54
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-9804-719+5a.htm

Re^4: Hey, Cleveland!!!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


You went to bed with a tied score going into the 10th inning of Game 7 of the World Series between two teams that hadn't won a series since 1908(Cubs)and 1945(Indians)????

It was the rain delay, wasn't it?



On Thu Nov 3, Joe McWilliams wrote
----------------------------------
>I'm not a Cubs fan as a rule, but learning they hadn't won it for 108 years was good enough for me. And - believe it or not - I heard about the victory here first, having gone to bed after nine innings last night.
>Plus, I like Joe Maddon a lot. He'd look good as a presidential candidate : )
>
>
>On Thu Nov 3, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure that the Treaty of Fort Laramie remains in effect "for so long as the grass grows, the rivers flow and the Cubs don't win the series".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu Nov 3, WTLL wrote
>>------------------------
>>>Who is now on the clock for longest drought since a championship (of any kind)?

>>>I know that my hometown of ATL has the '95 World Series (and an outside shot at this year's Super Bowl).


Message 4ca756ac8YV-9804-870+1e.htm, number 127258, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 14:30:23
in reply to 041077a400A-9804-813-30.htm

Re: Pronunciation?

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


You pick one...

I 'pronounce' it 'Yagiello' in my head - with a hard 'g' and then 'ee' 'ello' (like Jello)
'
On Thu Nov 3, CJP wrote
-----------------------
>I picked a volume out of the row of the tome on my bookshelf at random yesterday and started to read.  I was confounded that after all these years and so many (re)readings, I have yet to satisfy myself on the pronunciation of "Jagiello."  Upon consideration of this embarrassing revelation, I realized that - if only silently between my ears.
>Is the "J" sounded like a "J" or a "Y?"
>Is the "g" hard or soft?
>Is the "iello" "yellow" or "eelo?"
>Are the two "ll's" "l's" or said like a "y" as in some languages?  
>I'd really enjoy hearing what you guys have been saying to yourselves for all these years.  And, yes, I'm glad the site is back up even though I've been silently lurking in the back corner.


Message 46d1c35700A-9804-881+1e.htm, number 127259, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 14:41:16
in reply to 041077a400A-9804-813-30.htm

Charley is that really you?

Max



Where have you been?!





n Thu Nov 3, CJP wrote
-----------------------
>I picked a volume out of the row of the tome on my bookshelf at random yesterday and started to read.  I was confounded that after all these years and so many (re)readings, I have yet to satisfy myself on the pronunciation of "Jagiello."  Upon consideration of this embarrassing revelation, I realized that - if only silently between my ears.
>Is the "J" sounded like a "J" or a "Y?"
>Is the "g" hard or soft?
>Is the "iello" "yellow" or "eelo?"
>Are the two "ll's" "l's" or said like a "y" as in some languages?  
>I'd really enjoy hearing what you guys have been saying to yourselves for all these years.  And, yes, I'm glad the site is back up even though I've been silently lurking in the back corner.

Message 041077a400A-9804-892+1e.htm, number 127260, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 14:52:51
in reply to 46d1c35700A-9804-881+1e.htm

Re: Charley is that really you?

CJP


On Thu Nov 3, Max wrote
-----------------------
>>Where have you been?!

Hanging around, working my derriere off, and finally getting ready to hang up my spurs.  I've been checking in on the site occasionally and enjoying the banter as always.  When the site went down, I went into private mourning because I've always enjoyed the personalities in the posts.  When I tried again today and saw that it was back up, I couldn't restrain myself, particularly because I'd picked out "The Ionian Mission" yesterday, at random, read the first couple of pages, and stumped myself with Jagiello.  It's good to hear from you, Max, and I hope that all is well with you, yours, and the group on the site.
As I was reading the recent exchange between you and the good Capt Caltrop, I wondered where "Growlbunny" had disappeared to because he's probably frothing at the gills about now.


Message 50e5a913p13-9804-895-90.htm, number 127261, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 14:55:13
The Talisker Whisky Atlantic Challenge - The World’s Toughest Row

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



The premier event in ocean rowing – A challenge that will take you more than 4.800 km. (2.600 nm.) west from San Sebastian in La Gomera, Canary Islands (28N 18W) to Nelson’s Dockyard English Harbour, Antigua & Barbuda (17N 61W). The annual race begins in early December, with up to 30 teams participating from around the world . .

. . From the sunsets and sunrises to the wildlife that will be encountered first hand – the race offers different experiences to all those involved. Boats are seven meters long and just under two metres wide, with only a small cabin for protection against storms. All boats are equipped at the race start, and cannot take any repair, help or food and water during the crossing. There is a constant battle of sleep deprivation, salt sores and the physical extremes that the row will inflict.

Once the safe haven and party atmosphere of port is left behind – you are left with your own thoughts, an expanse of the ocean and the job of getting the boat safely to the other side. It’s now your World . .

You will become a member of a small community of friends that have shared the adventures of an ocean crossing. The mental and physical endurance will result in a life changing achievement and in the closing days of the challenge – the excitement of reaching Antigua will be your foremost thought with every pull of the oars

[www.atlanticcampaigns.com/]

It's too late to enter this year but bookings for 2017 will open soon.


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9804-927+5a.htm, number 127262, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 15:26:45
in reply to 4ca756ac8YV-9804-859+5a.htm

Re^5: Hey, Cleveland!!!

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


And old age. I would have stayed up for the Blue Jays, though.

On Thu Nov 3, akatow wrote
--------------------------
>You went to bed with a tied score going into the 10th inning of Game 7 of the World Series between two teams that hadn't won a series since 1908(Cubs)and 1945(Indians)????

>It was the rain delay, wasn't it?
>
>
>
>On Thu Nov 3, Joe McWilliams wrote
>----------------------------------
>>I'm not a Cubs fan as a rule, but learning they hadn't won it for 108 years was good enough for me. And - believe it or not - I heard about the victory here first, having gone to bed after nine innings last night.
>>Plus, I like Joe Maddon a lot. He'd look good as a presidential candidate : )
>>
>>
>>On Thu Nov 3, Max wrote
>>-----------------------
>>>I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure that the Treaty of Fort Laramie remains in effect "for so long as the grass grows, the rivers flow and the Cubs don't win the series".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu Nov 3, WTLL wrote
>>>------------------------
>>>>Who is now on the clock for longest drought since a championship (of any kind)?

>>>>I know that my hometown of ATL has the '95 World Series (and an outside shot at this year's Super Bowl).


Message 46d1c35700A-9804-1024+1e.htm, number 127263, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 17:04:29
in reply to 041077a400A-9804-892+1e.htm

Re^2: Charley is that really you?

Max


Yes, it has the GB flavor doesn't it.

Welcome back. Glad to see there is a silver lining to the shut down.




n Thu Nov 3, CJP wrote
-----------------------
>On Thu Nov 3, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>>Where have you been?!

>Hanging around, working my derriere off, and finally getting ready to hang up my spurs.  I've been checking in on the site occasionally and enjoying the banter as always.  When the site went down, I went into private mourning because I've always enjoyed the personalities in the posts.  When I tried again today and saw that it was back up, I couldn't restrain myself, particularly because I'd picked out "The Ionian Mission" yesterday, at random, read the first couple of pages, and stumped myself with Jagiello.  It's good to hear from you, Max, and I hope that all is well with you, yours, and the group on the site.
>As I was reading the recent exchange between you and the good Capt Caltrop, I wondered where "Growlbunny" had disappeared to because he's probably frothing at the gills about now.


Message 4981ca22cZn-9804-1029+1e.htm, number 127264, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 17:09:24
in reply to 041077a400A-9804-892+1e.htm

Re^2: Charlie is that really you?

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Welcome back from me, too.  

When the site went down, there were a few email messages exchanged among some of the Forumites but the address that we had for you did not work.


On Thu Nov 3, CJP wrote
-----------------------
>On Thu Nov 3, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>>Where have you been?!

>Hanging around, working my derriere off, and finally getting ready to hang up my spurs.  I've been checking in on the site occasionally and enjoying the banter as always.  When the site went down, I went into private mourning because I've always enjoyed the personalities in the posts.  When I tried again today and saw that it was back up, I couldn't restrain myself, particularly because I'd picked out "The Ionian Mission" yesterday, at random, read the first couple of pages, and stumped myself with Jagiello.  It's good to hear from you, Max, and I hope that all is well with you, yours, and the group on the site.
>As I was reading the recent exchange between you and the good Capt Caltrop, I wondered where "Growlbunny" had disappeared to because he's probably frothing at the gills about now.


Message 041077a400A-9804-1044+1e.htm, number 127265, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 17:24:08
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9804-1029+1e.htm

Re^3: Charlie is that really you?

CJP


On Thu Nov 3, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
We had a change of location that necessitated a change of email address a while back.  When you're moving a company, the rest of your life takes a back seat to the endless fire drills and emergencies that seem to go on forever.  
Thanks again for that pleasant evening years ago, Mark.  I hope you and yours are well.
Charlie

>Welcome back from me, too.  

>When the site went down, there were a few email messages exchanged among some of the Forumites but the address that we had for you did not work.
>
>
>On Thu Nov 3, CJP wrote
>-----------------------
>>On Thu Nov 3, Max wrote
>>-----------------------
>>>>Where have you been?!

>>Hanging around, working my derriere off, and finally getting ready to hang up my spurs.  I've been checking in on the site occasionally and enjoying the banter as always.  When the site went down, I went into private mourning because I've always enjoyed the personalities in the posts.  When I tried again today and saw that it was back up, I couldn't restrain myself, particularly because I'd picked out "The Ionian Mission" yesterday, at random, read the first couple of pages, and stumped myself with Jagiello.  It's good to hear from you, Max, and I hope that all is well with you, yours, and the group on the site.
>>As I was reading the recent exchange between you and the good Capt Caltrop, I wondered where "Growlbunny" had disappeared to because he's probably frothing at the gills about now.


Message 041077a400A-9804-1048+1e.htm, number 127266, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 17:27:44
in reply to 4ca756ac8YV-9804-870+1e.htm

Re^2: Pronunciation?

CJP


Thank you, akatow.  The internet is a wonderful thing.  However, as a staunch Luddite stuck somewhere in the middle of the last century, I have been slow to adapt to the 'Google search' reflex.  Eventually I'll catch up.

On Thu Nov 3, akatow wrote
--------------------------
>You pick one...

>

>

>I 'pronounce' it 'Yagiello' in my head - with a hard 'g' and then 'ee' 'ello' (like Jello)
>'
>On Thu Nov 3, CJP wrote
>-----------------------
>>I picked a volume out of the row of the tome on my bookshelf at random yesterday and started to read.  I was confounded that after all these years and so many (re)readings, I have yet to satisfy myself on the pronunciation of "Jagiello."  Upon consideration of this embarrassing revelation, I realized that - if only silently between my ears.
>>Is the "J" sounded like a "J" or a "Y?"
>>Is the "g" hard or soft?
>>Is the "iello" "yellow" or "eelo?"
>>Are the two "ll's" "l's" or said like a "y" as in some languages?  
>>I'd really enjoy hearing what you guys have been saying to yourselves for all these years.  And, yes, I'm glad the site is back up even though I've been silently lurking in the back corner.


Message 4ca756ac8YV-9804-1063+1e.htm, number 127267, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 17:43:36
in reply to 041077a400A-9804-1048+1e.htm

Re^3: Pronunciation?

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Dinna fash yersel.  You'll notice that the pronunciation I personally use is far from the 'official' one.  

There are any number of words living in my head that I've never heard pronounced aloud nor would trouble to Google for myself.  (It comes from all the reading, don't you know?)



On Thu Nov 3, CJP wrote
-----------------------
>Thank you, akatow.  The internet is a wonderful thing.  However, as a staunch Luddite stuck somewhere in the middle of the last century, I have been slow to adapt to the 'Google search' reflex.  Eventually I'll catch up.

>On Thu Nov 3, akatow wrote
>--------------------------
>>You pick one...


>>I 'pronounce' it 'Yagiello' in my head - with a hard 'g' and then 'ee' 'ello' (like Jello)
>>'
>>On Thu Nov 3, CJP wrote
>>-----------------------
>>>I picked a volume out of the row of the tome on my bookshelf at random yesterday and started to read.  I was confounded that after all these years and so many (re)readings, I have yet to satisfy myself on the pronunciation of "Jagiello."  Upon consideration of this embarrassing revelation, I realized that - if only silently between my ears.
>>>Is the "J" sounded like a "J" or a "Y?"
>>>Is the "g" hard or soft?
>>>Is the "iello" "yellow" or "eelo?"
>>>Are the two "ll's" "l's" or said like a "y" as in some languages?  
>>>I'd really enjoy hearing what you guys have been saying to yourselves for all these years.  And, yes, I'm glad the site is back up even though I've been silently lurking in the back corner.


Message 46d1c35700A-9804-1261-30.htm, number 127268, was posted on Thu Nov 3 at 21:01:29
World Series droughts (from below)

Max


To answer the question below: there are 7 franchises that have never won a World Series. But none of them have been around since before 1948. So, I would give Cleveland the crown as new monarch of baseball futility.
That said, DC seems particularly blighted. Not only the current team has never won, but no team that used to be in DC went on to win. Just to cap it off, no team that would, in the future, move to DC has ever won (Nationals, Senators, Expos, Astros).

Message 602421f200A-9805-612+1c.htm, number 127269, was posted on Fri Nov 4 at 10:12:38
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9804-648+1d.htm

Re: A message to her American subjects from Her Majesty The Queen...

Beached


My thanks for some humor in this increasingly contentious forum during this bad season.





On Thu Nov 3, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>On Wed Nov 2, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>>Brex-IT
>..................

>To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth ll
> Greetings! WHEREAS you have failed in recent years to nominate competent candidates for President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation* of your independence, effective immediately.

>Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except North Dakota, which she does not fancy). Your new Prime Minister, Theresa May, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further elections.

>Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed.

>To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

>1. The letter ‘U’ will be reinstated in words such as “colour”, ‘’favour,’ ‘labour’ and ‘neighbour.’
>Likewise, you will learn to spell ‘doughnut’ without skipping half the letters, and the suffix ‘-ize’ will be replaced by the suffix ‘-ise.’ Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary** to acceptable levels.  

>2. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as ‘’like’ and ‘you know’ is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S. English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter ’u’’ and the replacement of ‘-ize. 3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.

>4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you’re not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you can’t sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you’re not ready to shoot grouse.

>5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler, although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

>6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect.At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the new sense of humour.

>7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it.

>8. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.

>9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. South African beer is also acceptable, as they are pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer.They are also part of the British Commonwealth – see what it did for them. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat’s Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.

> 10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Kevin Costner attempt English in Robin Hood was an experience akin to having one’s ears removed with a cheese grater.

> 11. You will cease playing American football. There is only one kind of proper football; you call it soccer. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies).

> 12. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America.Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the South Africans first to take the sting out of their deliveries.

> 13. You must tell us who killed JFK. It’s been driving us mad.

> 14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty’s Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776).

> 15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season (which is approximately every four years in the motherland) .

>God Save the Queen!

>Hat tip: Anon via [www.iaindale.com/posts/2016/10/31/a-message-to-america-from-her-majesty-the-queen]

>* You may look up ‘revocation’ in the Oxford English Dictionary. www.oed.com/view/Entry/164945
>** You may look up ‘vocabulary’ in the Oxford English Dictionary. www.oed.com/view/Entry/224268

>


Message 4ca756ac8YV-9805-804+1c.htm, number 127270, was posted on Fri Nov 4 at 13:24:29
in reply to 602421f200A-9805-612+1c.htm

Re^2: Oh, honey....

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


This place is downright civil compared to what has happened in previous elections - the UN was going to send in peacekeepers for awhile....

The election is Tuesday...let's not jinx it.



On Fri Nov 4, Beached wrote
---------------------------
>My thanks for some humor in this increasingly contentious forum during this bad season.
>
>
>
>
>
>On Thu Nov 3, Chrístõ wrote
>---------------------------
>>On Wed Nov 2, Max wrote
>>-----------------------
>>>>Brex-IT
>>..................

>>To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth ll
>> Greetings! WHEREAS you have failed in recent years to nominate competent candidates for President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation* of your independence, effective immediately.

>>Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except North Dakota, which she does not fancy). Your new Prime Minister, Theresa May, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further elections.

>>Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed.

>>To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

>>1. The letter ‘U’ will be reinstated in words such as “colour”, ‘’favour,’ ‘labour’ and ‘neighbour.’
>>Likewise, you will learn to spell ‘doughnut’ without skipping half the letters, and the suffix ‘-ize’ will be replaced by the suffix ‘-ise.’ Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary** to acceptable levels.  

>>2. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as ‘’like’ and ‘you know’ is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S. English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter ’u’’ and the replacement of ‘-ize. 3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.

>>4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you’re not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you can’t sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you’re not ready to shoot grouse.

>>5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler, although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

>>6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect.At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the new sense of humour.

>>7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it.

>>8. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.

>>9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. South African beer is also acceptable, as they are pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer.They are also part of the British Commonwealth – see what it did for them. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat’s Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.

>> 10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Kevin Costner attempt English in Robin Hood was an experience akin to having one’s ears removed with a cheese grater.

>> 11. You will cease playing American football. There is only one kind of proper football; you call it soccer. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies).

>> 12. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America.Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the South Africans first to take the sting out of their deliveries.

>> 13. You must tell us who killed JFK. It’s been driving us mad.

>> 14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty’s Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776).

>> 15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season (which is approximately every four years in the motherland) .

>>God Save the Queen!

>>Hat tip: Anon via [www.iaindale.com/posts/2016/10/31/a-message-to-america-from-her-majesty-the-queen]

>>* You may look up ‘revocation’ in the Oxford English Dictionary. www.oed.com/view/Entry/164945
>>** You may look up ‘vocabulary’ in the Oxford English Dictionary. www.oed.com/view/Entry/224268

>>


Message 50e5a913p13-9806-400+1b.htm, number 127271, was posted on Sat Nov 5 at 06:40:25
in reply to 4ca756ac8YV-9805-804+1c.htm

Re^3: Oh, honey....

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Nov 4, akatow wrote
--------------------------
>This place is downright civil compared to what has happened in previous elections - the UN was going to send in peacekeepers for awhile....

Indeed - I had just come on board in '04 and found the mutual bad feeling quite startling. Some of what I read on Zero Hedge this time is also startling but I trust that there's much less to it than meets the eye and the calm 'can do' common sense for which Americans are renowned will prevail.


Message 4588233100A-9806-477-07.htm, number 127272, was posted on Sat Nov 5 at 07:57:43
Epistocracy vs. Democracy? Long form from "The New Yorker"

WTLL


"Sometimes he drinks heavily while listening to the flute; at other times, he drinks only water and is on a diet; sometimes he goes in for physical training; at other times, he’s idle and neglects everything; and sometimes he even occupies himself with what he takes to be philosophy."  Plato (railing against Democracy)



www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/11/07/the-case-ag

Message 50e5a913p13-9806-912+1b.htm, number 127273, was posted on Sat Nov 5 at 15:11:59
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9806-400+1b.htm

Re^4: Oh, honey....

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Nov 5, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>On Fri Nov 4, akatow wrote
>--------------------------
>>This place is downright civil compared to what has happened in previous elections - the UN was going to send in peacekeepers for awhile....

>Indeed - I had just come on board in '04 and found the mutual bad feeling quite startling. Some of what I read on Zero Hedge this time is also startling but I trust that there's much less to it than meets the eye and the calm 'can do' common sense for which Americans are renowned will prevail.


Message 50e5a913p13-9807-685-90.htm, number 127274, was posted on Sun Nov 6 at 11:25:10
See that red spot on the chart? Sail over it and you'll find a Russian sub

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Take RN exercise Unmanned Warrior, add drone data and Esri's ArcGIS maps...

Gareth Corfield writes: The Royal Navy's Unmanned Warrior exercise, which concluded last week, was a good jolly for the various drones and other sensor-laden toys the RN wants to buy. Yet the real value is in the data processing, which is where mapping firm Esri came in. . . its cloud-based ArcGIS map product was being used by the Navy to plan, command and control the exercise as well as analyse the data gathered by the 40 drones used during the exercise . .

The Unmanned Warrior database was . . "completely commercial-off-the-shelf" . . A similar Esri product used for above-ground mapping during the exercise is simply named Drone2Map and does what it says on the tin, creating 3D terrain maps from aerial photos taken by UAVs. El Reg was shown a particularly neat 3D map created with it, where Esri man Mark Clewis had installed the sensor app on his phone and created a detailed 3D plot of his garden shed and vegetable patch.

The Register understands that naval analysts were very interested in the potential of ArcGIS and hadn't realised just what the civilian world was capable of, technologically, until seeing it halfway through Unmanned Warrior. As sexy as the drones might be, the real value is in crunching through the data they gather.

[www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/28/unmanned_warrior_esri_argcis_cloud_based_mapping/]
ArcGIS for Desktop
Free Trial


Message 90a0626000A-9807-743-90.htm, number 127275, was posted on Sun Nov 6 at 12:23:48
Map nerds: The authagraph projection

YA


It's been around since 1999 apparently, but it just won a design award so it's bubbling up on the internet again. Born of the dymaxion map, but way cooler. Anyway, first I've heard of it.
vimeo.com/15432252

Message 50e5a913p13-9809-357-90.htm, number 127276, was posted on Tue Nov 8 at 05:57:31
Humours* of an Election: The Polling

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



Voters are shown declaring their support for the Republicans (red) or Democrats (blue). Agents from both sides are using unscrupulous tactics to increase their votes or challenge opposing voters. To the right, a Republican voter with a hook instead of his amputated hand is being challenged because he is placing his hook, rather than his hand, as legally prescribed, on the book.

Meanwhile, the Democrats have brought a mentally disabled man to vote. A dying Republican supporter is being carried in behind him. In the background a woman in a carriage with a broken axle stands for America. Her coachmen are gambling, ignoring the fact that the carriage is broken.

After Hogarth, 1755. (wikipedia)
..........
* 'hum ur Anglo-Norman . .
. . II. Senses denoting mental quality or condition, originally with reference to the belief that temperament or mood is determined by the relative proportions of the bodily humours . .
. . 5. b. An excited state of public feeling. Chiefly in pl. Now rare.
. . 1659 T. Burton Diary (1828) IV. 423 These tymes, and the affairs transacted in them, give motion to all sorts of humours in the nation.
1761 D. Hume Hist. Eng. II. xxi. 27 The humours of the people, set afloat by the parliamentary impeachment..broke out in various commotions.
1834 J. Blackie tr. Goethe Faust 7 Whoso with easy sweetness can discourse, May tame the humours of the mob by force. . . ‘ (OED)


Message 50e5a913p13-9809-359-90.htm, number 127277, was posted on Tue Nov 8 at 05:59:02
Election Day! The World Holds Its Breath . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


and the papers hold their front pages:
 photo Screen Shot 2016-11-08 at 10.53.36.png

Hat tip: newlandofwelinton.wordpress.com/tag/day-the-earth-caught-fire/


Message 46d1c35700A-9809-625-30.htm, number 127278, was posted on Tue Nov 8 at 10:24:37
WW2 - the Pacific

Max


I've been reading a bit about the months after Pearl Harbor. Specifically the Navy/Marine activities in the pacific.
Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, Midway. Fascinating stuff.
The technical transition. The heroism. The luck...good and bad.
Epic stuff.
Jack and Maturin would have fit right in.

Message 041077a400A-9809-676+1e.htm, number 127279, was posted on Tue Nov 8 at 11:15:57
in reply to 46d1c35700A-9809-625-30.htm

Re: WW2 - the Pacific

CJP


My father piloted a landing craft in the Okinawa invasion.  A few weeks later his ship was sunk in a typhoon.  Such stories... When he was hallucinating as he lay dying 55 years later, he was talking to his old shipmate.  The Greatest Generation is an apt moniker.  

On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
-----------------------
>I've been reading a bit about the months after Pearl Harbor. Specifically the Navy/Marine activities in the pacific.
>Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, Midway. Fascinating stuff.
>The technical transition. The heroism. The luck...good and bad.
>Epic stuff.
>Jack and Maturin would have fit right in.


Message 46d1c35700A-9809-727+1e.htm, number 127280, was posted on Tue Nov 8 at 12:07:35
in reply to 041077a400A-9809-676+1e.htm

Re^2: WW2 - the Pacific

Max


The surprise for me was how much they didn't say. I had an Uncle by marriage. Always got along great with him. We were close. I didn't find out until after he died that he was torpedoed TWICE while serving on destroyers in the Pacific.
My other Uncle, this one by blood, was wounded during an amphibious landing.
All he ever told me was a reference to "being shot in the ass at Saipan".
I was kid. I thought Saipan was a bar.





n Tue Nov 8, CJP wrote
-----------------------
>My father piloted a landing craft in the Okinawa invasion.  A few weeks later his ship was sunk in a typhoon.  Such stories... When he was hallucinating as he lay dying 55 years later, he was talking to his old shipmate.  The Greatest Generation is an apt moniker.  

>On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>I've been reading a bit about the months after Pearl Harbor. Specifically the Navy/Marine activities in the pacific.
>>Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, Midway. Fascinating stuff.
>>The technical transition. The heroism. The luck...good and bad.
>>Epic stuff.
>>Jack and Maturin would have fit right in.


Message 50e5a913p13-9809-740+5a.htm, number 127281, was posted on Tue Nov 8 at 12:20:44
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9809-357-90.htm

What to Drink on Election Night

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


' . . If the current Clinton-Trump contest has you longing for the days when you could simultaneously exercise your franchise and metabolize your alcohol, I humbly nominate the old-fashioned cocktail . . In 1806, the editor of a Hudson, N.Y., newspaper called the Balance and Columbian Repository replied to a reader confused about a recent passing reference to “cock-tail”:

"Cock-tail, then is a stimulating liquor, composed of spirits of any kind, sugar, water and bitters. It … is supposed to be an excellent electioneering potion inasmuch as it renders the heart stout and bold, at the same time that it fuddles the head. It is said also, to be of great use to a democratic candidate: because, a person having swallowed a glass of it, is ready to swallow any thing else." . .


Old-Fashioned Whiskey Cocktail

2 oz. rye or bourbon whiskey

¼ oz. simple syrup

2 or more dashes Angostura bitters and/or orange bitters

Garnish: Lemon twist or orange twist or, in the best of all possible worlds, both.

Pour bitters, syrup, and whiskey into an ice-filled old-fashioned glass and stir. Add citrus twist(s). '

What to Drink on Election Night [Bloomberg]


Message 041077a400A-9809-774+1e.htm, number 127282, was posted on Tue Nov 8 at 12:54:01
in reply to 46d1c35700A-9809-727+1e.htm

Re^3: WW2 - the Pacific

CJP


I think that trait (silence) was pretty typical.  My Dad didn't say anything about his experience until I was old enough to go to a bar with him.  We were sitting together over a series of 'bumps and beers' getting fairly lubricated before he broke silence and told his tales.  We talked for hours, and I never looked at him quite the same again.  The word "Okinawa" also was never the same for me after that evening forty years ago.

On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
-----------------------
>The surprise for me was how much they didn't say. I had an Uncle by marriage. Always got along great with him. We were close. I didn't find out until after he died that he was torpedoed TWICE while serving on destroyers in the Pacific.
>My other Uncle, this one by blood, was wounded during an amphibious landing.
>All he ever told me was a reference to "being shot in the ass at Saipan".
>I was kid. I thought Saipan was a bar.
>
>
>
>
>
>n Tue Nov 8, CJP wrote
>-----------------------
>>My father piloted a landing craft in the Okinawa invasion.  A few weeks later his ship was sunk in a typhoon.  Such stories... When he was hallucinating as he lay dying 55 years later, he was talking to his old shipmate.  The Greatest Generation is an apt moniker.  

>>On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
>>-----------------------
>>>I've been reading a bit about the months after Pearl Harbor. Specifically the Navy/Marine activities in the pacific.
>>>Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, Midway. Fascinating stuff.
>>>The technical transition. The heroism. The luck...good and bad.
>>>Epic stuff.
>>>Jack and Maturin would have fit right in.


Message 182d66a00Nn-9809-887+1e.htm, number 127283, was posted on Tue Nov 8 at 14:49:37
in reply to 041077a400A-9809-774+1e.htm

Okinawa...USS Twiggs

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Memorial Day has historically had less application for sailors because of the simple fact many sailors had no gravestones to be decorated. Watery, unmarked graves present a problem. Ships are battlefields that disappear in mere minutes with evidence, witnesses, and memories, for good and for bad.

Here in Fairfield and in other local New England coastal towns we have a ceremony pierside and then a line of boats proceed into the Long Island Sound and someone, an honored someone, casts a wreath upon the waters. As a senior captain, I generally am asked to emcee these ceremonies.

Several years ago, the wreath-caster was lanterned-jawed, snipe from our town,  a veteran of the sinking of USS Twiggs (DD 591)who had a grip like a vice. I shook his huge hand and couldn't believe it belonged to an 89 year old man. It was recounted at the ceremony that he and another town veteran had struggled to the fantail to leap off just as the destroyer went down off Okinawa in '45. USS Twiggs sank quickly, hit by both a torpedo and a kamikaze.  And there the story could have stopped.

It was only later that same day that I learned the whispered full story. The other man was a veteran from our town too. After the sinking he never applied for a 30 survivor's leave (you got to go home) and would never talk to anyone about the sinking. The second man has never shown up for any veterans' functions in the intervening decades.

The untold part of the story was the second man frozen up and that our honoree had to beat him badly to drag him out of the DD with those vice-grip hands. Of course you can't get a medal for saving someone unless you explain why the other man needed saving. If you keep his secret, you get no medal. It is a zero sum game, to be a hero, someone you know must be known as something less.

Vice-grip wears no medal for that incident.

Yes, there are some damned gritty guys out there, some who have to bite their tongues and skin their knuckles.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9809-895+1e.htm, number 127283, was edited on Tue Nov 8 at 14:55:20
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9809-887+1e.htm

Okinawa...USS Twiggs

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Memorial Day has historically had less application for sailors because of the simple fact many sailors had no gravestones to be decorated. Watery, unmarked graves present a problem. Ships are battlefields that disappear in mere minutes with evidence, witnesses, and memories, for good and for bad.

Here in Fairfield and in other local New England coastal towns we have a ceremony pierside and then a line of boats proceed into the Long Island Sound and someone, an honored someone, casts a wreath upon the waters. As a senior captain, I generally am asked to emcee these ceremonies.

Several years ago, the wreath-caster was lanterned-jawed, snipe from our town,  a veteran of the sinking of USS Twiggs (DD 591)who had a grip like a vice. I shook his huge hand and couldn't believe it belonged to an 89 year old man. It was recounted at the ceremony that he and another town veteran had struggled to the fantail to leap off just as the destroyer went down off Okinawa in '45. USS Twiggs sank quickly, hit by both a torpedo and a kamikaze.  And there the story could have stopped.

It was only later that same day that I learned the whispered full story. The other man was a veteran from our town too. After the sinking he never applied for a 30 survivor's leave (you got to go home) and would never talk to anyone about the sinking. The second man has never shown up for any veterans' functions in the intervening decades.

The untold part of the story was the second man had frozen and that our honoree had to beat him badly to drag him semi-conscious out of the DD with those vice-grip hands.

Of course you can't get a medal for saving someone unless you explain why the other man needed saving. If you keep his secret, you get no medal. It is a zero sum game.  To be a hero, someone you know must be known as something less and lose something.

Vice-grip wears no medal for that incident.

There are some damned gritty guys out there, some who have to bite their tongues and skin their knuckles.  They are not confined to WWII veterans.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Tue Nov 8 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9809-899+1e.htm, number 127283, was edited on Tue Nov 8 at 14:59:02
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9809-895+1e.htm

Okinawa...USS Twiggs

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Memorial Day has historically had less application for sailors because of the simple fact many sailors had no gravestones to be decorated. Watery, unmarked graves present a problem. Ships are battlefields that disappear in mere minutes with evidence, witnesses, and memories, for good and for bad.

Here in Fairfield and in other local New England coastal towns we have a ceremony pierside and then a line of boats proceed into the Long Island Sound and someone, an honored someone, casts a wreath upon the waters. As a senior captain, I generally am asked to emcee these ceremonies.

Several years ago, the wreath-caster was lanterned-jawed, snipe from our town,  a veteran of the sinking of USS Twiggs (DD 591)who had a grip like a vice. I shook his huge hand and couldn't believe it belonged to an 89 year old man. It was recounted at the ceremony that he and another town veteran had struggled to the fantail to leap off just as the destroyer went down off Okinawa in '45. USS Twiggs sank quickly, hit by both a torpedo and a kamikaze.  And there the story could have stopped.

It was only later that same day that I learned the whispered full story. The other man was a veteran from our town too. After the sinking he never applied for a 30 survivor's leave (you got to go home) and would never talk to anyone about the sinking. The second man has never shown up for any veterans' functions in the intervening decades.

The untold part of the story was the second man had frozen and that our honoree had to beat him badly to drag him semi-conscious out of the DD with those vice-grip hands.

Of course you can't get a medal for saving someone unless you explain why the other man needed saving. If you keep his secret, you get no medal. It is a zero sum game.  To be a hero, someone you know must be known as something less and lose something.

Vice-grip wears no medal for that incident.

There are some damned gritty guys out there, some who have to bite their tongues and skin their knuckles.  They are not confined to WWII veterans. www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/petty-officer-michael-thorntons-uncommon-rescue/  In this instance did lose something, but hardly the regard of his shipmates.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Tue Nov 8 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9809-1012+1e.htm, number 127283, was edited on Tue Nov 8 at 16:52:27
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9809-899+1e.htm

Okinawa...USS Twiggs

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Memorial Day has historically had less application for sailors because of the simple fact many sailors had no gravestones to be decorated. Watery, unmarked graves present a problem. Ships are battlefields that disappear in mere minutes with evidence, witnesses, and memories, for good and for bad.

Here in Fairfield and in other local New England coastal towns we have a ceremony pierside and then a line of boats proceed into the Long Island Sound and someone, an honored someone, casts a wreath upon the waters. As a senior captain, I generally am asked to emcee these ceremonies.

Several years ago, the wreath-caster was lanterned-jawed, snipe from our town,  a veteran of the sinking of USS Twiggs (DD 591)who had a grip like a vice. I shook his huge hand and couldn't believe it belonged to an 89 year old man. It was recounted at the ceremony that he and another town veteran had struggled to the fantail to leap off just as the destroyer went down off Okinawa in '45. USS Twiggs sank quickly, hit by both a torpedo and a kamikaze.  And there the story could have stopped.

It was only later that same day that I learned the whispered full story. The other man was a veteran from our town too. After the sinking he never applied for a 30 survivor's leave (you got to go home) and would never talk to anyone about the sinking. The second man has never shown up for any veterans' functions in the intervening decades.

The untold part of the story was the second man had frozen and that our honoree had to beat him badly to drag him semi-conscious out of the DD with those vice-grip hands.

Of course you can't get a medal for saving someone unless you explain why the other man needed saving. If you keep his secret, you get no medal. It is a zero sum game.  To be a hero, someone you know must be known as something less, and lose something.

Vice-grip wears no medal for that incident.

There are some damned gritty guys out there, some who have to bite their tongues and skin their knuckles.  They are not confined to WWII veterans. www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/petty-officer-michael-thorntons-uncommon-rescue/  In this instance Tom Norris did lose something, but hardly the regard of his shipmates.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Tue Nov 8 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9809-363-90.htm, number 127284, was posted on Tue Nov 8 at 20:12:08
Election Day! The World Holds Its Breath . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


and the papers hold their front pages:
 photo Screen Shot 2016-11-08 at 10.53.36.png
Hat tip: newlandofwelinton.wordpress.com/tag/day-the-earth-caught-fire/

Message 3288fe0400A-9809-1268+5a.htm, number 127285, was posted on Tue Nov 8 at 21:08:39
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9809-740+5a.htm

Re: What to Drink on Election Night

jag wag


How curious you should post this right now as I sit at my desk at home drinking an Old Fashioned and checking in on the results every few minutes.  I fear it's the only thing that will get me through a long night.

On Tue Nov 8, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>' . . If the current Clinton-Trump contest has you longing for the days when you could simultaneously exercise your franchise and metabolize your alcohol, I humbly nominate the old-fashioned cocktail . . In 1806, the editor of a Hudson, N.Y., newspaper called the Balance and Columbian Repository replied to a reader confused about a recent passing reference to “cock-tail”:
>
>"Cock-tail, then is a stimulating liquor, composed of spirits of any kind, sugar, water and bitters. It … is supposed to be an excellent electioneering potion inasmuch as it renders the heart stout and bold, at the same time that it fuddles the head. It is said also, to be of great use to a democratic candidate: because, a person having swallowed a glass of it, is ready to swallow any thing else." . .
>

>
>Old-Fashioned Whiskey Cocktail

>2 oz. rye or bourbon whiskey
>
¼ oz. simple syrup

>2 or more dashes Angostura bitters and/or orange bitters
>
Garnish: Lemon twist or orange twist or, in the best of all possible worlds, both.

>Pour bitters, syrup, and whiskey into an ice-filled old-fashioned glass and stir. Add citrus twist(s). '

>What to Drink on Election Night [Bloomberg]


Message 3288fe0400A-9809-1272+1e.htm, number 127286, was posted on Tue Nov 8 at 21:12:26
in reply to 46d1c35700A-9809-625-30.htm

Re: WW2 - the Pacific

jag wag


I highly recommend "Pacific Crucible" by Ian Toll about the war in the Pacific in 1941 and 1942.  It's the first in the "Pacific War Trilogy".  The second volume (whose title currently escapes me) is also out.  I'm saving that read for my annual trip to Maui in January.  Toll also wrote "Six Frigates" about the founding of the US Navy.

On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
-----------------------
>I've been reading a bit about the months after Pearl Harbor. Specifically the Navy/Marine activities in the pacific.
>Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, Midway. Fascinating stuff.
>The technical transition. The heroism. The luck...good and bad.
>Epic stuff.
>Jack and Maturin would have fit right in.


Message 46d1c35700A-9809-1309+1e.htm, number 127287, was posted on Tue Nov 8 at 21:48:57
in reply to 3288fe0400A-9809-1272+1e.htm

Re^2: WW2 - the Pacific

Max


I've ordered it.
What did you think of Neptunes Inferno?




n Tue Nov 8, jag wag wrote
---------------------------
>I highly recommend "Pacific Crucible" by Ian Toll about the war in the Pacific in 1941 and 1942.  It's the first in the "Pacific War Trilogy".  The second volume (whose title currently escapes me) is also out.  I'm saving that read for my annual trip to Maui in January.  Toll also wrote "Six Frigates" about the founding of the US Navy.

>On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>I've been reading a bit about the months after Pearl Harbor. Specifically the Navy/Marine activities in the pacific.
>>Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, Midway. Fascinating stuff.
>>The technical transition. The heroism. The luck...good and bad.
>>Epic stuff.
>>Jack and Maturin would have fit right in.


Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-464-07.htm, number 127288, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 07:44:08
DemExit!!!!

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


A clean sweep by all hands. Bravo Zulu, Delta Tango.

It was clearly those 70 calls I made for the campaign to Maine that turned the tide. That and the fact that half America was earning less in real dollars than it had 17 years ago, that real unemployment was 10%, and the elite had their own agenda and they were too important for the rules to apply to them.

Steve Hilton called it.  insider.foxnews.com/2016/11/09/steve-hilton-hidden-voters-swinging-election-they-did-brexit

Not so weird at all, Max.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-464+07.htm, number 127288, was edited on Wed Nov 9 at 08:36:45
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9810-464-07.htm

DemExit!!!!

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


A clean sweep by all hands. Bravo Zulu, Delta Tango.

It was clearly those 70 calls I made for the campaign to Maine that turned the tide. That and the fact that half America was earning less in real dollars than it had 17 years ago, that real unemployment was 10%, and the elite had their own agenda and they were too important for the rules to comply with them.

Steve Hilton called it.  insider.foxnews.com/2016/11/09/steve-hilton-hidden-voters-swinging-election-they-did-brexit

Not so weird at all, Max.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 9 by the author ]


Message 4588233100A-9810-564+59.htm, number 127289, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 09:23:49
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9809-363-90.htm

Capt. Jack Aubrey: Do you want to see your Beauty Queens groped without recourse?

WTLL


Crew: No!

Capt. Jack Aubrey: Want to call that raggedy-ass Horror Clown your President?
Crew: No!

Capt. Jack Aubrey: You want your children to read Breitbart?"
Crew: No!

Capt. Jack Aubrey: Right, Blacks,Women, Latinos, Larboard Voting Machines!
Crew: Huzzah!

/ship blows up, burns to the water line, the "Acheron" sails away, disgusted by even the idea of making her a prize or rescuing any poorly educated foremast Jacks....


Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-640+59.htm, number 127290, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 10:40:37
in reply to 4588233100A-9810-564+59.htm

Gunner, are the guns ready?

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


  "What luck?" asked Jack. "This calls for a celebration."

  "Well, sir," said Killick, "Joe Plaice says he would venture upon a lobscouse, and Jemmy Ducks believes he could manage a goose-pie."

  "What about Mrs Williams? Shall she prepare something? Shall she dine with us?"

  "No, no, absolutely not" said Jack. No one with the shape of contrary elitist views should join in a project to be enjoyed all around, much less assigned the simplest task of feeding the goats, buttering bread, or else as as trifling, he mused studying the salt shaker.

  I sees, eating crow ain't, init, thought Killick.  We'll all get to relish the fine wine of liberal tears.  Mrs. William and her ilk be hanged, them or her kind being lower that that green beard that flowed beneath their ship's bottom as it swimmed.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-642+59.htm, number 127290, was edited on Wed Nov 9 at 10:42:17
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9810-640+59.htm

Gunner, are the guns ready?

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


  "What luck?" asked Jack. "This calls for a celebration."

  "Well, sir," said Killick, "Joe Plaice says he would venture upon a lobscouse, and Jemmy Ducks believes he could manage a goose-pie."

  "What about Mrs Williams? Shall she prepare something? Shall she dine with us?"

  "No, no, absolutely not" said Jack. No one with the shape of contrary elitist views should join in a project to be enjoyed all around, much less assigned the simplest task of feeding the goats, buttering bread, or else as as trifling, he mused studying the salt shaker.

  I sees, eating crow ain't, init, thought Killick.  We'll all get to relish the fine wine of liberal tears.  Mrs. William and her ilk be hanged, them or her kind being lower that that green beard that flowed beneath their ship's bottom as it swimmed.

  "Definitely no soup for her," Maturin added with a knowing glance.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 9 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-663+59.htm, number 127290, was edited on Wed Nov 9 at 11:03:20
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9810-642+59.htm

Gunner, are the guns ready?

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


  "What luck?" asked Jack. "This calls for a celebration."

  "Well, sir," said Killick, "Joe Plaice says he would venture upon a lobscouse, and Jemmy Ducks believes he could manage a goose-pie."

  "What about Mrs Williams? Shall she prepare something? Shall she dine with us?"

  "No, no, absolutely not" said Jack. No one with the shape of contrary elitist views should join in this project to be enjoyed all around, much less assigned the simplest task of feeding the goats, buttering bread, or anything else as as trifling, he mused studying the salt shaker.

  I sees, eating crow ain't, init, thought Killick.  So we won't get  get to relish the fine wine of liberal tears, but just the thought was sweet.  Mrs. William and her ilk be hanged, them or her kind being lower that that green beard that flowed beneath their ship's bottom as it swimmed.

  "Definitely, no soup for her," Maturin added with a knowing glance and rapier-like insight.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 9 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-664+59.htm, number 127290, was edited on Wed Nov 9 at 11:03:53
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9810-663+59.htm

Gunner, are the guns manned and ready?

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


  "What luck?" asked Jack. "This calls for a celebration."

  "Well, sir," said Killick, "Joe Plaice says he would venture upon a lobscouse, and Jemmy Ducks believes he could manage a goose-pie."

  "What about Mrs Williams? Shall she prepare something? Shall she dine with us?"

  "No, no, absolutely not" said Jack. No one with the shape of contrary elitist views should join in this project to be enjoyed all around, much less assigned the simplest task of feeding the goats, buttering bread, or anything else as as trifling, he mused studying the salt shaker.

  I sees, eating crow ain't, init, thought Killick.  So we won't get  get to relish the fine wine of liberal tears, but just the thought was sweet.  Mrs. William and her ilk be hanged, them or her kind being lower that that green beard that flowed beneath their ship's bottom as it swimmed.

  "Definitely, no soup for her," Maturin added with a knowing glance and rapier-like insight.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 9 by the author ]


Message 4086d8d300A-9810-699+1d.htm, number 127291, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 11:40:29
in reply to 46d1c35700A-9809-1309+1e.htm

Re^3: WW2 - the Pacific

YA


IANJW, but it was a pretty good narrative. Advancing CRS prevents me from going in depth.
Next time out, I will take notes on dramatis personae so I'll get less confused. Which will be when I pick up his latest:
www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/231630/the-fleet-at-flood-tide-by-james-d-hornfischer/

On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
-----------------------
>I've ordered it.
>What did you think of Neptunes Inferno?
>
>
>
>
>n Tue Nov 8, jag wag wrote
>---------------------------
>>I highly recommend "Pacific Crucible" by Ian Toll about the war in the Pacific in 1941 and 1942.  It's the first in the "Pacific War Trilogy".  The second volume (whose title currently escapes me) is also out.  I'm saving that read for my annual trip to Maui in January.  Toll also wrote "Six Frigates" about the founding of the US Navy.

>>On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
>>-----------------------
>>>I've been reading a bit about the months after Pearl Harbor. Specifically the Navy/Marine activities in the pacific.
>>>Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, Midway. Fascinating stuff.
>>>The technical transition. The heroism. The luck...good and bad.
>>>Epic stuff.
>>>Jack and Maturin would have fit right in.


Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-464+07.htm, number 127291, was edited on Wed Nov 9 at 11:52:42
DemExit!!!!

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


A clean sweep by all hands. Bravo Zulu, Delta Tango.

It was clearly those 70 calls I made for the campaign to Maine that turned the tide. That and the fact that half America was earning less in real dollars than it had 17 years ago, that real unemployment was 10%, and the elite had their own agenda and they were too important for the rules to comply with them.

Steve Hilton called it.  insider.foxnews.com/2016/11/09/steve-hilton-hidden-voters-swinging-election-they-did-brexit

Cher, Bryan Cranston, Barbara Streisand, Alec Baldwin, Samuel Jackson, Neve Campbell, Whoopi Goldberg, Miley Cyrus, Lena Dunhan, Amy Schumer, Jon Stewart, Chelsea Handler, Al Sharpton, Ne-Yo, Raven Symone, George Lopez and the rest of you celebrities, a luxury private train has been chartered to whisk you to Thetford Mines, Quebec.

Not so weird at all, Max.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 9 by the author ]


Message 4babef9cUWK-9810-775+07.htm, number 127292, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 12:56:03
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9810-464+07.htm

A Picture for Capt. Chortle

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Admiral Trompe's triumph at the Battle of the Downs. The wreckage of the Spanish ships looks like the staggered confusion of the media last night.





On Wed Nov 9, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
>A clean sweep by all hands. Bravo Zulu, Delta Tango.

>It was clearly those 70 calls I made for the campaign to Maine that turned the tide. That and the fact that half America was earning less in real dollars than it had 17 years ago, that real unemployment was 10%, and the elite had their own agenda and they were too important for the rules to comply with them.

>Steve Hilton called it.  insider.foxnews.com/2016/11/09/steve-hilton-hidden-voters-swinging-election-they-did-brexit

>Cher, Bryan Cranston, Barbara Streisand, Alec Baldwin, Samuel Jackson, Neve Campbell, Whoopi Goldberg, Miley Cyrus, Lena Dunhan, Amy Schumer, Jon Stewart, Chelsea Handler, Al Sharpton, Ne-Yo, Raven Symone, George Lopez and the rest of you celebrities, a luxury private train has been chartered to whisk you to Thetford Mines, Quebec.

>Not so weird at all, Max.

>r,

>Caltrop
>


Message 50e5a913p13-9810-849+07.htm, number 127293, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 14:09:39
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9810-464+07.htm

' . . half America was earning less in real dollars than it had 17 years ago . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This is the crux - what baffles me and will I think baffle The Donald is what to do about what is an inevitable consequence of globalisation:

1: Asia is full of billions of workers who are younger, fitter, hungrier and better educated than their counterparts in the US - or in Britain. And willing to work for a fifth or a tenth of what we are used to.

2: Automation is eating jobs and waits to eat a whole lot more if real wages rise.

Waiting in the wings is the rapid rise of solar electricity which is already cheap and will be virtually free in the sunny parts of the world, disrupting everything but ultimately bringing abundance to all.

What I wonder, is DT's 4-Year Plan to deal with these challenges? A wall, a Wonderful Wall, to keep the world at bay?


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9810-939+18.htm, number 127294, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 15:38:41
in reply to 041077a400A-9804-813-30.htm

Re: Pronunciation?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"Polish"?  I keep thinking of Jagiello as Swedish, and therefore in my head pronounce both the 'j' and the 'g' as an English 'y':  /ja'jElo/

On Thu Nov 3, CJP wrote
-----------------------
>I picked a volume out of the row of the tome on my bookshelf at random yesterday and started to read.  I was confounded that after all these years and so many (re)readings, I have yet to satisfy myself on the pronunciation of "Jagiello."  Upon consideration of this embarrassing revelation, I realized that - if only silently between my ears.
>Is the "J" sounded like a "J" or a "Y?"
>Is the "g" hard or soft?
>Is the "iello" "yellow" or "eelo?"
>Are the two "ll's" "l's" or said like a "y" as in some languages?  
>I'd really enjoy hearing what you guys have been saying to yourselves for all these years.  And, yes, I'm glad the site is back up even though I've been silently lurking in the back corner.


Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-946+07.htm, number 127295, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 15:45:57
in reply to 4babef9cUWK-9810-775+07.htm

Ah yes, Chortle the verb and noun

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Chortled: "Combination of 'chuckle' and 'snort'." (OED)word invented by Lewis Carroll.

"And, as in uffish though he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!"

Many's the moment I've spent in uffish thought trying to fathom why this board has such a problem relating the history presented in "the canon" to the present world we live in.  Oh yes, Aubrey and Maturin would have been enchanted with the wooden woman who sells influence to Middle Eastern potentates. They would have marveled at that same woman handling cyphered messages and claiming she only carelessly let them fall into the hands of others or allow them "disappear."  How do you think such "carelessness" would have been rewarded in the 19th Century? Probably with an accident.

Well, off I go, whiffling and burbling, to fight evil foreign and domestic with manxome keystrokes.

r,

Caltrop



Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-947+07.htm, number 127295, was edited on Wed Nov 9 at 15:46:41
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9810-946+07.htm

Ah yes, "chortle" the verb and noun

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Chortled: "Combination of 'chuckle' and 'snort'." (OED)word invented by Lewis Carroll.

"And, as in uffish though he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!"

Many's the moment I've spent in uffish thought trying to fathom why this board has such a problem relating the history presented in "the canon" to the present world we live in.  Oh yes, Aubrey and Maturin would have been enchanted with the wooden woman who sells influence to Middle Eastern potentates. They would have marveled at that same woman handling cyphered messages and claiming she only carelessly let them fall into the hands of others or allow them "disappear."  How do you think such "carelessness" would have been rewarded in the 19th Century? Probably with an accident.

Well, off I go, whiffling and burbling, to fight evil foreign and domestic with manxome keystrokes.

r,

Caltrop


[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 9 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-954+07.htm, number 127295, was edited on Wed Nov 9 at 15:54:04
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9810-947+07.htm

Ah yes, "chortle" the verb and noun

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Chortled: "Combination of 'chuckle' and 'snort'." (OED)word invented by Lewis Carroll.

"And, as in uffish though he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!"

Many's the moment I've spent in uffish thought trying to fathom why this board has such a problem relating the history presented in "the canon" to the present world we live in.  Oh yes, Aubrey and Maturin would have been enchanted with the wooden woman who sells influence to Middle Eastern potentates. They would have marveled at that same woman handling cyphered messages and claiming she only carelessly let them fall into the hands of others or allow them "disappear."  How do you think such "carelessness" would have been rewarded in the 19th Century? Probably with an accident.

Well, off I go, whiffling and burbling, to fight evil foreign and domestic with manxome keystrokes.

How could have forgotten Rosie O'Donnell and schoolmate George Stephanopoulus for gratis tickets on the luxury passenger train to Thetford Mills, Quebec?

r,

Caltrop


[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 9 by the author ]


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9810-955+07.htm, number 127296, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 15:55:50
in reply to 4babef9cUWK-9810-775+07.htm

This is not me exulting

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I dislike both candidates about equally—if anything I dislike Trump a little more equally than Hillary.  So the following isn't about the candidates:  Haven't we seen this before?  I had the definite impression that Hillary had a slight but significant lead before the polls opened.  Then last night I went to pick up a pizza; they had a TV on and I stopped to watch.  (Technically I have a TV in the house I rent, but I'm not sure how to turn it on; it hasn't been on since I moved in a few years ago.)  At that point, just after eight I think, the electoral votes were slightly in Hillary's favor and one of the commentators was careful to add that it was still possible, theoretically, for Trump to win.

I strongly suspect that the left-ish bent of the news moguls leads to a left-ish bent in their predictions as well, perhaps out of wishful thinking or maybe they don't want to trigger a shift in the voting ("naming calls, Joe").  Maybe the lesson here is that any predictions by left-ish media should be tweaked by about 8% to the right before assimilating.  Presumably the same applies to right-ish commentators as well.

On Wed Nov 9, Culling Simples wrote
-----------------------------------
>Admiral Trompe's triumph at the Battle of the Downs. The wreckage of the Spanish ships looks like the staggered confusion of the media last night.

>


Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-975+07.htm, number 127297, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 16:15:32
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9810-955+07.htm

Re: This is not me exulting

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


You need to accord the press less and less credence with every passing word. It is not a rightwing thing, it is a market thing.

One thing to be aware of is there has been a "sea change" with respect to reporters. The old school reporters have been put out to pasture and cheaper newbies with little ethical training have taken their place. The  internet has killed the printed word, and newspapers don't have the money to recruit reporters with experience and expertise.

Ben Rhodes, a member of Obama's staff observed this and figured it how to play it.

“All these newspapers used to have foreign bureaus,” he said. “Now they don’t. They call us to explain to them what’s happening in Moscow and Cairo. Most of the outlets are reporting on world events from Washington. The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old, and their only reporting experience consists of being around political campaigns. That’s a sea change. They literally know nothing.”

Rhodes set up a team of staffers who were focused on promoting the deal, which apparently included the feeding of talking points at useful times in the news cycle to foreign policy experts who were favorably disposed toward it. “We created an echo chamber,” he told the magazine. “They [the seemingly independent experts] were saying things that validated what we had given them to say.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/obama-official-says-he-pushed-a-narrative-to-media-to-sell-the-iran-nuclear-deal/2016/05/06/5b90d984-13a1-11e6-8967-7ac733c56f12_story.html

On that happy, I must point out a caution with respect to the admiral's name, "Trompe" which is probably related to the name "Trump."  Trompe as in "trompe d'oeil" which means trick of the eye.  Trompe means "trick."

Trump probably used the Democrats' echo chamber against them.  They kept up the false accusations and false polls and he let them near th eend, using their echo chambers packed with newbie ethically-challenged reporters against them against them. The general public bought the polls.  Trump's close second position inspired his already dedicated followers, and discouraged Clinton's already self-satisfied, but hardly dedicated followers to get casual.

r,

Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-9810-981+07.htm, number 127298, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 16:21:34
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9810-954+07.htm

‘O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!’ He chortled in his joy.

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Nov 9, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
>Chortled: "Combination of 'chuckle' and 'snort'." (OED)word invented by Lewis Carroll.

>"And, as in uffish though he stood,
>The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
>came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
>And burbled as it came!"
.................

‘chortle, v. and n.  Quite unconnected with churtle v. = chirp.
A. v. intr. A factitious word introduced by the author of Through the Looking-Glass, and jocularly used by others after him, app. with some suggestion of chuckle, and of snort. Also trans., to utter or sing with a ‘chortling’ intonation . .
1871   ‘L. Carroll’ Through Looking-glass i. 24   ‘O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!’ He chortled in his joy.
1876   W. Besant & J. Rice Golden Butterfly III. ii. 25   It makes the cynic and the worldly-minded man to chuckle and chortle with an open joy.
1886   Referee 18 Aug. (Ware),   Mr. Wilford Morgan has been engaged to chortle the famous song, ‘Here's to the maiden of bashful fifteen’.
1887   Athenæum 3 Dec. 751/1   A means of exciting cynical ‘chortling’.
1888   Daily News 10 Jan. 5/2   So may chortle the Anthropophagi.
1889   Referee 29 Dec.   Many present on Boxing Night fully expected that when he appeared he would chortle a chansonette or two.’ (OED)


Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-984+07.htm, number 127299, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 16:24:40
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9810-849+07.htm

Re: ' . . half America was earning less in real dollars than it had 17 years ago . . '

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Nov 9, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------


>What I wonder, is DT's 4-Year Plan to deal with these challenges? A wall, a Wonderful Wall, to keep the world at bay?
>

Off the top of my head.

He has not taken me into his confidence though I once spent four hours standing with my wife in a gymnasium whose air conditioning had been sabotaged waiting for him to speak.

First he's going to champion "fair trade" over "free trade." Our proprietary knowledge is going out the windows wholesale and being used against us.  There are going to have to be some rules on use of proprietary knowledge and currency adjustments.  Also we are bound by environmental regulations here. We are bound by workmen's comp here, they must be bound by something similar there. They are going to have to be bound by similar rules there.  These minor measures will have some impact.

Second, there is going to have to encouragement of manufacturing on US soil again.  There's going to have to be brown field remediation grants to the old rustbelt cities and other incentives.

And other things.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9810-989+59.htm, number 127290, was edited on Wed Nov 9 at 16:28:46
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9810-664+59.htm

Gunner, are the guns manned and ready?

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


  "What luck?" asked Jack. "This calls for a celebration."

  "Well, sir," said Killick, "Joe Plaice says he would venture upon a lobscouse, and Jemmy Ducks believes he could manage a goose-pie."  "What about Mrs Williams? Shall she prepare something? Shall she dine with us?"

  "No, no, absolutely not" said Jack. No one with the shape of contrary elitist views should join in this project to be enjoyed all around, much less assigned the simplest task of feeding the goats, buttering bread, or anything else as as trifling, he mused studying the salt shaker.

  I sees, eating crow ain't, init, thought Killick.  So we won't get to relish the fine wine of liberal tears.  In any event, the thought was sweet.  Mrs. William and her ilk be hanged, them or her kind being lower than that green beard that flowed beneath their ship's bottom as it swimmed.

  "Definitely, no soup for her," Maturin added with a knowing glance and rapier-like insight.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 9 by the author ]


Message 31bb2d4700A-9810-1044+07.htm, number 127300, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 17:24:31
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9810-981+07.htm

Dies irae (nfm)

wombat


lacrimosa dies irae

Message 4588233100A-9810-1046-07.htm, number 127301, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 17:26:20
Private powder a little to rich for any Captain.

WTLL


foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/each-round-for-the-uss-zumwalt-costs-800-000-and-the-n-1788765510

Message b040dbfccb5-9810-1150+07.htm, number 127302, was posted on Wed Nov 9 at 19:10:11
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9810-464+07.htm

A couple of notes...

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



Hillary Clinton won the popular vote, just as Al Gore did. This is the second time in recent history that the Electoral College system has landed us with a doofus whom we did not, collectively, vote for.

A survey of voting patterns in the various states makes it quite clear that Libertarian voters turned the tide and elected a Fascist, which would be amusingly ironic if it weren't so horrifying.


Message 50e5a913p13-9811-328+17.htm, number 127303, was posted on Thu Nov 10 at 05:28:02
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9810-939+18.htm

' . . a famous and royal Lithuanian and Polish surname . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>"Polish"?  I keep thinking of Jagiello as Swedish, and therefore in my head pronounce both the 'j' and the 'g' as an English 'y':  /ja'jElo/

I think he was a Lithuanian - an idea supported by:

'Last name: Jagiello . . this is a famous and royal Lithuanian and Polish surname in spite of its rather Italian appearance. Dating back to the 14th century, it is one of the royal surnames of Poland, being descended from Wladyshaw Jagiello (1348 - 1434), the King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania, from where the family originated.

The Jagiello dynasty ruled the two countries until 1572, and it may be said that this was the high point of Polish and Baltic influence throughout Europe . . '

www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Jagiello#ixzz4PbGI9ciT

The history of Lithuania is complicated; in 1795 it and Poland were annexed mainly into the Russian Empire until 1918.


Message 3288fe0400A-9811-539+1c.htm, number 127304, was posted on Thu Nov 10 at 08:59:01
in reply to 46d1c35700A-9809-1309+1e.htm

Re^3: WW2 - the Pacific

jag wag


Have not read it.  Should I?

On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
-----------------------
>I've ordered it.
>What did you think of Neptunes Inferno?
>
>
>
>
>n Tue Nov 8, jag wag wrote
>---------------------------
>>I highly recommend "Pacific Crucible" by Ian Toll about the war in the Pacific in 1941 and 1942.  It's the first in the "Pacific War Trilogy".  The second volume (whose title currently escapes me) is also out.  I'm saving that read for my annual trip to Maui in January.  Toll also wrote "Six Frigates" about the founding of the US Navy.

>>On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
>>-----------------------
>>>I've been reading a bit about the months after Pearl Harbor. Specifically the Navy/Marine activities in the pacific.
>>>Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, Midway. Fascinating stuff.
>>>The technical transition. The heroism. The luck...good and bad.
>>>Epic stuff.
>>>Jack and Maturin would have fit right in.


Message 182d66a00Nn-9811-557+06.htm, number 127305, was posted on Thu Nov 10 at 09:17:19
in reply to b040dbfccb5-9810-1150+07.htm

I'm always amazed...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Nov 9, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------
>>Hillary Clinton won the popular vote, just as Al Gore did. This is the second time in recent history that the Electoral College system has landed us with a doofus whom we did not, collectively, vote for.

>A survey of voting patterns in the various states makes it quite clear that Libertarian voters turned the tide and elected a Fascist, which would be amusingly ironic if it weren't so horrifying.

I'm always amazed that a man of your intense convictions and superior knowledge does not return to the US to set things straight.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9811-558+06.htm, number 127297, was edited on Thu Nov 10 at 09:18:28
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9810-975+07.htm

Re: This is not me exalting

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


You need to accord the press less and less credence with every passing word. It is not a rightwing thing, it is a market thing.

One thing to be aware of is there has been a "sea change" with respect to reporters. The old school reporters have been put out to pasture and cheaper newbies with little ethical training have taken their place. The  internet has killed the printed word, and newspapers don't have the money to recruit reporters with experience and expertise.

Ben Rhodes, a member of Obama's staff observed this and figured it how to play it.

“All these newspapers used to have foreign bureaus,” he said. “Now they don’t. They call us to explain to them what’s happening in Moscow and Cairo. Most of the outlets are reporting on world events from Washington. The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old, and their only reporting experience consists of being around political campaigns. That’s a sea change. They literally know nothing.”

Rhodes set up a team of staffers who were focused on promoting the deal, which apparently included the feeding of talking points at useful times in the news cycle to foreign policy experts who were favorably disposed toward it. “We created an echo chamber,” he told the magazine. “They [the seemingly independent experts] were saying things that validated what we had given them to say.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/obama-official-says-he-pushed-a-narrative-to-media-to-sell-the-iran-nuclear-deal/2016/05/06/5b90d984-13a1-11e6-8967-7ac733c56f12_story.html

On that happy, I must point out a caution with respect to the admiral's name, "Trompe" which is probably related to the name "Trump."  Trompe as in "trompe d'oeil" which means trick of the eye.  Trompe means "trick."

Trump probably used the Democrats' echo chamber against them.  They kept up the false accusations and false polls and he let them near th eend, using their echo chambers packed with newbie ethically-challenged reporters against them against them. The general public bought the polls.  Trump's close second position inspired his already dedicated followers, and discouraged Clinton's already self-satisfied, but hardly dedicated followers to get casual.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Thu Nov 10 by the author ]


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9811-589+06.htm, number 127306, was posted on Thu Nov 10 at 09:49:36
in reply to b040dbfccb5-9810-1150+07.htm

Clinton IS WINNING the popular vote

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Last I heard (about an hour ago), the popular votes were still being counted and Hillary was leading by about 0.3%.  The text of the article made it clear that this is still far too close to call.  The headline writer, however, chose to say that she "is winning" the popular vote, so you have to read beyond the headlines to avoid the impression that the issue is decided.

By the way, I refer to Hillary by her first name and Trump by his last not out of disrespect for Hillary, but—a conscious choice—simply because there are two Clintons.

On Wed Nov 9, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------
>Hillary Clinton won the popular vote, just as Al Gore did. This is the second time in recent history that the Electoral College system has landed us with a doofus whom we did not, collectively, vote for.

>A survey of voting patterns in the various states makes it quite clear that Libertarian voters turned the tide and elected a Fascist, which would be amusingly ironic if it weren't so horrifying.


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9811-598+06.htm, number 127307, was posted on Thu Nov 10 at 09:58:01
in reply to b040dbfccb5-9810-1150+07.htm

"...elected a Fascist..."

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Well, maybe he'll get the trains to run on time :-).

On Wed Nov 9, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------
>Hillary Clinton won the popular vote, just as Al Gore did. This is the second time in recent history that the Electoral College system has landed us with a doofus whom we did not, collectively, vote for.

>A survey of voting patterns in the various states makes it quite clear that Libertarian voters turned the tide and elected a Fascist, which would be amusingly ironic if it weren't so horrifying.


Message 58cae225cb5-9811-1053+06.htm, number 127308, was posted on Thu Nov 10 at 17:32:44
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9811-557+06.htm

Re: I'm always amazed...

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



>I'm always amazed that a man of your intense convictions and superior knowledge does not return to the US to set things straight.

They've invented a thing called a telegraph that permits me to do my lobbying from a distance. I'm sure they'll get one in Connecticut eventually.


Message 182d66a00Nn-9811-1386+06.htm, number 127309, was posted on Thu Nov 10 at 23:05:52
in reply to 58cae225cb5-9811-1053+06.htm

Re^2: I'm always amazed...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Thu Nov 10, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>I'm always amazed that a man of your intense convictions and superior knowledge does not return to the US to set things straight.

>They've invented a thing called a telegraph that permits me to do my lobbying from a distance. I'm sure they'll get one in Connecticut eventually.

Oh, I can see the pronounced wonders you achieved through both your assessments and your absenteeism.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9811-1413+06.htm, number 127310, was posted on Thu Nov 10 at 23:32:41
in reply to 31bb2d4700A-9810-1044+07.htm

RIP

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Nov 9, wombat wrote
--------------------------
>lacrimosa dies irae

We are gathered here to inter this particular campaign, not to praise it.

Which brings us to much vaunted Obama approval rating.   Some pundit pointed out that when an incumbent present leaves with a very high approval rating, the candidate from the incumbent's party receives a potent leg up. With a series of foreign policy disasters and the failure of Obamacare trailing in his wake. I doubt he had a double digit approval rating at all. In any event, If he did, Hillary still had such a tin-ear for reading the crowd (even with Beyonce the stadium had many empty seats), a habit for placing the emphasis on the wrong WORDS in EVERY climactic PHRASE, only one tactic for trouble (stonewalling), a staff of sycophants from Three Stooges casting, and hubris running in her veins from 55 gallon drums, that she was trailing more chain than Marley's ghost. Even if he could have pulled her along she was generating such a negative force field it was a wonder he didn't implode.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9812-446+05.htm, number 127310, was edited on Fri Nov 11 at 07:25:56
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9811-1413+06.htm

RIP

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Nov 9, wombat wrote
--------------------------
>lacrimosa dies irae

We are gathered here to inter this particular campaign, not to praise it.

Which brings us to much vaunted Obama approval rating.   Some pundit pointed out that when an incumbent present leaves with a very high approval rating, the candidate from the incumbent's party receives a potent leg up. With a series of foreign policy disasters and the failure of Obamacare trailing in his wake. I doubt he had a double digit approval rating at all. In any event, If he did, Hillary still had such a tin-ear for reading the crowd (even with Beyonce the stadium had many empty seats), a habit for placing the emphasis on the wrong WORDS in EVERY climactic PHRASE, only one tactic for trouble (stonewalling), a staff of sycophants from Three Stooges casting, and hubris running in her veins from 55 gallon drums, she was trailing more chain than Marley's ghost. Even if he could have pulled her along she was generating such a negative force field it was a wonder he didn't implode.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Fri Nov 11 by the author ]


Message 419ec81b00A-9812-628+1b.htm, number 127311, was posted on Fri Nov 11 at 10:28:06
in reply to 3288fe0400A-9811-539+1c.htm

Re^4: WW2 - the Pacific

Max



I thought it was terrific. Corrected a number of misconceptions I had held for decades and left me with a greater appreciation of the Navy role.


On Thu Nov 10, jag wag wrote
----------------------------
>Have not read it.  Should I?

>On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>I've ordered it.
>>What did you think of Neptunes Inferno?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>n Tue Nov 8, jag wag wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>I highly recommend "Pacific Crucible" by Ian Toll about the war in the Pacific in 1941 and 1942.  It's the first in the "Pacific War Trilogy".  The second volume (whose title currently escapes me) is also out.  I'm saving that read for my annual trip to Maui in January.  Toll also wrote "Six Frigates" about the founding of the US Navy.

>>>On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
>>>-----------------------
>>>>I've been reading a bit about the months after Pearl Harbor. Specifically the Navy/Marine activities in the pacific.
>>>>Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, Midway. Fascinating stuff.
>>>>The technical transition. The heroism. The luck...good and bad.
>>>>Epic stuff.
>>>>Jack and Maturin would have fit right in.


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9812-643-30.htm, number 127312, was posted on Fri Nov 11 at 10:44:26
"Not my President!"

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


My youth was a long, long time ago and my memory of it is a bit hazy, but I don't doubt that back then I assumed Republicans were full of patriotism and moral virtue and Democrats were self-seeking rapscallions who hated our great country.  I probably never said it in so many words, but the attitude was there.  Since then I've learned better.  Sure, when I really stop and think about it I'm willing to hypothesize that there may be a moral difference, statistically.  But I'm not sure even of that; and most of the time I assume that most Republicans and Democrats have about the same goals and disagree merely on methods.

That assumption is shaken by a recent observation.  When Bush was reëlected there were a lot of Democrats who cried "he's not my President!".  I didn't attribute it to Democrats generally; I just figured it was a handful of poor losers, or maybe five or six handfuls—a thoroughly immoral response on their part but forgivable.  When Obama was elected I was at pains to repudiate that reaction and to declare that Obama is my President.  He still is.

Now I read of thousands demonstrating, loudly asserting "not my President!" again, and even getting violent in at least one such episode.

So someone tell me:  Is there really a moral difference, after all, between Republicans and Democrats?  Trump made noises during the campaign (or so I read) that he might not accept an election that went against him, and he was roundly criticized for it, rightly IMO.  But it was just talk.  Now his critics are actually doing it, not just talking about it.

Do they really want to live in one of those Latin-American countries where every election is followed by riots by the losers?  Because they seem to be trying very hard to produce it here.


Message 041077a400A-9812-724+1e.htm, number 127313, was posted on Fri Nov 11 at 12:04:36
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9812-643-30.htm

Re: "Not my President!"

CJP


Oh, Bob, you've put the plow into some very rich ground here.  I recommend Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" - that's the playbook.  It's not "Democrats" per se, it's the thirst for socialism by the left - even though the mob doesn't understand what that means or what that brings.  Like standing in line for toilet paper in Venezuela.
The country got a taste of it during the last eight years during which the Sanders/Warren crowd was emboldened by catch phrases such as "social justice" and promises of free tuition and massive wealth redistribution schemes such as Obamacare.  
I daresay Joe McCarthy, whose methods were suspect, was basically right.  The roots of Communism run deep, and given half a chance, will topple our Constitution and current form of government if given even half a chance.  Listen for the howls of protest when the President-elect takes office and starts reversing the horde of executive orders issued by Obama.  Conservatives don't march en masse in protest or break windows and flip cars - they vote.  The mobs now shouting four-letter words and burning flags basically want what the other guy has so that in the end, we're all equally miserable.

On Fri Nov 11, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>My youth was a long, long time ago and my memory of it is a bit hazy, but I don't doubt that back then I assumed Republicans were full of patriotism and moral virtue and Democrats were self-seeking rapscallions who hated our great country.  I probably never said it in so many words, but the attitude was there.  Since then I've learned better.  Sure, when I really stop and think about it I'm willing to hypothesize that there may be a moral difference, statistically.  But I'm not sure even of that; and most of the time I assume that most Republicans and Democrats have about the same goals and disagree merely on methods.

>That assumption is shaken by a recent observation.  When Bush was reëlected there were a lot of Democrats who cried "he's not my President!".  I didn't attribute it to Democrats generally; I just figured it was a handful of poor losers, or maybe five or six handfuls—a thoroughly immoral response on their part but forgivable.  When Obama was elected I was at pains to repudiate that reaction and to declare that Obama is my President.  He still is.

>Now I read of thousands demonstrating, loudly asserting "not my President!" again, and even getting violent in at least one such episode.

>So someone tell me:  Is there really a moral difference, after all, between Republicans and Democrats?  Trump made noises during the campaign (or so I read) that he might not accept an election that went against him, and he was roundly criticized for it, rightly IMO.  But it was just talk.  Now his critics are actually doing it, not just talking about it.

>Do they really want to live in one of those Latin-American countries where every election is followed by riots by the losers?  Because they seem to be trying very hard to produce it here.


Message 4981ca22cZn-9812-892+1e.htm, number 127314, was posted on Fri Nov 11 at 14:52:59
in reply to 041077a400A-9812-724+1e.htm

Re^2: "Not my President!"

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Responding first to Bob's statement,

"Trump made noises during the campaign . . . that he might not accept an election that went against him, and he was roundly criticized for it, rightly IMO.  But it was just talk.  Now his critics are actually doing it, not just talking about it."

Yes, it was "just talk" at the time but Trump's followers picked up on his [despicable] message, some threatening armed insurrection if Hillary won.  Since she didn't, we really don't know what would have happened.  We cannot assume that there would not have been protests, especially if Trump rejected the outcome.

For Charlie, communism is dead and isn't about to topple our constitution.  There are only five counties on our planet ruled by a communist party.  Among them, Cuba most strictly adheres to communist principles.  There's little true communism anywhere.

Bernie Sanders is a Social Democrat, the political system followed in many successful democracies, notably in Scandinavia.  Capitalism flourishes and all of their citizens are cared for.  Wages are high, taxes are very high, higher education and medical care are free, standards of living are among the highest in the world, and very few are complaining.  The "right wing" parties in these countries wouldn't change the system; they only argue against practices such as providing benefits to new immigrants/migrants.


On Fri Nov 11, CJP wrote
------------------------
>Oh, Bob, you've put the plow into some very rich ground here.  I recommend Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" - that's the playbook.  It's not "Democrats" per se, it's the thirst for socialism by the left - even though the mob doesn't understand what that means or what that brings.  Like standing in line for toilet paper in Venezuela.
>The country got a taste of it during the last eight years during which the Sanders/Warren crowd was emboldened by catch phrases such as "social justice" and promises of free tuition and massive wealth redistribution schemes such as Obamacare.  
>I daresay Joe McCarthy, whose methods were suspect, was basically right.  The roots of Communism run deep, and given half a chance, will topple our Constitution and current form of government if given even half a chance.  Listen for the howls of protest when the President-elect takes office and starts reversing the horde of executive orders issued by Obama.  Conservatives don't march en masse in protest or break windows and flip cars - they vote.  The mobs now shouting four-letter words and burning flags basically want what the other guy has so that in the end, we're all equally miserable.

>On Fri Nov 11, Bob Bridges wrote (snip)
>--------------------------------
>>Now I read of thousands demonstrating, loudly asserting "not my President!" again, and even getting violent in at least one such episode.

>>So someone tell me:  Is there really a moral difference, after all, between Republicans and Democrats?  Trump made noises during the campaign (or so I read) that he might not accept an election that went against him, and he was roundly criticized for it, rightly IMO.  But it was just talk.  Now his critics are actually doing it, not just talking about it.


Message 041077a400A-9812-1042+1e.htm, number 127315, was posted on Fri Nov 11 at 17:23:23
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9812-892+1e.htm

Re^3: Numbers

CJP


Mark, my friend, you are technically correct about pure communism.  It is disappearing under the weight of its own failures.  But your (Bernie's) argument about the Scandinavian countries really doesn't hold together.  The problem there is a matter of scale.  Most recent population data for the relevant countries is: Norway ~5M, Sweden ~10M, Denmark ~6M, Finland ~5M.  Each of those is less than the population of one of the US's major cities.
Our government has shown an amazingly disheartening ineptitude at managing any enterprise whatsoever.  They lose money on their railroad monopoly - even on 'food & beverage!'  People die waiting for an appointment at the VA (and the lefties want 'single-payer?')  Yes, it works on a much smaller scale in Norway, but the taxation rate is very high, including a 25% VAT paid on top of most everything after one pays 40% income tax, 20% Social Security tax, plus other local taxes - and everyone pays.  Plus 70% of employment in that country is tied directly or indirectly to the government or government-owned or -controlled businesses and industries - like oil.  
Our situation here is that far too many people are in the receiving line as opposed to the contributing line.  Too many people are out of the work force, either by choice or capability (the published unemployment rate is utterly nonsensical).  It's like Obamacare - too many sick people and not enough healthy ones so the whole thing falls apart.  I just don't see that math or system ever working out for a population of 300+M with a puny economic growth rate.  But hey, I'm just an out-of-practice engineer.  

On Fri Nov 11, Mark Henry wrote
-------------------------------
>Responding first to Bob's statement,

>"Trump made noises during the campaign . . . that he might not accept an election that went against him, and he was roundly criticized for it, rightly IMO.  But it was just talk.  Now his critics are actually doing it, not just talking about it."

>Yes, it was "just talk" at the time but Trump's followers picked up on his [despicable] message, some threatening armed insurrection if Hillary won.  Since she didn't, we really don't know what would have happened.  We cannot assume that there would not have been protests, especially if Trump rejected the outcome.

>For Charlie, communism is dead and isn't about to topple our constitution.  There are only five counties on our planet ruled by a communist party.  Among them, Cuba most strictly adheres to communist principles.  There's little true communism anywhere.

>Bernie Sanders is a Social Democrat, the political system followed in many successful democracies, notably in Scandinavia.  Capitalism flourishes and all of their citizens are cared for.  Wages are high, taxes are very high, higher education and medical care are free, standards of living are among the highest in the world, and very few are complaining.  The "right wing" parties in these countries wouldn't change the system; they only argue against practices such as providing benefits to new immigrants/migrants.
>
>
>On Fri Nov 11, CJP wrote
>------------------------
>>Oh, Bob, you've put the plow into some very rich ground here.  I recommend Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" - that's the playbook.  It's not "Democrats" per se, it's the thirst for socialism by the left - even though the mob doesn't understand what that means or what that brings.  Like standing in line for toilet paper in Venezuela.
>>The country got a taste of it during the last eight years during which the Sanders/Warren crowd was emboldened by catch phrases such as "social justice" and promises of free tuition and massive wealth redistribution schemes such as Obamacare.  
>>I daresay Joe McCarthy, whose methods were suspect, was basically right.  The roots of Communism run deep, and given half a chance, will topple our Constitution and current form of government if given even half a chance.  Listen for the howls of protest when the President-elect takes office and starts reversing the horde of executive orders issued by Obama.  Conservatives don't march en masse in protest or break windows and flip cars - they vote.  The mobs now shouting four-letter words and burning flags basically want what the other guy has so that in the end, we're all equally miserable.

>>On Fri Nov 11, Bob Bridges wrote (snip)
>>--------------------------------
>>>Now I read of thousands demonstrating, loudly asserting "not my President!" again, and even getting violent in at least one such episode.

>>>So someone tell me:  Is there really a moral difference, after all, between Republicans and Democrats?  Trump made noises during the campaign (or so I read) that he might not accept an election that went against him, and he was roundly criticized for it, rightly IMO.  But it was just talk.  Now his critics are actually doing it, not just talking about it.

>


Message 3288fe0400A-9812-1241+1b.htm, number 127316, was posted on Fri Nov 11 at 20:41:32
in reply to 419ec81b00A-9812-628+1b.htm

Re^5: WW2 - the Pacific

jag wag


Then it's on the reading list for Maui.  Thanks for the recommendation.

On Fri Nov 11, Max wrote
------------------------
>>I thought it was terrific. Corrected a number of misconceptions I had held for decades and left me with a greater appreciation of the Navy role.
>
>
>On Thu Nov 10, jag wag wrote
>----------------------------
>>Have not read it.  Should I?

>>On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
>>-----------------------
>>>I've ordered it.
>>>What did you think of Neptunes Inferno?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>n Tue Nov 8, jag wag wrote
>>>---------------------------
>>>>I highly recommend "Pacific Crucible" by Ian Toll about the war in the Pacific in 1941 and 1942.  It's the first in the "Pacific War Trilogy".  The second volume (whose title currently escapes me) is also out.  I'm saving that read for my annual trip to Maui in January.  Toll also wrote "Six Frigates" about the founding of the US Navy.

>>>>On Tue Nov 8, Max wrote
>>>>-----------------------
>>>>>I've been reading a bit about the months after Pearl Harbor. Specifically the Navy/Marine activities in the pacific.
>>>>>Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, Midway. Fascinating stuff.
>>>>>The technical transition. The heroism. The luck...good and bad.
>>>>>Epic stuff.
>>>>>Jack and Maturin would have fit right in.


Message 50e5a913p13-9813-399+54.htm, number 127317, was posted on Sat Nov 12 at 06:39:51
in reply to 90a0626000A-9807-743-90.htm

Finally, a World Map That Doesn’t Lie

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com




' . . The Americas and Africa are tilted inward and pushed to the upper corners of the map, while Australia sits perfectly upright at the bottom center. The lines of latitude and longitude veer in odd directions, the result of transformations that broke them from their naturally spherical configuration.

Most importantly, the continents are all rendered as they actually appear. Africa has regained its geographic primacy while North America and Europe are shrunk back to their true sizes. The oceans, too, are finally represented accurately. By breaking longstanding rules governing how the continents and lines of latitude and longitude should appear, Narukawa has achieved a geographically accurate depiction of Earth . . '

[blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2016/11/03/most-accurate-world-map/]


Message 50e5a913p13-9813-689-90.htm, number 127318, was posted on Sat Nov 12 at 11:29:15
‘Consider a Monarchy, America’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Some sensible advice from Nikolai Tolstoy - remember him? the chap whose supposed to be writing Volume 2 of his life of POB, describing his life as a write of, inter alia, the Canon. His publishers have never formally scrapped vol 2 but there’s been no news of it for years. I had assumed that NT was too old (he’s 80) or too ill to complete it but this piece suggests not.
 NT in 2010
Volume 1 appeared in 2004 to mixed reviews; this one will certainly cause some dedicated Forumites to burst a blood vessel: www.theguardian.com/books/2004/nov/14/biography.features

And here’s a piece about Alexandra T, POB’s step-grand-daughter, who is a principal beneficiary of his estate: www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/13/alexandra-tolstoy-interview-sergei-pugachev-planned-his-escape


Message 50e5a913p13-9813-696-90.htm, number 127319, was posted on Sat Nov 12 at 11:37:11
'The Nutmeg Of Consolation: Accepting Low Expected Returns'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘ . . In one of his famous historical novels about the British Navy in the Age of Sail (circa 1812), Patrick O'Brian wrote about his fictional hero Captain Jack Aubrey's troubles in the South China Sea and the Pacific Ocean. Along the way, Aubrey and his crew have been shipwrecked, stranded on a small, isolated tropical island, attacked by hordes of murderous pirates, and eventually, rescued from their plight by a Chinese junk.

Upon arrival at the nearest British naval base, they are finally rewarded for all of their suffering with a new ship, small but beautiful, which Aubrey christens The Nutmeg of Consolation. The subliminal message, in my opinion, is that in spite of losing his frigate and nearly dying on a small tropical island, Aubrey is pleased as punch to get command of a beautiful little ship that will let him and his crew travel the 12,000 miles or so back to England; his new little ship is his consolation for all of his losses.

Investors nowadays also face some grim problems - perhaps not as bad as being shipwrecked, but with respect to their future returns on investments, not so good either. Fund manager John Hussman thinks the expected return for stocks over the next 12 years is only 1.4% . . ‘

[seekingalpha.com/article/4010747-nutmeg-consolation-accepting-low-expected-returns?page=2]


Message 4ca756ac8YV-9813-741-90.htm, number 127320, was posted on Sat Nov 12 at 12:21:20
This looks interesting...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


This is a free online course that starts in January (I don't believe there will be a test)


Message 4981ca22cZn-9815-729+1b.htm, number 127321, was posted on Mon Nov 14 at 12:12:28
in reply to 041077a400A-9812-1042+1e.htm

Thanks, Charlie, for giving me and excuse to post off-A/M-topic photos

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Following up on our discussion, of communism and communist countries, Vietnam is one of a handful of countries run by a Communist Party but there is little or no communism.  They tried "pure" communism for about a decade after reunification but it was a failure and, when asked about it now, the stock answer is that "it was a mistake."  Entrepreneurship is rampant with  millions of cottage industries, privately owned farms (food is plentiful and inexpensive), foreign investment (I saw huge Samsung and Canon factories), etc.  Their biggest problem is corruption -- nothing "official" gets done without bribes.  However, the Party does, indeed, control the country -- there's no dissent, free press, etc.  It appears that the primary reason for retaining power is for the economic benefit of party members and their extended families.

Anyway, in early 2016, they were still celebrating the 85th anniversary of the establishment of the Vietnamese Communist Party and there were relevant posters everywhere.  Here are some examples, one depicting Ho Chi Minh, Marx, and Lenin.

IMG_2528


The poster on the right side of this photo also celebrates the Party's anniversary.  The poster on the left side . . .  does not!  LOL

IMG_2653

Both photos were taken in Ho Chi Minh City, which most locals still call Saigon. The international airport call letters are SGN.





On Fri Nov 11, CJP wrote
------------------------
>Mark, my friend, you are technically correct about pure communism.  It is disappearing under the weight of its own failures.  But your (Bernie's) argument about the Scandinavian countries really doesn't hold together.  The problem there is a matter of scale.  Most recent population data for the relevant countries is: Norway ~5M, Sweden ~10M, Denmark ~6M, Finland ~5M.  Each of those is less than the population of one of the US's major cities.
>Our government has shown an amazingly disheartening ineptitude at managing any enterprise whatsoever.  They lose money on their railroad monopoly - even on 'food & beverage!'  People die waiting for an appointment at the VA (and the lefties want 'single-payer?')  Yes, it works on a much smaller scale in Norway, but the taxation rate is very high, including a 25% VAT paid on top of most everything after one pays 40% income tax, 20% Social Security tax, plus other local taxes - and everyone pays.  Plus 70% of employment in that country is tied directly or indirectly to the government or government-owned or -controlled businesses and industries - like oil.  
>Our situation here is that far too many people are in the receiving line as opposed to the contributing line.  Too many people are out of the work force, either by choice or capability (the published unemployment rate is utterly nonsensical).  It's like Obamacare - too many sick people and not enough healthy ones so the whole thing falls apart.  I just don't see that math or system ever working out for a population of 300+M with a puny economic growth rate.  But hey, I'm just an out-of-practice engineer.  

>On Fri Nov 11, Mark Henry wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Responding first to Bob's statement,

>>"Trump made noises during the campaign . . . that he might not accept an election that went against him, and he was roundly criticized for it, rightly IMO.  But it was just talk.  Now his critics are actually doing it, not just talking about it."

>>Yes, it was "just talk" at the time but Trump's followers picked up on his [despicable] message, some threatening armed insurrection if Hillary won.  Since she didn't, we really don't know what would have happened.  We cannot assume that there would not have been protests, especially if Trump rejected the outcome.

>>For Charlie, communism is dead and isn't about to topple our constitution.  There are only five counties on our planet ruled by a communist party.  Among them, Cuba most strictly adheres to communist principles.  There's little true communism anywhere.

>>Bernie Sanders is a Social Democrat, the political system followed in many successful democracies, notably in Scandinavia.  Capitalism flourishes and all of their citizens are cared for.  Wages are high, taxes are very high, higher education and medical care are free, standards of living are among the highest in the world, and very few are complaining.  The "right wing" parties in these countries wouldn't change the system; they only argue against practices such as providing benefits to new immigrants/migrants.
>>
>>
>>On Fri Nov 11, CJP wrote
>>------------------------
>>>Oh, Bob, you've put the plow into some very rich ground here.  I recommend Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" - that's the playbook.  It's not "Democrats" per se, it's the thirst for socialism by the left - even though the mob doesn't understand what that means or what that brings.  Like standing in line for toilet paper in Venezuela.
>>>The country got a taste of it during the last eight years during which the Sanders/Warren crowd was emboldened by catch phrases such as "social justice" and promises of free tuition and massive wealth redistribution schemes such as Obamacare.  
>>>I daresay Joe McCarthy, whose methods were suspect, was basically right.  The roots of Communism run deep, and given half a chance, will topple our Constitution and current form of government if given even half a chance.  Listen for the howls of protest when the President-elect takes office and starts reversing the horde of executive orders issued by Obama.  Conservatives don't march en masse in protest or break windows and flip cars - they vote.  The mobs now shouting four-letter words and burning flags basically want what the other guy has so that in the end, we're all equally miserable.

>>>On Fri Nov 11, Bob Bridges wrote (snip)
>>>--------------------------------
>>>>Now I read of thousands demonstrating, loudly asserting "not my President!" again, and even getting violent in at least one such episode.

>>>>So someone tell me:  Is there really a moral difference, after all, between Republicans and Democrats?  Trump made noises during the campaign (or so I read) that he might not accept an election that went against him, and he was roundly criticized for it, rightly IMO.  But it was just talk.  Now his critics are actually doing it, not just talking about it.

>>


Message 4981ca22cZn-9815-749+1b.htm, number 127321, was edited on Mon Nov 14 at 12:29:08
and replaces message 4981ca22cZn-9815-729+1b.htm

Thanks, Charlie, for giving me an excuse to post off-A/M-topic photos

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Following up on our discussion, of communism and communist countries, Vietnam is one of a handful of countries run by a Communist Party but there is little or no communism.  They tried "pure" communism for about a decade after reunification but it was a failure and, when asked about it now, the stock answer is that "it was a mistake."  Entrepreneurship is rampant with  millions of cottage industries, privately owned farms (food is plentiful and inexpensive), foreign investment (I saw huge Samsung and Canon factories), etc.  Their biggest problem is corruption -- nothing "official" gets done without bribes.  However, the Party does, indeed, control the country -- there's no dissent, free press, etc.  It appears that the primary reason for retaining power is for the economic benefit of party members and their extended families.

Anyway, in early 2016, they were still celebrating the 85th anniversary of the establishment of the Vietnamese Communist Party and there were relevant posters everywhere.  Here are some examples, one depicting Ho Chi Minh, Marx, and Lenin.

IMG_2528


The poster on the right side of this photo also celebrates the Party's anniversary.  The poster on the left side . . .  does not!  LOL

IMG_2653

Both photos were taken in Ho Chi Minh City, which most locals still call Saigon. The international airport call letters are SGN.





On Fri Nov 11, CJP wrote
------------------------
>Mark, my friend, you are technically correct about pure communism.  It is disappearing under the weight of its own failures.  But your (Bernie's) argument about the Scandinavian countries really doesn't hold together.  The problem there is a matter of scale.  Most recent population data for the relevant countries is: Norway ~5M, Sweden ~10M, Denmark ~6M, Finland ~5M.  Each of those is less than the population of one of the US's major cities.
>Our government has shown an amazingly disheartening ineptitude at managing any enterprise whatsoever.  They lose money on their railroad monopoly - even on 'food & beverage!'  People die waiting for an appointment at the VA (and the lefties want 'single-payer?')  Yes, it works on a much smaller scale in Norway, but the taxation rate is very high, including a 25% VAT paid on top of most everything after one pays 40% income tax, 20% Social Security tax, plus other local taxes - and everyone pays.  Plus 70% of employment in that country is tied directly or indirectly to the government or government-owned or -controlled businesses and industries - like oil.  
>Our situation here is that far too many people are in the receiving line as opposed to the contributing line.  Too many people are out of the work force, either by choice or capability (the published unemployment rate is utterly nonsensical).  It's like Obamacare - too many sick people and not enough healthy ones so the whole thing falls apart.  I just don't see that math or system ever working out for a population of 300+M with a puny economic growth rate.  But hey, I'm just an out-of-practice engineer.  

>On Fri Nov 11, Mark Henry wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Responding first to Bob's statement,

>>"Trump made noises during the campaign . . . that he might not accept an election that went against him, and he was roundly criticized for it, rightly IMO.  But it was just talk.  Now his critics are actually doing it, not just talking about it."

>>Yes, it was "just talk" at the time but Trump's followers picked up on his [despicable] message, some threatening armed insurrection if Hillary won.  Since she didn't, we really don't know what would have happened.  We cannot assume that there would not have been protests, especially if Trump rejected the outcome.

>>For Charlie, communism is dead and isn't about to topple our constitution.  There are only five counties on our planet ruled by a communist party.  Among them, Cuba most strictly adheres to communist principles.  There's little true communism anywhere.

>>Bernie Sanders is a Social Democrat, the political system followed in many successful democracies, notably in Scandinavia.  Capitalism flourishes and all of their citizens are cared for.  Wages are high, taxes are very high, higher education and medical care are free, standards of living are among the highest in the world, and very few are complaining.  The "right wing" parties in these countries wouldn't change the system; they only argue against practices such as providing benefits to new immigrants/migrants.
>>
>>
>>On Fri Nov 11, CJP wrote
>>------------------------
>>>Oh, Bob, you've put the plow into some very rich ground here.  I recommend Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" - that's the playbook.  It's not "Democrats" per se, it's the thirst for socialism by the left - even though the mob doesn't understand what that means or what that brings.  Like standing in line for toilet paper in Venezuela.
>>>The country got a taste of it during the last eight years during which the Sanders/Warren crowd was emboldened by catch phrases such as "social justice" and promises of free tuition and massive wealth redistribution schemes such as Obamacare.  
>>>I daresay Joe McCarthy, whose methods were suspect, was basically right.  The roots of Communism run deep, and given half a chance, will topple our Constitution and current form of government if given even half a chance.  Listen for the howls of protest when the President-elect takes office and starts reversing the horde of executive orders issued by Obama.  Conservatives don't march en masse in protest or break windows and flip cars - they vote.  The mobs now shouting four-letter words and burning flags basically want what the other guy has so that in the end, we're all equally miserable.

>>>On Fri Nov 11, Bob Bridges wrote (snip)
>>>--------------------------------
>>>>Now I read of thousands demonstrating, loudly asserting "not my President!" again, and even getting violent in at least one such episode.

>>>>So someone tell me:  Is there really a moral difference, after all, between Republicans and Democrats?  Trump made noises during the campaign (or so I read) that he might not accept an election that went against him, and he was roundly criticized for it, rightly IMO.  But it was just talk.  Now his critics are actually doing it, not just talking about it.

>>

[ This message was edited on Mon Nov 14 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9815-1282+02.htm, number 127322, was posted on Mon Nov 14 at 21:21:48
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9811-589+06.htm

We'll never really know...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


...since frequently when the absentee ballots are less than the apparent disparity between candidates, absentee ballots simply don't get counted because in the relevent ward, district, county, or state, the absentee ballots won't make a difference in the electoral vote.

www.americanthinker.com/blog/2016/11/counting_absentee_votes.html

Reporting of the "popular vote" is hit or miss.

r,

Caltrop


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9816-1109+57.htm, number 127323, was posted on Tue Nov 15 at 18:29:31
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9813-689-90.htm

Pausing to question...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'm no very enthusiastic fan of democracy.  I support the American Constitution, now that we have it, for reasons you would no doubt find inconsistent if I were so foolish as to try to explain them; but had I been alive at the time of the American revolution I'm pretty sure I would have been a Loyalist.  And I find occasion to quote The Hohenzollern:  "Monarchy is either the best or the worst form of government, depending on the monarch."  I deeply regret our insistence upon remaking the Iraqi government as a democracy, forcing on them a form of government that most didn't want and that (IMHO) can never work unless most want it.  So the question I'm about to ask isn't meant to be an argument in favor of democracy.

The question is this:  The writer of the NYT article asserts that "democracy is perfectly compatible with constitutional monarchy", offering a number of examples beginning with Canada.  But it seems to me—and I admit I've very ignorant—that the more democracy there is in Canada, Britain, pretty much anywhere, to that extent the less monarchy.  Americans revere Elizabeth (more so, perhaps, than your average Brit), but what actual power does she have?  Please take that as a real question, not just an argument.

On Sat Nov 12, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Some sensible advice from Nikolai Tolstoy - remember him? the chap whose supposed to be writing Volume 2 of his life of POB, describing his life as a write of, inter alia, the Canon. His publishers have never formally scrapped vol 2 but there’s been no news of it for years. I had assumed that NT was too old (he’s 80) or too ill to complete it but this piece suggests not.
>  NT in 2010
>Volume 1 appeared in 2004 to mixed reviews; this one will certainly cause some dedicated Forumites to burst a blood vessel: www.theguardian.com/books/2004/nov/14/biography.features

>And here’s a piece about Alexandra T, POB’s step-grand-daughter, who is a principal beneficiary of his estate: www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/13/alexandra-tolstoy-interview-sergei-pugachev-planned-his-escape


Message 50e5a913p13-9817-549-90.htm, number 127324, was posted on Wed Nov 16 at 09:08:46
"Come up and see me sometime!"

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com




Message 46d1c55c00A-9817-623+5a.htm, number 127325, was posted on Wed Nov 16 at 10:23:36
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9817-549-90.htm

Re: "Come up and see me sometime!"

Max


Is that a Titan Missle in your pocket or are you really happy to be in NATO?



n Wed Nov 16, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------





>

Message 46d1c55c00A-9817-790-30.htm, number 127326, was posted on Wed Nov 16 at 13:10:15
Pacific Crucible

Max


Terrific book. I'm only up to November 1941and already I regret that we killed Yamamoto.
The section on the failure of Japanese democracy in the 1920s goes a long way toward explaining some of Bob's questions below.

Message 50e5a913p13-9818-786+55.htm, number 127327, was posted on Thu Nov 17 at 13:06:37
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9816-1109+57.htm

Bagehot on Monarchy, 1867

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Nov 15, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
. . Americans revere Elizabeth (more so, perhaps, than your average Brit), but what actual power does she have? Please take that as a real question, not just an argument.

Of course - here's an extract from the definitive answer, penned by Walter Bagehot in 1867; I apologise for its length - I didn't want to spoil it by cutting it too much:
 photo Screen Shot 2016-11-17 at 17.55.39.png
[33]: ‘No. II THE MONARCHY*

The use of the Queen, in a dignified capacity, is incalculable. Without her in England, the present English Government would fail and pass away. Most people when they read that the Queen walked on the slopes at Windsor—that the Prince of Wales went to the Derby—have imagined that too much thought and prominence were given to little things. But they have been in error; and it is nice to trace how the actions of a retired widow and an unemployed youth become of such importance.

The best reason why Monarchy is a strong government is, that it is an intelligible government. The mass of mankind understand it, and they hardly anywhere in the world understand any other. It is often said that men are ruled by their imaginations; but it would be truer to say they are governed by the weakness of their imaginations.

The nature of a constitution, the action of an assembly, the play of parties, the unseen formation of a guiding opinion, are complex facts, difficult to know and easy to mistake. But the action of a single will, the fiat of a single mind, are easy ideas: anybody can make them out, and no one can ever forget them . .

. . No feeling could seem more childish than the enthusiasm of the English at the marriage of the Prince of Wales. They treated as a great political event, what, looked at as a matter of pure business, was very small indeed. But no feeling could be more like common human nature as it is, and as it is likely to be. The women—one half the human race at least—care fifty times more for a marriage than a ministry.

All but a few cynics like to see a pretty novel touching for a moment the dry scenes of the grave world. A princely marriage is the brilliant edition of a universal fact, and, as such, it rivets mankind. We smile at the Court Circular; but remember how many people read the Court Circular! Its use is not in what it says, but in those to whom it speaks. They say that the Americans were more pleased at the Queen’s letter to Mrs. Lincoln, than at any act of the English Government.

. . If we leave literary theory, and look to our actual old law, it is wonderful how much the sovereign can do . .  the Queen has a hundred such powers which waver between reality and desuetude, and which would cause a protracted and very interesting legal argument if she tried to exercise them. Some good lawyer ought to write a careful book to say which of these powers are really usable, and which are obsolete. There is no authentic explicit information as to what the Queen can do, any more than of what she does.

In the bare superficial theory of free institutions this is undoubtedly a defect . . To state the matter shortly, the sovereign has, under a constitutional monarchy such as ours, three rights—the right to be consulted, the right to encourage, the right to warn. And a king of great sense and sagacity would want no others. He would find that his having no others would enable him to use these with singular effect. He would say to his minister:

"The responsibility of these measures is upon you. Whatever you think best must be done. Whatever you think best shall have my full and effectual support. But you will observe that for this reason and that reason what you propose to do is bad; for this reason and that reason what you do not propose is better. I do not oppose, it is my duty not to oppose; but observe that I warn."

Supposing the king to be right, and to have what kings often have, the gift of effectual expression, he could not help moving his minister. He might not always turn his course, but he would always trouble his mind.

In the course of a long reign** a sagacious queen would acquire an experience with which few ministers could contend. The king could say:

"Have you referred to the transactions which happened during such and such an administration, I think about fourteen years ago? They afford an instructive example of the bad results which are sure to attend the policy which you propose. You did not at that time take so prominent a part in public life as you now do, and it is possible you do not fully remember all the events. I should recommend you to recur to them, and to discuss them with your older colleagues who took part in them. It is unwise to recommence a policy which so lately worked so ill" . . ‘

** 64 years and still going strong; now on her 13th prime minister.
* en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_English_Constitution_(1894)/The_Monarchy
 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bagehot


Message 3288fe0400A-9818-1278+1d.htm, number 127328, was posted on Thu Nov 17 at 21:18:20
in reply to 46d1c55c00A-9817-790-30.htm

Re: Pacific Crucible

jag wag


Glad you're enjoying it.  I particularly liked the part on Pearl Harbor.  My father was on the Oklahoma when it was bombed.  He was one of the last off before it rolled over on its side.  After that he had enough of battleships and transferred to the submarine service for the rest of the war.

On Wed Nov 16, Max wrote
------------------------
>Terrific book. I'm only up to November 1941and already I regret that we killed Yamamoto.
>The section on the failure of Japanese democracy in the 1920s goes a long way toward explaining some of Bob's questions below.


Message 46d1c58600A-9819-703+1c.htm, number 127329, was posted on Fri Nov 18 at 11:43:30
in reply to 3288fe0400A-9818-1278+1d.htm

Re^2: Pacific Crucible

Max


I'm glad that enough time has passed that the need for propaganda is over and the truth about all the foul ups can come out.
MacArthur in particular is coming off badly.




n Thu Nov 17, jag wag wrote
----------------------------
>Glad you're enjoying it.  I particularly liked the part on Pearl Harbor.  My father was on the Oklahoma when it was bombed.  He was one of the last off before it rolled over on its side.  After that he had enough of battleships and transferred to the submarine service for the rest of the war.

>On Wed Nov 16, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Terrific book. I'm only up to November 1941and already I regret that we killed Yamamoto.
>>The section on the failure of Japanese democracy in the 1920s goes a long way toward explaining some of Bob's questions below.


Message 50e5a913p13-9819-738-90.htm, number 127330, was posted on Fri Nov 18 at 12:18:28
British WW2 shipwrecks in Java Sea destroyed by scavengers

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


 photo Screen Shot 2016-11-18 at 17.14.13.png
Three British ships and a US submarine that sank in the Java Sea during the second world war have been destroyed by illegal scrap metal scavengers, the Guardian can reveal . . A preliminary report from an expedition to document sunken ships . . shows that the wrecks of HMS Exeter, a 175m heavy cruiser, and destroyer HMS Encounter have been almost totally removed. Using equipment that creates a 3D map of the sea floor, the report showed that where the wreck “was once located there is a large ‘hole’ in the seabed” . . the battle in the Java sea . . was a crushing defeat for British, Australian, American and Dutch forces. A squadron of ships from the four nations was hastily assembled under the command of Rear Admiral Doorman:

“Effectively it was a shambles. They had never trained together and their equipment was incompatible. They were basically massacred. They were trying to get back towards Ceylon in the face of the Japanese invasion. They ran into a crack Japanese cruiser squadron which outgunned and outmatched them and was trained in night fighting. All the vessels involved were sunk in one-and-a-half days. The wrecks are spread over the whole area of the Sunda straight [between the Indonesian islands of Java and Sumatra].”

[www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/16/british-second-world-war-ships-illegal-scavenging-java-sea]

This includes an account of the loss of the Exeter by a survivor, which appeared in War Illustrated in 1946.


Message 50e5a913p13-9819-753-90.htm, number 127331, was posted on Fri Nov 18 at 12:40:14
Dodo skeleton could fetch £500,000 in rare auction

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Here's something for Stephen:


The first near-complete skeleton of a dodo to go on public sale for 100 years is anticipated to fetch up to £500,000 when it goes under the hammer next week. The 95%-complete composite skeleton, put together over a period of two decades by a private collector, will be auctioned in Billingshurst, West Sussex, on Tuesday.

Summers Place Auctions, which sold a diplodocus skeleton for £400,000 in one of its previous Evolution sales, believes the rarity of the dodo means it could go for even more. There is only one known dodo skeleton made up of the bones of a single animal in existence, and only a dozen relatively complete composites, consisting of bones from different dodos, including one in London’s Natural History Museum . .

The seller began collecting in the 1970s and bought the majority of the dodo bones then and in the 1980s. It was only in the early 2000s that he realised he had enough to construct a skeleton. The only parts he did not have were a part of the skull and one set of claws, which have been reconstructed.

It's lot 81 in issuu.com/summersplaceauctions/docs/evolution_22_november_2016?e=13564483/39963520

[www.summersplaceauctions.com/]
[www.theguardian.com/science/2016/nov/17/dodo-skeleton-could-fetch-500000-in-rare-auction]

I wonder what a collector would give now for his pillow stuffed with dodo feathers?


Message 50e5a913p13-9820-801-90.htm, number 127332, was posted on Sat Nov 19 at 13:20:51
Storm Angus, . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . the first of this season's named storms, will be tooling up the Channel tonight:

“Storm Angus is developing rapidly and will move northeast across southern and southeast England during Sunday morning. Southerly then southwesterly gales are likely with storm force winds developing over the English Channel and affecting some coastal districts. Very squally showers are also expected such that isolated gusts of 70-75 mph are also possible further inland . . ”

Imagine Jack and his comrades keeping up the blockade off Ushant in such storms in leaky ships with worn out sails for weeks, even months, on end.

This is the famous weather forecast before the Great Storm, October 1987:


Message 182d66a00Nn-9821-623+52.htm, number 127333, was posted on Sun Nov 20 at 10:23:14
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9818-786+55.htm

Poking around in De Tocqueville for a suitable quote...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


...I found this:

The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.

This is a variant expression of a sentiment which is often attributed to Tocqueville or Alexander Fraser Tytler, but the earliest known occurrence is as an unsourced attribution to Tytler in "This is the Hard Core of Freedom" by Elmer T. Peterson in The Daily Oklahoman (9 December 1951): "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

Not really important who said it or when, but it should be terrible thought that hangs over us.  I'd submit we were on our way to dictatorship through bribery, and then monarchy, using the public's money, but thankfully we've dodged that bullet for at least one term.

r,

Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-9821-714-07.htm, number 127334, was posted on Sun Nov 20 at 11:54:11
‘In 1765 John Harrison won a large cash prize for solving which maritime problem?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference. Easy-peasy for forumites but to check you’re right visit:
www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E0298

Message 602421f200A-9821-899+1a.htm, number 127335, was posted on Sun Nov 20 at 14:59:02
in reply to 46d1c55c00A-9817-790-30.htm

Re: Pacific Crucible

Beached


Why do you regret the death of a dangerous enemy? The reason he was targeted was because he was their best and by that action future American lives would be saved.




On Wed Nov 16, Max wrote
------------------------
>Terrific book. I'm only up to November 1941and already I regret that we killed Yamamoto.
>The section on the failure of Japanese democracy in the 1920s goes a long way toward explaining some of Bob's questions below.

Message b040c3bbcb5-9821-913-30.htm, number 127336, was posted on Sun Nov 20 at 15:13:19
So there's 1400 tons of TNT right in the middle of the Thames Estuary... [off-topic]

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



A ship full of ordnance, including blockbuster bombs, was ordered to anchor in an unsafe place off the Isle of Sheppey. It dragged its anchor, ran aground, and split in half as the tide went out in August of 1944. Efforts to remove the cargo were partially successful before it sank, but 1400 tons of explosives remain on board and the latest thinking is there's no way to safely remove it. It would cause a 4-foot high wave in Sheppey if it exploded. So there it sits, right in front of one of Europe's busiest shipping lanes.

The story

At least in OUR era, drowning the magazines was sufficient.



Message 61518c668HW-9822-641+51.htm, number 127337, was posted on Mon Nov 21 at 10:42:16
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9818-786+55.htm

Re: Bagehot on Monarchy, 1867

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"They say that the Americans were more pleased at the Queen’s letter to Mrs. Lincoln, than at any act of the English Government."  Indeed.  I know nothing about that letter (I now intend to look it up), but I wept with gratitude when I heard that the Queen had ordered the US national anthem be played at the changing of the guard they day after 09-11.

This article was interesting, but it doesn't seem to answer my question "what actual powers does she have?"—unless the answer is "none".  (The three stated rights do not seem to me to be "powers" in the sense I had in mind.)  And although I stand by what I said below about my feeling that a monarchy is probably a more effective form of government than a republic—effective for good or ill—reading this I'm reminded of why I much prefer a written Constitution over a bunch of traditions.  At heart I suppose I'm a legalist; I want to be able to point to this clause of the Constitution, and that of GS IV sec 2.43(a), and reason out not what I want to be the law but what it actually is.  (This isn't a very attractive character trait, I fear.)

Sorry, I digress.  To undigress, it still isn't clear to me that monarchy and democracy are not "perfectly compatible".  On the contrary they seem to be mutually contradictory; they can be combined in a single government, but the more you have of one, the less of the other.  At least if we look at examples of real-world governments that seems to be the conclusion.

I said I have a preference for monarchies, but it's always a trade-off.  A monarchy or despotism can actually accomplish things, good and bad.  If you dial back the government's ability to do bad things you necessarily reduce its ability to do good things too.  That's the choice: not between good and bad, but between effective and ineffective.

On Thu Nov 17, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Of course - here's an extract from the definitive answer, penned by Walter Bagehot in 1867; I apologise for its length - I didn't want to spoil it by cutting it too much:
> photo Screen Shot 2016-11-17 at 17.55.39.png
>[33]: ‘No. II THE MONARCHY*

>The use of the Queen, in a dignified capacity, is incalculable. Without her in England, the present English Government would fail and pass away. Most people when they read that the Queen walked on the slopes at Windsor—that the Prince of Wales went to the Derby—have imagined that too much thought and prominence were given to little things. But they have been in error; and it is nice to trace how the actions of a retired widow and an unemployed youth become of such importance.

>The best reason why Monarchy is a strong government is, that it is an intelligible government. The mass of mankind understand it, and they hardly anywhere in the world understand any other. It is often said that men are ruled by their imaginations; but it would be truer to say they are governed by the weakness of their imaginations.

>The nature of a constitution, the action of an assembly, the play of parties, the unseen formation of a guiding opinion, are complex facts, difficult to know and easy to mistake. But the action of a single will, the fiat of a single mind, are easy ideas: anybody can make them out, and no one can ever forget them . .

> . . No feeling could seem more childish than the enthusiasm of the English at the marriage of the Prince of Wales. They treated as a great political event, what, looked at as a matter of pure business, was very small indeed. But no feeling could be more like common human nature as it is, and as it is likely to be. The women—one half the human race at least—care fifty times more for a marriage than a ministry.

>All but a few cynics like to see a pretty novel touching for a moment the dry scenes of the grave world. A princely marriage is the brilliant edition of a universal fact, and, as such, it rivets mankind. We smile at the Court Circular; but remember how many people read the Court Circular! Its use is not in what it says, but in those to whom it speaks. They say that the Americans were more pleased at the Queen’s letter to Mrs. Lincoln, than at any act of the English Government.

> . . If we leave literary theory, and look to our actual old law, it is wonderful how much the sovereign can do . .  the Queen has a hundred such powers which waver between reality and desuetude, and which would cause a protracted and very interesting legal argument if she tried to exercise them. Some good lawyer ought to write a careful book to say which of these powers are really usable, and which are obsolete. There is no authentic explicit information as to what the Queen can do, any more than of what she does.

>In the bare superficial theory of free institutions this is undoubtedly a defect . . To state the matter shortly, the sovereign has, under a constitutional monarchy such as ours, three rights—the right to be consulted, the right to encourage, the right to warn. And a king of great sense and sagacity would want no others. He would find that his having no others would enable him to use these with singular effect. He would say to his minister:

>"The responsibility of these measures is upon you. Whatever you think best must be done. Whatever you think best shall have my full and effectual support. But you will observe that for this reason and that reason what you propose to do is bad; for this reason and that reason what you do not propose is better. I do not oppose, it is my duty not to oppose; but observe that I warn."

>Supposing the king to be right, and to have what kings often have, the gift of effectual expression, he could not help moving his minister. He might not always turn his course, but he would always trouble his mind.

>In the course of a long reign** a sagacious queen would acquire an experience with which few ministers could contend. The king could say:

>"Have you referred to the transactions which happened during such and such an administration, I think about fourteen years ago? They afford an instructive example of the bad results which are sure to attend the policy which you propose. You did not at that time take so prominent a part in public life as you now do, and it is possible you do not fully remember all the events. I should recommend you to recur to them, and to discuss them with your older colleagues who took part in them. It is unwise to recommence a policy which so lately worked so ill" . . ‘

>** 64 years and still going strong; now on her 13th prime minister.
>* en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_English_Constitution_(1894)/The_Monarchy
>  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bagehot

>On Tue Nov 15, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
> ....Americans revere Elizabeth (more so, perhaps, than your average Brit), but what actual power does she have? Please take that as a real question, not just an argument.


Message 61518c668HW-9822-648+51.htm, number 127338, was posted on Mon Nov 21 at 10:47:36
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9821-623+52.htm

Re: Poking around in De Tocqueville for a suitable quote...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Maybe we have, Captain, and maybe we haven't.  I see a lot of historical parallels between our new President and ... well, never mind, you've heard me pontificate on this before.  While we're swapping quotes:

....a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government.  History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants.  -Alexander Hamilton, _Federalist_ #1

I do not predict; you may be right.  I only watch interestedly.

On Sun Nov 20, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>...I found this: The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.

>This is a variant expression of a sentiment which is often attributed to Tocqueville or Alexander Fraser Tytler, but the earliest known occurrence is as an unsourced attribution to Tytler in "This is the Hard Core of Freedom" by Elmer T. Peterson in The Daily Oklahoman (9 December 1951): "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

>Not really important who said it or when, but it should be terrible thought that hangs over us.  I'd submit we were on our way to dictatorship through bribery, and then monarchy, using the public's money, but thankfully we've dodged that bullet for at least one term.


Message 50e5a913p13-9822-653+19.htm, number 127339, was posted on Mon Nov 21 at 10:53:03
in reply to 46d1c55c00A-9817-790-30.htm

Volume 2 is also out

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Nov 16, Max wrote
------------------------
>Terrific book. I'm only up to November 1941and already I regret that we killed Yamamoto.
>The section on the failure of Japanese democracy in the 1920s goes a long way toward explaining some of Bob's questions below.

My thanks also to whoever recommended this; there is as yet no UK edition so I hadn't heard of it. I see that Vol 2 The Conquering Tide : War in the Pacific Islands, 1942-1944 appeared in Dec 2015:

'This masterful history encompasses the heart of the Pacific War-the period between mid-1942 and mid-1944-when parallel Allied counteroffensives north and south of the equator washed over Japan's far-flung island empire like a "conquering tide," concluding with Japan's irreversible strategic defeat in the Marianas. It was the largest, bloodiest, most costly, most technically innovative and logistically complicated amphibious war in history, and it fostered bitter interservice rivalries, leaving wounds that even victory could not heal. Often overlooked, these are the years and fights that decided the Pacific War.

Ian W. Toll's battle scenes-in the air, at sea, and in the jungles-are simply riveting. He also takes the reader into the wartime councils in Washington and Tokyo where politics and strategy often collided, and into the struggle to mobilize wartime production, which was the secret of Allied victory. Brilliantly researched, the narrative is propelled and colored by firsthand accounts-letters, diaries, debriefings, and memoirs-that are the raw material of the telling details, shrewd judgment, and penetrating insight of this magisterial history . . '

[www.bookdepository.com/The-Conquering-Tide-Ian-W-Toll/9780393080643?ref=pd_detail_1_sims_b_p2p_1]


Message 50e5a913p13-9822-830+51.htm, number 127340, was posted on Mon Nov 21 at 13:53:31
in reply to 61518c668HW-9822-641+51.htm

'Though a Stranger to you I cannot remain silent . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Nov 21, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>"They say that the Americans were more pleased at the Queen’s letter to Mrs. Lincoln, than at any act of the English Government."  Indeed.  I know nothing about that letter (I now intend to look it up) . .

Here it is, from Letters of Note:

April 29, 1865

Dear Madam,

Though a Stranger to you I cannot remain silent when so terrible a calamity has fallen upon you & your Country & must personally express my deep & heartfelt sympathy with you under the shocking circumstances of your present dreadful misfortune —

No one can better appreciate than I can, who am myself utterly broken-hearted by the loss of my own beloved Husband, who was the Light of my Life, — my Stay — my all, — what your sufferings must be; and I earnestly pray that you may be supported by Him to whom Alone the sorely stricken can look for comfort, in this hour of heavy affliction.

With the renewed Expression of true sympathy, I remain,

dear Madam,

Your Sincere friend

Victoria Rg
www.lettersofnote.com/2011/06/i-cannot-remain-silent.html
..............
>This article was interesting, but it doesn't seem to answer my question "what actual powers does she have?"—unless the answer is "none". . .
...........
You’re right: let me now address the question as put. The only powers that I have thought of are that of bestowing three honours:

the Order of Merit en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Merit#cite_note-Memb-18,
the Royal Victorian Order en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order and
the Order of the Garter en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Garter

which are ‘in the personal gift of the sovereign’.

All her other powers are vested in the ‘Crown in Parliament’ and exercised in her name by the Prime Minister of the day.


Message 49df0d9bcYC-9822-1127+06.htm, number 127341, was posted on Mon Nov 21 at 18:47:03
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9821-714-07.htm

Re: ‘In 1765 John Harrison won a large cash prize for solving which maritime problem?’ . .

Windguy
klcousineau@veriozn.net


An easy one Chrístõ -- especially if you have read "Longitude" by Dava Sobel. Great little book.

I always found it interesting that Lewis and Clark used an older method, since they lacked an accurate clock -- they used a telescope to view the moons of Jupiter to determine the correct time. Having the correct time gave them the correct longitude. This was a method that proved very difficult on-board a ship rolling around the ocean.

Windguy


Message 3261f0f38YV-9822-1188-90.htm, number 127342, was posted on Mon Nov 21 at 19:48:37
Re Coppering "Constitution"

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Lifted directly from a post on FB for our Luddite friends which view it not.


By USS Constitution Museum    
18 November, 2016    

England’s Royal Navy began experimenting with copper-cladding its warships in the early 1760s and found it extended
the life of the ships by preventing boring mollusks from destroying the wooden hulls. Below-the-waterline copper
sheathing also allowed for greater ease in cleaning barnacles and crustaceans from ships’ bottoms. USS Constitution
and the other five frigates of the original U.S. Navy were each copper-clad before launching, per the instructions of
Joshua Humphreys, the frigates’ designer.

When coppered in the summer of 1797, Constitution‘s lower hull required “12,000 feet of sheet copper” and
thousands of copper nails. There is no 18th century plan of the layout of the copper sheathing, but it is probable that
the workers at Edmund Hartt’s shipyard began at Constitution‘s stern, down at the keel, and worked their way both
forward and upward with row upon row of copper. Each sheet would have overlapped one inch on all sides, with the
vertical joints between the sheets facing aft. This created a smooth “fish scale” affect to the hull, thereby preventing
the sheets from being lifted by the action of the water. It is understood that the Royal Navy laid its warship copper
with the horizontal joints facing upwards and it is possible that Constitution‘s copper was so installed, as depicted in
the illustration below.


[USS Constitution Museum Collection. © Stephen Biesty, 2015.]

Illustration by Stephen Biesty showing a shipyard worker installing USS Constitution‘s first copper sheathing in the summer of 1797.  
[USS Constitution Museum Collection. © Stephen Biesty, 2015.]


Two mid-to-late 19th century photographs of Constitution, hauled out of the water, offer the rare opportunity to observe, at close hand,
the layout of her copper sheathing. Both the 1858 Portsmouth Navy Yard and the 1875 Philadelphia Navy Yard photos clearly show
the “no belt” pattern to Constitution‘s copper.




Salt paper photographic print of Constitution at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in 1858. Note the jagged edge of the unfinished copper sheathing.
[USS Constitution Museum Collection]
USS Constitution in a sectional dock at the Philadelphia Navy Yard, ca. 1875. [Courtesy Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston]

USS Constitution in a sectional dock at the Philadelphia Navy Yard, ca. 1875. This photo shows the angle of the ship’s copper and a portion
of the hull planking.
[Courtesy Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston]


As described by Mark Staniforth in his article “The Introduction and Use of Copper Sheathing – A History,” the “‘no belt’
copper pattern resulted from the greater distance from the keel to the waterline amidships than at either bow or stern.
This resulted in a ‘bowed’ pattern where there were more rows of copper sheathing amidships and the rows curved sharply upwards at the bow and stern.”
[From The Bulletin of the Australian Institute for Maritime Archaeology, Vol. 9, No. 1 of 2, 1985, 30]

For the 1927 restoration, a plan was drawn of the proposed layout for the new copper sheathing. Lieutenant John A.
Lord’s “U.S. Frigate Constitution Copper Plan,” #25002, dated December 12, 1929, shows an outboard profile of the ship
with perfectly straight lines superimposed on the lower hull, representing the lines of copper sheathing. Given the extreme
curves to Constitution‘s lower hull, it is nearly impossible to lay the sheathing in perfectly parallel rows.
[Courtesy Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston]

“U.S. Frigate Constitution Copper Plan”, #25002, December 12, 1929. [Courtesy Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston]
When examining photographs of the newly coppered Constitution in the spring of 1930, it appears that the Navy re-coppered
Constitution using the “goring belt” method.  Staniforth’s description is thus: “The…’Goring Belt’ copper pattern was
developed in order to overcome the problems which the shape of the hull caused. Certain sheets of copper were cut to fit
the triangular section at both bow and stern where the rows of copper sheets were not parallel to each other.” [Staniforth, 30]
The March 31, 1930 photograph of “Old Ironsides” in Dry Dock 1, just before her undocking, clearly shows the areas where
copper sheathing was cut into various triangular shapes to fit the curves of the vessel’s hull.

[Courtesy Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston]

USS Constitution in Dry Dock 1, March 31, 1930. The copper sheathing replaced sheathing that had been installed in the
1870s. [Courtesy Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston]

USS Constitution was re-coppered in the 1973-1974 dry docking and again in the 1992 restoration. Each time, the pattern
of laying the sheathing on the ship’s lower hull has essentially followed the “goring belt” method established in the
1927 restoration. And, at least since the 1973-1974 re-coppering, the uppermost two rows or so of copper have been covered
with red anti-fouling paint, to prevent any marine growth right at the ship’s waterline.

For the 2015-2017 restoration, the ceremonial “first piece” of copper sheathing was removed from Constitution‘s rudder
on June 9, 2015, just three weeks after the ship had been dry docked. Even though much preparatory work was begun on the
ship before she left the water, the removal of that first piece of copper marked the “beginning” of the 2015 – 2017 dry
docking and restoration.


USS Constitution Museum President Anne Grimes Rand, USS Constitution’s Commanding Officer CDR Sean D. Kearns and NHHC Detachment
Boston Director Richard Moore ceremoniously remove the first piece of copper sheathing from Constitution’s rudder, June 9, 2015.
[Courtesy USS Constitution Museum]

The summer and autumn of 2015 saw the removal of nearly 2,500 sheets of copper from the lower hull. Beginning in mid-October,
Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston ship restorers and a group of USS Constitution sailors began installing
the new copper sheathing.




Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston ship restorers installing new copper sheathing on Constitution‘s port bow.
[Courtesy Naval History &Heritage Command Detachment Boston]

As part of the current restoration, visitors to the USS Constitution Museum have the opportunity to actually leave their “mark”
on history. The Museum and NHHC Detachment Boston, with the help of the crew of Constitution, have provided a once-every-twenty-years chance
for visitors to sign their names to copper sheathing. To date 425 sheets have been signed since the ship docked in May, 2015.


photo-credit-michael-blanchard

Visitors have the opportunity at the USS Constitution Museum to sign their name on a piece of the copper that will be placed
on Constitution. [Courtesy USS Constitution Museum. Photo credit: Michael Blanchard]

Before the copper sheets are installed on the ship’s lower hull, they have to be individually perforated so that the small
copper nails can be driven through the copper sheet and into the white oak hull planking. The hand-cranked copper punching machine
that is used was patented in 1852!

The signed copper sheets are currently being installed.  The first one was attached to the ship’s keel on the port side. Another signed
piece was attached to the rudder, filling the spot where the ceremonial “first piece” was removed nearly 18 months ago.

The first piece of signed copper sheathing, installed on Constitution‘s keel, port side.
[Courtesy Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston]

A piece of copper installed on the ship's rudder. [Courtesy Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston]

A piece of copper installed on the ship’s rudder where the ceremonial “first piece” was removed on June 9, 2015.
[Courtesy Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston]

Copper is installed simultaneously from the waterline down and the keel up. [Courtesy Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston]

The coppering of the port side of USS Constitution is nearing completion. The caulking of the starboard side is almost finished and
the coppering of that side of the ship’s lower hull will soon begin. By the time Constitution is un-docked in the mid-summer of 2016,
nearly 2,500 of the 3,400 sheets that cover the bottom of the ship will have been replaced.

Crew of USS Constitution have assisted NHHC Detachment Boston ship restorers with the installation of the new copper.
[Courtesy Naval History & Heritage Command Detachment Boston]

USS Constitution‘s original keel and very bottom hull planking have survived for 219 years in part because they have been protected
by copper sheathing. The U.S. Navy’s commitment to keeping Constitution “copper bottomed” should guarantee the life of the ship’s backbone
for many more years to come. Souvenirs made from copper removed from USS Constitution are available at the
USS Constitution Museum Store, including jewelry and limited edition copper medallions.

– M. M. Desy, P. Scott & K. Monea
Copper, Hull, NHHC Detachment Boston, Restoration, Ship Restorers, USS Constitution, Video

https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2016/11/18/new-copper-sheathing-2/


Message 8eb3021300A-9823-42+18.htm, number 127343, was posted on Tue Nov 22 at 00:41:59
in reply to 602421f200A-9821-899+1a.htm

Re^2: Pacific Crucible

Max


I've always consider killing Yamamoto righteous pay back for Pearl Harbor.
Now I find out that he opposed the war at great cost to his own career and ambitions.
Seeing how accurate his detailed vision of the future was and his efforts to promote a negotiated peace makes me regret, in a small way, his death.


On Sun Nov 20, Beached wrote
----------------------------
>Why do you regret the death of a dangerous enemy? The reason he was targeted was because he was their best and by that action future American lives would be saved.
>
>
>
>
>On Wed Nov 16, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Terrific book. I'm only up to November 1941and already I regret that we killed Yamamoto.
>>The section on the failure of Japanese democracy in the 1920s goes a long way toward explaining some of Bob's questions below.

Message 50e5a913p13-9823-322+59.htm, number 127344, was posted on Tue Nov 22 at 05:22:10
in reply to 3261f0f38YV-9822-1188-90.htm

Workin glink:

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Nov 21, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Lifted directly from a post on FB:

>ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2016/11/18/new-copper-sheathing-2/

What is a FB?


Message 50e5a913p13-9823-322+59.htm, number 127344, was edited on Tue Nov 22 at 05:22:30
Working link:

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Nov 21, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Lifted directly from a post on FB:

>ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2016/11/18/new-copper-sheathing-2/

What is a FB?

[ This message was edited on Tue Nov 22 by the author ]


Message 4588233100A-9823-450-07.htm, number 127345, was posted on Tue Nov 22 at 07:29:40
PT 305 restoration - WWII Museum.

WTLL


www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/arts/design/new-victory-for-world-war-ii-pt-boat-restored-and-museum-ready.html

Message 8eb3021300A-9823-602+07.htm, number 127346, was posted on Tue Nov 22 at 10:02:33
in reply to 4588233100A-9823-450-07.htm

Re: PT 305 restoration - WWII Museum.

Max


It being New Orleans, If they just waited awhile they could have floated the boat into the museum.



On Tue Nov 22, WTLL wrote
-------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/arts/design/new-victory-for-world-war-ii-pt-boat-restored-and-museum-ready.html

Message 8eb3021300A-9823-717-30.htm, number 127347, was posted on Tue Nov 22 at 11:56:56
WW2 from below

Max


I'm working my way thru volume 2 now. Fletcher just got clobbered at Guadalcanal.

Amazing how much of Jacks practical wisdom was largely unknown to the U.S. Navy in 1941-42.

Some of the officers on both sides come across as brilliant. Others as total morons. Even without the benefit of hind sight. Some, of course, are just plain lucky. Then again, in war, as in life, lucky beats good every time.


Message 50e5a913p13-9823-738+56.htm, number 127348, was posted on Tue Nov 22 at 12:18:25
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9819-753-90.htm

Rare near-complete dodo skeleton fetches £346,300 at auction . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



Sold to the unshaven scruffy gent wearing blue tinted glasses:

. . it fetched a hammer price of £280,000 – or £346,300 with buyers’ premium, which covers the auctioneer expenses  . . The Mauritian government has . .  banned exports of dodo bones, and auctioneers believe it highly unlikely that another composite skeleton will come up for sale again.

[www.theguardian.com/science/2016/nov/22/rare-near-complete-dodo-skeleton-fetches-346300-pounds-auction]


Message 61518c668HW-9823-851+50.htm, number 127349, was posted on Tue Nov 22 at 14:11:04
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9822-830+51.htm

Re: 'Though a Stranger to you I cannot remain silent . . '

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Thanks, Chrístõ.  And I want to emphasize that I'm not at all proposing that Britain's monarch is powerless and therefore useless (as though political power be the only reason for an institution to exist).  I'm questioning only the earlier writer's assertion that one can perfectly well combine both democracy and monarchy in a single government.

On Mon Nov 21, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Mon Nov 21, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>"They say that the Americans were more pleased at the Queen’s letter to Mrs. Lincoln, than at any act of the English Government."  Indeed.  I know nothing about that letter (I now intend to look it up) . .

>Here it is, from Letters of Note:
>
>April 29, 1865

>Dear Madam,

>Though a Stranger to you I cannot remain silent when so terrible a calamity has fallen upon you & your Country & must personally express my deep & heartfelt sympathy with you under the shocking circumstances of your present dreadful misfortune —

>No one can better appreciate than I can, who am myself utterly broken-hearted by the loss of my own beloved Husband, who was the Light of my Life, — my Stay — my all, — what your sufferings must be; and I earnestly pray that you may be supported by Him to whom Alone the sorely stricken can look for comfort, in this hour of heavy affliction.

>With the renewed Expression of true sympathy, I remain,

>dear Madam,

>Your Sincere friend

>Victoria Rg
>www.lettersofnote.com/2011/06/i-cannot-remain-silent.html
>..............
>>This article was interesting, but it doesn't seem to answer my question "what actual powers does she have?"—unless the answer is "none". . .
>...........
>You’re right: let me now address the question as put. The only powers that I have thought of are that of bestowing three honours:

>the Order of Merit en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Merit#cite_note-Memb-18,
>the Royal Victorian Order en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order and
>the Order of the Garter en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Garter

>which are ‘in the personal gift of the sovereign’.

>All her other powers are vested in the ‘Crown in Parliament’ and exercised in her name by the Prime Minister of the day.


Message 3261f0f38YV-9823-897+59.htm, number 127350, was posted on Tue Nov 22 at 14:56:41
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9823-322+59.htm

Re: Facebook

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


That link will take you to the exact same thing as what I posted, which is why I removed all the others but didn't bother with that.

Quite a lively group on Facebook and some old friends can be found there as well - not the same feel to it though.


On Tue Nov 22, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Mon Nov 21, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>Lifted directly from a post on FB:

>>ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2016/11/18/new-copper-sheathing-2/

>What is a FB?


Message 4588233100A-9823-1233-07.htm, number 127351, was posted on Tue Nov 22 at 20:33:32
Catalan in Sardinia

WTLL


www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/worl

Message 4588233100A-9824-534-07.htm, number 127352, was posted on Wed Nov 23 at 08:53:44
"USS Zumwalt" needs a tow.

WTLL


foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-navys-4-billion-stealth-zumwalt-broke-down-again-1789261175

Message 041077a400A-9824-768+58.htm, number 127353, was posted on Wed Nov 23 at 12:47:50
in reply to 3261f0f38YV-9823-897+59.htm

Re^2: An absolutely wonderful article!

CJP


The photos and drawings are things of beauty!  This is a laborious task of skill, dedication, and devotion to detail.  Most amazing!

On Tue Nov 22, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>That link will take you to the exact same thing as what I posted, which is why I removed all the others but didn't bother with that.

>Quite a lively group on Facebook and some old friends can be found there as well - not the same feel to it though.
>
>
>On Tue Nov 22, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>On Mon Nov 21, akatow wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>Lifted directly from a post on FB:

>>>ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2016/11/18/new-copper-sheathing-2/

>>What is a FB?


Message 3261f0f38YV-9824-875+58.htm, number 127354, was posted on Wed Nov 23 at 14:35:11
in reply to 041077a400A-9824-768+58.htm

Re^3: I agree entirely

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


The photo of them attaching the copper at the keel and then the hull arching out and above them really gives you a perspective on what an enormous task this is, then and now.

Love the hole punching machine as well.

On Wed Nov 23, CJP wrote
------------------------
>The photos and drawings are things of beauty!  This is a laborious task of skill, dedication, and devotion to detail.  Most amazing!



Message 46d3054b00A-9824-1115-30.htm, number 127355, was posted on Wed Nov 23 at 18:35:03
Food prep music

Max


For those of you spending a large part of the day in food prep. Some excellent chopping and dicing music

https://youtu.be/H5B_Nr2TgJA


Message 50e5a913p13-9824-1183+07.htm, number 127356, was posted on Wed Nov 23 at 19:43:20
in reply to 4588233100A-9824-534-07.htm

"USS Zumwalt" gets a tow.

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



Message 61518c668HW-9825-613+05.htm, number 127357, was posted on Thu Nov 24 at 10:13:45
in reply to 4588233100A-9823-1233-07.htm

Re: Catalan in Sardinia

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


A very interesting article (thank you, WTLL), notwithstanding a bit of sloppy writing; the author twice said that Catalan usage is fading "even here", thus giving the impression that it's fading even faster elsewhere.  But my impression is that back in Catalonia there's no sign of it fading.  So what did he intend?  My guess is that "even here" is a nice semi-dramatic phrase that adds interest.  Or perhaps he's only semi-literate :-).

Ah, here he retracts:  "The language’s decline here stands in contrast to its status in the Iberian Peninsula, where it has seen a revival since the late 1970s...".

On Tue Nov 22, WTLL wrote
-------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/


Message 61518c668HW-9825-625+57.htm, number 127358, was posted on Thu Nov 24 at 10:25:40
in reply to 3261f0f38YV-9822-1188-90.htm

Re: Re Coppering "Constitution"

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Seems to me I heard somewhere (perhaps in David Weber's Safehold series) that the reason copper nails are used is that in salt water, iron nails oxidize especially fast next to copper—something about the way they act around each other.  Can anyone expand on that?

On Mon Nov 21, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Lifted directly from a post on FB for our Luddite friends which view it not.

>


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9825-653+05.htm, number 127359, was posted on Thu Nov 24 at 10:53:10
in reply to 61518c668HW-9825-613+05.htm

Re^2: Catalan in Sardinia

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


You can tell what he intended, though, Bob, which was in spite of said insularity, Catalan is fading in Alghero.
I wonder how the language hangs on in that corner of France where Mr. O'Brian once lived. It seemed alive and well across the border in Spain when I visited there a couple of years ago - if the signs and the independence demonstrations were anything to go by.

I thought of this back in September on a visit to the Alsace region of France. If you go by town names on a map, the region looks entirely German. On the ground, not a word of Deutsch. It appears entirely French. Here at home in Western Canada, many indigenous languages appear to be on their way out, despite efforts to preserve them. Insularity helps, but it has obvious drawbacks.

On Thu Nov 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>A very interesting article (thank you, WTLL), notwithstanding a bit of sloppy writing; the author twice said that Catalan usage is fading "even here", thus giving the impression that it's fading even faster elsewhere.  But my impression is that back in Catalonia there's no sign of it fading.  So what did he intend?  My guess is that "even here" is a nice semi-dramatic phrase that adds interest.  Or perhaps he's only semi-literate :-).

>Ah, here he retracts:  "The language’s decline here stands in contrast to its status in the Iberian Peninsula, where it has seen a revival since the late 1970s...".

>On Tue Nov 22, WTLL wrote
>-------------------------
>>www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/


Message 50e5a913p13-9825-776+05.htm, number 127360, was posted on Thu Nov 24 at 12:55:55
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-9825-653+05.htm

Catalans in France

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Nov 24, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>You can tell what he intended, though, Bob, which was in spite of said insularity, Catalan is fading in Alghero.
>I wonder how the language hangs on in that corner of France where Mr. O'Brian once lived . .

The NY Times article above has this link:

Don’t Erase Us’: French Catalans Fear Losing More Than a Region’s Name
www.nytimes.com/2016/09/09/world/europe/occitanie-france-catalans.html


Message 50e5a913p13-9825-787+57.htm, number 127361, was posted on Thu Nov 24 at 13:06:51
in reply to 61518c668HW-9825-625+57.htm

Which it’s galvanic corrosion, innit?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Nov 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Seems to me I heard somewhere (perhaps in David Weber's Safehold series) that the reason copper nails are used is that in salt water, iron nails oxidize especially fast next to copper—something about the way they act around each other

 photo Screen Shot 2016-11-24 at 18.03.20.png
Corrosion of an iron nail wrapped in bright copper wire, showing cathodic protection of copper; a ferroxyl indicator solution shows colored chemical indications of two types of ions diffusing through a moist agar medium

. . In 17th-century England, Samuel Pepys (then serving as Admiralty Secretary), agreed to the removal of lead sheathing from British Royal Navy vessels to prevent the mysterious disintegration of their rudder-irons and bolt-heads, though he confessed himself baffled as to the reason the lead caused the corrosion.

The problem recurred when vessels were sheathed in copper to reduce marine weed accumulation and protect against shipworm. In an experiment, the Royal Navy in 1761 had tried fitting the hull of the frigate HMS Alarm with 12-ounce copper plating. Upon her return from a voyage to the West Indies, it was found that although the copper remained in fine condition and had indeed deterred shipworm, it had also become detached from the wooden hull in many places because the iron nails used during its installation "...were found dissolved into a kind of rusty Paste".

To the surprise of the inspection teams, however, some of the iron nails were virtually undamaged. Closer inspection revealed that water-resistant brown paper trapped under the nail head had inadvertently protected some of the nails: "Where this covering was perfect, the Iron was preserved from Injury". The copper sheathing had been delivered to the dockyard wrapped in the paper which was not always removed before the sheets were nailed to the hull. The conclusion therefore reported to the Admiralty in 1763 was that iron should not be allowed direct contact with copper in sea water . .

[en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion]
[Offshore Cathodic Protection 101: What it is and how it works www.cathodicprotection101.com/]


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9826-1040+1c.htm, number 127362, was posted on Fri Nov 25 at 17:19:56
in reply to 46d3054b00A-9824-1115-30.htm

Re: Food prep music

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Link don't work

On Wed Nov 23, Max wrote
------------------------
>For those of you spending a large part of the day in food prep. Some excellent chopping and dicing music

>https://youtu.be/H5B_Nr2TgJA

>


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9826-1041+04.htm, number 127363, was posted on Fri Nov 25 at 17:21:15
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9825-776+05.htm

Re: Catalans in France

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Then there were the Catalans of Marseille, per Dumas. I wonder what happened to them. Or did he make up The Count of Monte Cristo? : )

On Thu Nov 24, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Thu Nov 24, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>You can tell what he intended, though, Bob, which was in spite of said insularity, Catalan is fading in Alghero.
>>I wonder how the language hangs on in that corner of France where Mr. O'Brian once lived . .

>The NY Times article above has this link:

>Don’t Erase Us’: French Catalans Fear Losing More Than a Region’s Name
>www.nytimes.com/2016/09/09/world/europe/occitanie-france-catalans.html


Message 6b4d5713wd5-9826-1122+1c.htm, number 127364, was posted on Fri Nov 25 at 18:42:15
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-9826-1040+1c.htm

Re^2: Food prep music

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


On Fri Nov 25, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Link don't work

>On Wed Nov 23, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>For those of you spending a large part of the day in food prep. Some excellent chopping and dicing music

>>https://youtu.be/H5B_Nr2TgJA

>>

Delete the 'S' from https


Message 46d38a8400A-9826-1217+1c.htm, number 127365, was posted on Fri Nov 25 at 20:17:27
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-9826-1040+1c.htm

Re^2: Food prep music

Max


youtu.be/H5B_Nr2TgJA

Try this


n Fri Nov 25, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Link don't work

>On Wed Nov 23, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>For those of you spending a large part of the day in food prep. Some excellent chopping and dicing music

>>https://youtu.be/H5B_Nr2TgJA

>>


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9828-872+1a.htm, number 127366, was posted on Sun Nov 27 at 14:32:40
in reply to 46d38a8400A-9826-1217+1c.htm

Re^3: Food prep music

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Thanks, Max, but no dice. 'Video not available,' is what Youtube tells me. Too hot for Canadians to handle, maybe. Doesn't matter though. Don't feel you have to do anything else to connect me to whatever it was.


On Fri Nov 25, Max wrote
------------------------
>youtu.be/H5B_Nr2TgJA

>Try this
>
>
>n Fri Nov 25, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>Link don't work

>>On Wed Nov 23, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>For those of you spending a large part of the day in food prep. Some excellent chopping and dicing music

>>>https://youtu.be/H5B_Nr2TgJA

>>>


Message 46d381f000A-9828-1044+1a.htm, number 127367, was posted on Sun Nov 27 at 17:23:46
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-9828-872+1a.htm

Canada

Max


I was just in Canada last week and was surprised by how difficult it was to get links I was used to getting routinely in the states.
Good cash exchange rate though.



n Sun Nov 27, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Thanks, Max, but no dice. 'Video not available,' is what Youtube tells me. Too hot for Canadians to handle, maybe. Doesn't matter though. Don't feel you have to do anything else to connect me to whatever it was.
>
>
>On Fri Nov 25, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>youtu.be/H5B_Nr2TgJA

>>Try this
>>
>>
>>n Fri Nov 25, Joe McWilliams wrote
>>-----------------------------------
>>>Link don't work

>>>On Wed Nov 23, Max wrote
>>>------------------------
>>>>For those of you spending a large part of the day in food prep. Some excellent chopping and dicing music

>>>>https://youtu.be/H5B_Nr2TgJA

>>>>


Message 50e5a913p13-9829-673+02.htm, number 127368, was posted on Mon Nov 28 at 11:13:08
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9824-1183+07.htm

. . and finally, the film:

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



from Mike Leigh's film Mr Turner: www.imdb.com/title/tt2473794/

Message 182d66a00Nn-9829-905-07.htm, number 127369, was posted on Mon Nov 28 at 15:05:19
Dire Straits

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Dire Straits A thriller about merchant ships favorably reviewed by a merchant, or mercantile, marine officer.

https://gcaptain.com/books-deadly-straits-r-e-mcdermott/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Gcaptain+%28gCaptain.com%29

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9829-905+07.htm, number 127369, was edited on Mon Nov 28 at 15:09:07
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9829-905-07.htm

Dire Straits

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Dire Straits A thriller about merchant ships favorably reviewed by a naval architect.

https://gcaptain.com/books-deadly-straits-r-e-mcdermott/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Gcaptain+%28gCaptain.com%29

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Nov 28 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9829-905+07.htm, number 127369, was edited on Mon Nov 28 at 15:09:58
Dire Straits

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Dire Straits, a thriller about merchant ships favorably reviewed by a naval architect.

gcaptain.com/books-deadly-straits-r-e-mcdermott/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Gcaptain+%28gCaptain.com%29

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Nov 28 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9829-905+07.htm, number 127369, was edited on Mon Nov 28 at 19:10:39
Deadly Straits

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Dire Straits, a thriller about merchant ships favorably reviewed by a naval architect.

gcaptain.com/books-deadly-straits-r-e-mcdermott/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Gcap

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Nov 28 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9830-371-90.htm, number 127370, was posted on Tue Nov 29 at 06:10:54
Here's how the missile-free Royal Navy can sink enemy ships after 2018

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


It's tried, tested and proven in all-out war – and we've already got it, unlike the F-35:

‘The solution to the Royal Navy’s post-2018 problem of having no anti-ship weapons is already in service and can even equip the UK’s new aircraft carriers. The Fairey Swordfish is a versatile, rugged torpedo bomber first introduced into service in the 1930s. Having outlived everything introduced to replace it during the WWII, two flying examples remain in service with the RN Historic Flight.

These two aircraft could each be assigned to HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, the 70,000-ton aircraft carriers due to enter naval service in the near future. Although neither carrier has catapults (or, indeed, aircraft until the year 2021), the Swordfish is capable of taking off within 540ft at full power* with the ship steaming into a 20kt wind – which compares very favourably with the QE-class’s 920ft flight deck . .

. . Naysayers and critics will doubtless point to the Swordfish’s lack of stealth and low speed compared to the F-35 but in fact its cruising speed of 100kts is a great advantage over the F-35’s top speed of 500kts. German anti-aircraft gunners aboard the battleship Tirpitz were reportedly unable to hit attacking Swordfish because they flew so slowly the gunners, used to fast modern aircraft, kept missing in front of them.

Moreover, the F-35B is unable to carry torpedoes, which the Swordfish was designed to do from the outset. Putting a Swordfish aboard a QE carrier instantly gives the RN the much-needed anti-surface ship capability that it will lack between 2018 and 2020.

You know it makes perfect sense. Ditch the F-35 white elephant, put the Swordfish on the carriers and let’s make the high seas British again. Rule Britannia! ®’

[www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/17/solution_to_navy_harpoon_missile_withdrawal_problem/]


Message aeda01c000A-9830-1155-07.htm, number 127371, was posted on Tue Nov 29 at 19:14:48
Muzzleloaders in Syria?

Whore'son Beast


www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/11/29/18th-century-cannon-technology-used-syria/

Perhaps cannonades.


Message 50e5a913p13-9831-371-90.htm, number 127372, was posted on Wed Nov 30 at 06:11:13
Puny human sailors still needed . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . until drone machine learning tech catches up:

Drones won’t replace proper sailors anytime soon because, believe it or not, they need more manpower to operate, a Royal Navy admiral has insisted. Naval drones are “not about reducing the requirement for people”, Rear Admiral Paul Bennett told . . El Reg . . instead, they are for putting people into positions where they add “real value”.

At present, unmanned systems - drones - require on average something like four or five operators each, we understand. Rather than enabling cuts in manpower, if anything they require ever more personnel aboard ships to operate them; not a good situation to be in when the Navy is already critically short of heads.

. . While El Reg was assured that current British policy is for a human always to be in the loop, particularly when armed drones such as the infamous Reapers are being used, the question of how much work a human can usefully do while supervising a number of drones is an intriguing one.

While at defence research agency Qinetiq’s Portsdown facility, we were shown a prototype one-man-for-many-drones control system. It was immediately apparent just how quickly operators' workloads escalated if one sea-surface drone encountered a situation requiring sustained human interaction - and how quickly that workload could become overwhelming if more than one drone needed his attention.

The challenge for today’s drone control system designers is to hone their systems into being able to make autonomous decisions at a certain level . . The possibilities for machine learning in the development of tomorrow’s drone control systems is obvious. Whether industry is able to keep up with that challenge is another question.

[www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/17/naval_drones_wont_replace_sailors_just_yet_rn_admiral/]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9831-662+5a.htm, number 127373, was posted on Wed Nov 30 at 11:02:19
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9831-371-90.htm

Yeah, yeah, yeah. . .

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


www.t-online.de/nachrichten/specials/id_46407434/tid_embedded/sid_46128260/si_0/navy-seals.html

Perhaps they'll be replacing "puny sailors" in the RN (which is a long chalk, init?), but not in the USN.

r,

Caltrop


Message ae106607UWK-9831-1054+06.htm, number 127374, was posted on Wed Nov 30 at 17:34:41
in reply to aeda01c000A-9830-1155-07.htm

Re: Muzzleloaders in Syria?

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Breech loading.

Schneider C17s based barrel with modified recoil and breech. WWI era 155mm gun originally manufactured for the French, but also copied by the U.S. Army. The Breech mechanism is a retrofit that makes it look older and might be adapted from a 19th Century percussion fire interrupted screw type of gun.

Not likely that it fires Marble Balls



On Tue Nov 29, Whore'son Beast wrote
------------------------------------
>www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/11/29/18th-century-cannon-technology-used-syria/

>Perhaps cannonades.


Message 182d66a00Nn-9832-489+05.htm, number 127375, was posted on Thu Dec 1 at 08:09:30
in reply to ae106607UWK-9831-1054+06.htm

The trend may carry over in the opposite direction...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


A Samurai matchlock "netsuke" derringer.  The term "netsuke" is a joking reference to fancy kimono button/fastener.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGx3PrBdA_M

Wide ties are coming back next.

r,

Caltrop


On Wed Nov 30, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>Breech loading.

>Schneider C17s based barrel with modified recoil and breech. WWI era 155mm gun originally manufactured for the French, but also copied by the U.S. Army. The Breech mechanism is a retrofit that makes it look older and might be adapted from a 19th Century percussion fire interrupted screw type of gun.

>Not likely that it fires Marble Balls
>
>
>
>On Tue Nov 29, Whore'son Beast wrote
>------------------------------------
>>www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/11/29/18th-century-cannon-technology-used-syria/

>>Perhaps cannonades.


Message 182d66a00Nn-9832-491+05.htm, number 127375, was edited on Thu Dec 1 at 08:11:30
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9832-489+05.htm

The trend may carry over in the opposite direction...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


A Samurai matchlock "netsuke" derringer.  The term "netsuke" is a joking reference to fancy kimono button/fastener.  The video (sigh) shows the netsuke matchlock upside down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGx3PrBdA_M

Wide ties are coming back next.

r,

Caltrop


On Wed Nov 30, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>Breech loading.

>Schneider C17s based barrel with modified recoil and breech. WWI era 155mm gun originally manufactured for the French, but also copied by the U.S. Army. The Breech mechanism is a retrofit that makes it look older and might be adapted from a 19th Century percussion fire interrupted screw type of gun.

>Not likely that it fires Marble Balls
>
>
>
>On Tue Nov 29, Whore'son Beast wrote
>------------------------------------
>>www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/11/29/18th-century-cannon-technology-used-syria/

>>Perhaps cannonades.

[ This message was edited on Thu Dec 1 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9832-509+05.htm, number 127375, was edited on Thu Dec 1 at 08:28:53
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9832-491+05.htm

The trend may carry over in the opposite direction...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


A Samurai matchlock "netsuke" derringer.  The term "netsuke" is a joking reference to fancy kimono button/fastener.  The video (sigh) shows the netsuke matchlock upside down.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGx3PrBdA_M

Here it is displayed in an upright position: auction.catawiki.com/kavels/4139141-antique-matchlock-netsuke-teppo-gun-netsuke-japan-1800-1850-edo-period

Reproductions can be purchase for about $105 US.

Wide ties and white wall tires are coming back next, I know it.

r,

Caltrop


On Wed Nov 30, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>Breech loading.

>Schneider C17s based barrel with modified recoil and breech. WWI era 155mm gun originally manufactured for the French, but also copied by the U.S. Army. The Breech mechanism is a retrofit that makes it look older and might be adapted from a 19th Century percussion fire interrupted screw type of gun.

>Not likely that it fires Marble Balls
>
>
>
>On Tue Nov 29, Whore'son Beast wrote
>------------------------------------
>>www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/11/29/18th-century-cannon-technology-used-syria/

>>Perhaps cannonades.

[ This message was edited on Thu Dec 1 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9832-735-07.htm, number 127376, was posted on Thu Dec 1 at 12:14:39
‘What is the second largest island in Australia after Tasmania?’ . . ,

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference. This is tolerably obscure but Forumites have an advantage: it is named for a historical person with a significant and recurring part in the Canon.

Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780191823534.001.0001/acref-9780191823534-e-63


Message 50e5a913p13-9832-746+59.htm, number 127377, was posted on Thu Dec 1 at 12:26:12
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9831-662+5a.htm

Re: Yeah, yeah, yeah. . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Nov 30, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
Perhaps they'll be replacing "puny sailors" in the RN . . but not in the USN.

All too true, it seems:

The service branch loosened its body fat restrictions in January and is allowing those who failed their exams three or more times to get one more opportunity to be tested this spring under the more lenient guidelines. The Navy said it has been losing too many talented sailors. Some were resorting to liposuction, diet pills and other measures to save their careers . .

[www.military.com/daily-news/2016/03/06/navy-loosens-body-fat-rules-to-retain-sailors.html]


Message 6bd5c1a400A-9832-830+04.htm, number 127378, was posted on Thu Dec 1 at 13:50:14
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9829-905+07.htm

Re: Deadly Straits - A Real Page Turner!

Lee Shore


Per your recommendation I am 1/2 way through my Kindle version and can't put it down. Technical ship details are as complex as POB's and the violence is extreme, but what a great story - really keeps you on the edge of your seat.  Thanks for pointing it out.

On Mon Nov 28, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>Dire Straits, a thriller about merchant ships favorably reviewed by a naval architect.

>gcaptain.com/books-deadly-straits-r-e-mcdermott/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Gcap

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9832-1073+07.htm, number 127379, was posted on Thu Dec 1 at 17:52:43
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9832-735-07.htm

Re: ‘What is the second largest island in Australia after Tasmania?’ . . ,

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Banks? Canada has a pretty big island with that name.


On Thu Dec 1, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>> . . is today’s question from Oxford Reference. This is tolerably obscure but Forumites have an advantage: it is named for a historical person with a significant and recurring part in the Canon.

>Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780191823534.001.0001/acref-9780191823534-e-63


Message 50e5a913p13-9832-1176+07.htm, number 127380, was posted on Thu Dec 1 at 19:36:12
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-9832-1073+07.htm

Re^2: ‘What is the second largest island in Australia after Tasmania?’ . . ,

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Dec 1, Joe McWilliams wrote
----------------------------------
>Banks? Canada has a pretty big island with that name.
>On Thu Dec 1, Chrístõ wrote
>---------------------------
>>> . . is today’s question from Oxford Reference. This is tolerably obscure but Forumites have an advantage: it is named for a historical person with a significant and recurring part in the Canon.

>>Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780191823534.001.0001/acref-9780191823534-e-63

Good suggestion but wrong - the person had a more direct influence on Jack. Think: 'I say to a man go, and he goeth . . '


Message 31bb3b2f00A-9833-262+06.htm, number 127381, was posted on Fri Dec 2 at 04:22:18
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9832-735-07.htm

Re: ‘What is the second largest island in Australia after Tasmania?’ . . ,

wombat


On Thu Dec 1, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>> . . is today’s question from Oxford Reference. This is tolerably obscure but Forumites have an advantage: it is named for a historical person with a significant and recurring part in the Canon.

>Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780191823534.001.0001/acref-9780191823534-e-63

Being a marsupial, I'm confident that the island in question is Melville Island, which is off Darwin, in the Timor Sea. It would have been named after Lord Melville (First Lord of the Admiralty?). the brother of Jack's friend, Heneage Dundas.


Message 50e5a913p13-9833-748+06.htm, number 127382, was posted on Fri Dec 2 at 12:28:04
in reply to 31bb3b2f00A-9833-262+06.htm

Re^2: ‘What is the second largest island in Australia after Tasmania?’ . . ,

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Dec 2, wombat wrote
--------------------------
.  .Being a marsupial, I'm confident that the island in question is Melville Island, which is off Darwin, in the Timor Sea. It would have been named after Lord Melville (First Lord of the Admiralty?). the brother of Jack's friend, Heneage Dundas.

Correct:

' . . Lord Melville, as First Lord of the Admiralty, is present or a background character in several of Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin novels. As a major official favourably disposed to Jack Aubrey, Lord Melville's political interest is often helpful to the captain. O'Brian casts Melville's impeachment for malversation of public monies as a political attack using naval intelligence spending, the details of which cannot be disclosed for security and the safety of intelligence agents—such as Stephen Maturin . .' (wikipedia)

See also: Henry Dundas – lofty hero or lowlife crook? historycompany.co.uk/2014/08/02/henry-dundas-lofty-hero-or-lowlife-crook/ for an account of his deeds and misdeeds.


Message 47b879ac00A-9833-849+06.htm, number 127383, was posted on Fri Dec 2 at 14:09:10
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9833-748+06.htm

Re^3: ‘What is the second largest island in Australia after Tasmania?’ . . ,

Don Seltzer



>On Fri Dec 2, wombat wrote
>--------------------------
It would have been named after Lord Melville (First Lord of the Admiralty?). the brother of Jack's friend, Heneage Dundas.
>Correct:

To be pedantic, Henry Dundas, Lord Melville, was the father of Heneage in the Canon (the real Heneage Dundas was actually a distant relation).
Robert Dundas is the brother, who succeeded his father Henry as First Lord of the Admiralty (from SM on in the Canon).


Message 46d1c4f200A-9833-1133+06.htm, number 127384, was posted on Fri Dec 2 at 18:53:15
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9833-849+06.htm

Re^4: ‘What is the second largest island in Australia after Tasmania?’ . . ,

Max


Yeah!! (what Don said)



On Fri Dec 2, Don Seltzer wrote
-------------------------------
>>>On Fri Dec 2, wombat wrote
>>--------------------------
>It would have been named after Lord Melville (First Lord of the Admiralty?). the brother of Jack's friend, Heneage Dundas.
>>Correct:

>To be pedantic, Henry Dundas, Lord Melville, was the father of Heneage in the Canon (the real Heneage Dundas was actually a distant relation).
>Robert Dundas is the brother, who succeeded his father Henry as First Lord of the Admiralty (from SM on in the Canon).

>


Message 180f41b400A-9833-1169-07.htm, number 127385, was posted on Fri Dec 2 at 19:28:56
Vendee Globe single-handed non-stop around the world

UT Cazaly


https://youtu.be/9KUQdbWUCgY

photographed off the Kerguelen Islands.


Message 180f41b400A-9833-1177+07.htm, number 127386, was posted on Fri Dec 2 at 19:36:36
in reply to 180f41b400A-9833-1169-07.htm

Re: Vendee Globe single-handed non-stop around the world

UT Cazaly


a better link:

https://www.youtube.com/user/VendeeGlobeTV

photographed off the Kerguelen Islands.


Message 50e5a913p13-9833-1182+07.htm, number 127387, was posted on Fri Dec 2 at 19:42:05
in reply to 180f41b400A-9833-1177+07.htm

Working link - without the pesky 's'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Dec 2, UT Cazaly wrote
-----------------------------
>a better link:

>www.youtube.com/user/VendeeGlobeTV

>photographed off the Kerguelen Islands.
>


Message adff84718YV-9834-1069+06.htm, number 127388, was posted on Sat Dec 3 at 17:48:49
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9833-1182+07.htm

Re:Holy Crap!!!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


I'm shivering just watching them....


On Fri Dec 2, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>On Fri Dec 2, UT Cazaly wrote
>-----------------------------
>>a better link:

>>www.youtube.com/user/VendeeGlobeTV

>>photographed off the Kerguelen Islands.
>>


Message 50e5a913p13-9835-378-90.htm, number 127389, was posted on Sun Dec 4 at 06:18:24
UK warships to have less firepower than 19th century equivalents

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


HMS Duncan, Type 45 air defence destroyer. Her Harpoon launchers can be seen just in front of the main superstructure
Royal Navy warships will be less capable of fighting enemy vessels than they were in the 19th century as Britain’s Harpoon anti-ship missile will be withdrawn in two years – with no replacement in sight . . Without the Harpoon missile, the Navy’s escort fleet – that is, Type 45 anti-aircraft destroyers and Type 23 anti-submarine frigates – will be left with purely defensive missile weapons, various automatic guns of up to 30mm calibre and a single 4.5” medium gun.

Warships of the late 19th century, such as the RN’s own Edgar-class cruisers . . typically mounted secondary batteries of ten or twelve 6” guns, along with primary batteries of two 9.2” heavy guns, meaning after 2018 the RN's frontline warships would be hopelessly outgunned by century-old designs.

. . We’re not going to be at war with a naval power any time soon. Does this matter?

Yes. Even though Harpoon has never been fired at another surface warship by the RN, the idea is that our ships at sea should be able to deter potential aggressors, be those Iranian naval speedboats in the Persian Gulf . .or Russian flotillas .  .

. . If the Harpoon is not replaced by 2018 . . the effective offensive range of RN warships will be the 30km of the escorts’ single bow-mounted 4.5” gun . . British naval credibility will vanish down the toilet – and in the modern world where actually firing at another state’s ship could provoke a full-blown war, it is credibility and implied threat that matters most.  . . The RN has no other heavyweight anti-ship missile system in service. The Type 23 fleet will continue in service until the late 2030s . .  but naval chiefs, the Treasury and the MoD are still scrapping over what anti-ship missiles to fit the Type 26s with . .

[www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/16/royal_navy_harpoon_missile_2018_withdrawal_no_replacement/]


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9835-609+05.htm, number 127390, was posted on Sun Dec 4 at 10:09:16
in reply to 180f41b400A-9833-1169-07.htm

Re: Vendee Globe single-handed non-stop around the world

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I thought it would be a single ship, but apparently it's the name of a race with at least two vessels in it.  So apparently they found at least two sailors insane enough to try this.

One thing that's always given me trouble are the terms "port tack" and "starboard tack".  Intuitively it seems so obvious to me that on the port tack the vessel is heeling to port; but from reading the canon it's clear that on the port tack the wind is coming from the port and the vessel is heeling to starboard.  I accept this intellectually but it feels wrong.  Yet here's the English-speaking sailor—you have to wait and let the conversation with Francophone go by first—saying that his current very dangerous-looking tack is the port tack (while his vessel heels to starboard so far that his bow occasionally slips under the oncoming waves), and says he can go much faster on the starboard tack.  Maybe this'll help me get used to the proper wording.

On Fri Dec 2, UT Cazaly wrote
-----------------------------
>https://youtu.be/9KUQdbWUCgY

>photographed off the Kerguelen Islands.


Message aeda02b000A-9835-668-07.htm, number 127391, was posted on Sun Dec 4 at 11:08:17
"Scourge" the Bosun's cat is a star.

Whore'son Beast


jalopnik.com/kitten-survives-300-miles-inside-car-bumper-becomes-co-1789646527

Message 18074b2e00A-9835-1317+04.htm, number 127392, was posted on Sun Dec 4 at 21:56:45
in reply to 46d1c4f200A-9833-1133+06.htm

Re^5: ‘What is the second largest island in Australia after Tasmania?’ . . ,

Jack in the Dust


Let us not be pedantic, for all love.

On Fri Dec 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Yeah!! (what Don said)
>
>
>
>On Fri Dec 2, Don Seltzer wrote
>-------------------------------
>>>>On Fri Dec 2, wombat wrote
>>>--------------------------
>>It would have been named after Lord Melville (First Lord of the Admiralty?). the brother of Jack's friend, Heneage Dundas.
>>>Correct:

>>To be pedantic, Henry Dundas, Lord Melville, was the father of Heneage in the Canon (the real Heneage Dundas was actually a distant relation).
>>Robert Dundas is the brother, who succeeded his father Henry as First Lord of the Admiralty (from SM on in the Canon).

>>


Message 50e5a913p13-9836-375-90.htm, number 127393, was posted on Mon Dec 5 at 06:15:20
Where is the manger in a ship?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


I mean in the nautical sense not the place where the goat is fed.

I found this looking up 'dog in the manger' in the OED and don't recall it from the Canon, though it would have lent itself to jokes at Stephen's expense. Any suggestions?


Message 47b879ac00A-9836-607+5a.htm, number 127394, was posted on Mon Dec 5 at 10:07:00
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9836-375-90.htm

Re: Where is the manger in a ship?

Don Seltzer


On Mon Dec 5, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>I mean in the nautical sense not the place where the goat is fed.

>I found this looking up 'dog in the manger' in the OED and don't recall it from the Canon, though it would have lent itself to jokes at Stephen's expense. Any suggestions?

The manger is a small space in the bows, where the hawse holes are.  It is partitioned off from the deck aft by the manger board, which is intended to restrain the water which leaks in from the hawse holes.

'It is most uncommon damp down here,’ Jack added, pushing his finger deep into the mould on the beam over his bowed head. ‘We certainly need a thorough house-warming, as you might put it.’

‘Much of the wet comes through the hawse-holes and the manger, sir,’ said Pullings, who was very willing to find some virtue in his ship. ‘The bosun has a party there with extra hawse-bags.'

-Ionian Mission


Message 182d66a00Nn-9836-646+04.htm, number 127395, was posted on Mon Dec 5 at 10:46:22
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9835-609+05.htm

For a brief, less nauseating initiation to that feeling of aching vulnerability and that arcing electrical current of fear running from the back of your neck down to the pit of your stomach...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


May I suggest a seven hour crossing of the Kaiwi Channel between Molokai and Oahu in six foot waves (twelve feet if measured trough to crest) in 15-25 kt winds with water coming into the boat as fast as you can bail it, and a cold 8" of water in the bilges no matter what you do.

way up photo Wayup.jpg

No boat visible photo Noboatvis.jpg

back shot photo backview.jpg

Sort of an hors-d'oeuvre to get you ready for supper.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9836-663+04.htm, number 127395, was edited on Mon Dec 5 at 11:02:57
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9836-646+04.htm

For a brief, less nauseating initiation to that feeling of aching vulnerability and that arcing electrical current of fear running from the back of your neck down to the pit of your stomach...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


May I suggest a seven hour crossing of the Kaiwi Channel between Molokai and Oahu in six foot waves (twelve feet if measured trough to crest) in 15-25 kt winds with water coming into the boat as fast as you can bail it, and a cold 8" of water in the bilges no matter what you do.

way up photo Wayup.jpg

No boat visible photo Noboatvis.jpg

back shot photo backview.jpg

 photo x. Koko Head_zps5uhwfpha.jpg

 photo zzz.surfing_zpswlzxl8vz.jpg

 photo zz. way down_zps5zjjafbv.jpg

Sort of an hors-d'oeuvre to get you ready for supper.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Dec 5 by the author ]


Message 46d303ba00A-9836-698+03.htm, number 127396, was posted on Mon Dec 5 at 11:37:55
in reply to 18074b2e00A-9835-1317+04.htm

Re^6: ‘What is the second largest island in Australia after Tasmania?’ . . ,

Max


Pendants? Don't they have their own houses?



Sun Dec 4, Jack in the Dust wrote
------------------------------------
>Let us not be pedantic, for all love.

>On Fri Dec 2, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>Yeah!! (what Don said)
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri Dec 2, Don Seltzer wrote
>>-------------------------------
>>>>>On Fri Dec 2, wombat wrote
>>>>--------------------------
>>>It would have been named after Lord Melville (First Lord of the Admiralty?). the brother of Jack's friend, Heneage Dundas.
>>>>Correct:

>>>To be pedantic, Henry Dundas, Lord Melville, was the father of Heneage in the Canon (the real Heneage Dundas was actually a distant relation).
>>>Robert Dundas is the brother, who succeeded his father Henry as First Lord of the Admiralty (from SM on in the Canon).

>>>


Message 50e5a913p13-9836-781+5a.htm, number 127397, was posted on Mon Dec 5 at 13:01:18
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9836-607+5a.htm

'The water is returned into the sea by the manger-scuppers.’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . 'It is most uncommon damp down here,’ Jack added, pushing his finger deep into the mould on the beam over his bowed head. ‘We certainly need a thorough house-warming, as you might put it.’

‘Much of the wet comes through the hawse-holes and the manger, sir,’ said Pullings, who was very willing to find some virtue in his ship. ‘The bosun has a party there with extra hawse-bags.'
...
Thank you. Here’s what OED has to say:

' . . Anglo-Norman . .  3. Naut. A small space in the bows of a ship enclosed by a low board or coaming, intended to keep the water entering the hawseholes from flooding the deck. Chiefly hist.
. . 1836   E. Howard Rattlin xliii,   The manger, that part of the main-deck directly under the forecastle.
1883   Man. Seamanship for Boys' Training Ships Royal Navy 15   Q. What is a manger: A. A portion of the deck, within the manger board in the bows of a ship, extending athwart from side to side . .

manger-board  n.
1801   J. J. Moore Brit. Mariner's Vocab. sig. N3v,   Manger-Board, a strong bulk head,..serving to stop the water which sometimes rushes in at the hawse-holes.

manger-door  n.
1802   J. Anfrey in Naval Chron. 7 48   A man was..sentry at the manger-door.

manger scupper  n.
1850   J. Greenwood Sailor's Sea-bk. 131   The water is returned into the sea by the manger-scuppers.’


Message adff84718YV-9837-1289-07.htm, number 127398, was posted on Tue Dec 6 at 21:28:47
Christo...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Which I was just reading through and realized that it really is right up your yardarm:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/AubreyMaturin/

you know what to do with the 's'....


Message 50e5a913p13-9838-318+06.htm, number 127399, was posted on Wed Dec 7 at 05:19:22
in reply to adff84718YV-9837-1289-07.htm

Delete the 's' to make it work

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Dec 6, akatow wrote
--------------------------
>Which I was just reading through and realized that it really is right up your yardarm:

>https://www.facebook.com/groups/AubreyMaturin/

>you know what to do with the 's'....
.........................
www.facebook.com/groups/AubreyMaturin/


Message 4588233100A-9840-474-07.htm, number 127400, was posted on Fri Dec 9 at 07:53:59
RIP Paul Elvstrom, who lined the weather rail...

Whore'son Beast


www.nytimes.com/2016/12/08/sports/sailing/paul-elvstrom-d

Message 182bb08e00A-9844-593-30.htm, number 127401, was posted on Tue Dec 13 at 09:53:02
Pacific Crucible (from below)

Max


I just finished volume 2 to the trilogy. Wow! Great story.
Can't wait for this guy to finish writing volume 3 so I can find out who wins this war.

By odd coincidence I met one of the few surviving Code Talkers during the recent December 7 ceremonies. Great old guy. Not many left.

Hard to believe but will there some day be a time where the world remembers the passage of the last Marine to serve in Hu City? Will anybody care?


Message 44654cc700A-9844-1130+1e.htm, number 127402, was posted on Tue Dec 13 at 18:50:30
in reply to 182bb08e00A-9844-593-30.htm

Re: Pacific Crucible (from below)

A-Polly


Many thanks to all who recommended these books.  I ordered the first volume for my father's 91st birthday gift this week; he's a WWII Navy vet who served in the Pacific, and very much enjoyed The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors.  As Max pointed out, there aren't too many left from that era.



On Tue Dec 13, Max wrote
------------------------
>I just finished volume 2 to the trilogy. Wow! Great story.
>Can't wait for this guy to finish writing volume 3 so I can find out who wins this war.

>By odd coincidence I met one of the few surviving Code Talkers during the recent December 7 ceremonies. Great old guy. Not many left.

>Hard to believe but will there some day be a time where the world remembers the passage of the last Marine to serve in Hu City? Will anybody care?


Message 49df0d9bcYC-9844-1154+1e.htm, number 127403, was posted on Tue Dec 13 at 19:14:19
in reply to 182bb08e00A-9844-593-30.htm

Re: Pacific Crucible (from below)

Windguy
klcousineau@veriozn.net


Thanks Max and everyone for recommending these books. I finished Pacific Crucible and have just started the second book -- I have them on Audible and my only complaint is that they changed readers on the second book.

Windguy


Message 182d66a00Nn-9844-1335-07.htm, number 127404, was posted on Tue Dec 13 at 22:15:20
USS Deplorables petition

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


There was a carrier named "Shangrila" based on FDR's whimsical explanation as to the origin of the Doolittle Raid.

Why not this whimsy today?

www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/13/white-house-petition-suggests-naming-next-navy-ship-uss-deplorables.html

This forum is so much fun.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9844-1335+07.htm, number 127404, was edited on Tue Dec 13 at 23:20:21
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9844-1335-07.htm

USS The Deplorables petition

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


There was a carrier named "Shangrila" based on FDR's whimsical explanation as to the origin of the Doolittle Raid.

Why not this whimsy today?

www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/13/white-house-petition-suggests-naming-next-navy-ship-uss-deplorables.html

This forum is so much fun.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Tue Dec 13 by the author ]


Message 182d66a00Nn-9846-632-07.htm, number 127405, was posted on Thu Dec 15 at 10:32:19
C'ntr'ct'ns

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Frazz photo cartoon Frazz 06f4d9c09e3a01340828005056a9545d_zps7vwjiuvz.gif

Snagged from "Frazz."

Perhaps the pay didn't cover the cost of vowels, or they weren't included in slops stores.

I would have thought what hits the fan would be covered by the word "jetsam," rather than "flotsam."

r,

Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-9846-802+07.htm, number 127406, was posted on Thu Dec 15 at 13:22:56
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9846-632-07.htm

Not 'C'ntr'ct'ns' but C'nTRACTSH'Ns

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Dec 15, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>Frazz photo cartoon Frazz 06f4d9c09e3a01340828005056a9545d_zps7vwjiuvz.gif

This is ‘vowel reduction’, which is explained at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_and_vowel_reduction_in_English:

. . Stress is a prominent feature of the English language . . Absence of stress on a syllable . . is frequently associated in English with vowel reduction – many such syllables are pronounced with a centralized vowel (schwa)  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwa:

In linguistics, specifically phonetics and phonology, schwa refers to the mid central vowel sound (rounded or unrounded) in the middle of the vowel chart, denoted by the IPA symbol ə, or another vowel sound close to that position. An example in English is the vowel sound in the 'a' of the word 'about'. Schwa in English is mainly found in unstressed positions . .
…………...
It is usual in manual working class British English and its absence is the main feature of the spoken English of the educated class, who like to term themselves ‘well-spoken’:

‘well-spoken, adj. . . that speaks in a manner considered to be educated or refined . . ’

Their inferiors call them ‘poncey’.

The Navy is unusual in that the officers had to adopt the seamen’s pronunciation to make themselves understood; so their pronunciation has passed into educated speech in the way that of the far more numerous but socially distant rural working class has not.

The short ‘O’ in fo’c’s’le derived from  the same sound in rural working class English, conventionally rendered ‘FOWre’ (from Old English féower) quite distinct from the educated Brit.     /fɔː/ but similar to U.S. /fɔ(ə)r/

Enough!


Message 473ecd18yqu-9846-866+05.htm, number 127407, was posted on Thu Dec 15 at 14:26:33
in reply to 182d66a00Nn-9844-1335+07.htm

Re: USS The Deplorables petition

BrandenburgThree
altoclef789@gmail.com


On Tue Dec 13, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>There was a carrier named "Shangrila" based on FDR's whimsical explanation as to the origin of the Doolittle Raid.

>Why not this whimsy today?

>www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/13/white-house-petition-suggests-naming-next-navy-ship-uss-deplorables.html

>This forum is so much fun.

>r,

>Caltrop

Given the failure to deliver the promised drainage, and the network that gave us this gift, "Swamp Fox" would make a better tribute


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9846-1047+07.htm, number 127408, was posted on Thu Dec 15 at 17:26:54
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9846-802+07.htm

Re: Not 'C'ntr'ct'ns' but C'nTRACTSH'Ns

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"...a prominent feature of the English language..."  I think I already understood that it is not prominent in Japanese at the time I tried to pin down a Francophone on the correct emphasis in certain words.  My attempt went badly; he kept trying to tell me that French speakers don't emphasize syllables much, and I kept assuming I wasn't explaining myself clearly.  Eventually I composed a limerick in French—not a very good one, understand, but one in which the rhythm was unmistakable—and he admitted that Yes, he could see what I was trying to do, but such a beat doesn't make much sense in French.  I concluded that he'd understood me just fine the first few times, but that I must add French to Japanese as a language that doesn't rely on a feature of language that was so ingrained in me I couldn't imagine speaking without it.  How does one compose song, to say nothing of poetry, without rhythm?

Very well, apparently.  But it's hard for me to wrap my tongue around it.  Maybe this is why my French accent is so poor; I'm told it's very good in some other languages.

On Thu Dec 15, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
> This is ‘vowel reduction’, which is explained at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_and_vowel_reduction_in_English:

> . . Stress is a prominent feature of the English language . . Absence of stress on a syllable . . is frequently associated in English with vowel reduction – many such syllables are pronounced with a centralized vowel (schwa)  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwa:

>In linguistics, specifically phonetics and phonology, schwa refers to the mid central vowel sound (rounded or unrounded) in the middle of the vowel chart, denoted by the IPA symbol ə, or another vowel sound close to that position. An example in English is the vowel sound in the 'a' of the word 'about'. Schwa in English is mainly found in unstressed positions . .

>It is usual in manual working class British English and its absence is the main feature of the spoken English of the educated class, who like to term themselves ‘well-spoken’:

>‘well-spoken, adj. . . that speaks in a manner considered to be educated or refined . . ’

>Their inferiors call them ‘poncey’.

>The Navy is unusual in that the officers had to adopt the seamen’s pronunciation to make themselves understood; so their pronunciation has passed into educated speech in the way that of the far more numerous but socially distant rural working class has not.

>The short ‘O’ in fo’c’s’le derived from  the same sound in rural working class English, conventionally rendered ‘FOWre’ (from Old English féower) quite distinct from the educated Brit.     /fɔː/ but similar to U.S. /fɔ(ə)r/

>Enough!

>On Thu Dec 15, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>---------------------------------
>>Frazz photo cartoon Frazz 06f4d9c09e3a01340828005056a9545d_zps7vwjiuvz.gif


Message 182d66a00Nn-9846-1139+07.htm, number 127409, was posted on Thu Dec 15 at 18:59:13
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9846-1047+07.htm

Yokuska is more like Yok'ska, Shabu-shabu is shab'shab', and Sukiyaki is Suk'yaki

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


There are not so much accented syllables in Japanese as there are de-accented vowels that virtually disappear.


"u" in the middle or at the end of a word disappears."i' in the middle of a word will often disappear.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d66a00Nn-9846-1147+05.htm, number 127410, was posted on Thu Dec 15 at 19:07:11
in reply to 473ecd18yqu-9846-866+05.htm

Re^2: USS The Deplorables petition

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com



> Given the failure to deliver the promised drainage, and the network that gave us this gift, "Swamp Fox" would make a better tribute

I believe there was a USS Francis Marion" (LPA-249).

Negative references to alligators might be taken as an affront to the amphibious ('Gator) Navy and cause discomfort in the Marine Corps who values those ships more than the 'Gator Navy's own parent service.

r,

Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-9846-1169+07.htm, number 127411, was posted on Thu Dec 15 at 19:29:37
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9846-802+07.htm

Re: Not 'C'ntr'ct'ns' but C'nTRACTsh'ns

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Dec 15, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Thu Dec 15, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>---------------------------------
>>Frazz photo cartoon Frazz 06f4d9c09e3a01340828005056a9545d_zps7vwjiuvz.gif

> This is ‘vowel reduction’, which is explained at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_and_vowel_reduction_in_English:
>
> . . Stress is a prominent feature of the English language . . Absence of stress on a syllable . . is frequently associated in English with vowel reduction – many such syllables are pronounced with a centralized vowel (schwa)  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwa

>In linguistics, specifically phonetics and phonology, schwa refers to the mid central vowel sound (rounded or unrounded) in the middle of the vowel chart, denoted by the IPA symbol ə, or another vowel sound close to that position. An example in English is the vowel sound in the 'a' of the word 'about'. Schwa in English is mainly found in unstressed positions . .
>…………...
>It is usual in manual working class British English and its absence is the main feature of the spoken English of the educated class, who like to term themselves ‘well-spoken’:
>
>‘well-spoken, adj. . . that speaks in a manner considered to be educated or refined . . ’
>

>Their inferiors call them ‘poncey’.

>The Navy is unusual in that the officers had to adopt the seamen’s pronunciation to make themselves understood; so their pronunciation has passed into educated speech in the way that of the far more numerous but socially distant rural working class has not.

>The short ‘O’ in fo’c’s’le derived from  the same sound in rural working class English, conventionally rendered ‘FOWre’ (from Old English féower) quite distinct from the educated Brit.     /fɔː/ but similar to U.S. /fɔ(ə)r/

>Enough!


Message 46d30bca00A-9846-1377-30.htm, number 127412, was posted on Thu Dec 15 at 22:56:53
Kauri wood

Max


There is a lumber yard in Ashland, WI, that is selling logs and tables from a tree that fell into a peat bog 50,000 years ago. The trees--there's more than one, of course--have now been recovered (they come from New Zealand) and have been placed on the woodworking and home decorating market. Some of the trees were already 2,000 years old when they fell into the bog. The wood is called Kauri and is very beautiful. The wood was already in the ground 30,000 or more years when the first humans migrated to the Americas. The company selling the wood is called Ancientwood, Ltd. What else?    

There is mystery about such wood, more so than about the pyramids, which at 5,000 years old are a relatively recent development.


Message 4588233100A-9847-365-07.htm, number 127413, was posted on Fri Dec 16 at 06:05:38
Interesting article on overbidding on ancient arms (and sneaking them past "she who must be appeased").

Whore'son Beast


"At the top end, huge prices can be realised. A Lloyds Patriotic Fund Sword and Belt, presented to Midshipman Thompson of HMS Pallas “For His Gallant and Spirited Conduct On The Boarding & Carrying In The Boats Of That Ship, The French National Corvette La Tapa-Geuse Of 14 Guns & 95 Men In The River Garonne On The 6th Of April 1806.” (the inscription), and in perfect condition, was estimated at £25,000 to £35,000 in Bonhams’ July 2007 auction. It fetched £55,000."

Read more at www.thefield.co.uk/features/men-at-arms-girls-in-the-dark-22846#OuBcXGkUCi9Wda6G.99



//www.thefield.co.uk/features/men-at-arms-girls-in-the-dark-22846#OuBcXGkUCi9Wda6G.99


Message 50e5a913p13-9847-575+07.htm, number 127414, was posted on Fri Dec 16 at 09:35:42
in reply to 4588233100A-9847-365-07.htm

' . . “A sight too much writing on this for me,” Duddingstone had complained . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Dec 16, Whore'son Beast wrote
------------------------------------
>"At the top end, huge prices can be realised. A Lloyds Patriotic Fund Sword and Belt . . fetched £55,000."

I recall that an impoverished Captain Hornblower had to pawn his:

“I took the liberty, sir,” said Bush, hastily, “of bringing you out your letters — there was a good deal waiting for you.”

“Yes?” said Hornblower.

“This big package is a sword, I’m sure, sir,” said Bush. He was cunning enough to think of ways of capturing Hornblower’s interest.

“Let’s open it, then,” said Hornblower, indulgently.

A sword it was, sure enough, with a gold-mounted scabbard and a gold hilt, and when Hornblower drew it the blue steel blade bore an inscription in gold inlay. It was the sword ‘of one hundred guineas’ value’ which had been presented to him by the Patriotic Fund for his defeat of the Natividad in the Lydia, and which he had left in pawn with Duddingstone the ship’s chandler at Plymouth, as a pledge for payment for captain’s stores when he was commissioning the Sutherland.

“A sight too much writing on this for me,” Duddingstone had complained at the time.

“Let’s see what Duddingstone has to say,” said Hornblower, tearing open the note enclosed in the package.

Sir,

It was with great emotion that I read to-day of your escape from the Corsican’s clutches and I cannot find words to express my relief that the reports of your untimely death were unfounded, nor my admiration of your exploits during your last commission. I cannot reconcile it with my conscience to retain the sword of an officer so distinguished, and have therefore taken the liberty of forwarding the enclosed to you, hoping that in consequence you will wear it when next you enforce Britannia’s dominion of the seas.

Your obedient and humble servant to command.

J. DUDDINGSTONE.

“God bless my soul!” said Hornblower.

He let Bush read the note; Bush was a captain and his equal now, as well as his friend, and there was no disciplinary objection to allowing him to know to what shifts he had been put when commissioning the Sutherland. Hornblower laughed a little self-consciously when Bush looked up at him after reading the note.

“Our friend Duddingstone,” said Hornblower, “must have been very moved to allow a pledge for forty guineas to slip out of his fingers.” He spoke cynically to keep the pride out of his voice, but he was genuinely moved. His eyes would have grown moist if he had allowed them.

[www.rulit.me/books/08-flying-colours-read-237994-45.html]


Message 47b879ac00A-9847-658+07.htm, number 127415, was posted on Fri Dec 16 at 10:58:38
in reply to 4588233100A-9847-365-07.htm

More on the Hornblower and Cochrane connections

Don Seltzer


This action was the historical basis for one of the Midshipman Hornblower stories, in which he helps cut out the French corvette Papillon.  Three midshipmen were awarded Lloyd's Patriotic Fund £30 swords at the time.  

In 2007 the staff of a small museum, the Blackburn Museum and Art Gallery were doing an inventory of their arms strongroom and came across a Lloyd's Patriotic Fund sword that was labelled as having been presented to Lord Cochrane in 1806. The museum staff were puzzled at first, having little experience with naval objects, and not really sure who this Cochrane fellow was. An accompanying note says: 'The sword was presented to the Museum in 1875. It was previously in the hands of a dealer in naval swords, a Mr E Emanuel, but how he acquired it we do not know.'

Research of the LPF records show that six swords were definitely voted for the Pallas action. Cochrane received the £100 sword. Lt Haswell and Master Sutherland received £50 swords. Three midshipmen, JC Crawford, E Perkyns, and WA Thompson were awarded £30 swords. A ledger listing shows the other five swords being delivered to their recipients, but Cochrane's was conspicuously undelivered.

The existence of such a sword was previously unknown. There is no mention of this sword in Cochrane's autobiography or any of the later biographies. The current Earl of Dundonald was contacted, and replied that the Cochrane family had no notion that an LPF sword had been awarded.

The other curious aspect of the sword is that the special inscription
had been deliberately removed from the blade and replaced with a
generic oak leaf design inconsistent with the decoration of the rest
of the blade. A ship's name, normally found on the scabbard, had been
similarly removed. Overlooked was the initial C engraved on the reverse side of the blade.

The last is significant. Of the 60 - 70 £100 LPF swords ever awarded,
only three were for officers with last initial of C. Of these
Codrington and Cumby were awarded a special Trafalgar pattern. The
only non-Trafalgar C sword was Cochrane's.

The strange hidden history of this sword leads to all sorts of speculation.  Perhaps Cochrane pawned it like Hornblower to pay off some debts.  Perhaps the inscription was removed during the time that he was in disgrace for the Stock Exchange scandal.  

Don Seltzer

On Fri Dec 16, Whore'son Beast wrote
------------------------------------
>"At the top end, huge prices can be realised. A Lloyds Patriotic Fund Sword and Belt, presented to Midshipman Thompson of HMS Pallas “For His Gallant and Spirited Conduct On The Boarding & Carrying In The Boats Of That Ship, The French National Corvette La Tapa-Geuse Of 14 Guns & 95 Men In The River Garonne On The 6th Of April 1806.” (the inscription), and in perfect condition, was estimated at £25,000 to £35,000 in Bonhams’ July 2007 auction. It fetched £55,000."

>Read more at www.thefield.co.uk/features/men-at-arms-girls-in-the-dark-22846#OuBcXGkUCi9Wda6G.99
>
>
>
>//www.thefield.co.uk/features/men-at-arms-girls-in-the-dark-22846#OuBcXGkUCi9Wda6G.99


Message 50e5a913p13-9847-692+07.htm, number 127416, was posted on Fri Dec 16 at 11:32:53
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9847-658+07.htm

' . . he sold most of his possessions, including a sword for £108 . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Dec 16, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
The existence of such a sword was previously unknown. Perhaps Cochrane pawned it like Hornblower to pay off some debts.

 photo Screen Shot 2016-12-16 at 16.13.46_1.png
 photo Screen Shot 2016-12-16 at 16.15.50_1.png

etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/3466/1/290354.pdf

Note the date of the thesis..


Message 4588233100A-9847-1105-07.htm, number 127417, was posted on Fri Dec 16 at 18:24:46
Fouling our hawse or cutting our cable?

Whore'son Beast


www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dod-official-chinese-navy-stole-u-s-underwater-drone-n696941

Chinese Navy makes off with US Military Sealift Command underwater drone.


Message 47b879ac00A-9847-1183+07.htm, number 127418, was posted on Fri Dec 16 at 19:44:47
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9847-692+07.htm

Re: ' . . he sold most of his possessions, including a sword for £108 . . '

Don Seltzer


What a great find.  It certainly could be referring to Cochrane's LPF sword, but the mystery remains why the identifying inscriptions were deliberately removed.

The author of this paper, John Sugden, is a superb biographer. His two volume bio of Nelson is the most thoroughly researched that I have read.  I was vaguely aware that his PhD thesis was on Cochrane, but I hadn't known that it was available online.

On Fri Dec 16, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Fri Dec 16, Don Seltzer wrote
>--------------------------------
>The existence of such a sword was previously unknown. Perhaps Cochrane pawned it like Hornblower to pay off some debts.

> photo Screen Shot 2016-12-16 at 16.13.46_1.png
> photo Screen Shot 2016-12-16 at 16.15.50_1.png

>etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/3466/1/290354.pdf

>Note the date of the thesis..


Message 6b4d596ewd5-9848-931-90.htm, number 127419, was posted on Sat Dec 17 at 15:30:52
Chronology of historical films

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Sub zero outside so it's movie day

I tuned into 'The Long Ships' about a third of the way along. In order to get the first part of the story I googled and found my way, via the windings of the rabbit hole, to this site:

www.vernonjohns.org/snuffy1186/movies.html

There are so many films on the 'net for free. The Way Back Machine, Internet Archive and You Tube also

Time for more popcorn!

Tom


Message 49df0d9bcYC-9848-1057-07.htm, number 127420, was posted on Sat Dec 17 at 17:37:48
The destruction of the Yamato

Windguy
klcousineau@veriozn.net


For those reading Ian Toll's two volumes on the war in the Pacific (1941 through 1944), the Yamato stands out as the largest battleship in the world but one that stayed in port and out of the war for most of its life. Here is a description of her destruction at the hands of allied fighters in 1945 -- in line with Toll's work but by a man named Kyle Mizokam from San Francisco.

nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/what-it-took-kill-the-biggest-baddest-battleship-ever-built-18765?hl=1&noRedirect=1

Windguy


Message 50e5a913p13-9849-367-90.htm, number 127421, was posted on Sun Dec 18 at 06:07:07
FO or FFS? (entirely SFW)

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Much end of term merriment from our MPs at Wednesday’s PMQs:

Message 50e5a913p13-9849-381+05.htm, number 127422, was posted on Sun Dec 18 at 06:21:31
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9847-1183+07.htm

Re^2: ' . . he sold most of his possessions, including a sword for £108 . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Dec 16, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>What a great find.  It certainly could be referring to Cochrane's LPF sword, but the mystery remains why the identifying inscriptions were deliberately removed . .

It was easily found by a google search on ‘Cochrane’ + ‘bankruptcy’ and a text search for ‘sword’.

There is, to my mind, no mystery at all. The sword would have been bought by a dealer for resale.

A newly promoted flag officer, with enforced retirement looming a few years, would be glad to save a bit by buying a dress word, not intended for fighting, secondhand, provided the dealer had rubbed out the inscription to disguise its origin as someone else’s ceremonial sword. The more florid the writing, the more time and trouble to obliterate it, so the less it was worth.


Message 602421f200A-9849-543+59.htm, number 127423, was posted on Sun Dec 18 at 09:02:44
in reply to 6b4d596ewd5-9848-931-90.htm

Re: Chronology of historical films

Beached



Thanks for the heads-up, looks quite interesting.



On Sat Dec 17, Scourge's Housemate wrote
----------------------------------------
>Sub zero outside so it's movie day

>I tuned into 'The Long Ships' about a third of the way along. In order to get the first part of the story I googled and found my way, via the windings of the rabbit hole, to this site:

>www.vernonjohns.org/snuffy1186/movies.html

>There are so many films on the 'net for free. The Way Back Machine, Internet Archive and You Tube also

>Time for more popcorn!

>Tom


Message 46d308d300A-9849-981-30.htm, number 127424, was posted on Sun Dec 18 at 16:21:24
Off to Europe for the holidays

Max


I picked up Haleys "Halls of Montezuma".
Looks good. First of a planned trilogy. Reviews are comparing it to POB.
Gotta have something worth a long read. I understand that the airport security in Germany is a nightmare.

Message 58828401sVT-9850-421+1d.htm, number 127425, was posted on Mon Dec 19 at 07:01:10
in reply to 46d308d300A-9849-981-30.htm

Re: Off to Europe for the holidays

Otto
dweller@meinberlikomm.de


> I understand that the airport security in Germany is a nightmare.

Prepare to be pleasantly surprised!


Message 46d3016e00A-9850-491+1d.htm, number 127426, was posted on Mon Dec 19 at 08:11:00
in reply to 58828401sVT-9850-421+1d.htm

Re^2: Off to Europe for the holidays

Max


Immer hoffnungsvoll




n Mon Dec 19, Otto wrote
-------------------------
>> I understand that the airport security in Germany is a nightmare.

>Prepare to be pleasantly surprised!

>


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9850-608+1d.htm, number 127427, was posted on Mon Dec 19 at 10:08:24
in reply to 46d308d300A-9849-981-30.htm

Re: Off to Europe for the holidays

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Nightmare? I've been through Frankfurt airport many times and never had a delay worth mentioning. Maybe I just got lucky. Frohe Weinachten!

On Sun Dec 18, Max wrote
------------------------
>I picked up Haleys "Halls of Montezuma".
>Looks good. First of a planned trilogy. Reviews are comparing it to POB.
>Gotta have something worth a long read. I understand that the airport security in Germany is a nightmare.


Message 50e5a913p13-9850-636+1d.htm, number 127428, was posted on Mon Dec 19 at 10:36:08
in reply to 46d308d300A-9849-981-30.htm

Emma Hamilton

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Something to see if you come to London:

www.rmg.co.uk/see-do/emma-hamilton-seduction-and-celebrity


Message 50e5a913p13-9850-645+04.htm, number 127429, was posted on Mon Dec 19 at 10:45:35
in reply to 4588233100A-9847-1105-07.htm

Drone latest

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Saturday morning, the Pentagon was eager to announce that China would return a U.S. Navy underwater drone . . . In retrospect, the Pentagon may have declared victory too soon . . the South China Morning Post, China's handover of the drone will come "with conditions", adding that "Beijing is expected to demand the United States scale down its ­surveillance in the South China Sea when it hands back a seized US underwater drone." Beijing would also "seek an expansion in the code for unplanned military encounters in the disputed waters to cover drones like the one seized by a Chinese warship off the Philippine coast near Subic Bay on Thursday."

www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-18/china-hand-over-seized-us-drone-conditions

A British view:
Don't panic, friends, but the Chinese navy just nicked one of America's underwater drones
Uncle Sam would like it back, please, pronto
www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/16/chinese_navy_steals_unmanned_seaglider_submersible_in_south_china_sea/

Much drollery in the comments, as usual.


Message 46d30f9400A-9850-687+1d.htm, number 127430, was posted on Mon Dec 19 at 11:27:23
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9850-636+1d.htm

Re: Emma Hamilton

Max



Perhaps after a few pints at the Dukes Head.


n Mon Dec 19, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Something to see if you come to London:
>

>www.rmg.co.uk/see-do/emma-hamilton-seduction-and-celebrity


Message 50e5a913p13-9850-792+1d.htm, number 127431, was posted on Mon Dec 19 at 13:11:50
in reply to 46d30f9400A-9850-687+1d.htm

Re^2: Emma Hamilton

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Dec 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>>Perhaps after a few pints at the Dukes Head.
>
You will be made very welcome! It’s handy for the airport and a good base for both town and country trips. I am to be found in the upper bar every night for the final session 11pm - midnight but would be glad to meet you at any convenient time or place.

www.dukesheadrichmond.com/index.html
www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g191301-d243644-Reviews-The_Dukes_Head_Inn-Richmond_upon_Thames_Greater_London_England.html#REVIEWS

Contact me via chris AT cjsquire.plus.com


Message 4588233100A-9851-366-07.htm, number 127432, was posted on Tue Dec 20 at 06:05:45
Humpbacks vs Orcas; altruism or mistaken identity?

WTLL


news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/08/humpback-whales-save-animals-killer-whales-explained/

Message 50e5a913p13-9851-688+03.htm, number 127433, was posted on Tue Dec 20 at 11:27:41
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9850-645+04.htm

China Blinks:

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . Beijing Returns Seized Underwater Drone

' . . China's defense ministry said in a brief statement the drone had been given back to the United States on Tuesday. "After friendly consultations between the Chinese and U.S. sides, the handover work for the U.S. underwater drone was smoothly completed in relevant waters in the South China Sea at midday," the ministry said. When prompted by Reuters, the defense ministry declined to give more details about the handover. . .  '

[www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-20/china-blinks-beijing-returns-seized-underwater-drone]


Message 041077a400A-9851-1075-90.htm, number 127434, was posted on Tue Dec 20 at 17:55:53
Tiger cruise

CJP


Once again I'm taking advantage of an opportunity for a day at sea on the USS Carl Vinson, a Nimitz-class carrier based in San Diego in two weeks.  This time I'm taking my daughter who's heard my stories and wants to see the activity first-hand.  The previous adventures have included flight deck ops with Super Hornets doing touch & goes, supersonic low altitude fly-bys, live ordnance drops on floating targets, and gunnery exercises with the Mk38s and M2s.  
Friends and family are given virtual free-run of the ship (except for sensitive engineering areas) and my iPhone-based health monitor app showed 7.8 miles of walking and 28 stories of climbing - it is a huge vessel.  One sailor I met two years ago told me a story about his assignment in the Arabian Sea that involved clearing out the 'forward ice cream locker' (I didn't know there was an 'aft ice cream locker' let alone one forward.  This was to make way for the remains of UBL while they figured out the correct Muslim ritual for burial at sea - a unique bit of naval history.  
This is a long way from 'manger scuppers' and setting the fore topgallants, but there is little to match by way of standing on the edge of the flight deck while making turns for 30 knots into a 20 knot headwind -  a veritable hurricane over the deck.  I'm as excited as a teenager - a rare status for this old bag of bones.  I shudder every time I think of the short and stacked bunks of the crewmen and the showers shared by forty four decks down.  
Praying for good weather and no Russian or Chinese submarines lurking off SoCal...
CJP

Message 6242ba7500A-9851-1188-90.htm, number 127435, was posted on Tue Dec 20 at 19:47:59
C'ntr'ct'ns

YA


From below as that thread is about to expire.

The next time I am having br'unch with CINCLANT and COMCRUDESGRU (Which will be never) we be discussing these C'ntr'ct'ns you speak of. You'd think a SEAL would figure out that acronyms are C'ntr'ct'ns for people really in a hurry.


Message 4588233100A-9852-426-07.htm, number 127436, was posted on Wed Dec 21 at 07:06:09
Happy Solstice-how Druidical

WTLL


www.telegraph.co.uk/christmas/0/winter-solstice-2016-shortest-day-year-time/

Message 182d66a00Nn-9852-524+59.htm, number 127437, was posted on Wed Dec 21 at 08:43:56
in reply to 6242ba7500A-9851-1188-90.htm

Re: C'ntr'ct'ns

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Tue Dec 20, YA wrote
-----------------------
>From below as that thread is about to expire.

>The next time I am having br'unch with CINCLANT and COMCRUDESGRU (Which will be never) we be discussing these C'ntr'ct'ns you speak of. You'd think a SEAL would figure out that acronyms are C'ntr'ct'ns for people really in a hurry.

You'd think. But where profanity is used for punctuation to fill out deflated words and sentences (even splitting syllables), I'd have to say for the most part that's a "big negatory, yessir, out here."

r,

Caltrop


Message 6b4d5717wd5-9852-653+07.htm, number 127438, was posted on Wed Dec 21 at 10:53:33
in reply to 4588233100A-9852-426-07.htm

Re: Happy Solstice-how Druidical

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Very informative

In the article there is a link to street maps of cities around the world with summer and winter solstice alignments

I had the good fortune of being at Chichen Itza in the Yucatan on Spring Equinox.  The experience was so amazing!  

Tom


Message 182d66a00Nn-9852-867+59.htm, number 127437, was edited on Wed Dec 21 at 14:26:46
and replaces message 182d66a00Nn-9852-524+59.htm

Re: C'ntr'ct'ns

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Tue Dec 20, YA wrote
-----------------------
>From below as that thread is about to expire.

>The next time I am having br'unch with CINCLANT and COMCRUDESGRU (Which will be never) we be discussing these C'ntr'ct'ns you speak of. You'd think a SEAL would figure out that acronyms are C'ntr'ct'ns for people really in a hurry.

You'd think. But where profanity is used for punctuation to fill out deflated words and sentences (even splitting syllables), I'd have to say for the most part that's a "big negatory, yessir. Out, here."

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Dec 21 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9853-387-90.htm, number 127439, was posted on Thu Dec 22 at 06:27:29
James L. Haley’s “The Shores of Tripoli” - WSJ review

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


A long time ago I was puzzled by the anthem sung by the U.S. Marines. “From the halls of Montezuma” made sense to me, but how and when had the American Navy and Marines found themselves engaged in the Mediterranean on “the shores of Tripoli”? Well, anyone as ignorant as I was then will have the answer to the puzzle splendidly provided to them by “The Shores of Tripoli” (Putnam, 448 pages, $26), James L. Haley’s novel of the Barbary War in the early years of the 19h century. It’s the best sort of historical novel, one in which history and fiction are joined in the happiest of marriages: The history is thoroughly researched, the fiction inventive, the style at once easygoing and rapid.

. . In his treatment of Muslim rulers—and Muslims in general—Mr. Haley stays very much in period. There is no, or very little, pretense toward 21st-century correctness. They are cruel, treacherous and mostly untrustworthy, even if sometimes impressive. And they are seen through the eyes of what would now be condemned as Western imperialists. It would be poor history to present them otherwise. In the clash of civilizations, Mr. Haley is at one with Kipling and John Buchan.

This is a marvelous and richly enjoyable novel, and the intended series to follow promises to do for the American Navy and the Marines what C.S. Forester and Patrick O’Brian did for the Royal Navy. It is that good. The relationship between Bliven and Sam has naturally not yet acquired the emotional and intellectual complexity of that between O’Brian’s Aubrey and Maturin, but we can look forward to that developing. Meanwhile this is a book that, like so much of the best fiction, makes you both think and feel. More, please.
…….
A comment: . . 'Hmm. Wonder how far the series can go? Barbary pirates, War of 1812, then what? These Midshipmen will have to be over 70 by Fort Sumter.'


www.wsj.com/articles/an-american-patrick-obrian-1481924374


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9853-731+55.htm, number 127440, was posted on Thu Dec 22 at 12:10:45
in reply to 6b4d596ewd5-9848-931-90.htm

Oh...dear

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


A serious mistake:  I looked at this list.  I could spend a few hours just reading the notes, but the real danger is that I'll get curious ("the Eastern Zhou dynasty"?  "The real Hereward the Wake fought the Norman invasion of England"?) and never emerge.

On Sat Dec 17, Scourge's Housemate wrote
----------------------------------------
>Sub zero outside so it's movie day

>I tuned into 'The Long Ships' about a third of the way along. In order to get the first part of the story I googled and found my way, via the windings of the rabbit hole, to this site:

>www.vernonjohns.org/snuffy1186/movies.html

>There are so many films on the 'net for free. The Way Back Machine, Internet Archive and You Tube also

>Time for more popcorn!


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9853-732+55.htm, number 127440, was edited on Thu Dec 22 at 12:12:26
and replaces message 4747fb3e8HW-9853-731+55.htm

Oh...dear

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


A serious mistake:  I looked at this list.  I could spend a few hours just reading the notes, but the real danger is that I'll get curious ("the Eastern Zhou dynasty"?  "The real Hereward the Wake fought the Norman invasion of England"?) and never emerge.

By the way, I read The Long Ships in my twenties and never forgot it, but I didn't remember that it had been made into a movie.  Is it any good?

On Sat Dec 17, Scourge's Housemate wrote
----------------------------------------
>Sub zero outside so it's movie day

>I tuned into 'The Long Ships' about a third of the way along. In order to get the first part of the story I googled and found my way, via the windings of the rabbit hole, to this site:

>www.vernonjohns.org/snuffy1186/movies.html

>There are so many films on the 'net for free. The Way Back Machine, Internet Archive and You Tube also

>Time for more popcorn!

[ This message was edited on Thu Dec 22 by the author ]


Message 68cdacd4gpf-9853-1344-07.htm, number 127441, was posted on Thu Dec 22 at 22:23:44
Big brig

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Oh, oh. In Arturo Perez-Reverte's 'The Siege,' we have a French Brigantine sailing vessel 800 feet long! A typo?
Otherwise a terrific story.

Message 50e5a913p13-9854-791-07.htm, number 127442, was posted on Fri Dec 23 at 13:11:10
'According to the English proverb of what does the devil make his Christmas pies?' . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today's question from Oxford Reference; find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780198734901.001.0001/acref-9780198734901-e-531

Message 4981ca22cZn-9854-853+06.htm, number 127443, was posted on Fri Dec 23 at 14:13:12
in reply to 68cdacd4gpf-9853-1344-07.htm

Waaaaay-too-big brig

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


HMS Speedy, Cochrane's ship, was 78' 3" long.  So, 80 feet long is about right.  

One too many zeros so very well may be a typo.  


On Thu Dec 22, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Oh, oh. In Arturo Perez-Reverte's 'The Siege,' we have a French Brigantine sailing vessel 800 feet long! A typo?
>Otherwise a terrific story.


Message 5deca71900A-9854-944+06.htm, number 127444, was posted on Fri Dec 23 at 15:43:40
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9854-853+06.htm

Re: Waaaaay-too-big brig

Max


Perhaps he referred to Brigantine, New Jersey. A town, which in 1805, might well have been 800 feet long.:)

I'm reminded of a Fenimore-Cooper story, much reviled by Sam Clemmons, that contained an impossibly long canoe.



On Fri Dec 23, Mark Henry wrote
-------------------------------
>HMS Speedy, Cochrane's ship, was 78' 3" long.  So, 80 feet long is about right.  

>One too many zeros so very well may be a typo.  
>
>
>On Thu Dec 22, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>Oh, oh. In Arturo Perez-Reverte's 'The Siege,' we have a French Brigantine sailing vessel 800 feet long! A typo?
>>Otherwise a terrific story.


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9854-982+06.htm, number 127445, was posted on Fri Dec 23 at 16:21:43
in reply to 5deca71900A-9854-944+06.htm

Re^2: Waaaaay-too-big brig

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


800 feet and 240 tons, I believe it was. Seemed a bit unlikely.


On Fri Dec 23, Max wrote
------------------------
>Perhaps he referred to Brigantine, New Jersey. A town, which in 1805, might well have been 800 feet long.:)

>I'm reminded of a Fenimore-Cooper story, much reviled by Sam Clemmons, that contained an impossibly long canoe.
>
>
>
>On Fri Dec 23, Mark Henry wrote
>-------------------------------
>>HMS Speedy, Cochrane's ship, was 78' 3" long.  So, 80 feet long is about right.  

>>One too many zeros so very well may be a typo.  
>>
>>
>>On Thu Dec 22, Joe McWilliams wrote
>>-----------------------------------
>>>Oh, oh. In Arturo Perez-Reverte's 'The Siege,' we have a French Brigantine sailing vessel 800 feet long! A typo?
>>>Otherwise a terrific story.


Message 4588233100A-9854-1042-07.htm, number 127446, was posted on Fri Dec 23 at 17:22:06
Annual posting of Sting performing "Christmas at Sea" from Durham Castle

WTLL


m.youtube.com/watch?v=lxZNTZhloiQ

and one of the more tech savvy Lissuns can probably re-post this so it plays directly.


Message 5deca71900A-9854-1048+06.htm, number 127447, was posted on Fri Dec 23 at 17:28:22
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-9854-982+06.htm

Re^3: Waaaaay-too-big brig

Max



A homage perhaps?
The 800 feet seems more than coincidental.

On Fri Dec 23, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>800 feet and 240 tons, I believe it was. Seemed a bit unlikely.
>
>
>On Fri Dec 23, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Perhaps he referred to Brigantine, New Jersey. A town, which in 1805, might well have been 800 feet long.:)

>>I'm reminded of a Fenimore-Cooper story, much reviled by Sam Clemmons, that contained an impossibly long canoe.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri Dec 23, Mark Henry wrote
>>-------------------------------
>>>HMS Speedy, Cochrane's ship, was 78' 3" long.  So, 80 feet long is about right.  

>>>One too many zeros so very well may be a typo.  
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu Dec 22, Joe McWilliams wrote
>>>-----------------------------------
>>>>Oh, oh. In Arturo Perez-Reverte's 'The Siege,' we have a French Brigantine sailing vessel 800 feet long! A typo?
>>>>Otherwise a terrific story.


Message 50e5a913p13-9854-1185+06.htm, number 127448, was posted on Fri Dec 23 at 19:45:05
in reply to 5deca71900A-9854-1048+06.htm

Re^4: Waaaaay-too-big brig

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The original measure would have been in metres: 27 m = 80 '. So probably a typo by the translators unnoticed by the copy editor.

On Fri Dec 23, Max wrote
------------------------
>>A homage perhaps?
>The 800 feet seems more than coincidental.

>On Fri Dec 23, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>800 feet and 240 tons, I believe it was. Seemed a bit unlikely.
>>
>>
>>On Fri Dec 23, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>Perhaps he referred to Brigantine, New Jersey. A town, which in 1805, might well have been 800 feet long.:)

>>>I'm reminded of a Fenimore-Cooper story, much reviled by Sam Clemmons, that contained an impossibly long canoe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Fri Dec 23, Mark Henry wrote
>>>-------------------------------
>>>>HMS Speedy, Cochrane's ship, was 78' 3" long.  So, 80 feet long is about right.  

>>>>One too many zeros so very well may be a typo.  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Thu Dec 22, Joe McWilliams wrote
>>>>-----------------------------------
>>>>>Oh, oh. In Arturo Perez-Reverte's 'The Siege,' we have a French Brigantine sailing vessel 800 feet long! A typo?
>>>>>Otherwise a terrific story.


Message 50e5a913p13-9854-1187+07.htm, number 127449, was posted on Fri Dec 23 at 19:46:50
in reply to 4588233100A-9854-1042-07.htm

Re: Annual posting of Sting performing "Christmas at Sea" from Durham Castle

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Dec 23, WTLL wrote
-------------------------
>m.youtube.com/watch?v=lxZNTZhloiQ

>and one of the more tech savvy Lissuns can probably re-post this so it plays directly.

'Share' => 'Embed' =>


Message 50e5a913p13-9854-1188+07.htm, number 127450, was posted on Fri Dec 23 at 19:47:51
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9854-1187+07.htm

Re^2: Annual posting . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Dec 23, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Fri Dec 23, WTLL wrote
>-------------------------
>>m.youtube.com/watch?v=lxZNTZhloiQ

>>and one of the more tech savvy Lissuns can probably re-post this so it plays directly.

>'Share' => 'Embed' =>
>


Message 2547288a00A-9861-1031-30.htm, number 127451, was posted on Fri Dec 30 at 17:11:45
Fine fettle

Max


The phrase fine fettle came up today. Because I spend way too much time with you sorry bastards I, of course, had to look it up.
Now I'm faced with the following gibberish. I mean, at what point did "to fettle the tits" cease meaning to dress the horse?

Pronunciation: /ˈfɛt(ə)l/ Forms: ME–15 fettel, ME–16 fetle, (ME fettil, fetyl), ME–15 fetel(e, 18 dial. fottle, ME– fettle.(Show Less) Etymology: Possibly Old English fętel, fettle n.1; the primary sense would then be ‘to gird up’.(Show Less) 1. Thesaurus » Categories »

a. trans. To make ready, put in order, arrange. Now only dial. to put to rights, ‘tidy up’, scour; also, to groom (a horse), attend to (cattle).

a1400–50 Alexander 626 And faste by his enfourme was fettild his place.

c1400 (▸?c1390) Sir Gawain & Green Knight (1940) l. 656 Now alle þese fyue syþeȝ, forsoþe, were fetled on þis knyȝt.

c1400 (▸?c1380) Patience l. 38 In þe tyxte þere þyse two arn on teme layde, Hit arn fettled in on forme.

c1400 (1380) Cleanness (1920) l. 585 He þat fetly in face fettled alle eres.

1541 Schole House of Women sig. Civ, Our fyly is fetlyd vnto the sadle.

1787 F. Grose Provinc. Gloss., To fettle th' tits, to dress the horses.

1849 A. Brontë Agnes Grey (1858) 360, I..fettled up th' fireplace a bit.

1864 T. Clarke in Kendal Mercury 30 Jan., Woif hed fottled him a noice loil poi i' thoon.

1880 Dorothy 46, I can..Fettle both horses and cows. (Hide quotations)


Message 50e5a913p13-9862-655-90.htm, number 127452, was posted on Sat Dec 31 at 10:55:11
9 literary New Year’s resolutions

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘Do you need some inspiration for your New Year’s resolutions? If you’re in a resolution rut and feeling some of that winter gloom, then you’re not alone . . To help you on your way to an exciting start to 2017, we’ve enlisted the help of some of history’s greatest literary and philosophical figures–on their own resolutions, and inspiring thoughts for the New Year . . ‘

- See more at: blog.oup.com/2016/12/literary-new-years-resolutions/

It includes this from Fanny Burney*:

‘ . . 4. Go with the flow: “I opened the new year with what composure I could acquire…and I made anew the best resolutions I was equal to forming, that I would do what I could to curb all spirit of repining, and to content myself calmly—unresistingly, at least, with my destiny.”**

– In stoic fashion on 1 January 1787, the English satirical novelist resolves to content herself with her destiny. If you’re struggling to retain your composure this January, “be like Burney” and go with the flow . . ‘

* intimate friend of Hester Thrale - Queeney’ - Jack Aubrey’s maths teacher.

** She had been appointed second keeper of the robes to Queen Charlotte: ‘ . . Frances was compelled to work long hours, to attend her royal mistress through uneventful days and nights, and to live a life of dull routine, menial activity, and rigid protocol . . this uneventful tenor of living was finally shattered by the onset of the king's first serious attack of mental illness in 1788 . . ’ (DNB)


Message 50e5a913p13-9862-664-90.htm, number 127453, was posted on Sat Dec 31 at 11:04:05
The “Desolation IslandS.”

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



The Kerguelen Islands are an overseas territory of France. But their far-off location in the southern Indian Ocean places these islands far closer to Antarctica than to mainland Europe. In fact, the islands are so remote and the landscape so harsh that they have also been called the “Desolation Islands.”

On October 28, 2016, the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) instrument on NASA’s Terra satellite captured this natural-color image of the Kerguelen Islands . .

[earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=89328&src=eoa-iotd]


Message 47b879ac00A-9862-911+5a.htm, number 127454, was posted on Sat Dec 31 at 15:11:07
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9862-655-90.htm

Re: 9 literary New Year’s resolutions

Don Seltzer


On Sat Dec 31, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>It includes this from Fanny Burney*:

>‘ . . 4. Go with the flow: “I opened the new year with what composure I could acquire…and I made anew the best resolutions I was equal to forming, that I would do what I could to curb all spirit of repining, and to content myself calmly—unresistingly, at least, with my destiny.”**

>– In stoic fashion on 1 January 1787, the English satirical novelist resolves to content herself with her destiny. If you’re struggling to retain your composure this January, “be like Burney” and go with the flow . . ‘

>* intimate friend of Hester Thrale - Queeney’ - Jack Aubrey’s maths teacher.

I believe that Fanny was close friends with the Hester Thrale who was Queeney's mother.  A closer connection to Jack is through Fanny's brother James who sailed with Cook and was at one time Jack's captain. James Burney gave Jack one of Fanny's novels but he couldn't get into it.

Fanny's life became far more interesting after she married a French nobleman and moved to Paris just before the war resumed in 1803.  Read about her medical encounter with Napoleon's physician.


Message 50e5a913p13-9862-913+1d.htm, number 127455, was posted on Sat Dec 31 at 15:13:18
in reply to 2547288a00A-9861-1031-30.htm

'He hath his tyt, and she likewise her gull . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Dec 30, Max wrote
------------------------
. . Now I'm faced with the following gibberish. I mean, at what point did "to fettle the tits" cease meaning to dress the horse?

It still may do in the eventing* and show jumping world, where you may encounter a tit upon a tit:

'tit n.3   apparently of onomatopoeic origin, as a term for a small animal or object; found also to some extent in Scandinavian . .
1. a. A name for a horse small of kind, or not full grown; in later use often applied in depreciation or meiosis to any horse; a nag. Now rare.
1548 W. Patten Exped. Scotl. D j, He rode on a trottynge tyt well woorth a coople of shillynges.
. . 1894 J. D. Astley Fifty Years of my Life II. 186 A very promising tit named Woodstock . .

2. a. A girl or young woman: often qualified as little: cf. chit n.1; also applied indiscriminately to women of any age (? dial.). (a) Usually in depreciation or disapproval: esp. one of loose character, a hussy, a minx. (b) Sometimes in affection or admiration, or playful meiosis. (Common in 17th and 18th c.; now low slang.)
1599 T. M. Micro-cynicon ii. sig. B5v, He hath his tyt, and she likewise her gull. Gull he, Trull she.
. . 1969 H. E. Bates Vanished World ix. 87 ‘The old tit’ doddered forth... I see her as a kind of..diminutive nun, untouched and unprotected . . ‘ (OED)

* 'The act or practice of competing in horse trials (one-, two-, or three-day events).
. . 1972 Observer 3 Dec. (Colour Suppl.) 85/1 We have not found a less clumsy name than ‘eventing’ for that thrilling exercise in all-round horsemanship, the heart of which is a cross-country gallop . . '


Message 50e5a913p13-9862-936+5a.htm, number 127456, was posted on Sat Dec 31 at 15:36:06
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9862-911+5a.htm

Fanny and the 2 Hester Thrales

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Dec 31, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
I believe that Fanny was close friends with the Hester Thrale who was Queeney's mother.  A closer connection to Jack is through Fanny's brother James who sailed with Cook and was at one time Jack's captain. James Burney gave Jack one of Fanny's novels but he couldn't get into it.

‘ . . For Frances, the most significant new contact came when her father was introduced to the brewer Henry Thrale at a dinner given by Joshua Reynolds in 1776. By the end of the year Dr Burney had met the memoirist Hester Thrale (later Piozzi), visited the couple's home at Streatham, and begun to give weekly music lessons there to their eldest daughter Queeney (christened Hester).

Frances became a habituée of this circle . . in March 1777 . . she was impressed by the polished and self-confident Hester Thrale. For her part, Hester considered the Burneys ‘a very low Race of Mortals’, but she gradually took to Frances and for the next few years the two women retained an outwardly warm friendship . .

In the early 1780s Frances’ . .  friendship with Hester Thrale suffered. Hester Thrale's second marriage to Gabriel Piozzi drove a wedge between (them), as it estranged almost all the bluestockings and former members of the Streatham set. Frances made little secret of her distaste for the match, and when it took place in July 1784 the break was irrevocable.

Hester thought that Frances had secretly abetted her daughter Queeney in scheming against Piozzi, and rightly judged that the socially insecure Burney clan were embarrassed by the prospect of a misalliance. The two women did not meet again until 1815, when Frances called on the widowed Mrs Piozzi in Bath; Hester claimed to have perfectly forgiven ‘l'aimable traitresse’, but it was too late to resume cordial relations . . ‘
(DNB)


Message 5deca71900A-9862-1032+1d.htm, number 127457, was posted on Sat Dec 31 at 17:11:58
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9862-913+1d.htm

Re: 'He hath his tyt, and she likewise her gull . . '

Max


Thank you.
Seeing the accompanying photo I am reminded of the art exhibit where the sailors all stand aghast at the picture of a ship doomed against a lee shore. I am having trouble picturing both horse and rider clearing that jump without disaster.


On Sat Dec 31, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Fri Dec 30, Max wrote
>------------------------
> . . Now I'm faced with the following gibberish. I mean, at what point did "to fettle the tits" cease meaning to dress the horse?

>It still may do in the eventing* and show jumping world, where you may encounter a tit upon a tit:
>
>'tit  n.3    apparently of onomatopoeic origin, as a term for a small animal or object; found also to some extent in Scandinavian . .
>1. a. A name for a horse small of kind, or not full grown; in later use often applied in depreciation or meiosis to any horse; a nag. Now rare.
>1548   W. Patten Exped. Scotl. D j,   He rode on a trottynge tyt well woorth a coople of shillynges.
> . . 1894   J. D. Astley Fifty Years of my Life II. 186   A very promising tit named Woodstock . .

>2. a. A girl or young woman: often qualified as little: cf. chit n.1; also applied indiscriminately to women of any age (? dial.).  (a) Usually in depreciation or disapproval: esp. one of loose character, a hussy, a minx.  (b) Sometimes in affection or admiration, or playful meiosis. (Common in 17th and 18th c.; now low slang.)
>1599   T. M. Micro-cynicon ii. sig. B5v,   He hath his tyt, and she likewise her gull. Gull he, Trull she.
> . . 1969   H. E. Bates Vanished World ix. 87   ‘The old tit’ doddered forth... I see her as a kind of..diminutive nun, untouched and unprotected . . ‘ (OED)

>* 'The act or practice of competing in horse trials (one-, two-, or three-day events).
> . . 1972   Observer 3 Dec. (Colour Suppl.) 85/1   We have not found a less clumsy name than ‘eventing’ for that thrilling exercise in all-round horsemanship, the heart of which is a cross-country gallop . . '


Message 31bb321100A-9862-110+5a.htm, number 127458, was posted on Sun Jan 1 at 01:50:16
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9862-655-90.htm

Re: 9 literary New Year’s resolutions

wombat



>It includes this from Fanny Burney*:

>‘ . . 4. Go with the flow: “I opened the new year with what composure I could acquire…and I made anew the best resolutions I was equal to forming, that I would do what I could to curb all spirit of repining, and to content myself calmly—unresistingly, at least, with my destiny.”**

>– In stoic fashion on 1 January 1787, the English satirical novelist resolves to content herself with her destiny. If you’re struggling to retain your composure this January, “be like Burney” and go with the flow . . ‘

I wonder why the writer chose to quote Fanny Burney? Fanny was not giving herself good advice - going with the flow in 1787 was nearly the death of her. She and her father were Tories who were impressed by her position at court as an assistant dresser to the Queen but "after five years slavery...all who saw her pale face, her emaciated figure, and her feeble walk, predicted that her sufferings would soon be over." (Macaulay). Friends of the Burneys agitated to finally get her father to procure her release from this soul-deadening, physically and psychologically debilitating work. She got free and was "allowed" to being writing again.




Message 31bb321100A-9862-133+5a.htm, number 127459, was posted on Sun Jan 1 at 02:13:03
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9862-936+5a.htm

Re: Fanny and the 2 Hester Thrales

wombat


I've been getting acquainted with various people POB mentions in the canon - by chance, just because I've developed an interest in that period and am probably reading some of the sources POB would have. I'm surprised that Queenie is portrayed quite so generously in the canon. Here is Samuel Rogers, who knew everybody:

The world was most unjust in blaming Mrs. Thrale for marrying
Piozzi : he was a very handsome, gentlemanly and
amiable person and made her a very good husband.
In the evening he used to play to us most beauti-
fully on the piano. Her daughters never would
see her after that marriage ; and (poor woman)
when she was at a very great age I have
heard her say that quote " she would go down upon
her knees to them, if they would only be reconciled
to her."


Message 5deca71900A-9862-508+4c.htm, number 127460, was posted on Sun Jan 1 at 08:28:20
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9853-732+55.htm

Re: The Long Ships, the Black Rose

Max



More of a curiosity. The casting is just bizarre. The book is much better.

Bob, did you read or see "The Black Rose"? Similar material to the long ships but better in both genres.



On Thu Dec 22, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------

>By the way, I read The Long Ships in my twenties and never forgot it, but I didn't remember that it had been made into a movie.  Is it any good?

>On Sat Dec 17, Scourge's Housemate wrote
>----------------------------------------
>>Sub zero outside so it's movie day

>>I tuned into 'The Long Ships' about a third of the way along. In order to get the first part of the story I googled and found my way, via the windings of the rabbit hole, to this site:

>>www.vernonjohns.org/snuffy1186/movies.html

>>There are so many films on the 'net for free. The Way Back Machine, Internet Archive and You Tube also

>>Time for more popcorn!


Message 330946e300A-9862-535+5a.htm, number 127461, was posted on Sun Jan 1 at 08:55:31
in reply to 31bb321100A-9862-110+5a.htm

Re^2: 9 literary New Year’s resolutions

Guest


On Sun Jan 1, wombat wrote
--------------------------
>>> It includes this from Fanny Burney*:
>> ‘ . . 4. Go with the flow: “I opened the new year with what
>> composure I could acquire…and I made anew the best resolutions I
>> was equal to forming, that I would do what I could to curb all
>> spirit of repining, and to content myself calmly—unresistingly,
>> at least, with my destiny.”**
>>
>> – In stoic fashion on 1 January 1787, the English satirical
>> novelist resolves to content herself with her destiny. If you’re
>> struggling to retain your composure this January, “be like
>> Burney” and go with the flow . . ‘
>
> I wonder why the writer chose to quote Fanny Burney? Fanny was
> not giving herself good advice - going with the flow in 1787 was
> nearly the death of her. She and her father were Tories who were
> impressed by her position at court as an assistant dresser to the
> Queen but "after five years slavery...all who saw her pale face,
> her emaciated figure, and her feeble walk, predicted that her
> sufferings would soon be over." (Macaulay). Friends of the
> Burneys agitated to finally get her father to procure her release
> from this soul-deadening, physically and psychologically
> debilitating work. She got free and was "allowed" to being
> writing again.

Yes, poor Fanny.  Unlike Jane Austen, she and her family are
explicitly mentioned in the canon.  From "The Fortune of War":

  ‘I never was a great reader,’ said Jack. His friends looked down
  at their wine and smiled. ‘I mean I never could get along with
  your novels and tales. Admiral Burney – Captain Burney then –
  lent me one wrote by his sister when we were coming back with a
  slow convoy from the West Indies; but I could not get through
  with it – sad stuff, I thought. Though I dare say the fault was
  in me, just as some people cannot relish music; for Burney
  thought the world of it, and he was as fine a seaman as any in
  the service. He sailed with Cook, and you cannot say fairer than
  that.’

  ‘That is the best qualification for a literary critic I ever
  heard of,’ said Yorke. ‘What was the name of the book?’

  ‘There you have me,’ said Jack. ‘But it was a small book, in
  three volumes, I think; and it was all about love. Every novel I
  have ever looked into is all about love; and I have looked into
  a good many, because Sophie loves them, and I read aloud to her
  while she knits, in the evening. All about love.’

BTW, I read a biography of Fanny Burney a while ago. She was in
France from 1802-1815. When she got back to England, she saw a
plate with a picture of Nelson's head on it together with the word
"Trafalgar" and had to ask what the word meant, so complete had the
news blackout been in France.


Message 330946e300A-9862-570+5a.htm, number 127462, was posted on Sun Jan 1 at 09:30:00
in reply to 330946e300A-9862-535+5a.htm

Re^3: 9 literary New Year’s resolutions

Guest


Oops, I see that Don Seltzer described the passage I quoted elsewhere in this thread. Should have read the whole thing before posting, sorry.

My resolution? 1920x1200 again.


Message 47b879ac00A-9862-652+5a.htm, number 127463, was posted on Sun Jan 1 at 10:52:14
in reply to 330946e300A-9862-570+5a.htm

Re^4: 9 literary New Year’s resolutions

Don Seltzer


On Sun Jan 1, Guest wrote
-------------------------
>Oops, I see that Don Seltzer described the passage I quoted elsewhere in this thread. Should have read the whole thing before posting, sorry.

Not at all, it was good that you found the particular passage and posted it for all to read.

One other bit of historical trivia to add is that another member of the Thrale-Burney social set was Sophia Byron, the wife of Admiral Foul-weather Jack Byron.


Message 330946e300A-9862-863+5a.htm, number 127464, was posted on Sun Jan 1 at 14:23:30
in reply to 31bb321100A-9862-133+5a.htm

Re^2: Fanny and the 2 Hester Thrales

Guest


On Sun Jan 1, wombat wrote
--------------------------
> I've been getting acquainted with various people POB mentions in
> the canon - by chance, just because I've developed an interest in
> that period and am probably reading some of the sources POB would
> have. I'm surprised that Queenie is portrayed quite so generously
> in the canon. Here is Samuel Rogers, who knew everybody:
>
> The world was most unjust in blaming Mrs. Thrale for marrying
> Piozzi : he was a very handsome, gentlemanly and
> amiable person and made her a very good husband.
> In the evening he used to play to us most beauti-
> fully on the piano. Her daughters never would
> see her after that marriage ; and (poor woman)
> when she was at a very great age I have
> heard her say that quote " she would go down upon
> her knees to them, if they would only be reconciled
> to her."

I think you're right that POB showed Queeney rather favourably.

One thing I didn't realise was that Lord Keith and Queeney had a
daughter, the Honourable Georgina Henrietta Augusta Keith. She was
born in 1809 and lived until 1892. So Stephen was right with his
"Possibilissima". Sadly, Georgina, though she married twice, had no
children, so Queeney has no living descendents.


Message 50e5a913p13-9862-1177+5a.htm, number 127465, was posted on Sun Jan 1 at 19:37:52
in reply to 330946e300A-9862-863+5a.htm

Elphinstone [née Thrale], Hester Maria, Viscountess Keith . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Jan 1, Guest wrote
-------------------------
>I think you're right that POB showed Queeney rather favourably.

He deserves credit, as a man with the conservative attitudes of times, for appreciating her for what she was, an intellectual with a mind of her own denied any opportunity to use it. DNB has:

' . . was born on 17 September 1764  . . a protégée of Samuel Johnson,  . . (who), a friend of the family from 1765, called her ‘Queeney’, wrote childish rhymes for her, played horses with her, wrote to her, and directed her education. The death of her only surviving brother in 1776 made her a rich heiress. In 1778 Fanny Burney described her as ‘cold and reserved, though full of knowledge and intelligence’ . .  She retired to her father's Brighton house, where she saw no company, and studied Hebrew and mathematics, of which she became a considerable scholar . .

The unusual education bestowed on ‘Queeney’ had little beneficial effect on her temperament; her mother lamented that she was ‘reserved and shy with a considerable Share of Obstinacy, & I think a Heart void of all Affection for any Person in the World .  .

(She was) Determined to marry a lord . . On 10 January 1808, in London, she married Admiral George Keith Elphinstone, Baron Keith (1746–1823) . . on 12 December 1809, at the age of forty-five, . . she gave birth to her only child, a daughter, Georgiana Augusta Henrietta.

Lady Keith was one of the original patrons of Almack's . . In 1823 she was left a widow. Towards the end of her life, she retired from company and devoted herself to works of charity.  She died on 31 March 1857.'


Message 5deca71900A-9863-150-30.htm, number 127466, was posted on Mon Jan 2 at 02:30:26
Queenie, from below

Max


Is Admiral Keith any relation to the General/Lord Elphinstone featured so prominently in the Flashman books?

Message 330946e300A-9863-366+1e.htm, number 127467, was posted on Mon Jan 2 at 06:06:10
in reply to 5deca71900A-9863-150-30.htm

Re: Queenie, from below

Guest


On Mon Jan 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Is Admiral Keith any relation to the General/Lord Elphinstone featured so prominently in the Flashman books?

If it is this General Elphinstone;
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_George_Keith_Elphinstone
...he was Lord Keith's nephew.


Message 330946e300A-9863-523-30.htm, number 127468, was posted on Mon Jan 2 at 08:43:20
What does the number in the curly brackets mean?

Guest


I can see that the number in ordinary brackets () is the number of views a posting has received, but what is the number in curly {} brackets? It doesn't seem to be the number of follow-up posts or anything else I can think of...

Message 5deca71900A-9863-644+1e.htm, number 127469, was posted on Mon Jan 2 at 10:43:36
in reply to 330946e300A-9863-366+1e.htm

Re^2: Queenie, from below

Max



Thank you. Yes, that's him. The description of the Kabul disaster in Flashman is a landmark in fictional history.

Somewhere, sometime, a talented writer will introduce Jack, or more likely Stephen, to Harry Flashman.





On Mon Jan 2, Guest wrote




-------------------------
>On Mon Jan 2, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>Is Admiral Keith any relation to the General/Lord Elphinstone featured so prominently in the Flashman books?

>If it is this General Elphinstone;
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_George_Keith_Elphinstone
>...he was Lord Keith's nephew.


Message 5deca71900A-9863-645+1e.htm, number 127470, was posted on Mon Jan 2 at 10:44:49
in reply to 330946e300A-9863-523-30.htm

Re: What does the number in the curly brackets mean?

Max


Number of people that have viewed the thread as whole perhaps?


On Mon Jan 2, Guest wrote
-------------------------
>I can see that the number in ordinary brackets () is the number of views a posting has received, but what is the number in curly {} brackets? It doesn't seem to be the number of follow-up posts or anything else I can think of...

Message 330946e300A-9863-659+1e.htm, number 127471, was posted on Mon Jan 2 at 10:58:36
in reply to 5deca71900A-9863-645+1e.htm

Re^2: What does the number in the curly brackets mean?

Guest


Wouldn't the number then be the same as the one in the normal brackets for posts with no replies?

On Mon Jan 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Number of people that have viewed the thread as whole perhaps?
>
>
>On Mon Jan 2, Guest wrote
>-------------------------
>>I can see that the number in ordinary brackets () is the number of views a posting has received, but what is the number in curly {} brackets? It doesn't seem to be the number of follow-up posts or anything else I can think of...


Message 5deca71900A-9863-819+1e.htm, number 127472, was posted on Mon Jan 2 at 13:39:17
in reply to 330946e300A-9863-659+1e.htm

Re^3: What does the number in the curly brackets mean?

Max


If you go to a post and hit "digest" you get the thread on a single page and it adds one to the curly bracket number.



On Mon Jan 2, Guest wrote
-------------------------
>Wouldn't the number then be the same as the one in the normal brackets for posts with no replies?

>On Mon Jan 2, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>Number of people that have viewed the thread as whole perhaps?
>>
>>
>>On Mon Jan 2, Guest wrote
>>-------------------------
>>>I can see that the number in ordinary brackets () is the number of views a posting has received, but what is the number in curly {} brackets? It doesn't seem to be the number of follow-up posts or anything else I can think of...


Message 330946e300A-9863-990+1e.htm, number 127473, was posted on Mon Jan 2 at 16:30:25
in reply to 5deca71900A-9863-819+1e.htm

Re^4: What does the number in the curly brackets mean?

Guest


Oh, I'd never noticed that option before and misunderstood what you meant.  Mystery solved, thank you!

On Mon Jan 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>If you go to a post and hit "digest" you get the thread on a single page and it adds one to the curly bracket number.
>
>
>
>On Mon Jan 2, Guest wrote
>-------------------------
>>Wouldn't the number then be the same as the one in the normal brackets for posts with no replies?

>>On Mon Jan 2, Max wrote
>>-----------------------
>>>Number of people that have viewed the thread as whole perhaps?
>>>
>>>
>>>On Mon Jan 2, Guest wrote
>>>-------------------------
>>>>I can see that the number in ordinary brackets () is the number of views a posting has received, but what is the number in curly {} brackets? It doesn't seem to be the number of follow-up posts or anything else I can think of...


Message 5deca71900A-9863-1010+1e.htm, number 127474, was posted on Mon Jan 2 at 16:50:07
in reply to 330946e300A-9863-990+1e.htm

Re^5: What does the number in the curly brackets mean?

Max



De nada

On Mon Jan 2, Guest wrote
-------------------------
>Oh, I'd never noticed that option before and misunderstood what you meant.  Mystery solved, thank you!

>On Mon Jan 2, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>If you go to a post and hit "digest" you get the thread on a single page and it adds one to the curly bracket number.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Mon Jan 2, Guest wrote
>>-------------------------
>>>Wouldn't the number then be the same as the one in the normal brackets for posts with no replies?

>>>On Mon Jan 2, Max wrote
>>>-----------------------
>>>>Number of people that have viewed the thread as whole perhaps?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Mon Jan 2, Guest wrote
>>>>-------------------------
>>>>>I can see that the number in ordinary brackets () is the number of views a posting has received, but what is the number in curly {} brackets? It doesn't seem to be the number of follow-up posts or anything else I can think of...


Message cedfbdfannW-9864-725+4d.htm, number 127475, was posted on Tue Jan 3 at 12:05:26
in reply to 041077a400A-9851-1075-90.htm

Re: Tiger cruise

Tumblehome
benbarnes@sympatico.ca


How was it?  Or are you on board as we speak?  It does sound like a great outing.

Ben


On Tue Dec 20, CJP wrote
------------------------
>Once again I'm taking advantage of an opportunity for a day at sea on the USS Carl Vinson, a Nimitz-class carrier based in San Diego in two weeks.  This time I'm taking my daughter who's heard my stories and wants to see the activity first-hand.  The previous adventures have included flight deck ops with Super Hornets doing touch & goes, supersonic low altitude fly-bys, live ordnance drops on floating targets, and gunnery exercises with the Mk38s and M2s.  
>Friends and family are given virtual free-run of the ship (except for sensitive engineering areas) and my iPhone-based health monitor app showed 7.8 miles of walking and 28 stories of climbing - it is a huge vessel.  One sailor I met two years ago told me a story about his assignment in the Arabian Sea that involved clearing out the 'forward ice cream locker' (I didn't know there was an 'aft ice cream locker' let alone one forward.  This was to make way for the remains of UBL while they figured out the correct Muslim ritual for burial at sea - a unique bit of naval history.  
>This is a long way from 'manger scuppers' and setting the fore topgallants, but there is little to match by way of standing on the edge of the flight deck while making turns for 30 knots into a 20 knot headwind -  a veritable hurricane over the deck.  I'm as excited as a teenager - a rare status for this old bag of bones.  I shudder every time I think of the short and stacked bunks of the crewmen and the showers shared by forty four decks down.  
>Praying for good weather and no Russian or Chinese submarines lurking off SoCal...
>CJP


Message 50e5a913p13-9864-766+1d.htm, number 127476, was posted on Tue Jan 3 at 12:46:58
in reply to 5deca71900A-9863-644+1e.htm

The Kabul disaster

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Jan 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>>Thank you. Yes, that's him. The description of the Kabul disaster in Flashman is a landmark in fictional history.

A historian's account:

‘Elphinstone, William George Keith (1782–1842), army officer, was . . the elder brother of Admiral Lord Keith . .

In 1839 he was appointed to command the Benares division of the Bengal army; although he was already a sick man he went out to India to take up his command. From a comfortable situation in Bengal, he was uprooted by the governor-general, Lord Auckland, to . .  command . . the British troops (in) Kabul. Despite his protest that he was unfit physically for such an active command, he was overruled; suffering from gout, he had to make most of the journey from Calcutta to Kabul in a palanquin.‘ . . When Elphinstone arrived in Kabul the situation seemed calm enough for wives and children to come from India to Kabul, where the garrison was enjoying as normal a peacetime existence as in an Indian cantonment.

However (the British) had misjudged the political situation. The Afghan chiefs were opposed to Shah Shuja and resented the British occupation. Even Elphinstone, who reached Kabul exhausted, mentally and physically, queried the defensibility of the British cantonment at Sherpur, outside Kabul, but any attempt at improvement was turned down on the grounds of expense.

‘Unfit for it, done up body and mind’ is how Elphinstone described himself . .  in October 1841. He intended to ask for relief on medical grounds. Incapable through pain and debility of making up his mind, he held repeated conferences, soliciting the opinion of even the most junior of those attending, but never reaching a conclusion. He was little helped to do so by his second in command, Brigadier John Shelton of the 44th foot, who openly despised him.

Elphinstone was utterly unfitted to cope with the increasingly grave situation following the Kabul insurrection of 2 November and the assassination of Sir William Macnaghten by Akbar Khan, a son of Dost Muhammad, on 23 December 1841. The Afghans closed communication with Kabul and besieged the cantonment. Against his better judgement Major Eldred Pottinger, . . as the senior remaining political officer, was ordered to negotiate with Akbar Khan for the safe return of the Kabul garrison to India at the height of the Afghan winter. The terms were humiliating, the Afghan guarantees worthless, and subsequently almost the entire garrison was destroyed in the passes between 6 and 13 January 1842.

The remnants of an army, Jellalabad (sic), January 13, 1842 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remnants_of_an_Army
Some nineteen officers and ten wives with their children were taken into Afghan captivity, some as hostages, Elphinstone among them. He was wounded at Jagdalak during the retreat on 12 January. The prisoners were mostly not treated badly, but Elphinstone, racked with dysentery, had lost the will to live. He died unmarried, on the night of 23 April . . Colin Mackenzie and other Anglo-Afghan war survivors later paid tribute to his personal qualities: he was well-meaning and kindly—though inadequate for command.

In the immediate aftermath of the Afghanistan disaster Elphinstone was much blamed, but the true blame lay with Lord Auckland . . for undertaking the invasion of Afghanistan and for choosing a sick, disabled, and prematurely aged general, who had not served in battle since Waterloo, to command in Kabul.’

H. M. Stephens, rev. James Lunt

Sources   . . V. Eyre, The military operations at Cabul, which ended in the retreat and destruction of the British army, January 1842 (1843); repr. with an introduction by J. Lunt as Journal of an Afghanistan prisoner (1976) . .

(DNB)


Message 041077a400A-9864-1185+4d.htm, number 127477, was posted on Tue Jan 3 at 19:45:06
in reply to cedfbdfannW-9864-725+4d.htm

Re^2: Tiger cruise

CJP



It was an excellent day!  The weather cooperated, and a full air show was conducted for the benefit of the guests and crew.  An F/A-18F did a low level supersonic pass about 500' over the ship, and the KABOOM got everyone's pulse rate up a couple of notches, to be sure.  As well as a series of touch & goes, they surprised me by performing a full trap landing (there were hundreds of civilians on the flight deck!) and then turned the bird around and did a catapult shot right in front of our noses.  My daughter and I were well-positioned and the wing tip of the jets passed about 35' away from us.  Quite the sound show with the afterburners roaring.  She sat in the Air Boss chair up in the bird cage on the island and got to play with the 'Ouija Board' in Flight Deck Control.
One of the high points was our wandering into the fo'csle, a large space right under the end of the flight deck.  The anchor chains were enormous as is the gear that goes with it.  There were large ports in the front that allowed one to look straight down about 40' at the bow wave beings created by the 100,000-ton leviathan making turns for 25 kts - truly impressive.  At the end of the day, I was happy to stretch out in my own bed - considerably larger than the berthing area bunks that the thousands of crew and airmen have to crawl into.  Whatever they get paid, it ain't enough!

>How was it?  Or are you on board as we speak?  It does sound like a great outing.

>Ben
>
>
>On Tue Dec 20, CJP wrote
>------------------------
>>Once again I'm taking advantage of an opportunity for a day at sea on the USS Carl Vinson, a Nimitz-class carrier based in San Diego in two weeks.  This time I'm taking my daughter who's heard my stories and wants to see the activity first-hand.  The previous adventures have included flight deck ops with Super Hornets doing touch & goes, supersonic low altitude fly-bys, live ordnance drops on floating targets, and gunnery exercises with the Mk38s and M2s.  
>>Friends and family are given virtual free-run of the ship (except for sensitive engineering areas) and my iPhone-based health monitor app showed 7.8 miles of walking and 28 stories of climbing - it is a huge vessel.  One sailor I met two years ago told me a story about his assignment in the Arabian Sea that involved clearing out the 'forward ice cream locker' (I didn't know there was an 'aft ice cream locker' let alone one forward.  This was to make way for the remains of UBL while they figured out the correct Muslim ritual for burial at sea - a unique bit of naval history.  
>>This is a long way from 'manger scuppers' and setting the fore topgallants, but there is little to match by way of standing on the edge of the flight deck while making turns for 30 knots into a 20 knot headwind -  a veritable hurricane over the deck.  I'm as excited as a teenager - a rare status for this old bag of bones.  I shudder every time I think of the short and stacked bunks of the crewmen and the showers shared by forty four decks down.  
>>Praying for good weather and no Russian or Chinese submarines lurking off SoCal...
>>CJP


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9865-762+49.htm, number 127478, was posted on Wed Jan 4 at 12:48:15
in reply to 5deca71900A-9862-508+4c.htm

Re^2: The Long Ships, the Black Rose

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Happy new year to you, Max.  "The Black Rose" brings to mind a novel they made us read in high-school English classes; Nathaniel Hawthorne, right?  Why couldn't they ever find good novels to make us read?  Surely they wanted to instill in us a love of literature, but all the novels they picked were depressing: The Grapes of Wrath, A Separate Peace, The Red Badge of Courage, plenty of others mercifully forgotten.  I at least was spared Catcher in the Rye, and I actually liked The Old Man of the Sea.  Mostly, though, I think I like reading in spite of high-school lit, not because of it.

Mentally I have The Black Rose in that category, but I remember nothing about it except an image of some old, stern house where nothing good happened.  But since you ask about it, I have to think I might be confused in my old age.  Then, too, it suddenly comes to me that there's a The Black Rose by Thomas Costain, whom I read quite a bit of in high school; historical novels, mostly, although just now I have by my bed Thomas Costain's piece of a history of Canada.  (They split it up by time and divvied it out to various writers, and Costain got the period starting in the 1600s up to I'm-not-sure-when-yet.)  Let's see, Costain's The Black Rose involved two men who traveled around quite a bit (like many of his novels); one of them was a black Irishman with a name of one or maybe two syllables, and his friend was ... something else, I forget.  I think they ended up being present at the signing of the Magna Carta.  That's as far as I can get, and that memory, too, may be confused.

Am I close?  Time to read it again, maybe?

On Sun Jan 1, Max wrote
-----------------------
>More of a curiosity. The casting is just bizarre. The book is much better.

>Bob, did you read or see "The Black Rose"? Similar material to the long ships but better in both genres.

>On Thu Dec 22, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>By the way, I read The Long Ships in my twenties and never forgot it, but I didn't remember that it had been made into a movie.  Is it any good?

>>On Sat Dec 17, Scourge's Housemate wrote
>>----------------------------------------
>>>Sub zero outside so it's movie day

>>>I tuned into 'The Long Ships' about a third of the way along. In order to get the first part of the story I googled and found my way, via the windings of the rabbit hole, to this site:

>>>www.vernonjohns.org/snuffy1186/movies.html

>>>There are so many films on the 'net for free. The Way Back Machine, Internet Archive and You Tube also


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9865-770+49.htm, number 127478, was edited on Wed Jan 4 at 12:50:35
and replaces message 4747fb3e8HW-9865-762+49.htm

Re^2: The Long Ships, the Black Rose

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Happy new year to you, Max.  "The Black Rose" brings to mind a novel they made us read in high-school English classes; Nathaniel Hawthorne, right?  Why couldn't they ever find good novels to make us read?  Surely they wanted to instill in us a love of literature, but all the novels they picked were depressing: The Grapes of Wrath, A Separate Peace, The Red Badge of Courage, plenty of others mercifully forgotten.  I at least was spared Catcher in the Rye, and I actually liked The Old Man of the Sea.  Mostly, though, I think I like reading in spite of high-school lit, not because of it.

Mentally I have The Black Rose in that category, but I remember nothing about it except an image of some old, stern house where nothing good happened.  But since you ask about it, I have to think I might be confused in my old age.  Then, too, it suddenly comes to me that there's a The Black Rose by Thomas Costain, whom I read quite a bit of in high school; historical novels, mostly, although just now I have by my bed Thomas Costain's piece of a history of Canada.  (They split it up by time and divvied it out to various writers, and Costain got the period starting in the 1600s up to I'm-not-sure-when-yet.)  Let's see, Costain's The Black Rose involved two men who traveled around quite a bit (like many of his novels); one of them was a black Irishman with a name of one or maybe two syllables, and his friend was ... something else, I forget.  I think they ended up being present at the signing of the Magna Carta.  That's as far as I can get, and that memory, too, may be confused.

Am I close?  Time to read it again, maybe?

[15 min later:] Nathaniel Hawthorne was The Scarlet Letter, and I think I'm confusing the Costain novel with another by the same author; it says here the companion in The Black Rose was a Saxon, not Irish.  But I read a lot of Costain novels back then.  Time to look a few of them up again, maybe.

On Sun Jan 1, Max wrote
-----------------------
>More of a curiosity. The casting is just bizarre. The book is much better.

>Bob, did you read or see "The Black Rose"? Similar material to the long ships but better in both genres.

>On Thu Dec 22, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>By the way, I read The Long Ships in my twenties and never forgot it, but I didn't remember that it had been made into a movie.  Is it any good?

>>On Sat Dec 17, Scourge's Housemate wrote
>>----------------------------------------
>>>Sub zero outside so it's movie day

>>>I tuned into 'The Long Ships' about a third of the way along. In order to get the first part of the story I googled and found my way, via the windings of the rabbit hole, to this site:

>>>www.vernonjohns.org/snuffy1186/movies.html

>>>There are so many films on the 'net for free. The Way Back Machine, Internet Archive and You Tube also

[ This message was edited on Wed Jan 4 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9866-667-90.htm, number 127479, was posted on Thu Jan 5 at 11:07:30
What to read on the Vendee Globe Round the world race

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘I see that Alex Thomson, who is sailing solo around the world in the Vendée Globe race, has taken all of Bernard Cornwell’s Sharpe novels on his Kindle. What other books would readers pack for the three-month, 26,000-mile race? - Peter Shelton, Leeds’
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/dec/14/vendee-globe-books-solo-voyage
www.vendeeglobe.org/en/skippers/60/alex-thomson
Chart: tracking2016.vendeeglobe.org/gv5ip0/

BambooBar: Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series. The nautical theme is purely coincidental; they would keep you happy whatever activity you were engaged in.

Chrístõ: Patrick O'Brian's fine literary style would send a bone-weary solo sailor to sleep before they’d read a single paragraph. Much better would be the modern James Bond pastiches by Ian Fleming, Kingsley Amis, Christopher Wood, John Gardner, Raymond Benson, Sebastian Faulks, Jeffery Deaver, William Boyd, Anthony Horowitz, Charlie Higson, Steve Cole, etc. Take your pick!

What would forumites take?


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9866-717+5a.htm, number 127480, was posted on Thu Jan 5 at 11:57:50
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9866-667-90.htm

How much to read on the Vendee Globe round-the-world race

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Three months?  How many Sharpes did Cornwall write?  Let's say this race gives you about three hours a day of leisure for reading (I'm guessing a lot more), including as "leisure" sitting by the tiller keeping an eye out.  Even if you're a slow reader that's still more than a volume a week.  I'd want a lot more than one series to keep me happy for three months.

I'd also want more variety.  No matter how much I like steak, I can get tired of it meal after meal; pretty soon I'm in the mood for chicken, or a Jersey-Mike's sub, or broccoli.  So I'd take a variety of authors: John Ringo, James H Schmitz, Dick Francis, Lee Child (the patronizing murmurs I hear in the background notwithstanding), Alistair MacLean, Albert Payson Terhune, Rudyard Kipling, Isaac Asimov, C S Lewis ...  How to pick?  No doubt y'all have your own favorites; these are just the ones that occur to me immediately.

On Thu Jan 5, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>‘I see that Alex Thomson, who is sailing solo around the world in the Vendée Globe race, has taken all of Bernard Cornwell’s Sharpe novels on his Kindle. What other books would readers pack for the three-month, 26,000-mile race? - Peter Shelton, Leeds’
>www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/dec/14/vendee-globe-books-solo-voyage
>www.vendeeglobe.org/en/skippers/60/alex-thomson
>Chart: tracking2016.vendeeglobe.org/gv5ip0/

>BambooBar: Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series. The nautical theme is purely coincidental; they would keep you happy whatever activity you were engaged in.

>Chrístõ: Patrick O'Brian's fine literary style would send a bone-weary solo sailor to sleep before they’d read a single paragraph. Much better would be the modern James Bond pastiches by Ian Fleming, Kingsley Amis, Christopher Wood, John Gardner, Raymond Benson, Sebastian Faulks, Jeffery Deaver, William Boyd, Anthony Horowitz, Charlie Higson, Steve Cole, etc. Take your pick!

>What would forumites take?


Message 602421f200A-9866-733+5a.htm, number 127481, was posted on Thu Jan 5 at 12:13:26
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9866-667-90.htm

Re: What to read on the Vendee Globe Round the world race

Beached


Am currently reading Christopher Buckley, I appreciate his humor.



On Thu Jan 5, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>‘I see that Alex Thomson, who is sailing solo around the world in the Vendée Globe race, has taken all of Bernard Cornwell’s Sharpe novels on his Kindle. What other books would readers pack for the three-month, 26,000-mile race? - Peter Shelton, Leeds’
>www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/dec/14/vendee-globe-books-solo-voyage
>www.vendeeglobe.org/en/skippers/60/alex-thomson
>Chart: tracking2016.vendeeglobe.org/gv5ip0/

>BambooBar: Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series. The nautical theme is purely coincidental; they would keep you happy whatever activity you were engaged in.

>Chrístõ: Patrick O'Brian's fine literary style would send a bone-weary solo sailor to sleep before they’d read a single paragraph. Much better would be the modern James Bond pastiches by Ian Fleming, Kingsley Amis, Christopher Wood, John Gardner, Raymond Benson, Sebastian Faulks, Jeffery Deaver, William Boyd, Anthony Horowitz, Charlie Higson, Steve Cole, etc. Take your pick!

>What would forumites take?

>


Message 041077a400A-9866-998+5a.htm, number 127482, was posted on Thu Jan 5 at 16:38:36
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9866-717+5a.htm

Re: How much to read on the Vendee Globe round-the-world race

CJP


I was once privileged to read a complete set of Alexandre Dumas that was translated between 1898 and 1902.  They read much, much better than a translation from the 1950's that I came across years later.  It was much like poetry, and I read the collection through thrice - a feat of endurance.  There are many fine novels in the collection beyond the well-know "Musketeers" and "Monte Cristo."  I learned much about French history and geography from the readings and am ashamed to admit that I welled up at the death of Porthos in the Musketeer series.  The "Black Tulip" also comes to mind as being among the best. It would take most of the three months to get through, to be sure, but you'd need a couple of cases of claret as digestive.

On Thu Jan 5, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Three months?  How many Sharpes did Cornwall write?  Let's say this race gives you about three hours a day of leisure for reading (I'm guessing a lot more), including as "leisure" sitting by the tiller keeping an eye out.  Even if you're a slow reader that's still more than a volume a week.  I'd want a lot more than one series to keep me happy for three months.

>I'd also want more variety.  No matter how much I like steak, I can get tired of it meal after meal; pretty soon I'm in the mood for chicken, or a Jersey-Mike's sub, or broccoli.  So I'd take a variety of authors: John Ringo, James H Schmitz, Dick Francis, Lee Child (the patronizing murmurs I hear in the background notwithstanding), Alistair MacLean, Albert Payson Terhune, Rudyard Kipling, Isaac Asimov, C S Lewis ...  How to pick?  No doubt y'all have your own favorites; these are just the ones that occur to me immediately.

>On Thu Jan 5, Chrístõ wrote
>---------------------------
>>‘I see that Alex Thomson, who is sailing solo around the world in the Vendée Globe race, has taken all of Bernard Cornwell’s Sharpe novels on his Kindle. What other books would readers pack for the three-month, 26,000-mile race? - Peter Shelton, Leeds’
>>www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/dec/14/vendee-globe-books-solo-voyage
>>www.vendeeglobe.org/en/skippers/60/alex-thomson
>>Chart: tracking2016.vendeeglobe.org/gv5ip0/

>>BambooBar: Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series. The nautical theme is purely coincidental; they would keep you happy whatever activity you were engaged in.

>>Chrístõ: Patrick O'Brian's fine literary style would send a bone-weary solo sailor to sleep before they’d read a single paragraph. Much better would be the modern James Bond pastiches by Ian Fleming, Kingsley Amis, Christopher Wood, John Gardner, Raymond Benson, Sebastian Faulks, Jeffery Deaver, William Boyd, Anthony Horowitz, Charlie Higson, Steve Cole, etc. Take your pick!

>>What would forumites take?


Message 4c729d1400A-9866-1260+5a.htm, number 127483, was posted on Thu Jan 5 at 21:00:24
in reply to 602421f200A-9866-733+5a.htm

Re^2: What to read on the Vendee Globe Round the world race

Steve Sheridan


Apart from O'Brian, I would pack the Flashman/McAuslan series of G. M. Fraser, Robertson Davies's trilogies, and perhaps the Lymond/Niccolo novels of Dorothy Dunnett.

Steve Sheridan


Message 46d308c100A-9866-1382+5a.htm, number 127484, was posted on Thu Jan 5 at 23:02:25
in reply to 4c729d1400A-9866-1260+5a.htm

Re^3: What not to read on the Vendee Globe Round the world race

Mac


Life of Pi. Robinson Caruso. Sinking the Bismark.



n Thu Jan 5, Steve Sheridan wrote
----------------------------------
>Apart from O'Brian, I would pack the Flashman/McAuslan series of G. M. Fraser, Robertson Davies's trilogies, and perhaps the Lymond/Niccolo novels of Dorothy Dunnett.

>Steve Sheridan


Message 31bb0c9000A-9867-206+59.htm, number 127485, was posted on Fri Jan 6 at 03:26:21
in reply to 46d308c100A-9866-1382+5a.htm

Re^4: What to read on the Vendee Globe Round the world race

wombat


I like the P. G. Wodehouse suggestion. If the sailor ever gets a time to relax, Simon Winchester has written two fairly recent books which are dense with a huge variety of interesting information about the two biggest oceans - "Atlantic" and "Pacific" - and he's an entertaining writer.

And a "Teach Yourself to Play [some relatively small, water-proof musical instrument]" as well as some music to have a go at. Old Bach would be a bit of a stretch.


Message aeda8fdb00A-9867-722+59.htm, number 127486, was posted on Fri Jan 6 at 12:01:49
in reply to 31bb0c9000A-9867-206+59.htm

"Business Ethics in the Time of Twitter" -Donald J. Drumpf

Whore'son Beast


Very short, unmemorable, useful when the toilet paper runs out.

+1 for Simon Winchester, especially "Krakatoa: The Day the World Exploded...". A low rumble was heard in the Mauritius.


Message 46d333d600A-9868-818-07.htm, number 127487, was posted on Sat Jan 7 at 13:37:45
The Black Rose - from below

Mac


Bob, my Black Rose was the trek of 2 Saxon and Norman refugees thru Europe to China. It included an extended stay in Italy where ship building was described in detail.
I don't recall the signing of the Magna Carta but Francis Bacon is certainly in there as is one of the Great Khans. Probably Kubla.
I read this book a half century ago.


Message 46d1c30a00A-9871-550-30.htm, number 127488, was posted on Tue Jan 10 at 09:10:04
Aubra (not Aubrey)

Max


I thought I would send you a song.

I found this guy by accident. I think he is in his 90s. Unknown. Lives in Waco, Texas. His son set up a mini-studio in his bedroom. The back ground music is well known stuff. He plays along with it. I understand that his sole appearances are once a month at a local small club in Waco. If you want to listen to another I'd suggest Autumn in New York.

For reasons I cannot explain, the idea that a guy this talented lived a long life of obscurity and wound up sitting around in his boxer shorts playing for himself until the internet came along just tickles the hell out of me.


https://youtu.be/BqD9NhRbD8w


Message 46d1c30a00A-9871-551+1e.htm, number 127489, was posted on Tue Jan 10 at 09:10:47
in reply to 46d1c30a00A-9871-550-30.htm

Re: Aubra (not Aubrey)

Max



youtu.be/BqD9NhRbD8w

Message 041077a400A-9871-737+1e.htm, number 127490, was posted on Tue Jan 10 at 12:16:51
in reply to 46d1c30a00A-9871-551+1e.htm

Dumbfounded...

CJP


Jeeeezus, Max - that man is absolutely amazing!  There's a whole treasure trove of his music out there in the cybersphere.  

On Tue Jan 10, Max wrote
------------------------
>>youtu.be/BqD9NhRbD8w


Message 46d1c30a00A-9872-704+1d.htm, number 127491, was posted on Wed Jan 11 at 11:43:53
in reply to 041077a400A-9871-737+1e.htm

Re: Dumbfounded...

Max



Amazing innit'. Guy sounds like Dexter Gordon and he's been mowing the lawn in Waco for 90 years.


On Tue Jan 10, CJP wrote
------------------------
>Jeeeezus, Max - that man is absolutely amazing!  There's a whole treasure trove of his music out there in the cybersphere.  

>On Tue Jan 10, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>>youtu.be/BqD9NhRbD8w


Message 6ca159be00A-9872-1059-07.htm, number 127492, was posted on Wed Jan 11 at 17:38:37
"Neither the incursions of Moor, the Spaniards nor the English, nor cannon nor bomb of either have been able to dislodge them."

Whoreson Beast


aeon.co/videos/clash-of-cousins-monkeys-and-humans-wage-a-droll-turf-war-at-the-rock-of-gibraltar

Lord Nelson makes an appearance.


Message 4ca756ac8YV-9873-716+06.htm, number 127493, was posted on Thu Jan 12 at 11:56:33
in reply to 6ca159be00A-9872-1059-07.htm

Monkeys in exile....

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


My first reaction to hearing that they were sending monkeys to Scotland was 'What has Scotland done to deserve THAT?', but this is just sad to watch.  Poor monkeys.




On Wed Jan 11, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------


Message 6b4d556dwd5-9873-947+06.htm, number 127494, was posted on Thu Jan 12 at 15:46:59
in reply to 4ca756ac8YV-9873-716+06.htm

Re: Monkeys in exile....

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


On Thu Jan 12, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>My first reaction to hearing that they were sending monkeys to Scotland was 'What has Scotland done to deserve THAT?

Well...the conditions aboard the transport ship have improved!


Tom
>


Message 46d1c70000A-9873-990+06.htm, number 127495, was posted on Thu Jan 12 at 16:29:37
in reply to 6b4d556dwd5-9873-947+06.htm

Re^2: Operation Snatch!

Max


the British control of Gilbralter must soon be over!

youtu.be/G-9hsHfuYlA




Message 6242ba3d00A-9874-600+05.htm, number 127496, was posted on Fri Jan 13 at 10:00:18
in reply to 46d1c70000A-9873-990+06.htm

Re^3: Operation Snatch!

YA


We are in an era where any double entendre will be mistaken for some new white house initiative. Sad.


Oh it looks like one of your peeps(if I reckon correctly) figures prominently in Letterkenny, .
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnX_xL35bL4

On Thu Jan 12, Max wrote
------------------------
>
>
>
>
>


Message 4588233100A-9875-513-07.htm, number 127497, was posted on Sat Jan 14 at 08:32:36
Knighthood of Yachting

Whoreson Beast


www.nbcnews.com/news/world/deaf-sailor-gavin-reid-honored-daring-rescue-during-yacht-race-n706061

Message 46d1c30a00A-9875-897-30.htm, number 127498, was posted on Sat Jan 14 at 14:57:12
Taboo

Max


Just saw the first episode of a Brit TV series called "Taboo".

I'm hooked. Thomas Hardy (was there ever another actor that could convincingly read a line like "send 2 men after me and I'll send you back a bag with 12 testicles innit'"). Takes place in 1814. He has inherited a shipping company. He is half Native American. The struggle seems to be over Vancouver Island. Johnathon Pryce is the East India Company villain.

I am so in.


Message 50e5a913p13-9876-464+1d.htm, number 127499, was posted on Sun Jan 15 at 07:44:10
in reply to 46d1c30a00A-9875-897-30.htm

Trailer

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Jan 14, Max wrote
------------------------
>Just saw the first episode of a Brit TV series called "Taboo".

Forumite will recall the vital part the actual Nootka Sound incident in 1790 played in the early career of Lt. Jack Aubrey:

" . . On orders from Spain, Martinez evacuated Nootka Sound by the end of October 1789, but it was reoccupied by a larger Spanish fleet in early 1790. The British people responded with outcry, and both the British and Spanish governments sent fleets of warships in a show of force, though they never met in battle.

As the year went on Spain’s ally France decided it couldn’t aid them in the conflict, and when the Dutch Republic provided naval support to the British, Spain decided to negotiate instead of engage in a risky war.

Subsequently, the first Nootka Convention was signed in October 1790, eventually letting both nations trade there . . '

www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-01-14/taboo-everything-you-need-to-know-about-nootka-sound

I am recording the series but haven't seen any of it - glad to know that Max likes it.


Message 50e5a913p13-9876-474+1d.htm, number 127499, was edited on Sun Jan 15 at 07:54:34
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9876-464+1d.htm

Trailer

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Jan 14, Max wrote
------------------------
>Just saw the first episode of a Brit TV series called "Taboo".

Forumites will recall the vital part the actual Nootka Sound incident in 1790 played in the early career of Lt. Jack Aubrey:

" . . On orders from Spain, Martinez evacuated Nootka Sound by the end of October 1789, but it was reoccupied by a larger Spanish fleet in early 1790. The British people responded with outcry, and both the British and Spanish governments sent fleets of warships in a show of force, though they never met in battle.

As the year went on Spain’s ally France decided it couldn’t aid them in the conflict, and when the Dutch Republic provided naval support to the British, Spain decided to negotiate instead of engage in a risky war.

Subsequently, the first Nootka Convention was signed in October 1790, eventually letting both nations trade there . . '

www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-01-14/taboo-everything-you-need-to-know-about-nootka-sound

I am recording the series but haven't seen any of it - glad to know that Max likes it.

The Guardian has: www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/taboo-episodes

[ This message was edited on Sun Jan 15 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9877-349+1c.htm, number 127500, was posted on Mon Jan 16 at 05:48:48
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9876-474+1d.htm

'So kind of Dickens . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . meets Conrad meets A Fistful of Dollars meets Roots meets Sixth Sense meets Peaky Blinders . . , if you were pitching it . . '

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jan/16/taboo-review-tom-hardy-swagger-regency-london


Message 46d1c70000A-9877-1100+1c.htm, number 127501, was posted on Mon Jan 16 at 18:20:33
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9877-349+1c.htm

Bill Sykes

Max


Interestingly the paper references Dickens. Hardy's performance at times appears to channel Oliver Reed's version of Bill Sykes.




n Mon Jan 16, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . meets Conrad meets A Fistful of Dollars meets Roots meets Sixth Sense meets Peaky Blinders . . , if you were pitching it . . '
>

>www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jan/16/taboo-review-tom-hardy-swagger-regency-london


Message 6bd5c1a400A-9879-807-07.htm, number 127502, was posted on Wed Jan 18 at 13:27:17
Did You Know?

Lee Shore


I can not attest to the validity of these, but they sound right. In particular check out the last one.

In George Washington's days, there were no cameras. One's image was either sculpted or painted. Some paintings of George Washington showed him standing behind a desk with one arm behind his back while others showed both legs and both arms. Prices charged by painters were not based on how many people were to be painted, but by how many limbs were to be painted. Arms and legs are "limbs", therefore painting them would cost the buyer more. Hence the expression.
"Okay, but it'll cost you an arm and a leg".

****************************** ****************************** ***

As incredible as it sounds, men and women took baths only twice a year! (May and October) Women kept their hair covered, while men shaved their heads (because of lice and bugs) and wore wigs. Wealthy men could afford good wigs made from wool. The wigs couldn't be washed, so to clean them they could carve out a loaf of bread, put the wig in the shell, and bake it for 30 minutes. The heat would make the wig big and fluffy, hence the term "big wig". Today we often use the term "here comes the Big Wig" because someone  appears to be or is powerful and wealthy.

****************************** ****************************** ***

In the late 1700s, many houses consisted of a large room with only one
chair. Commonly, a long wide board was folded down from the wall and used for dining. The "head of the household" always sat in the chair while everyone else ate sitting on the floor. Once in a while, a guest (who was almost always a man) would be invited to sit in this chair during a meal .To sit in the chair meant you were important and in charge. Sitting in the chair, one was called the "chair man". Today in business we use the expression or title "Chairman or Chairman of the Board".

****************************** ****************************** ***

Needless to say, personal hygiene left much room for improvement. As a result, many women and men had developed acne scars by adulthood. The women would spread bee's wax over their facial skin to smooth out their complexions. When they were speaking to each other, if a woman began to stare at another woman's face she was told "mind your own bee's wax." Should the woman smile, the wax would crack, hence the term "crack a smile". Also, when they sat too close to the fire, the wax would melt and therefore the expression "losing face".

****************************** ****************************** ***

Ladies wore corsets which would lace up in the front. A tightly tied lace was worn by a proper and dignified lady as in "straight laced."

****************************** ******************************

Common entertainment included playing cards. However, there was a tax! levied when purchasing playing cards but only applicable to the "ace of Spades". To avoid paying the tax, people would purchase 51 cards instead. Yet, since most games require 52 cards, these people were thought to be stupid or dumb because they weren't "playing with a full deck."

****************************** ****************************** ***

Early politicians required feedback from the public to determine what was considered important to the people. Since there were no telephones, TV's or radios, the politicians sent their assistants to local taverns, pubs, and bars who were told to "go sip some ale" and listen to people's conversations and political concerns. Many assistants were dispatched at different times. "You go sip here" and "You go sip there". The two words "go sip" were eventually combined when referring to the local opinion and, thus we have the term "gossip".

****************************** ****************************** ***

At local tavern! s, pubs, and bars, people drank from pint and
quart-sized containers. A bar maid's job was to keep an eye on the customers and keep the drinks coming. She had to pay close attention and remember who was drinking in "pints" and who was drinking in "quarts", hence the term "minding  your "P's and Q's".

****************************** ******************************

One more: bet you didn't know this!!!!
In the heyday of sailing ships, all war ships and many freighters carried iron cannons. Those cannons fired round iron cannon balls. It was necessary to keep a good supply near the cannon, but how to prevent them from rolling about the deck? The best storage method devised was a square based pyramid with one ball on top, resting on four resting on nine, which rested on sixteen. Thus, a
supply of 30 cannon balls could be stacked in a small area right next to
the cannon. There was only one problem...how to prevent the bottom layer from sliding or rolling from under the others. The solution was a metal plate called a "Monkey" with 16 round indentations. But, if this plate were made of iron, the iron balls would quickly rust to it. The solution to the rusting problem was to make "Brass Monkeys." Few landlubbers realize that brass contracts much more and much faster than iron when chilled.

Consequently, when the temperature dropped too far, the brass indentations would shrink so much that the iron cannon balls would come right off the monkey. Thus, it was quite literally, "Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey". (And all this time, you thought that was an improper expression, didn't you?)


Message 50e5a913p13-9879-818-90.htm, number 127503, was posted on Wed Jan 18 at 13:38:40
How to deal with mutiny

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



‘ . . On 23 June 1797 Jervis was created Earl of St Vincent, with a life annuity of £3,000. The title was chosen by the King, despite Jervis's concern that it might appear arrogant to adopt the name of his victory. However, he had more important matters to attend to, for the after-effects of the 1797 Spithead and Nore mutinies had reached the Mediterranean fleet. Here the political and social strains of war met the immovable rock of Earl St Vincent's discipline.

He stepped up inspections by officers, segregated the Royal Marines from the seamen, banned the use of the Irish language and kept his jaundiced, un sleeping eye on every new ship that arrived. When two men were convicted of mutiny one Saturday, he had them hung (sic) the next morning, despite one admiral protesting that he was profaning the Sabbath; St Vincent had him recalled. When the men of HMS Marlborough refused to hang a mutineer, St Vincent sent armed boats to surround the ship and prepare to fire; the Marl­borough's men hauled their shipmate up to meet his maker at the end of the yard arm.

The ferocity of Jervis's discipline was carefully calculated to meet the demands of the moment: Britain was facing an ideological as well as a military threat, and those who spread sub­version and indiscipline were a fundamental threat to the state. Even Nelson, who took a far more modern view of his men, backed the admiral on this occasion . . ‘

Admirals: The naval commanders who made Britain great: Andrew Lambert; Faber 2008, p 193.
www.amazon.com/Admirals-Andrew-D-Lambert/dp/057123156X


Message 50e5a913p13-9879-833+07.htm, number 127504, was posted on Wed Jan 18 at 13:53:39
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-9879-807-07.htm

' . . shaking like a monkey in frosty weather.'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Jan 18, Lee Shore wrote
------------------------------
. . In particular check out the last one:

. . There was only one problem...how to prevent the bottom layer from sliding or rolling from under the others. The solution was a metal plate called a "Monkey" with 16 round indentations. But, if this plate were made of iron, the iron balls would quickly rust to it. The solution to the rusting problem was to make "Brass Monkeys." . .
................
OED has:

'P1. slang. cold enough to freeze the balls (also tail, etc.) off a brass monkey: extremely cold. Also in similar and allusive phrases, occas. referring to extreme heat rather than cold.
It has been suggested that this phrase alludes to a brass rack, called a monkey, used to stack cannonballs on ships (cf. perhaps monkey n. 13), from which the balls might be expelled as a result of the metal contracting in extreme cold weather, but this has not been proven.

[1835   F. Chamier Unfortunate Man I. iv. 117   He was told to be silent, in a tone of voice which set me shaking like a monkey in frosty weather.] . . '

See also: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_monkey_(colloquialism)


Message 50e5a913p13-9879-840+07.htm, number 127505, was posted on Wed Jan 18 at 14:00:02
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-9879-807-07.htm

P's and Q's, n.

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Jan 18, Lee Shore wrote
------------------------------
>I can not attest to the validity of these, but they sound right.

>At local tavern! s, pubs, and bars, people drank from pint and
>quart-sized containers. A bar maid's job was to keep an eye on the customers and keep the drinks coming. She had to pay close attention and remember who was drinking in "pints" and who was drinking in "quarts", hence the term "minding  your "P's and Q's".
>
>****************************** ******************************
OED has:

'P's a d Q's, n. Origin unknown.

The variant p. and q. (with points) in quot. 1607 at sense 1a suggests that the expression may perhaps have originated as a graphic abbreviation or was perceived as such at an early stage.

A common suggestion is that the phrase referred originally to the difficulty which a child beginning to read has in distinguishing the lower case letters p and q (or alternatively, the difficulty encountered by a typesetter, who will have to recognize these letters back to front);. . . However, the chronology of the senses would argue against this, and no such connotation is evident in the earliest quotations.

Another suggestion is that the expression refers to a sailor's pea-coat and queue (tarred pig-tail), with the phrases in sense 1b referring originally to soiling the coat with the pigtail. The only indication of a connection with clothing is in sense 1a, where pee in quot. 1602 could conceivably refer to a sailor's pea-coat (see pee n.1), though queue n. 4 is first attested significantly later, and the context in the quot. is not remotely nautical.

The expression is unlikely to be a shortening of pleases and thank yous , since this is apparently not attested independently as a phrase before the 20th cent.

There is no evidence to support a suggestion that expression originates in instructions for dance figures called in French pied and queue . Neither French word is attested in this sense.

The suggestion that sense 1b referred originally to a landlord confusing pints and quarts (of beer) on a customer's account can be neither substantiated nor dismissed (compare pint n., quart n.1).

In sense 2 sometimes interpreted as showing the initial letters of prime quality (see quot. 1876 at sense 2), although this would not account for the presence of the conjunction and , unless it were due to analogy with the expression at sense 1a.'


Message 47b879ac00A-9879-968+5a.htm, number 127506, was posted on Wed Jan 18 at 16:07:55
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9879-818-90.htm

Re: How to deal with mutiny

Don Seltzer


Nelson was extremely enthusiastic in his support for the quick executions.  At the time he wrote:

Theseus, July 9,1797.

 My dear Sir, In the first place, I congratulate you on the finish,
as it ought, of the St. George's business," and I (if I may be permitted to say so) very much approve of its being so speedily carried into execution, even although it is Sunday. The particular situation of the service requires extraordinary measures. I hope this will end all the disorders in our Fleet: had there been the same determined spirit at home, I do not believe it would have been half so bad, not but that I think Lord Howe's sending back the first petition was wrong.

Yours most affectionately and gratefully,

HORATIO NELSON.

On the same day, he also wrote to Jervis' captain, Sir Robert Calder:

My dear Sir,
 I am sorry that you should have to differ with [Vice- Admiral
Thompson] but had it been Christmas Day instead of Sunday, I would have executed them. We know not what might have been hatched by a Sunday's grog: now your discipline is safe. I talked to our people, and, I hope, with good effect: indeed, they seem a very quiet set.

Ever your most faithful,

HORATIO NELSON.

On Wed Jan 18, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>... When two men were convicted of mutiny one Saturday, he had them hung (sic) the next morning, despite one admiral protesting that he was profaning the Sabbath; St Vincent had him recalled. When the men of HMS Marlborough refused to hang a mutineer, St Vincent sent armed boats to surround the ship and prepare to fire; the Marl­borough's men hauled their shipmate up to meet his maker at the end of the yard arm.

>The ferocity of Jervis's discipline was carefully calculated to meet the demands of the moment: Britain was facing an ideological as well as a military threat, and those who spread sub­version and indiscipline were a fundamental threat to the state. Even Nelson, who took a far more modern view of his men, backed the admiral on this occasion . . ‘


Message 041077a400A-9879-1027+07.htm, number 127507, was posted on Wed Jan 18 at 17:07:38
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-9879-807-07.htm

Re: Did You Know?

CJP


I really enjoy stuff like this.  Thanks for sharing that!
Two more:  Giving someone "The whole nine yards" originated in WWII for the act of holding down the trigger in a fighter plane (P-51) until all ammo was expended.  The total length of the belts of linked .50 caliber ammunition stored in the wings was 27' or nine yards.
In trap shooting, the word "pull."  I always thought - and made some money as a kid - sitting in the little, low cinder block trap house manually cocking back the heavy spring-loaded arm, placing a clay randomly along its length, then retreating into a corner where I would "pull" the lanyard to launch the clay bird when I heard the shooter yell "Pull."  But alas, not so.  It originates with gentlemen shooters in centuries past hiring a young man to capture pigeons in the city and placing them in a cage that was brought to the shooting grounds for the match.  A chair was placed in the middle of a semi-circle of properly attired sportsmen, and one would volunteer the use of his top hat.  A pigeon would be removed from the cage, placed under the top hat on the chair, and a string would be tied to rise of the top hat.  When one of the gentlemen shooters was ready, he would call out "Pull," and the pigeon-keeper would pull the string to tip over the hat, and the pigeon (real not clay) would burst into flight and perhaps doom.  It was probably also a good way for gentlemen to shoot each other (accidentally) as the flight of the pigeon was not always in a safe direction for the other shooters!  Hence "Pull" and "clay pigeon."

Message 182d672f0Nn-9879-1416+5a.htm, number 127508, was posted on Wed Jan 18 at 23:36:07
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9879-818-90.htm

Re: How to deal with mutiny

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Jan 18, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
> ...However, he had more important matters to attend to, for the after-effects of the 1797 Spithead and Nore mutinies had reached the Mediterranean fleet...

At Spithead things ended all quite peaceably.  "On HMS Minotaur, delegate George Crossland, from Thorne, near Doncaster, petitioned Howe to remove Lieutenant William Compton 'for abuse and ill-treatment - it is the general wish of the ship's company to have him changed'. Also Surgeon Bell, 'for inattention to the sick and not being qualified'".

Great-Uncle George and the rest of the mutineers at Spithead ended up with pardons.

How to deal with a mutiny depends on what caused the mutiny, and whether the opposite ends of the spectrum were the only acceptable ends to the dispute. And of course, whether higher powers were scared enough to interced.

r,

Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-9880-374+06.htm, number 127509, was posted on Thu Jan 19 at 06:13:46
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-9879-807-07.htm

' . . Old English godsibb = Old Norse guð-sefe . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Jan 18, Lee Shore wrote
------------------------------
. . The two words "go sip" were eventually combined when referring to the local opinion and, thus we have the term "gossip".

A classic piece of folk etymology - pure fiction:

‘gossip   n. Old English godsibb = Old Norse guð-sefe, Old Swedish guzsowir . .
1. One who has contracted spiritual affinity with another by acting as a sponsor at a baptism.
a. In relation to the person baptized: A godfather or godmother; a sponsor. Now only arch. and dial. . .

2. a. A familiar acquaintance, friend, chum. Formerly applied to both sexes, now only (somewhat arch.) to women . .

3. A person, mostly a woman, of light and trifling character, esp. one who delights in idle talk; a newsmonger, a tattler.
. . 1687 Dryden Hind & Panther iii. 123 The common chat of Gossips when they meet . .

4. The conversation of such a person; idle talk; trifling or groundless rumour; tittle-tattle. Also, in a more favourable sense: Easy, unrestrained talk or writing, esp. about persons or social incidents.
. .1820 W. Irving Sketch Bk. II. 358 A kind of travelling gazette, carrying the whole budget of local gossip from house to house.’

(OED)


Message 182d672f0Nn-9880-660+59.htm, number 127508, was edited on Thu Jan 19 at 10:59:48
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9879-1416+5a.htm

Re: How to deal with mutiny

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Jan 18, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
> ...However, he had more important matters to attend to, for the after-effects of the 1797 Spithead and Nore mutinies had reached the Mediterranean fleet...

At Spithead things ended all quite peaceably.  "On HMS Minotaur, delegate George Crossland, from Thorne, near Doncaster, petitioned Howe to remove Lieutenant William Compton 'for abuse and ill-treatment - it is the general wish of the ship's company to have him changed'. Also Surgeon Bell, 'for inattention to the sick and not being qualified'".

Great-Uncle George and the rest of the mutineers at Spithead ended up with pardons.

How to deal with a mutiny depends on what caused the mutiny, and whether the opposite ends of the spectrum were the only acceptable ends to the dispute. And of course, whether higher powers were scared enough to intercede.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Thu Jan 19 by the author ]


Message adff84738YV-9880-785-90.htm, number 127510, was posted on Thu Jan 19 at 13:05:33
'Ware the Broomway!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


This travel piece evokes POB so strongly for me. It seems like just the sort of  place that he would casually drop into the narrative.



The Broomway is known as the most perilous path in Britain – and is a favourite walk of writer Robert Macfarlane, who describes it in this adaptation from his book The Old Ways.

By Robert Macfarlane

11 January 2017  

If you consult a large-scale map of the Essex coastline between the River Crouch and the River Thames, you will see a footpath – its route marked with a stitch-line of crosses and dashes – leaving the land at a place called Wakering Stairs and then heading due east, straight out to sea. Several hundred yards offshore, it curls northeast and runs in this direction for around three miles, still offshore, before cutting back to make landfall at Fisherman’s Head, the uppermost tip of a large, low-lying and little-known marshy island called Foulness.

   

This is the Broomway, allegedly “the deadliest” path in Britain, and certainly the unearthliest path I have ever walked. The Broomway is thought to have killed more than 100 people over the centuries; it seems likely that there were other victims whose fates went unrecorded. Sixty-six of its dead are buried in the little Foulness churchyard; the other bodies were not recovered. Edwardian newspapers, alert to the path’s reputation, rechristened it “The Doomway”.





The Broomway, marked with a dotted line on this map, traverses the sand and mud flats of Maplin Sands (Credit: Liz Henry/Flickr)

Even the Ordnance Survey map registers, in its sober fashion, the gothic atmosphere of the path. Printed in large pink lettering on the 1:25,000 map of that stretch of coast is the following message:

WARNING Public Rights of Way across Maplin Sands can be dangerous. Seek local guidance.

The Broomway traverses vast sand flats and mud flats that stretch almost unsloped for miles. When the tide goes out at Foulness, it goes out a great distance, revealing shires of sand packed hard enough to support the weight of a walker. When the tide comes back in, though, it comes fast – galloping over the sands quicker than a human can run.

Disorientation is a danger as well as inundation: in mist, rain or fog, it is easy to lose direction in such self-similar terrain, with shining sand extending in all directions. Nor are all of the surfaces that you encounter reliable: there is mud that can trap you and quicksand that can swallow you. But in good weather, following the right route, it can feel nothing more than a walk on a very large beach.

   Until 1932, the Broomway was the only means of getting to and from Foulness, save by boat

The Broomway takes its name from the 400 or so brooms that were formerly placed at intervals of between 30 and 60 yards on either side of the track, thereby indicating the safe passage on the hard sand that lay between them. Until 1932, the Broomway was the only means of getting to and from Foulness save by boat, for the island was isolated from the mainland by uncrossable creeks and stretches of mud known as the Black Grounds. The island is currently controlled by the Ministry of Defence, which purchased it during the First World War for “research purposes” and continues to conduct artillery-firing tests out over the sands.

Broomway

The Broomway is a path, but one that the tide sweeps clean twice a day (Credit: Adrian Miller/Flickr)

The route of the Broomway seems to have been broadly consistent since at least 1419 (when it is referred to in a manorial record for Foulness). Conceptually, it is close to paradox. It is a right of way and as such is inscribed on maps and in law, but is also swept clean of the trace of passage twice daily by the tide. What do you call a path that is no path? A riddle? A sequence of compass bearings? A Zen koan?

Before I left, my friend Patrick had given me a warning: “The Broomway will be there another day, but if you try to walk it in mist, you may not be. So if it’s misty when you arrive at Wakering Stairs, turn around and go home.”

It was misty when I arrived at Wakering Stairs. Early on a Sunday morning, and the air was white. It wasn’t a haar, a proper North Sea mist that blanked out the world. More of a dense sea haze. But visibility was poor enough that the foghorns were sounding, great bovine reverbs drifting up and down the coast. I stood on the sea wall, looking out into the mist, feeling the foghorns vibrating in my chest, and wondering if I could imaginatively re-categorise the weather conditions such that I could disregard Patrick’s final warning. I felt queasy with anxiety, but eager to walk.

With me, also nervous, was my old friend David Quentin, who I had convinced to join me on the path.



The causeway heads out to sea, then disappears into water (Credit: Phil Nevard)

Where the road met the sea wall, there was a heavy metal stop-barrier, tagged with a jay-blue graffiti scrawl. A red firing flag drooped at the foot of a tall flagpole. Beyond the stop-barrier was a bank of signs in waspy yellow-and-black type and imperative grammar, detailing bye-laws, tautologically identifying themselves as warnings, indemnifying the MoD against drownings, explosions and mud deaths, offering caveats to the walker, and grudgingly admitting that this was, indeed, the start of a public right of way:

Warning: The Broomway is unmarked and very hazardous to pedestrians.

Warning: Do not approach or touch any object as it may explode and kill you.

Away from the sea wall ran the causeway, perhaps five yards wide, formed of brick rubble and grey hardcore. It headed out to sea over the mud, before disappearing into water and mist. Poles had been driven into the mud on either side of the path, six feet tall, marking out its curling line. There were a few tussocks of eelgrass. The water’s surface was sheened with greys and silvers, like the patina on old mirror-glass. Otherwise, the causeway appeared to lead into a world of white.

   We stopped at the end of the causeway, looking out across the pathless future

After 300 yards the causeway ended, dipping beneath the sand like a river passing underground. Further out, a shallow sheen of water lay on top of the sand, stretching away. The diffused light made depth perception impossible, so that it seemed as if we were simply going to walk onwards into the ocean. We stopped at the end of the causeway, looking out across the pathless future. I took off my trainers and placed them on a tussock of eelgrass.



When the causeway ends, only marker posts dot the path (Credit: Nigel Cox)

“I’m worried that if we don’t make it back in time, the tide will float off with my shoes,” I said to David.

“If we don’t make it back in time, the tide will float off with your body,” he replied unconsolingly.

We stepped off the causeway. The water was warm on the skin, puddling to ankle depth. Underfoot I could feel the brain-like corrugations of the hard sand, so firmly packed that there was no give under the pressure of my step. Beyond us extended the sheer mirror-plane of the water, disrupted only here and there by shallow humps of sand and green slews of weed.

Out and on we walked, barefoot over and into the mirror-world. I glanced back at the coast. The air was grainy and flickering, like an old newsreel. The sea wall had hazed out to a thin black strip. Structures of unknown purpose – a white-beamed gantry, a low-slung barracks – showed on the shoreline. Every few hundred yards, I dropped a white cockle shell.

With so few orientation points and so many beckoning paths, we were finding it hard to stay on course. I was experiencing a powerful desire to walk straight out to sea and explore the greater freedoms of this empty tidal world.

But we were both still anxious about straying far from the notional path of the Broomway, and encountering the black mud or the quicksand.
Our directions said that we should reach something called the Maypole, a sunken telegraph pole with crosspieces that marked the southeastern edge of a tidal channel named Havengore Creek. But scale behaved strangely, and we weren’t paying sufficient attention to our pacings and distances. We became confused by other spars sticking up from the mud here and there: relics of wrecks, perhaps, or more likely the mark points of former channels long since silted up by the shifting sands.



The tide rises with remarkable speed (Credit: Peter Shaw)

At last we found and reached what was surely the Maypole. It resembled the final yards of a galleon’s topmast, the body of a ship long since sunk into those deep sands. At its base, the currents had carved basins in whose warm water we wallowed our feet, sending shrimps scurrying. We took an onwards bearing and continued over the silver shield of the water.

My brain was beginning to move unusually, worked upon and changed by the mind-altering substances of this offshore world, and by the elation that arose from the counter-intuition of walking securely on water. Out there, nothing could be only itself. The eye fed on false colour values. Mirages of scale occurred, and tricks of depth.

Walking always with us were our reflections, our attentive ghost selves. For the water acted as a mirror-line, such that we both appeared joined at the ankles with our doubles, me more than 12ft tall and David a foot taller still. If anyone had been able to look out from the shore, through the mist, they would have seen two long-shanked walkers striding over the sea.

~

You enter the mirror-world by a causeway and you leave it by one. From Asplin’s Head, a rubble jetty as wide as a farm track reaches out over the Black Grounds, offering safe passage to shore. As we approached the jetty the sand began to give way underfoot, and we broke through into sucking black mud. It was like striking oil – the glittering rich ooze gouting up around our feet. We slurped onwards to the causeway, the rubble of which had been colonized by a lurid green weed. Sea lavender and samphire thrived in the salt marsh.

By the time we reached the sea wall, David and I both wore diving boots of clay. We washed them off in a puddle, and stepped up onto a boat ramp. We had made landfall.

Beyond the causeway’s end, the shining sands stretched to a horizon line. One of Foulness’s farmers, John Burroughs, has spoken wistfully of coming out onto the sands in late autumn to hunt wigeon: he brings a board to use as a shooting stick and, leaning against it, feels that he “could be on the far side of the moon”. That felt exactly right: the walk out to sea as a soft lunacy, a passage beyond this world.

We walked back along the causeway to the point where the Broomway supposedly began, and there we turned into the wind and returned along the route by which we had come. Perhaps halfway back to the Maypole, emboldened by the day, we could no longer resist the temptation to explore further across the sand flats, and so we turned perpendicular to the line of the land and began walking straight out to sea, leaving the imagined safety of the Broomway behind us.



Stormy skies shadow the Broomway (Credit: Emma Emmerton)

That hour was an hour I will never forget. We did not know where the sand would slacken to mud, and yet somehow it never felt dangerous or rash. The tide was out and the moon would hold it out, and we had two hours in which to discover this vast revealed world: no more than two hours, for sure, but surely also no less. The serenity of the space through which we were moving calmed me to the point of invulnerability, and thus we walked on. A mile out, the white mist still hovered, and in the haze I started to perceive impossible forms and shapes: a fleet of Viking longboats with high lug-rigged square sails; a squadron of feluccas, dhows and sgoths; cityscapes (the skyline of Istanbul, the profile of the Houses of Parliament). When I looked back, the coastline was all but imperceptible, and it was apparent that our footprints had been erased behind us, and so we splashed tracelessly on out to the tidal limit. It felt at that moment unarguable that a horizon line might exert as potent a pull upon the mind as a mountain’s summit.

   The tide was out and the moon would hold it out, and we had two hours in which to discover this vast revealed world

Eventually, reluctantly, nearly two miles offshore, with the tide approaching its turn and our worries at last starting to rise through our calm – black mud through sand – we began a long slow arc back towards the coastline and the path of the Broomway, away from the outermost point. There was the return of bearings, the approach to land, a settling to recognisability.

Mud-caked and silly with the sun and the miles, we left the sand where it met the causeway near Wakering Stairs. There at the causeway’s frayed end, on the brink of the Black Grounds, were the marker poles, and there – perched on the top of their stand of eelgrass – were my faithful trainers, still waiting for me. I put them on and we walked out, off the mirror and onto the sea wall. For days afterwards I felt calm, level, shining, sand flat.

Adapted from THE OLD WAYS: A Journey on Foot by Robert Macfarlane, published by Viking, an imprint of Penguin Publishing Group, a division of Penguin Random House LLC. Copyright © 2012 by Robert Macfarlane.

This story is a part of BBC Britain – a series focused on exploring this extraordinary island, one story at a time. See every BBC Britain story by heading to the Britain homepage; you can also follow us on Facebook and Twitter.

www.bbc.com/travel/story/20170110-why-the-broomway-is-the-most-dangerous-path-in-britain?


Message 47b879ac00A-9880-1016+59.htm, number 127511, was posted on Thu Jan 19 at 16:56:34
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9880-660+59.htm

Re^2: How to deal with mutiny

Don Seltzer


On Thu Jan 19, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>At Spithead things ended all quite peaceably.  "On HMS Minotaur, delegate George Crossland, from Thorne, near Doncaster, petitioned Howe to remove Lieutenant William Compton 'for abuse and ill-treatment - it is the general wish of the ship's company to have him changed'. Also Surgeon Bell, 'for inattention to the sick and not being qualified'".

We Lay Before Your Lordship the Ill treatment We have received from Lieutenant Willm Compton In Beating Men Most Unmercifully, shaking Them. Pull off Their Jackets And Ordering two Boatswain's Mates to start them for No Crime Worth Mentioning. We have Always Done Our Duty As Men, Yet he as [sic] been Abusing Us and Dampning our Spirits by his Threats it becomes A British Officer to cherish As Much As in his power lays. Its Impossible to Insert in this Sheet the Many Acts of Cruelty, & the Many Men that has Run from this Ship through his Ill Usage, It's the Wish And Desire of the Ship's Company to have him changed.

Surgeon Bell for Inattention & Ill treatment to the Sick And Not being Qualified, as We can judge by Severall Accidents happening In the Ship, Such as Broken Bones. there is On Board Now Witnesses that has had the Misfortune to be Under his care In their cases. And for Not Visiting the sick for two or three Months together, & When Visiting has Often been Observed In Liquor, & Not serving to the sick, such Nourishments As is Allowed by Government and for the want of such Nourishments Many Men has Died in this Ship. There has been men Went Down to him for relief When sick, & he has told them that A Flogging Would Do them Most Good. It is the general Wish of the Ships company to have him chang'd.

Nicholas Hole master's Mate, for Defrauding the Ships Company Of their common nessaries Of Life, Particular Beer in Harbour and Water A Sea and giving the Captain false Reports such as telling him We have had more or Less of Water At Sea And at the same time there is not been A Drop of Water Hoisted Out of the Ship's Hold, & through them False Reports we are Almost Famished for Water At Sea. It is the Generall Wish of the Ships Company to have him chang'd.

There is A Great Number of the Men On Board that has been In Actual Service three Or four years and Have received No Other Pay than 17 6d per month, & it's their Wish & Hope that your Lordship Will take It into consideration to Rate them According to the Rules of the Navey. We have Applied to Cap'n Louis And he has told us that he Cannot Do it, It has caused A great Murmuring in the Ship & many has Done Their Duty Reluctantly, Because they Are Not Paid According to the Rules of the Navey.

Dated at Spithead On Board
The Minotaur April 24th 1797

So what happened to George after Spithead?  Did he remain aboard Minotaur when it sailed to the Mediterranean?  Could he have served under Nelson at the Nile?


Message 182d672f0Nn-9881-519+58.htm, number 127512, was posted on Fri Jan 20 at 08:40:14
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9880-1016+59.htm

Re^3: How to deal with mutiny

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Thu Jan 19, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>On Thu Jan 19, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>---------------------------------
>>At Spithead things ended all quite peaceably.  "On HMS Minotaur, delegate George Crossland, from Thorne, near Doncaster, petitioned Howe to remove Lieutenant William Compton 'for abuse and ill-treatment - it is the general wish of the ship's company to have him changed'. Also Surgeon Bell, 'for inattention to the sick and not being qualified'".

>We Lay Before Your Lordship the Ill treatment We have received from Lieutenant Willm Compton In Beating Men Most Unmercifully, shaking Them. Pull off Their Jackets And Ordering two Boatswain's Mates to start them for No Crime Worth Mentioning. We have Always Done Our Duty As Men, Yet he as [sic] been Abusing Us and Dampning our Spirits by his Threats it becomes A British Officer to cherish As Much As in his power lays. Its Impossible to Insert in this Sheet the Many Acts of Cruelty, & the Many Men that has Run from this Ship through his Ill Usage, It's the Wish And Desire of the Ship's Company to have him changed.

>Surgeon Bell for Inattention & Ill treatment to the Sick And Not being Qualified, as We can judge by Severall Accidents happening In the Ship, Such as Broken Bones. there is On Board Now Witnesses that has had the Misfortune to be Under his care In their cases. And for Not Visiting the sick for two or three Months together, & When Visiting has Often been Observed In Liquor, & Not serving to the sick, such Nourishments As is Allowed by Government and for the want of such Nourishments Many Men has Died in this Ship. There has been men Went Down to him for relief When sick, & he has told them that A Flogging Would Do them Most Good. It is the general Wish of the Ships company to have him chang'd.

>Nicholas Hole master's Mate, for Defrauding the Ships Company Of their common nessaries Of Life, Particular Beer in Harbour and Water A Sea and giving the Captain false Reports such as telling him We have had more or Less of Water At Sea And at the same time there is not been A Drop of Water Hoisted Out of the Ship's Hold, & through them False Reports we are Almost Famished for Water At Sea. It is the Generall Wish of the Ships Company to have him chang'd.

>There is A Great Number of the Men On Board that has been In Actual Service three Or four years and Have received No Other Pay than 17 6d per month, & it's their Wish & Hope that your Lordship Will take It into consideration to Rate them According to the Rules of the Navey. We have Applied to Cap'n Louis And he has told us that he Cannot Do it, It has caused A great Murmuring in the Ship & many has Done Their Duty Reluctantly, Because they Are Not Paid According to the Rules of the Navey.

>Dated at Spithead On Board
>The Minotaur April 24th 1797

>So what happened to George after Spithead?  Did he remain aboard Minotaur when it sailed to the Mediterranean?  Could he have served under Nelson at the Nile?

I haven't a clue.  Seeing that he defied, verbally and in writing, the leadership, however politely, of the greatest Navy in his world, I'm going to speculate George went on to become George Crossland, QC, or maybe wrote a novel.

It is one thing to defy authority in as a nameless member of a swirling mob.  It is a very different thing to go to continuing effing meetings as representative of your mates.

r,

Caltrop


Message 407d6dba00A-9881-544+05.htm, number 127513, was posted on Fri Jan 20 at 09:03:50
in reply to 041077a400A-9879-1027+07.htm

Re^2: Did You Know?

Max



Charley, I couldn't prove it but I think the 9 yards expression is from the previous century and refers to bolts of textiles.



On Wed Jan 18, CJP wrote
------------------------
>I really enjoy stuff like this.  Thanks for sharing that!
>Two more:  Giving someone "The whole nine yards" originated in WWII for the act of holding down the trigger in a fighter plane (P-51) until all ammo was expended.  The total length of the belts of linked .50 caliber ammunition stored in the wings was 27' or nine yards.
>In trap shooting, the word "pull."  I always thought - and made some money as a kid - sitting in the little, low cinder block trap house manually cocking back the heavy spring-loaded arm, placing a clay randomly along its length, then retreating into a corner where I would "pull" the lanyard to launch the clay bird when I heard the shooter yell "Pull."  But alas, not so.  It originates with gentlemen shooters in centuries past hiring a young man to capture pigeons in the city and placing them in a cage that was brought to the shooting grounds for the match.  A chair was placed in the middle of a semi-circle of properly attired sportsmen, and one would volunteer the use of his top hat.  A pigeon would be removed from the cage, placed under the top hat on the chair, and a string would be tied to rise of the top hat.  When one of the gentlemen shooters was ready, he would call out "Pull," and the pigeon-keeper would pull the string to tip over the hat, and the pigeon (real not clay) would burst into flight and perhaps doom.  It was probably also a good way for gentlemen to shoot each other (accidentally) as the flight of the pigeon was not always in a safe direction for the other shooters!  Hence "Pull" and "clay pigeon."

Message 50e5a913p13-9881-560+05.htm, number 127514, was posted on Fri Jan 20 at 09:20:55
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-9879-807-07.htm

' . . unless she can With her short Palms her streight-lac't body span.'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Jan 18, Lee Shore wrote
------------------------------
>I can not attest to the validity of these, but they sound right
>
>Ladies wore corsets which would lace up in the front. A tightly tied lace was worn by a proper and dignified lady as in "straight laced."

'strait-laced, adj. < strait adv.* < Latin strictus (see strict adj.) past participle of stringĕre to tighten, bind tightly: see strain v.1, stringent ad + laced adj.1
1. a. Wearing stays or bodice tightly laced. Obs.
. . 1650 J. Bulwer Anthropo-metamorphosis Pref., No Maid here's handsome thought, unless she can With her short Palms her streight-lac't body span.
. . 1698 J. Fryer New Acct. E.-India & Persia 394 A Plump Lass being in more esteem than our Slender and Strait-laced Maidens.

* C. adv.
1. a. Tightly. Obs. exc. dial.
. . 1884–6 R. Holland Gloss. Words County of Chester Stret, tightly. ‘Tee it stret,’ tie it tightly.’
.............................
(OED)


Message 50e5a913p13-9881-742-90.htm, number 127515, was posted on Fri Jan 20 at 12:22:36
'From the iphones of Montezuma to the servers of Tripoli . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


US Marines seek more than a few good men (3,000 men and women, actually) for cyber-war:

The head of the US Marines wants to recruit about 3,000 troops skilled in online warfare and espionage to make sure the Corps is ready for 21st-century battle . . If the army can't swell its computer security teams from its own ranks, it will have to tap up civilians. Getting good hackers and security folks for the armed forces isn't easy, though. In hacking competitions, civvies regularly clean the clocks of full-time military counterparts – and convincing them to sign up for military life in the Marine Corps could be a very tough sell indeed.

[www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/14/us_marines_seek_more_than_a_few_good_men_for_cyber_warfare/]


Message 50e5a913p13-9881-753-90.htm, number 127516, was posted on Fri Jan 20 at 12:33:25
Alex Thomson finishes runner-up in Vendee Globe race

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The British sailor Alex Thomson has finished runner-up in the Vendee Globe round-the-world yacht race after a colossal battle with Armel Le Cleac’h . . (who) won . . on Thursday afternoon in a record time of (just over) 74 days . . smash(ing) the race record . . by (nearly 4) days . .

. . Le Cleac’h had been in front since early December but Thomson chipped away at the lead and on Monday broke the world record for the greatest distance sailed solo in 24 hours, notching up 536.8 miles.(He) concede(d) that victory was unlikely on Wednesday as the wind instruments on his . . boat . . had prevented the yacht’s autopilot working properly and him from sleeping for days . .

[www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jan/20/alex-thomson-finishes-runner-up-in-vendee-globe-round-the-world-yacht-race-armel]


Message 50e5a913p13-9881-753+5a.htm, number 127516, was edited on Fri Jan 20 at 12:35:19
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9881-753-90.htm

Alex Thomson finishes runner-up in Vendee Globe race

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The British sailor Alex Thomson has finished runner-up in the Vendee Globe round-the-world yacht race after a colossal battle with Armel Le Cleac’h . . (who) won . . on Thursday afternoon in a record time of (just over) 74 days . . smash(ing) the race record . . by (nearly 4) days . .

. . Le Cleac’h had been in front since early December but Thomson chipped away at the lead and on Monday broke the world record for the greatest distance sailed solo in 24 hours, notching up 536.8 miles.(He) concede(d) that victory was unlikely on Wednesday as the wind instruments on his . . boat . . had prevented the yacht’s autopilot working properly and him from sleeping for days . .

[www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jan/20/alex-thomson-finishes-runner-up-in-vendee-globe-round-the-world-yacht-rac]

Chart: tracking2016.vendeeglobe.org/gv5ip0/

[ This message was edited on Fri Jan 20 by the author ]


Message 47b879ac00A-9881-1176+58.htm, number 127517, was posted on Fri Jan 20 at 19:36:05
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9881-519+58.htm

Where's George?

Don Seltzer



>>So what happened to George after Spithead?  Did he remain aboard Minotaur when it sailed to the Mediterranean?  Could he have served under Nelson at the Nile?

>I haven't a clue.  Seeing that he defied, verbally and in writing, the leadership, however politely, of the greatest Navy in his world, I'm going to speculate George went on to become George Crossland, QC, or maybe wrote a novel.

If you are interested in finding out, you can start with the UK National Archives asking for ADM36/12830, the Minotaur's muster book from April 1797 thru March 1798.

Uncle George was not aboard at Trafalgar in 1805.


Message 46d1d54400A-9881-1217-30.htm, number 127518, was posted on Fri Jan 20 at 20:17:03
when fact resembles fiction

Max





On board the GANGES, about 12 mos. ago, Lt. Gale, was struck by an Officer of the Navy, the Capt. took no notice of the Business and Gale got no satisfaction on the Cruise; the moment he arrived he call’d the Lieut. out and shot him; afterwards Politeness was restor’d”

—Signed “Yr obdt. Svt, W. W. Burrows, LtCol Comdt, MC” (2d CMC)


Message 50e5a913p13-9882-484+04.htm, number 127519, was posted on Sat Jan 21 at 08:04:33
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-9879-807-07.htm

Re: Did You Know? - Final episode

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Jan 18, Lee Shore wrote
------------------------------
>I can not attest to the validity of these, but they sound right

. .  therefore painting them would cost the buyer more. Hence the expression. "Okay, but it'll cost you an arm and a leg".
>
arm, n.1 < Germanic.
Phrases:
. . f. colloq. an arm and a leg: an enormous amount of money; an exorbitant price.

1924 Oakland (Calif.) Tribune 21 Nov. a35/6 There is so much interest in the game and so few seats, compared to the number of persons who would almost give an arm or a leg to see it.
1948 N.Y. Times 13 June r3 (Advt.), It's very welcome news to hear of a house that doesn't demand an arm and a leg to buy it.
>****************************** ****************************** ***
>
. .  Today we often use the term "here comes the Big Wig" because someone  appears to be or is powerful and wealthy.

bigwig, n. < big n.2 + wig n.3, on account of the large wigs formerly worn by men of distinction or importance. Chiefly humorous. Freq. derogatory. A person of high official standing; a noteworthy or important person.

1703 Eng. Spy 255 Be unto him ever ready to promote his wishes..against dun or don—nob or big-wig—so may you never want a bumper of bishop.
>****************************** ****************************** ***
>
>In the late 1700s, many houses consisted of a large room with only one
. . Today in business we use the expression or title "Chairman or Chairman of the Board".

chairman, n.
1. a. The occupier of a chair of authority; spec. the person who is chosen to preside over a meeting, to conduct its proceedings, and who occupies the chair or seat provided for this function.

1654   J. Trapp Comm. Job xxix. 25,   I sate chief, and was Chair-man . .
>
>****************************** ****************************** ***
>
.  . hence the term "crack a smile". Also, when they sat too close to the fire, the wax would melt and therefore the express on "losing face".

‘face, n. Anglo-Norman . .
. . 16. Reputation, credit; honour, good name. Originally used by the English trading community in China. [Partly after Chinese liǎn face, moral character, and partly after miànzi face, social prestige . .
1834 Chinese Repository Dec. 391 It behooves the present fraternity to have ‘a tender regard for their face’, lest they should lose their present high reputation for propriety.’

Phrases:
. . 2. h. (a) to lose face: to be humiliated, to lose one's credit, good name, or reputation; (hence) loss of face: humiliation. (b) to save face: to avoid being disgraced or humiliated . . [In to lose face after Chinese diū liǎn and diū miànzi (compare diū to lose). With to save face compare Chinese liú diǎr miànzi to leave face for someone, to not completely disgrace someone, also bǎoquán miànzi, liú miànzi to preserve face . .
1834 J. R. Morrison Chinese Commercial Guide at Face, To lose face denotes to fall into discredit.’
……………
(OED)

Any more folk etymology where these came from?


Message 182d672f0Nn-9882-581+57.htm, number 127520, was posted on Sat Jan 21 at 09:41:04
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9881-1176+58.htm

Re: Where's George?

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Fri Jan 20, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>>>>So what happened to George after Spithead?  Did he remain aboard Minotaur when it sailed to the Mediterranean?  Could he have served under Nelson at the Nile?

>>I haven't a clue.  Seeing that he defied, verbally and in writing, the leadership, however politely, of the greatest Navy in his world, I'm going to speculate George went on to become George Crossland, QC, or maybe wrote a novel.

>If you are interested in finding out, you can start with the UK National Archives asking for ADM36/12830, the Minotaur's muster book from April 1797 thru March 1798.

>Uncle George was not aboard at Trafalgar in 1805.

Yes, I noticed that after you brought up the question.  I suppose after Nores he was a marked man.  Or perhaps because he was on his way out anyway, he made a good representative.

Odd no one ever mentions his rank or rate.  I will assume he was literate and perhaps an up through the hawsehole warrant officer.  Most of those below decks were not.  Dead reckoning was figured after watchkeepers put pegs in holes in a representation of a 32-point compass.

1797 to 1805 was a particularly active period, wasn't it?

r,

Caltrop


Message 47b879ac00A-9882-631+57.htm, number 127521, was posted on Sat Jan 21 at 10:31:49
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9882-581+57.htm

Re^2: Where's George?

Don Seltzer


On Sat Jan 21, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------

>Odd no one ever mentions his rank or rate.  I will assume he was literate and perhaps an up through the hawsehole warrant officer.  Most of those below decks were not.  

One source rates him as Able Seaman, in his thirties. I don't konw if he would have been discharged after the mutiny.  In many instances troublemakers were split up and sent to other ships.


>Dead reckoning was figured after watchkeepers put pegs in holes in a representation of a 32-point compass.

The traverse board.  Every half hour the log was cast.  The speed and compass heading were recorded by a peg on the traverse board.  At the end of the watch, the vector sum of the eight segments was computed and entered into the ship's log.


Message 182d672f0Nn-9882-1055+57.htm, number 127522, was posted on Sat Jan 21 at 17:35:04
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9882-631+57.htm

Re^3: Where's George?

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Sat Jan 21, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>On Sat Jan 21, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>---------------------------------

>>Odd no one ever mentions his rank or rate.  I will assume he was literate and perhaps an up through the hawsehole warrant officer.  Most of those below decks were not.  

>One source rates him as Able Seaman, in his thirties. I don't konw if he would have been discharged after the mutiny.  In many instances troublemakers were split up and sent to other ships.
>
>
>>Dead reckoning was figured after watchkeepers put pegs in holes in a representation of a 32-point compass.

>The traverse board.  Every half hour the log was cast.  The speed and compass heading were recorded by a peg on the traverse board.  At the end of the watch, the vector sum of the eight segments was computed and entered into the ship's log.
>

Yes, a traverse board.  Made one to show for the local Sea Scouts to show them how it would work.

You say "one source" shows George Crossland as an able seaman. Would you be so good as to reveal that source?

r,

Caltrop


Message 47b879ac00A-9882-1338+57.htm, number 127523, was posted on Sat Jan 21 at 22:18:01
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9882-1055+57.htm

Re^4: Where's George?

Don Seltzer


On Sat Jan 21, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>You say "one source" shows George Crossland as an able seaman. Would you be so good as to reveal that source?

https://sites.google.com/site/kinghallconnections/1510-j-thomas-miller-snr-1/1513-j-mutiny-at-spithead

It is the same site where I found the wording of the grievance letter.  It seems to be a family research site.

But more official is an entry from the Minotaur's paybook (always follow the money)

ADM 27/2/115

George Crossland; Ship's name: HMS Minotaur; Pay book number: SB 759; Rank: Able Seaman; Relation: Wife Ann; When Alloted: 1797; Remarks: Not stated.


Message 50e5a913p13-9883-415+56.htm, number 127524, was posted on Sun Jan 22 at 06:55:11
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9882-1338+57.htm

Working link

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Jan 21, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>On Sat Jan 21, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>---------------------------------
>>You say "one source" shows George Crossland as an able seaman. Would you be so good as to reveal that source?

>sites.google.com/site/kinghallconnections/1510-j-thomas-miller-snr-1/1513-j-mutiny-at-spithead
which has a detailed site map:
sites.google.com/site/kinghallconnections/system/app/pages/sitemap/hierarchy
>It is the same site where I found the wording of the grievance letter.  It seems to be a family research site.

>But more official is an entry from the Minotaur's paybook (always follow the money)

>ADM 27/2/115

>George Crossland; Ship's name: HMS Minotaur; Pay book number: SB 759; Rank: Able Seaman; Relation: Wife Ann; When Alloted: 1797; Remarks: Not stated.


Message 50e5a913p13-9883-479-90.htm, number 127525, was posted on Sun Jan 22 at 07:59:10
Oops! Trident missile targets Florida

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


No 10 covered up A serious malfunction in Britain’s Trident nuclear weapons deterrent was covered up by Downing Street just weeks before the crucial House of Commons vote on the future of the missile system. The Sunday Times can reveal that a Trident II D5 missile — which can kill millions when armed with nuclear warheads — experienced an alarming failure after being launched from a British submarine off the coast of Florida in June last year.

It was the only firing test of a British nuclear missile in four years and raises serious questions about the reliability and safety of the weapons system. The failure prompted a news blackout by Downing Street that has remained in place until this weekend. The cause of the failure remains top secret but a senior naval source has told this newspaper that the missile — which was unarmed for the test — may have veered off in the wrong direction towards America after being launched from HMS Vengeance, one of Britain’s four nuclear-armed submarines. The source said:

“There was a major panic at the highest level of government and the military after the first test of our nuclear deterrent in four years ended in disastrous failure. Ultimately Downing Street decided to cover up the failed test. If the information was made public, they knew how damaging it would be to the credibility of our nuclear deterrent. The upcoming Trident vote made it all the more sensitive.”

The incident happened shortly before Theresa May became prime minister but she omitted any mention of the failed test when she persuaded parliament to spend £40bn on new Trident submarines in her first big Commons speech on July 18. The revelations are likely to cause a political storm. MPs and the public will want to know why such important information about the effectiveness of Britain’s only nuclear deterrent was withheld before the crucial debate on the Trident weapons system’s future. It is expected that Michael Fallon, the defence secretary, will be called to the Commons to answer questions from MPs about the test.

Kevan Jones, a Labour MP and former defence minister, yesterday called for an inquiry into the failed missile test. “The UK’s independent nuclear deterrent is a vital cornerstone for the nation’s defence,” he said. There was a major panic at the highest level of government and the military after the first test of our nuclear deterrent in four years ended in disastrous failure: “If there are problems, they should not have been covered up in this ham-fisted way. Ministers should come clean if there are problems and there should be an urgent inquiry into what happened.”
2012: Royal Navy last successful Test Launch of Trident
The Trident missiles have been test-fired only five times by UK submarines this century because they each cost £17m. The previous tests — in 2000, 2005, 2009 and 2012 — have all been widely publicised by the Ministry of Defence and Lockheed Martin, the weapon’s US manufacturer, as demonstrations to the world of Trident’s reliability. The 2012 test was attended by VIPs and a film of the launch both inside and outside the submarine was released on the internet. But the failed Vengeance test last June was followed by a complete news silence by the British government and the missile’s manufacturer. In December 2015 Vengeance returned to sea for the first time in four years after an extensive refit including the installation of a new missile launch system. It undertook months of tests culminating in the test-firing of a Trident missile.

The source had told this newspaper that the test took place at the end of June — about the time of the Brexit vote on June 23. Three days earlier a warning was issued to pilots to avoid “hazard areas” over the Atlantic due to “a missile launch/splash down”. It appears that Vengeance’s missile was intended to be fired 5,600 miles to a sea target off the west coast of Africa. But the source says the missile suffered an in-flight malfunction after launching out of the water. The source believes this led to it veering off target. Michael Elleman, an engineer who helped to develop Trident, said that if the launch had not been a test and the missile had been armed, then the consequences could have been “collateral damage on steroids”.

The failure means it is 16 years since Vengeance has successfully fired a missile but it has, nonetheless, returned to active service. A statement by the defence ministry yesterday confirmed that the missile test had taken place in June but declined to comment on why it had failed or to say whether there had been a threat to safety. It said the submarine was “successfully tested and certified” and it had absolute confidence in the UK’s nuclear deterrent.

Michael Clarke, former director-general of the Royal United Services Institute, a defence think tank, said: “Reliability problems tend to become cumulative. The infrastructure of the whole system is in need of some urgent investment.”

[www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-10-covered-up-trident-missile-fiasco-hch3shsrn]


Message 50e5a913p13-9883-778-90.htm, number 127526, was posted on Sun Jan 22 at 12:58:28
Top 25 British War Films

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'We could argue all day about the definition of a British War Film and what the best means but for this entirely unscientific list, the definition of a British War Film is one that is largely British in character. They may have been directed by non-British directors, have non-British actors and may even have been made in Hollywood or elsewhere, but they retain that element of Britishness that we all understand. So no Das Boot, Saving Private Ryan, Apocalypse Now or other such great films.

The judging criteria do not include historical accuracy, whether the correct buttons and rank insignia were worn, or whether the film is a ‘visceral and worthy portrayal of the realities of war’ or some other such artsy bollocks, instead, it is simply enjoyability for a wet Sunday afternoon in. So, it is not a list for the film buff, historian or the yoghurt-weaving wheatgrass smoothy types for them to bemoan the inhumanity and pointlessness of war.

Most of these have a back story that is as good as, if not better, than the film.

In reverse order, the Top 25 British War Films:

. . 20 – Master and Commander

. . Russell Crowe is actually very good in this.

Capt. Jack Aubrey: England is under threat of invasion, and though we be on the far side of the world, this ship is our home. This ship *is* England.

Watch it because…

The Royal Navy giving the French a proper kicking.
The lesser of two weevils
Happy days.

. . 1 – Zulu

Zulu is a 1964 epic war film depicting the Battle of Rorke's Drift between the British Army and the Zulus in January 1879, during the Anglo-Zulu War. It depicts 150 British soldiers, many of whom were sick and wounded patients in a field hospital, who successfully held off a force of 4,000 Zulu warriors.

Probably no surprise this is Number 1

Forget the outrageous slurs on the good character of Private Henry Hook (who was a model soldier and campaigning tee-totaller) andCommissaryy James Langley Dalton (who was the most experienced soldier at the mission station and widely credited with initiating the defence)

And

Forget British War Films, this is the best War Film full stop, in fact, forget War Films, Zulu is without a shadow of a doubt, THE best film ever made

The best bits are far too many to list.

Colour Sergeant Bourne: It’s a miracle.

Lieutenant John Chard: If it’s a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it’s a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.

Colour Sergeant Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind.

The final scene is, as the kids say, awesome:

…………
[www.thinkdefence.co.uk/top-25-british-war-films/]


Message 6bd5c1a400A-9883-831-07.htm, number 127527, was posted on Sun Jan 22 at 13:51:07
Some More "Could Be", "Should Be" and "Maybe"

Lee Shore


Again, I can not attest to the veracity of these. Some seem a little too far of a stretch (Hmmm, where did that come from?).


They used to use urine to tan animal skins, so families used to all pee in a pot. Once a day it was taken and sold to the tannery.


If you had to do this to survive, you were “piss poor.”


But worse than that were the really poor folks who couldn’t even afford to buy a pot. They “didn’t have a pot to piss in” and were considered the lowest of the low.

Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May, and they still smelled pretty good by June.
However, since they were starting to smell, brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the body odor.


Hence the custom today of carrying a bouquet when getting married.

Baths consisted of a big tub filled with hot water.


The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women, and finally the children. Last of all the babies.


By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it. Hence the saying, “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water!”

Houses had thatched roofs with thick straw-piled high and no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the cats and other small animals (mice, bugs) lived in the roof.


When it rained, it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof. Hence the saying, “It’s raining cats and dogs.”


There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could mess up your nice clean bed.


Hence, a bed with big posts and a sheet hung over the top afforded some protection. That’s how canopy beds came into existence.

The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt. Hence the term, “dirt poor.”
The wealthy had slate floors that would get slippery in the winter when wet, so they spread thresh (straw) on the floor to help keep their footing.
As the winter wore on, they added more thresh until, when you opened the door, it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed in the entrance-way
Hence, “a thresh hold.

In those old days, they cooked in the kitchen with a big kettle that always hung over the fire. Every day, they lit the fire and added things to the pot.


They ate mostly vegetables and did not get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner, leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day.


Sometimes stew had food in it that had been there for quite a while. Hence the rhyme, “Peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old.”


Sometimes they could obtain pork, which made them feel quite special. When visitors came over, they would hang up their bacon to show off.


It was a sign of wealth that a man could “bring home the bacon.” They would cut off a little to share with guests, and would all sit around and “chew the fat.”

Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food, causing lead poisoning death.


This happened most often with tomatoes, so for the next 400 years or so, tomatoes were considered poisonous.


Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or the “upper crust.”

Lead cups were used to drink ale or whisky. The combination would sometimes knock the imbibers out for a couple of days.


Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial.
They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up.


Hence the custom of holding a “wake.”

In old, small villages, local folks started running out of places to bury people.
So they would dig up coffins and would take the bones to a bone-house, and reuse the grave.


When reopening these coffins, 1 out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside, and they realized they had been burying people alive.
So they would tie a string on the wrist of the corpse, lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell.
Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night (“the graveyard shift”) to listen for the bell.


Thus, someone could be “saved by the bell,” or was considered a “dead ringer.”
Now, whoever said history was boring?


Message 31bb0ee600A-9884-104+06.htm, number 127528, was posted on Mon Jan 23 at 01:44:55
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-9883-831-07.htm

Re: Some More "Could Be", "Should Be" and "Maybe"

wombat


On Sun Jan 22, Lee Shore wrote
------------------------------
>Again, I can not attest to the veracity of these. Some seem a little too far of a stretch (Hmmm, where did that come from?).

.....

>Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food, causing lead poisoning death.
>
>
>This happened most often with tomatoes, so for the next 400 years or so, tomatoes were considered poisonous.
>

Yes.
I had just been reading about old pewter and the ill-effects of its lead content
in a Smithsonian publication about the elements.

I checked the Smithsonian website and they confirm that pewter paid a part in the evil reputation gained by the tomato. They say that it was the 1597 Herball of John Gerard that "really did the tomato in"  
www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/why-the-tomato-was-feared-in-europe-for-more-than-200-years-863735/





>Lead cups were used to drink ale or whisky. The combination would sometimes knock the imbibers out for a couple of days.
>
>
>Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial.
>They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up.
>
>
>Hence the custom of holding a “wake.”


As to the connection between lead poisoning and wakes, Britannica and Wikipedia do not mention the concern about lead comas.  Here's Britannica on the drinking orgy aspect of wakes : https://www.britannica.com/topic/wake-religious-rite. And, to remind you of a famous wake/orgy,  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S5UTbUSiLM


Message 31bb0ee600A-9884-111+06.htm, number 127529, was posted on Mon Jan 23 at 01:50:58
in reply to 31bb0ee600A-9884-104+06.htm

Better links?

wombat



>As to the connection between lead poisoning and wakes, Britannica and Wikipedia do not mention the concern about lead comas.  Here's Britannica on the drinking orgy aspect of wakes : www.britannica.com/topic/wake-religious-rite. And, to remind you of a famous wake/orgy,  www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S5UTbUSiLM







Message 4747fb3e8HW-9884-1342-30.htm, number 127530, was posted on Mon Jan 23 at 22:23:02
Baths twice a year?!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"As incredible as it sounds, men and women took baths only twice a year! (May and October)."

I used to hear it commonly claimed that in those oft-invented olden days families bathed only once a week—usually Saturday night, before Sunday-go-to-meeting morning.  As a child I don't recall questioning it.

As an adult I could shower whenever I wanted, and at first I didn't want to very much.  (I still find it an annoying waste of time—but a necessary one, I'm forced to admit.  I feel the same way about sleep, most of the time.  Getting dressed in the morning.  Sweeping the floor.  Sometimes reading the Bible, and eating.  But I gotta; the alternative is worse, in each case.)  But I discovered that the result of not bathing at least every few days is ... well, not to be described here.  I suppose I may have an unusually disgusting body, but I'm going to guess instead that bathing only once a week isn't credible.  And twice a year?  Let's not be silly.

More recently it occurred to me that I'm missing a bet.  In our luxurious society I've never attempted it, but maybe a full bath/shower isn't necessary several times a week if one performs lesser ablutions daily, with soap, water and a washcloth, not all over but just in certain critical areas.  Maybe that's what's meant by the claim that they took a bath only once a week (or whatever).


Message 46d1c01700A-9885-712+1d.htm, number 127531, was posted on Tue Jan 24 at 11:52:16
in reply to 4747fb3e8HW-9884-1342-30.htm

Plenty of first hand reports

Max


Bob, there is plenty of reliable first hand reportage on this issue:

www.andreazuvich.com/history/the-hygiene-of-the-17th-century/?doing_wp_cron=1485005716.3456959724426269531250





On Mon Jan 23, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>"As incredible as it sounds, men and women took baths only twice a year! (May and October)."

>I used to hear it commonly claimed that in those oft-invented olden days families bathed only once a week—usually Saturday night, before Sunday-go-to-meeting morning.  As a child I don't recall questioning it.

>As an adult I could shower whenever I wanted, and at first I didn't want to very much.  (I still find it an annoying waste of time—but a necessary one, I'm forced to admit.  I feel the same way about sleep, most of the time.  Getting dressed in the morning.  Sweeping the floor.  Sometimes reading the Bible, and eating.  But I gotta; the alternative is worse, in each case.)  But I discovered that the result of not bathing at least every few days is ... well, not to be described here.  I suppose I may have an unusually disgusting body, but I'm going to guess instead that bathing only once a week isn't credible.  And twice a year?  Let's not be silly.

>More recently it occurred to me that I'm missing a bet.  In our luxurious society I've never attempted it, but maybe a full bath/shower isn't necessary several times a week if one performs lesser ablutions daily, with soap, water and a washcloth, not all over but just in certain critical areas.  Maybe that's what's meant by the claim that they took a bath only once a week (or whatever).


Message 50e5a913p13-9885-827+1d.htm, number 127532, was posted on Tue Jan 24 at 13:47:38
in reply to 46d1c01700A-9885-712+1d.htm

Re: Plenty of first hand reports

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Jan 24, Max wrote
------------------------
>Bob, there is plenty of reliable first hand reportage on this issue:

None more than this:

'Up, and to the office, where all the morning. At noon to the ‘Change . . Thence to the Sun taverne, and there dined with Sir W. Warren and Mr. Gifford, the merchant:  . . But, Lord! to see how full the house is, no room for any company almost to come into it.
She Who Must Be Obeyed
Thence home to the office, where dispatched much business; at night late home, and to clean myself with warm water; my wife will have me, because she do herself, and so to bed.

[www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1665/02/25/]
. . And finally, the plumbing!

. . Bathrooms had yet to be invented and washing of the body is rarely mentioned in the diary with one notable exception. On 21st February 1665, Elizabeth visited a “hot-house” (Turkish Bath). Sam ruefully noted “how long it will hold I can guess”. The following night she would not let Sam sleep with her and he complained of being cold, alone in his bed. The following night he gave in and “cleaned himself with warm water, my wife will have me because she do herself, and so to bed”. Elizabeth had made her point and bathing was never mentioned again.

[www.pepysdiary.com/indepth/2011/09/23/at-home/]


Message 50e5a913p13-9885-828+1d.htm, number 127532, was edited on Tue Jan 24 at 13:48:35
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9885-827+1d.htm

Saturday 25 February 1665 . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Jan 24, Max wrote
------------------------
>Bob, there is plenty of reliable first hand reportage on this issue:

None more than this:

'Up, and to the office, where all the morning. At noon to the ‘Change . . Thence to the Sun taverne, and there dined with Sir W. Warren and Mr. Gifford, the merchant:  . . But, Lord! to see how full the house is, no room for any company almost to come into it.
She Who Must Be Obeyed
Thence home to the office, where dispatched much business; at night late home, and to clean myself with warm water; my wife will have me, because she do herself, and so to bed.

[www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1665/02/25/]
. . And finally, the plumbing!

. . Bathrooms had yet to be invented and washing of the body is rarely mentioned in the diary with one notable exception. On 21st February 1665, Elizabeth visited a “hot-house” (Turkish Bath). Sam ruefully noted “how long it will hold I can guess”. The following night she would not let Sam sleep with her and he complained of being cold, alone in his bed. The following night he gave in and “cleaned himself with warm water, my wife will have me because she do herself, and so to bed”. Elizabeth had made her point and bathing was never mentioned again.

[www.pepysdiary.com/indepth/2011/09/23/at-home/]

[ This message was edited on Tue Jan 24 by the author ]


Message d43867a100A-9885-831+1d.htm, number 127533, was posted on Tue Jan 24 at 13:50:55
in reply to 46d1c01700A-9885-712+1d.htm

Re: Plenty of first hand reports

Guest


On Tue Jan 24, Max wrote
------------------------
>Bob, there is plenty of reliable first hand reportage on this issue:

>www.andreazuvich.com/history/the-hygiene-of-the-17th-century/?doing_wp_cron=1485005716.3456959724426269531250

I was going to dig out my copy of Ruth Goodman's "How to Be a Tudor: A Dawn-to-Dusk Guide to Tudor Life" which explains how clean she was keeping to a regime of frequently changed linen underclothes.  But then I found that there was a link to Ruth's material in the article Max cited: newrepublic.com/article/129828/getting-clean-tudor-way

Definitely worth reading!


Message 50e5a913p13-9885-838+1d.htm, number 127534, was posted on Tue Jan 24 at 13:58:26
in reply to 46d1c01700A-9885-712+1d.htm

How Often Did Queen Elizabeth I Have A Bath?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Jan 24, Max wrote
------------------------
>Bob, there is plenty of reliable first hand reportage on this issue:

And plenty of 'alternative facts' as well:
youtu.be/VAQPOJCqzcs


Message 50e5a913p13-9885-839+1d.htm, number 127534, was edited on Tue Jan 24 at 13:59:06
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9885-838+1d.htm

How Often Did Queen Elizabeth I Have A Bath?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Jan 24, Max wrote
------------------------
>Bob, there is plenty of reliable first hand reportage on this issue:

And plenty of 'alternative facts' as well:

[ This message was edited on Tue Jan 24 by the author ]


Message 50c3bb1f00A-9886-311+57.htm, number 127535, was posted on Wed Jan 25 at 05:10:55
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9883-778-90.htm

Re: Top 25 British War Films

Niceredtrousers


Couldn't agree more.  I have been brushing up the cultural education of my ten-year-old with The Great Escape, A Bridge Too Far, The Italian Job etc.  
Next time we have a boys' night in it'll be Zulu I think.  Master and Commander will follow.
There's a list (in my head) that keeps getting added to and reshuffled.




On Sun Jan 22, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>'We could argue all day about the definition of a British War Film and what the best means but for this entirely unscientific list, the definition of a British War Film is one that is largely British in character. They may have been directed by non-British directors, have non-British actors and may even have been made in Hollywood or elsewhere, but they retain that element of Britishness that we all understand. So no Das Boot, Saving Private Ryan, Apocalypse Now or other such great films.

>The judging criteria do not include historical accuracy, whether the correct buttons and rank insignia were worn, or whether the film is a ‘visceral and worthy portrayal of the realities of war’ or some other such artsy bollocks, instead, it is simply enjoyability for a wet Sunday afternoon in. So, it is not a list for the film buff, historian or the yoghurt-weaving wheatgrass smoothy types for them to bemoan the inhumanity and pointlessness of war.

>Most of these have a back story that is as good as, if not better, than the film.

>In reverse order, the Top 25 British War Films:
>
> . . 20 – Master and Commander

> . . Russell Crowe is actually very good in this.

>Capt. Jack Aubrey: England is under threat of invasion, and though we be on the far side of the world, this ship is our home. This ship *is* England.

>Watch it because…

>The Royal Navy giving the French a proper kicking.
>The lesser of two weevils
>Happy days.
>

> . . 1 – Zulu

>Zulu is a 1964 epic war film depicting the Battle of Rorke's Drift between the British Army and the Zulus in January 1879, during the Anglo-Zulu War. It depicts 150 British soldiers, many of whom were sick and wounded patients in a field hospital, who successfully held off a force of 4,000 Zulu warriors.

>Probably no surprise this is Number 1

>Forget the outrageous slurs on the good character of Private Henry Hook (who was a model soldier and campaigning tee-totaller) andCommissaryy James Langley Dalton (who was the most experienced soldier at the mission station and widely credited with initiating the defence)

>And

>Forget British War Films, this is the best War Film full stop, in fact, forget War Films, Zulu is without a shadow of a doubt, THE best film ever made

>The best bits are far too many to list.

>Colour Sergeant Bourne: It’s a miracle.

>Lieutenant John Chard: If it’s a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it’s a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.

>Colour Sergeant Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind.

>The final scene is, as the kids say, awesome:
>
>…………
>[www.thinkdefence.co.uk/top-25-british-war-films/]
>


Message 50e5a913p13-9886-401-07.htm, number 127536, was posted on Wed Jan 25 at 06:40:37
'In West Africa why is the harmattan wind known as 'the doctor'?' . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today's question for Dr M from Oxford Reference; find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780199211944.001.0001/acref-9780199211944-e-3787

Message 46d1c01700A-9886-679+57.htm, number 127537, was posted on Wed Jan 25 at 11:18:46
in reply to 50c3bb1f00A-9886-311+57.htm

From a strictly film standpoint

Max


Lawrence of Arabia is far and away the best film on the list.
Brilliant and unique. A great film maker at the absolute top of his game.




n Wed Jan 25, Niceredtrousers wrote
------------------------------------
>Couldn't agree more.  I have been brushing up the cultural education of my ten-year-old with The Great Escape, A Bridge Too Far, The Italian Job etc.  
>Next time we have a boys' night in it'll be Zulu I think.  Master and Commander will follow.
>There's a list (in my head) that keeps getting added to and reshuffled.
>
>
>
>
>On Sun Jan 22, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>'We could argue all day about the definition of a British War Film and what the best means but for this entirely unscientific list, the definition of a British War Film is one that is largely British in character. They may have been directed by non-British directors, have non-British actors and may even have been made in Hollywood or elsewhere, but they retain that element of Britishness that we all understand. So no Das Boot, Saving Private Ryan, Apocalypse Now or other such great films.

>>The judging criteria do not include historical accuracy, whether the correct buttons and rank insignia were worn, or whether the film is a ‘visceral and worthy portrayal of the realities of war’ or some other such artsy bollocks, instead, it is simply enjoyability for a wet Sunday afternoon in. So, it is not a list for the film buff, historian or the yoghurt-weaving wheatgrass smoothy types for them to bemoan the inhumanity and pointlessness of war.

>>Most of these have a back story that is as good as, if not better, than the film.

>>In reverse order, the Top 25 British War Films:
>>
>> . . 20 – Master and Commander

>> . . Russell Crowe is actually very good in this.

>>Capt. Jack Aubrey: England is under threat of invasion, and though we be on the far side of the world, this ship is our home. This ship *is* England.

>>Watch it because…

>>The Royal Navy giving the French a proper kicking.
>>The lesser of two weevils
>>Happy days.
>>

>> . . 1 – Zulu

>>Zulu is a 1964 epic war film depicting the Battle of Rorke's Drift between the British Army and the Zulus in January 1879, during the Anglo-Zulu War. It depicts 150 British soldiers, many of whom were sick and wounded patients in a field hospital, who successfully held off a force of 4,000 Zulu warriors.

>>Probably no surprise this is Number 1

>>Forget the outrageous slurs on the good character of Private Henry Hook (who was a model soldier and campaigning tee-totaller) andCommissaryy James Langley Dalton (who was the most experienced soldier at the mission station and widely credited with initiating the defence)

>>And

>>Forget British War Films, this is the best War Film full stop, in fact, forget War Films, Zulu is without a shadow of a doubt, THE best film ever made

>>The best bits are far too many to list.

>>Colour Sergeant Bourne: It’s a miracle.

>>Lieutenant John Chard: If it’s a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it’s a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.

>>Colour Sergeant Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind.

>>The final scene is, as the kids say, awesome:
>>
>>…………
>>[www.thinkdefence.co.uk/top-25-british-war-films/]
>>


Message 50e5a913p13-9887-363-90.htm, number 127538, was posted on Thu Jan 26 at 06:03:24
Anyone for dystopia?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘Forget Nineteen Eighty-Four. These five dystopias better reflect Trump’s US:
           
Since the inauguration of Donald Trump as president of the United States, George Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four has shot up the bestseller charts. The book’s chilling account of a couple’s struggle against a dystopian society has many elements that will strike a contemporary reader as disturbingly prescient. Orwell’s description of “doublespeak” – the ability, and requirement, to utterly believe two contradictory thoughts at the same time – feels tailor-made for a president who simultaneously believes that three to five million “illegals” voted in the election, and that his victory in that election was completely fair and valid.

Similarly, the Party’s slogan that “Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past” seems to chime with the White House’s incorrect claim that Trump won the general election with “the most [electoral votes] since any Republican since Reagan” (he didn’t) or that the crowd on 20 January was the “largest audience to ever witness an inauguration” (it wasn’t).

But Nineteen Eighty-Four is also a book about a particular kind of dystopian state: an authoritarian Stalinist future-Britain, based on the fears Orwell felt most pressing in 1948. Maybe it’s time to find better dystopias? . . ‘

Readers are invited to contribute their own preferred dystopia at the end.

[www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/26/1984-dystopias-reflect-trumps-us-orwell]


Message 50e5a913p13-9887-409-90.htm, number 127539, was posted on Thu Jan 26 at 06:49:33
The christening of Pablo Picasso

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


I’ve been reading POB’s Pablo Ruiz Picasso: A Biography*, mainly for the pleasure of his unique prose style rather than a desire to learn about the artist. I recommend it to other forumites who feel the need for something meaty:
 photo 81dPdbK0d5L.jpg
‘ . . The Spaniards who reconquered Andalucia came from many different regions, each with its own way of speaking; and partly because of this and partly because of the large numbers of Arabic-speaking people, Christian, Jew, and Moslem, they evolved a fresh dialect of their own, a Spanish in which the s is often lost and the h often sounded, a brogue as distinct as that of Munster: one that perplexes the foreigner and that makes the Castilian laugh. In time the Moors and the Jews were more or less efficiently expelled or forcibly converted, and eventually many of the descendants of these converts, the "new Christians," were also driven from the country; but they left their genes behind, and many of their ways-their attitude towards women, for example. Then again there is a fierce democratic independence combined with an ability to live under a despotic regime that is reminiscent of the egalitarianism of Islam: no one could call the Spaniards as a whole a deferential nation, but this charac­teristic grows even more marked as one travels south, to reach its height in Andalucia. And as one travels south, so the physical evidence of these genes becomes more apparent; the Arab, the Berber, and the Jew peep out, to say nothing of the Phoenician; and the Castilian or the Catalan is apt to lump the Andalou in with the Gypsies, a great many of whom live in those parts. For the solid bourgeois of Madrid or Barcelona the An­dalou is something of an outsider; he is held in low esteem, as being wanting in gravity, assiduity, and respect for the establishment. Malaga itself had a solid reputation for being against the government, for being impatient of authority: it was a contentious city, in spite of its conforming bourgeoisie. In the very square in which Picasso was born there is a mon­ument to a general and forty-nine of his companions, including a Mr. Robert Boyd, who rose in favor of the Constitution and who were all shot in Malaga in 1831 and buried in the square; it also commemorates the hero of another rising, Riego, after whom the square was officially named, although it has now reverted to its traditional name of the Plaza de la Merced, from the church of Nuestra Senora de la Merced, which used to stand in its north-east corner. There were many other risings. insurrec­tions, and pronunciamientos in Malaga during the nineteenth century, in­cluding one against Espartero in 1843, another against Queen Isabella II in 1868 (this, of course, was part of the greater turmoil of the Revolu­tion), and another in favor of a republic only eight years before Picasso's birth. But although many of these risings, both in Malaga and the rest of Spain, had a strongly anticlerical element, with churches and monasteries going up in flames and monks, nuns, friars, and even hermits being ex­pelled and dispossessed, the Spaniards remained profoundly Catholic, and the Malaguenos continued to live their traditional religious life, cele­brating the major feasts of the Church with splendid bull-fights, making pilgrimages to local shrines, forming great processions in Holy Week, hating what few heretics they ever saw (until 1830 Protestants had to be buried on the foreshore, where heavy seas sometimes disinterred them), and of course baptizing their children. It would have been unthinkable for Picasso not to have been christened, and sixteen days after his birth he was taken to the parish church of Santiago el Mayor (whose tower was once a minaret), where the priest of La Merced gave him the names Pa­blo, Diego, Jose, Francisco de Paula, Juan Nepomuceno, Maria de los Remedios, and Cipriano de la Santisima Trinidad, together with some salt to expel the devil . . ’

* Collins, St James’s Place, London: 1976.
www.amazon.co.uk/Picasso-Biography-Patrick-OBrian/dp/0007173571


Message 182d672f0Nn-9887-487+5a.htm, number 127540, was posted on Thu Jan 26 at 08:07:00
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9887-363-90.htm

No thanks, just had eight years of it

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Wasn't "PC" just a repackaged form of doublethink?

r,

Caltrop


Message 44654cc700A-9887-566+5a.htm, number 127541, was posted on Thu Jan 26 at 09:26:05
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9887-363-90.htm

Re: Anyone for dystopia?

A-Polly


Thanks, Chrístõ.  Some titles I haven't thought of in a long time.

>

On Thu Jan 26, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>‘Forget Nineteen Eighty-Four. These five dystopias better reflect Trump’s US:
>            
>Since the inauguration of Donald Trump as president of the United States, George Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four has shot up the bestseller charts. The book’s chilling account of a couple’s struggle against a dystopian society has many elements that will strike a contemporary reader as disturbingly prescient. Orwell’s description of “doublespeak” – the ability, and requirement, to utterly believe two contradictory thoughts at the same time – feels tailor-made for a president who simultaneously believes that three to five million “illegals” voted in the election, and that his victory in that election was completely fair and valid.

>Similarly, the Party’s slogan that “Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past” seems to chime with the White House’s incorrect claim that Trump won the general election with “the most [electoral votes] since any Republican since Reagan” (he didn’t) or that the crowd on 20 January was the “largest audience to ever witness an inauguration” (it wasn’t).

>But Nineteen Eighty-Four is also a book about a particular kind of dystopian state: an authoritarian Stalinist future-Britain, based on the fears Orwell felt most pressing in 1948. Maybe it’s time to find better dystopias? . . ‘

>Readers are invited to contribute their own preferred dystopia at the end.

>[www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/26/1984-dystopias-reflect-trumps-us-orwell]


Message 473ecd18yqu-9887-921+5a.htm, number 127542, was posted on Thu Jan 26 at 15:20:58
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9887-487+5a.htm

Re: No thanks, just had eight years of it

BrandenburgThree
altoclef789@gmail.com


On Thu Jan 26, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>Wasn't "PC" just a repackaged form of doublethink?

>r,

>Caltrop

No, "PC" is a repackaged form of the United States Constitution, The Bill of Rights, and the religious ethics of the western Judeo-Christian tradition.


Message 182d672f0Nn-9887-1363+5a.htm, number 127543, was posted on Thu Jan 26 at 22:43:38
in reply to 473ecd18yqu-9887-921+5a.htm

I suppose using that line of thinking what is packaged as "micro-aggressions" were...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Thu Jan 26, BrandenburgThree wrote
-------------------------------------
>On Thu Jan 26, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>---------------------------------
>>Wasn't "PC" just a repackaged form of doublethink?

>>r,

>>Caltrop

>No, "PC" is a repackaged form of the United States Constitution, The Bill of Rights, and the religious ethics of the western Judeo-Christian tradition.

...a repackaging of "The Beatitudes?"

Odd, one the greatest proponents of "PC" claimed the Constitution was a hopelessly outdated document (though he himself claimed to be a Constitutional law professor), and he had nothing but contempt for Judaism (as evidence parting gifts to Israel) and Christianity (especially those who did cling to their "Bible and their guns.")  

I always felt he had nothing good to say about Judaism and Christianity, and nothing bad to say about Islam.

r,

Caltrop


Message 31bb04f400A-9888-265+05.htm, number 127544, was posted on Fri Jan 27 at 04:25:08
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9886-401-07.htm

Re: 'In West Africa why is the harmattan wind known as 'the doctor'?' . .

wombat


On Wed Jan 25, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today's question for Dr M from Oxford Reference; find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780199211944.001.0001/acref-9780199211944-e-3787

The Harmattan wind keeps popping up and lurking on the edge of my consciousness - for instance, in "The English Patient" just the other day. As far as I can recall (and if I haven't misremembered) I've come across it in travel books set in North Africa, in Ancient History (a whole army lost in the sand), in books about the days of sail (it is a North East trade wind).... Stephen refers to it, in its Eastern area of operation, as "the dread Simoon" and, thanks to the excellent "Guide for the Perplexed" by Anthony Gary Brown and Co, I found that, in its Western range, Jack and Stephen encounter it again in "The Commodore" as the Harmattan.

If I've identified the harmattan correctly, nobody has a good word to say about it. "The doctor"? Huh.


Message 50e5a913p13-9888-553+05.htm, number 127545, was posted on Fri Jan 27 at 09:13:30
in reply to 31bb04f400A-9888-265+05.htm

'The dew-moistened leaves on a Harmattan morning.'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Jan 27, wombat wrote
---------------------------
. .  in books about the days of sail (it is a North East trade wind).... Stephen refers to it, in its Eastern area of operation, as "the dread Simoon" and, thanks to the excellent "Guide for the Perplexed" by Anthony Gary Brown and Co, I found that, in its Western range, Jack and Stephen encounter it again in "The Commodore" as the Harmattan.

Here's what OED has collected:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-01-27 at 11.55.35_1.png
‘ . .  in Sierra Leone, West Africa, these flowers are called Harmattan Lilies and flower almost wild during the season when the winds from the Sahara (Harmattan) blow. I have lived in Sierra Leone and remember the wind - hot, dry and gritty but not the flowers.
This amaryllis has been bursting into flower now for four days. A month ago it was suffering from baving been eaten by a snail, but has recovered....just a few small holes out of sight . . ‘

[www.blipfoto.com/entry/1065168]

‘harmatt n, n.   haramata, the name in the Fante or Twi language of West Africa. According to Norris (1780) ‘a corruption of Aherramantah, compounded of Aherraman to blow and tah tallow, grease, with which the natives rub their skin to prevent their growing dry and rough’; but according to Christaller, (1881), a borrowed foreign word, viz. ‘Spanish harmatan, an Arabic word’. (But no such Arabic word has been found.)
A dry parching land-wind, which blows during December, January, and February, on the coast of Upper Guinea in Africa; it obscures the air with a red dust-fog.
1671   R. Bohun Disc. Wind 195   Of the Harmetans in Guiny.
. . 1845   C. Darwin Jrnl. (ed. 2) i. 5   During those months when the harmattan is known to raise clouds of dust high into the atmosphere.
1906   F. B. Archer Gambia Colony i. 27   This excessive dryness is undoubtedly due to the severe
. . 1963   W. Soyinka Lion & Jewel 22   The dew-moistened leaves on a Harmattan morning.

attrib.
. . 1828   T. Carlyle Goethe in Foreign Rev. 2 94   Whatever belonged to the finer nature of man had withered under the Harmattan breath of Doubt.’


Message 50e5a913p13-9888-553+05.htm, number 127545, was posted on Fri Jan 27 at 09:13:30
in reply to 31bb04f400A-9888-265+05.htm

'The dew-moistened leaves on a Harmattan morning.'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Jan 27, wombat wrote
---------------------------
. .  in books about the days of sail (it is a North East trade wind).... Stephen refers to it, in its Eastern area of operation, as "the dread Simoon" and, thanks to the excellent "Guide for the Perplexed" by Anthony Gary Brown and Co, I found that, in its Western range, Jack and Stephen encounter it again in "The Commodore" as the Harmattan.

Here's what OED has collected:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-01-27 at 11.55.35_1.png
‘ . .  in Sierra Leone, West Africa, these flowers are called Harmattan Lilies and flower almost wild during the season when the winds from the Sahara (Harmattan) blow. I have lived in Sierra Leone and remember the wind - hot, dry and gritty but not the flowers.
This amaryllis has been bursting into flower now for four days. A month ago it was suffering from baving been eaten by a snail, but has recovered....just a few small holes out of sight . . ‘

[www.blipfoto.com/entry/1065168]

‘harmatt n, n.   haramata, the name in the Fante or Twi language of West Africa. According to Norris (1780) ‘a corruption of Aherramantah, compounded of Aherraman to blow and tah tallow, grease, with which the natives rub their skin to prevent their growing dry and rough’; but according to Christaller, (1881), a borrowed foreign word, viz. ‘Spanish harmatan, an Arabic word’. (But no such Arabic word has been found.)
A dry parching land-wind, which blows during December, January, and February, on the coast of Upper Guinea in Africa; it obscures the air with a red dust-fog.
1671   R. Bohun Disc. Wind 195   Of the Harmetans in Guiny.
. . 1845   C. Darwin Jrnl. (ed. 2) i. 5   During those months when the harmattan is known to raise clouds of dust high into the atmosphere.
1906   F. B. Archer Gambia Colony i. 27   This excessive dryness is undoubtedly due to the severe
. . 1963   W. Soyinka Lion & Jewel 22   The dew-moistened leaves on a Harmattan morning.

attrib.
. . 1828   T. Carlyle Goethe in Foreign Rev. 2 94   Whatever belonged to the finer nature of man had withered under the Harmattan breath of Doubt.’


Message 50e5a913p13-9888-560+59.htm, number 127546, was posted on Fri Jan 27 at 09:20:16
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9887-363-90.htm

Seven more suggestions

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/27/v-for-vendetta-fahrenheit-451-trumps-america

Message 50e5a913p13-9888-837-90.htm, number 127547, was posted on Fri Jan 27 at 13:56:41
The best battle scenes ever shot from Apocalypse Now to Hacksaw Ridge

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Phil Hoad: Freshly blessed with six Oscar nominations, Mel Gibson’s new second world war film Hacksaw Ridge doesn’t just raise the bar for combat scenes. – it annihilates it. It may have a gun-shy pacifist as its main character, but the initial 15-minute re-creation of the assault on an Okinawan escarpment is a frenzy of cartwheeling bodies, Boy’s Own satchel charges, bunker demolition and a fetish for physical chastisement that is très Mel: the Passion of GI Joe.

Directors are frequently compared to generals, and war films are among the most logistically complex and demanding things to shoot. Here, key members of the film crew from Hacksaw and five combat classics explain how they stormed the barricades . .

[www.theguardian.com/film/2017/jan/26/the-best-battle-scenes-ever-shot-from-apocalypse-now-to-hacksaw-ridge]


Message 4588233100A-9889-839-07.htm, number 127548, was posted on Sat Jan 28 at 13:59:14
Mad King George's letters.

Whoreson Beast


www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/letters-1700s-penned-britain-s-mad-king-george-published-america-n713561

Message 462af00500A-9889-1123-30.htm, number 127549, was posted on Sat Jan 28 at 18:42:45
Taboo revisited

Max


Having now seen three episodes of Taboo I am still enjoying the series although I am somewhat confused.
I had thought the show was set at an earlier time period but now it appears to be set around the Treaty of Ghent (1814).
Yet the characters refer to President Jefferson, not Madison. We see King George who I guess could be IV not III. But the politics seem off.
Their was a proposal, early on, to create a Native buffer state between the U.S. and Canada. I guess that sorta coulda meant that the lead guys possession of a treaty with the appropriate Indians for possession of Nootka Sound could give him leverage. But not really.
The U.S. Constitution absolutely forbids private treaties not approved by Congress and I can't really picture Georgie allowing anything that didn't include the Royal Kickback.

Then again, the players seem to be acting rationally for Cold War Berlin not the early
19th century. They are gentry screaming depreciations at each other in public. Where's the duel?


Message 50e5a913p13-9890-406+06.htm, number 127550, was posted on Sun Jan 29 at 06:47:16
in reply to 4588233100A-9889-839-07.htm

Second thoughts on George III: online project could alter view of king

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


 photo Screen Shot 2017-01-28 at 18.07.06.png
He is one of the most maligned monarchs in British history, portrayed as dull and overly frugal in his lifetime, labelled the “royal brute” by Thomas Paine and remembered by subsequent generations as the mad king who lost America. But a major project led by the Royal Archives will, it is hoped, lead to a radical reappraisal of George III, one that pitches him as a complex, humane and deeply engaged polymath. The archives have announced details of the Georgian Papers Programme, in which more than 350,000 usually unseen documents are being made available online over the next four years.

On Saturday, the online portal opens for business, allowing anyone, whether an academic or someone with only a vague interest, to go through documents including intimate letters between the king and his wife, Charlotte, household bills, essays, notes about the war in America and menus for grand occasions.

Irvine said there was nothing like viewing source material. “Seeing original documents is utterly compelling,” he said. “You can feel the passion, personality, worries and triumphs of individuals who have shaped major events. It can change your perspective on history.” One of the most fascinating is his mental illness, which would manifest itself in breakdowns where he was confined to Windsor Castle or Kew, sometimes in a straitjacket. Modern opinion is that it was a form of bipolar disorder . .

George’s intelligence and love of science is reflected in detailed drawings and calculations he made for the transit of Venus on 23 June 1769, an event he witnessed from his specially commissioned observatory in Richmond Park.
 photo Screen Shot 2017-01-28 at 18.16.03.png
George III took his job very seriously, well tutored by his father, Frederick, who would have been king had he not died, aged 44, in 1751 . . One document is a manual of kingship written by Frederick for 10-year-old George in which he writes: “Convince this nation that you are not only an Englishman born and bred, but that you are also this by inclination.” That was important and George was the first Hanoverian British king not to have German as his first language . . Frederick also warned his son to “employ all your hands, all your power, to live with economy”, something he did all his life, preferring a frugal existence on his country estates to the expense and pomp of court life. There were many huge events during George’s reign.

He was the last British king of America and the first of Australia and he took a keen interest in the exploration of the time including the voyages of Captain Cook to the south seas. One paper reveals secret instructions to Cook that he should treat any locals he finds with respect and “endeavour by all proper means to cultivate a friendship with them, making them presents of such trinkets as you may have onboard … showing them every kindness, civility and regard” . .
………..
‘The project will include the digitisation of all the historic manuscripts from the Georgian period, totalling more than 350,000 pages, of which only about 15% have previously been published. While the vast majority of the collection comprises papers from George III, papers from Kings George I, George II, George IV and William IV will also be made available.

By 2020 the digitized materials documenting the Hanoverian Dynasty, dating from 1714-1837, will offer an online archive and library available to all—academics and the public. The digitization and cataloguing of these documents will allow them to be searched and analysed in creative and flexible ways. The Georgian Paper Programme is of particular value to universities, schools, academics and authors in the UK, the United States, Europe, the Commonwealth and around the world.’

[georgianpapersprogramme.com/]
[georgianpapersprogramme.com/2017/01/23/america-is-lost/]
[www.itv.com/news/2017-01-28/george-iiis-draft-abdication-letter-to-be-made-public/]
……….
George III – The Genius of the Mad King is on BBC2 on Monday Jan 28 at 9pm.



Message 6329a73f00A-9890-1140+1d.htm, number 127551, was posted on Sun Jan 29 at 19:00:48
in reply to 462af00500A-9889-1123-30.htm

Re: Taboo revisited

Not-th-Mick


On Sat Jan 28, Max wrote
------------------------
>Having now seen three episodes of Taboo I am still enjoying the series although I am somewhat confused.
>I had thought the show was set at an earlier time period but now it appears to be set around the Treaty of Ghent (1814).
>Yet the characters refer to President Jefferson, not Madison. We see King George who I guess could be IV not III. But the politics seem off.
>Their was a proposal, early on, to create a Native buffer state between the U.S. and Canada. I guess that sorta coulda meant that the lead guys possession of a treaty with the appropriate Indians for possession of Nootka Sound could give him leverage. But not really.
>The U.S. Constitution absolutely forbids private treaties not approved by Congress and I can't really picture Georgie allowing anything that didn't include the Royal Kickback.

>Then again, the players seem to be acting rationally for Cold War Berlin not the early
>19th century. They are gentry screaming depreciations at each other in public. Where's the duel?

Max -

I had the same thought on President Jefferson (should have been Madison) since it is 1814.  The monarch "George" in the series is George III's son acting as regent during his father final years of madness.  He will become George IV upon his father's death in 1820.

Not-the-Mick


Message 182d672f0Nn-9891-752+56.htm, number 127552, was posted on Mon Jan 30 at 12:31:36
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9888-560+59.htm

Re: Seven more suggestions

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


To my knowledge, the fellow speaking is a Democrat:

https://youtu.be/4384XQR44yM?t=20

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9891-755+56.htm, number 127552, was edited on Mon Jan 30 at 12:35:36
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9891-752+56.htm

Oh the irony, oh the irony!

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


To my knowledge, the fellow speaking is a Democrat:

youtu.be/4384XQR44yM?t=20

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Jan 30 by the author ]


Message 182d672f0Nn-9891-811+56.htm, number 127552, was edited on Mon Jan 30 at 13:31:23
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9891-755+56.htm

Oh the irony, oh the irony, oh...the dystopia

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


To my knowledge, the fellow speaking is a Democrat:

youtu.be/4384XQR44yM?t=20

www.city-journal.org/html/connoisseur-chaos-14954.html

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Jan 30 by the author ]


Message 61767b6eUWK-9891-874+1c.htm, number 127553, was posted on Mon Jan 30 at 14:34:26
in reply to 6329a73f00A-9890-1140+1d.htm

Re^2: Taboo revisited

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Max,

I listened again and when he is talking to the "Dr/Flagmaker" he says he wants to get a message to the President and to Thomas Jefferson.

CS


On Sun Jan 29, Not-th-Mick wrote
--------------------------------
>On Sat Jan 28, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Having now seen three episodes of Taboo I am still enjoying the series although I am somewhat confused.
>>I had thought the show was set at an earlier time period but now it appears to be set around the Treaty of Ghent (1814).
>>Yet the characters refer to President Jefferson, not Madison. We see King George who I guess could be IV not III. But the politics seem off.
>>Their was a proposal, early on, to create a Native buffer state between the U.S. and Canada. I guess that sorta coulda meant that the lead guys possession of a treaty with the appropriate Indians for possession of Nootka Sound could give him leverage. But not really.
>>The U.S. Constitution absolutely forbids private treaties not approved by Congress and I can't really picture Georgie allowing anything that didn't include the Royal Kickback.

>>Then again, the players seem to be acting rationally for Cold War Berlin not the early
>>19th century. They are gentry screaming depreciations at each other in public. Where's the duel?

>Max -

>I had the same thought on President Jefferson (should have been Madison) since it is 1814.  The monarch "George" in the series is George III's son acting as regent during his father final years of madness.  He will become George IV upon his father's death in 1820.

>Not-the-Mick


Message 49e5813fcQc-9891-1385-90.htm, number 127554, was posted on Mon Jan 30 at 23:05:22
How were the gun drills run?

mike barksdale
soprismb@live.com


I have recently started reading the Patrick O'Brian's canon. I am two books in and already I absolutely love them. I have been able to follow most of the story, lingo, history and medicine. One thing continues to befuddle me and answering it was exclusively why I joined you fine people. I'm a land lubber about as far from an ocean as you can get (Aspen, Colorado).

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME, SPECIFICALLY, HOW THE JACK PRACTICES GUN DRILLS? 

EXAMPLE: In the book, "Master and Commander", Jack Aubrey has his gun crew try and beat something like eight minutes. How do they shoot over that time? Did they all shoot from the larboard side, and then the captain would come about on the wind and then they would fire as she makes on the starboard side? I read it that one circuit of practice was actually firing four different broadsides. Did that mean that they would go port, starboard, port and starboard? 

I am completely confused on this one part, and all five books I own that explain the Aubrey/Maturin books don't offer any insights into gunnery practice. Can one of you please help me?


Message 50e5a913p13-9892-418+55.htm, number 127555, was posted on Tue Jan 31 at 06:57:57
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9891-811+56.htm

Re: . . oh...the dystopia

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The various ‘-topias’ (u- = nowhere, eu- =good, dys- = bad and caco- - worst) are all imaginary so they should not be used to describe actual or historical societies. Better to stick to words like la la land, paradise, shangri la, normality, real life, bliss, heaven, limbo, purgatory, chaos, hell, SNAFU, et cetera . .

Message 50e5a913p13-9892-471+55.htm, number 127555, was edited on Tue Jan 31 at 07:51:04
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9892-418+55.htm

Re: . . oh...the dystopia

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The various political ‘-topias’ (u- = nowhere, eco-, eu- = good, dys- = bad and caco- - worst) are all imaginary so they should not be used to describe actual or historical societies. Better to stick to words like la la land, paradise, shangri la, normality, real life, business-as-usual, laissez faire, bliss, heaven, limbo, purgatory, chaos, hell, SNAFU, et cetera . .

[ This message was edited on Tue Jan 31 by the author ]


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9892-699+04.htm, number 127556, was posted on Tue Jan 31 at 11:39:15
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9890-406+06.htm

Re: Second thoughts on George III: online project could alter view of king

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I question why anyone would hope for a 'radical' reappraisal. Sounds like hyperbole to me.

On Sun Jan 29, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
> photo Screen Shot 2017-01-28 at 18.07.06.png
>He is one of the most maligned monarchs in British history, portrayed as dull and overly frugal in his lifetime, labelled the “royal brute” by Thomas Paine and remembered by subsequent generations as the mad king who lost America. But a major project led by the Royal Archives will, it is hoped, lead to a radical reappraisal of George III, one that pitches him as a complex, humane and deeply engaged polymath. The archives have announced details of the Georgian Papers Programme, in which more than 350,000 usually unseen documents are being made available online over the next four years.

>On Saturday, the online portal opens for business, allowing anyone, whether an academic or someone with only a vague interest, to go through documents including intimate letters between the king and his wife, Charlotte, household bills, essays, notes about the war in America and menus for grand occasions.

>Irvine said there was nothing like viewing source material. “Seeing original documents is utterly compelling,” he said. “You can feel the passion, personality, worries and triumphs of individuals who have shaped major events. It can change your perspective on history.” One of the most fascinating is his mental illness, which would manifest itself in breakdowns where he was confined to Windsor Castle or Kew, sometimes in a straitjacket. Modern opinion is that it was a form of bipolar disorder . .

>George’s intelligence and love of science is reflected in detailed drawings and calculations he made for the transit of Venus on 23 June 1769, an event he witnessed from his specially commissioned observatory in Richmond Park.
> photo Screen Shot 2017-01-28 at 18.16.03.png
>George III took his job very seriously, well tutored by his father, Frederick, who would have been king had he not died, aged 44, in 1751 . . One document is a manual of kingship written by Frederick for 10-year-old George in which he writes: “Convince this nation that you are not only an Englishman born and bred, but that you are also this by inclination.” That was important and George was the first Hanoverian British king not to have German as his first language . . Frederick also warned his son to “employ all your hands, all your power, to live with economy”, something he did all his life, preferring a frugal existence on his country estates to the expense and pomp of court life. There were many huge events during George’s reign.

>He was the last British king of America and the first of Australia and he took a keen interest in the exploration of the time including the voyages of Captain Cook to the south seas. One paper reveals secret instructions to Cook that he should treat any locals he finds with respect and “endeavour by all proper means to cultivate a friendship with them, making them presents of such trinkets as you may have onboard … showing them every kindness, civility and regard” . .
>………..
>‘The project will include the digitisation of all the historic manuscripts from the Georgian period, totalling more than 350,000 pages, of which only about 15% have previously been published. While the vast majority of the collection comprises papers from George III, papers from Kings George I, George II, George IV and William IV will also be made available.

>By 2020 the digitized materials documenting the Hanoverian Dynasty, dating from 1714-1837, will offer an online archive and library available to all—academics and the public. The digitization and cataloguing of these documents will allow them to be searched and analysed in creative and flexible ways. The Georgian Paper Programme is of particular value to universities, schools, academics and authors in the UK, the United States, Europe, the Commonwealth and around the world.’

>[georgianpapersprogramme.com/]
>[georgianpapersprogramme.com/2017/01/23/america-is-lost/]
>[www.itv.com/news/2017-01-28/george-iiis-draft-abdication-letter-to-be-made-public/]
>……….
>George III – The Genius of the Mad King is on BBC2 on Monday Jan 28 at 9pm.
>
>
>


Message 182d672f0Nn-9892-786+55.htm, number 127557, was posted on Tue Jan 31 at 13:05:51
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9892-471+55.htm

Ah, so you're saying...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Tue Jan 31, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>The various political ‘-topias’ (u- = nowhere, eco-, eu- = good, dys- = bad and caco- - worst) are all imaginary so they should not be used to describe actual or historical societies. Better to stick to words like la la land, paradise, shangri la, normality, real life, business-as-usual, laissez faire, bliss, heaven, limbo, purgatory, chaos, hell, SNAFU, et cetera . .

..."dystopia" should NOT be linked with the name, Soros, because his actions, and the results they precipitate, are dysfunctional and real.

We've made great progress here.

r,

Caltrop


Message 46d30c5600A-9892-830+1b.htm, number 127558, was posted on Tue Jan 31 at 13:49:42
in reply to 61767b6eUWK-9891-874+1c.htm

Re^3: Now that makes sense!

Max



Now that makes sense! Thanks.
This is a letter from madison to Jefferson discussing the treaty

www.loc.gov/resource/mjm.17_0202_0204/?sp=1&st=text





On Mon Jan 30, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>Max,

>I listened again and when he is talking to the "Dr/Flagmaker" he says he wants to get a message to the President and to Thomas Jefferson.

>CS
>
>
>On Sun Jan 29, Not-th-Mick wrote
>--------------------------------
>>On Sat Jan 28, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>Having now seen three episodes of Taboo I am still enjoying the series although I am somewhat confused.
>>>I had thought the show was set at an earlier time period but now it appears to be set around the Treaty of Ghent (1814).
>>>Yet the characters refer to President Jefferson, not Madison. We see King George who I guess could be IV not III. But the politics seem off.
>>>Their was a proposal, early on, to create a Native buffer state between the U.S. and Canada. I guess that sorta coulda meant that the lead guys possession of a treaty with the appropriate Indians for possession of Nootka Sound could give him leverage. But not really.
>>>The U.S. Constitution absolutely forbids private treaties not approved by Congress and I can't really picture Georgie allowing anything that didn't include the Royal Kickback.

>>>Then again, the players seem to be acting rationally for Cold War Berlin not the early
>>>19th century. They are gentry screaming depreciations at each other in public. Where's the duel?

>>Max -

>>I had the same thought on President Jefferson (should have been Madison) since it is 1814.  The monarch "George" in the series is George III's son acting as regent during his father final years of madness.  He will become George IV upon his father's death in 1820.

>>Not-the-Mick


Message 50e5a913p13-9892-837+55.htm, number 127559, was posted on Tue Jan 31 at 13:57:00
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9892-786+55.htm

Re: Ah, so you're saying...

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Jan 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>On Tue Jan 31, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>The various political ‘-topias’ (u- = nowhere, eco-, eu- = good, dys- = bad and caco- - worst) are all imaginary so they should not be used to describe actual or historical societies. Better to stick to words like la la land, paradise, shangri la, normality, real life, business-as-usual, laissez faire, bliss, heaven, limbo, purgatory, chaos, hell, SNAFU, et cetera . .

>..."dystopia" should NOT be linked with the name, Soros, because his actions, and the results they precipitate, are dysfunctional and real.

Apply it if you choose but be aware that you are using the word in the wrong context and may be misunderstood or disregarded as an ignorant person. If you don't like Soros, better to say so plainly and spell out what it is that you dislike. 'Dystopia' is a useful word for a particular kind of fiction; there is no merit in applying it more generally to actuality.


Message 47b879ac00A-9892-1000+59.htm, number 127560, was posted on Tue Jan 31 at 16:41:29
in reply to 49e5813fcQc-9891-1385-90.htm

Re: How were the gun drills run?

Don Seltzer


Here is a typical scenario for a live gun exercise:

The cutter is dispatched with a float target made up of a few casks.  At perhaps a half mile away it is released.

The ship makes a slow striaght approach at perhaps 2 knots (200 feet per minute) on a course that will pass the target at about one cable distance off the starboard beam.

The starboard guns are loaded and trained forward about 45°.  When they bear on the target the gun captain fires and the clock begins.

The guns are reloaded, re-aimed, and fired a second time in about three minutes.  The ship has traveled 600 feet in this time and the target is nearly on the starboard beam.

Again the guns are reloaded, re-aimed, and fired for the third time.  Now the target is somewhat aft, with six minutes expired from the moment of the first gun.  If the crews were somewhat quicker, they might even get in a fourth broadside before the target was so far aft that the guns could not be trained around enough.

For an extended exercise, the ship could then be turned around to make a similar slow pass of the target on the larboard side.

On Mon Jan 30, mike barksdale wrote
-----------------------------------

>CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME, SPECIFICALLY, HOW THE JACK PRACTICES GUN DRILLS? 

>EXAMPLE: In the book, "Master and Commander", Jack Aubrey has his gun crew try and beat something like eight minutes. How do they shoot over that time? Did they all shoot from the larboard side, and then the captain would come about on the wind and then they would fire as she makes on the starboard side? I read it that one circuit of practice was actually firing four different broadsides. Did that mean that they would go port, starboard, port and starboard? 

>I am completely confused on this one part, and all five books I own that explain the Aubrey/Maturin books don't offer any insights into gunnery practice. Can one of you please help me?


Message 182d672f0Nn-9893-1067+54.htm, number 127561, was posted on Wed Feb 1 at 17:47:33
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9892-837+55.htm

The prince of darkness and dysfunctional intent

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Tue Jan 31, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Tue Jan 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>---------------------------------
>>On Tue Jan 31, Chrístõ wrote
>>----------------------------
>>>The various political ‘-topias’ (u- = nowhere, eco-, eu- = good, dys- = bad and caco- - worst) are all imaginary so they should not be used to describe actual or historical societies. Better to stick to words like la la land, paradise, shangri la, normality, real life, business-as-usual, laissez faire, bliss, heaven, limbo, purgatory, chaos, hell, SNAFU, et cetera . .

>>..."dystopia" should NOT be linked with the name, Soros, because his actions, and the results they precipitate, are dysfunctional and real.

>Apply it if you choose but be aware that you are using the word in the wrong context and may be misunderstood or disregarded as an ignorant person. If you don't like Soros, better to say so plainly and spell out what it is that you dislike. 'Dystopia' is a useful word for a particular kind of fiction; there is no merit in applying it more generally to actuality.

I didn't exactly use that word.  

It was in the title of the link.  Can I describe him as the "prince of darkness and dysfunctional intent?"

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9893-1080+54.htm, number 127561, was edited on Wed Feb 1 at 18:00:38
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9893-1067+54.htm

The prince of darkness and dysfunctional intent

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Tue Jan 31, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Tue Jan 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>---------------------------------
>>On Tue Jan 31, Chrístõ wrote
>>----------------------------
>>>The various political ‘-topias’ (u- = nowhere, eco-, eu- = good, dys- = bad and caco- - worst) are all imaginary so they should not be used to describe actual or historical societies. Better to stick to words like la la land, paradise, shangri la, normality, real life, business-as-usual, laissez faire, bliss, heaven, limbo, purgatory, chaos, hell, SNAFU, et cetera . .

>>..."dystopia" should NOT be linked with the name, Soros, because his actions, and the results they precipitate, are dysfunctional and real.

>Apply it if you choose but be aware that you are using the word in the wrong context and may be misunderstood or disregarded as an ignorant person. If you don't like Soros, better to say so plainly and spell out what it is that you dislike. 'Dystopia' is a useful word for a particular kind of fiction; there is no merit in applying it more generally to actuality.

I didn't exactly use that word with Soros. It was in the title of the Soros link. 

You used it first in conjunction with President Trump. Did you mean it was a particular type of fiction to conflate dystopia with President Trump. I would agree. So did YOU lead me into error?  Were YOU using the word incorrectly? 

Can I describe Soros as the "prince of darkness and dysfunctional intent" instead?

It seems by your interpretations only American Republicans can properly have their names associated with "dystopia?"

And as you've explained, that would be a fiction.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Feb 1 by the author ]


Message ae108ab8UWK-9895-30+52.htm, number 127562, was posted on Fri Feb 3 at 00:29:54
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9893-1080+54.htm

Fan mail

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


The exchange below is Jesuitical poetry.

For those so inclined.



On Wed Feb 1, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
>On Tue Jan 31, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>On Tue Jan 31, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>>---------------------------------
>>>On Tue Jan 31, Chrístõ wrote
>>>----------------------------
>>>>The various political ‘-topias’ (u- = nowhere, eco-, eu- = good, dys- = bad and caco- - worst) are all imaginary so they should not be used to describe actual or historical societies. Better to stick to words like la la land, paradise, shangri la, normality, real life, business-as-usual, laissez faire, bliss, heaven, limbo, purgatory, chaos, hell, SNAFU, et cetera . .

>>>..."dystopia" should NOT be linked with the name, Soros, because his actions, and the results they precipitate, are dysfunctional and real.

>>Apply it if you choose but be aware that you are using the word in the wrong context and may be misunderstood or disregarded as an ignorant person. If you don't like Soros, better to say so plainly and spell out what it is that you dislike. 'Dystopia' is a useful word for a particular kind of fiction; there is no merit in applying it more generally to actuality.

>I didn't exactly use that word with Soros. It was in the title of the Soros link. 

>You used it first in conjunction with President Trump. Did you mean it was a particular type of fiction to conflate dystopia with President Trump. I would agree. So did YOU lead me into error?  Were YOU using the word incorrectly? 

>Can I describe Soros as the "prince of darkness and dysfunctional intent" instead?

>It seems by your interpretations only American Republicans can properly have their names associated with "dystopia?"

>And as you've explained, that would be a fiction.

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9895-546+52.htm, number 127563, was posted on Fri Feb 3 at 09:05:56
in reply to ae108ab8UWK-9895-30+52.htm

Re: Fan mail

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Fri Feb 3, Culling Simples wrote
-----------------------------------
>The exchange below is Jesuitical poetry.

>For those so inclined.


Perhaps, but one of the parties, at least, has pronounced Brownist/Covenenter/Lutheran origins.

r,

Caltrop


Message 4588233100A-9895-756-07.htm, number 127564, was posted on Fri Feb 3 at 12:35:44
Imagine where scientist found the lost continent of "Mauritia"?

Whoreson Beast


www.cnn.com/2017/02/03/world/lost-continent-mauritius-trnd/index.html

Message 46d311ea00A-9895-1107+52.htm, number 127565, was posted on Fri Feb 3 at 18:26:56
in reply to ae108ab8UWK-9895-30+52.htm

Re: Jesuitical poetry, For those so inclined

Max


Jesuitical poetry, For those so inclined:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTxuSVdhwX0




Message 182d672f0Nn-9896-539+51.htm, number 127566, was posted on Sat Feb 4 at 08:59:35
in reply to ae108ab8UWK-9895-30+52.htm

Re: Fan mail

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Looking for examples I found Kipling's "The Female of the Species" listed as Jesuitical poetry.

"And She knows, because She warns him, and Her instincts never fail,
That the Female of Her Species is more deadly than the Male."

Go figure.  

I think Martin Luther and Henry VIII were on to something.

r,

Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-9896-694+51.htm, number 127567, was posted on Sat Feb 4 at 11:34:40
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9895-546+52.htm

Who cast the first stool?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Feb 3, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
. . one of the parties, at least, has pronounced Brownist/Covenenter/Lutheran origins.
......
I know nothing of the Brownists and little of Luther, whose 500th anniversary falls this year. I am a bit familiar with Covenanters, a fractious bunch, typified by ‘the Widow Geddes’:
………...

‘Geddes, Jenny (fl. 1637), supposed religious activist, is traditionally credited with having begun the demonstrations against Charles I's new Scottish prayer book when it was used for the first time in St Giles's, Edinburgh, on 23 July 1637. Her parentage is unknown, and indeed it is not entirely certain that she existed at all. There is no doubt that the riot in St Giles's was started by women, and a near-contemporary anonymous satire mentions a woman who ‘did cast a stoole’ at the dean of St Giles's, James Hannay, as he read from the new book.

. . Geddes's ‘immortality’ evidently lay in her being alleged to have been the first to resort to violence in the events that led to Britain's civil wars* . . (her fame) survived in popular tradition, as is shown by The History of the Most Famous and Most Renowned Janny Geddes (1730s?), which indicates that ‘a scolding woman mad’ was known as ‘a Janny Geddes’:

So—when a scolding woman mad is,
She's called, e're since, A JANNY GEDDES.

(Lothian, 25)

. . Jenny was used as a generic name for Scottish women, the equivalent of Jock for men, and a satirical Scottish ‘litany’ of about 1640 asks for deliverance:

From Gutter Jennie, pulpit Jockie,
From all such head-countrolling tayles

(Maidment, 57)

It may be that the generic Gutter Jenny evolved into the heroic Jenny Geddes to create a symbolic individual commemorating the major role played by women demonstrators in the early months of the covenanting movement.’ (DNB)
………...
So I have no difficulty imagining the bold Capt’n ancestors as one: ‘The National Covenant was signed at Edinburgh on 28 Feb. 1638 for the defence of Presbyterianism against the Episcopal system that had been introduced by James I and Charles I . . ’

* First Bishop’s War; Second Bishop’s War; Parliament summoned tp raise taxes to pay off the victorious and occupying Scottish army; the Wars of the Three Kingdoms (England, Scotland and Ireland); Execution of Charles I; English Republic; Restoration; Glorious Revolution of 1689; etc. etc. A whole lot of history in a short time and all begun by 'yan wee wifie'.


Message 182d672f0Nn-9897-9+51.htm, number 127568, was posted on Sun Feb 5 at 00:08:41
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9896-694+51.htm

The Battle of Auldearn and Parsing the Strands

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


I am most directly related to the Covenenter clan, MacLennan, the Bannermen of Kintail, who carried and defended the colors of clan MacKenzie.  (The wives of my grandmother's line are alternating MacKenzies and MacLeods interwoven like a three strand hawser for about a century.)

Colors were how you communicated in 1645, supplemented occasionally by drums and pipes.  If your colors advanced, you advanced, if they retreated you retreated. If the colors held you held.  Bannermen knew that.  The order to retreat from General Hurry did not get to the MacLennans.  Even when the Gordon cavalry had them surrounded, they would not surrender, and so they died to a man.  

I can only say I must be descended from a MacLennan who was to young to fight.  Roderick MacLennan the chieftain died at Auldearn and the MacLennans did not come together as a clan until more than three centuries later. The clan remnants scattered to the four winds and were about as vagabondish as the MacGregors.

The trouble, beyond not getting the order to retreat, and fighting on when there was no more reason to fight, is the foolish nature of the top and bottom of both sides' chain of command.  The Coventers were fighting Scottish Royalists, primarily Catholics, who were fighting FOR the Roundhead dominated English Parliament to keep Scotland under English control. Though religion was very much at the heart of that 17th Century battle, the way things line up had nothing to do with religion. Both sides had as confusing a hierarchy as you can hope to see.

The Covenenters AND the Roundheads, aka Brownists/Separatists'Puritans, would have gotten along grandly at a cocktail party (or maybe church social), but apparently history had other things in mind for them in the mid-17th Century.

r,

Caltrop


Message 4d63b8e100A-9897-551-07.htm, number 127569, was posted on Sun Feb 5 at 09:10:54
Folly and Plush

Mike Wells


Could someone kindly remind me in which of the Aubrey/Maturin books is the joke about Folly and Plush (two villages in Dorset)? Thanks.

Message 4ca756ac8YV-9897-647+07.htm, number 127570, was posted on Sun Feb 5 at 10:46:46
in reply to 4d63b8e100A-9897-551-07.htm

Re: Folly and Plush

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


In "The Yellow Admiral"  there is mention of a 'mouldy little school between Folly and Plush" that George is attending.

It is a wonder that googling "Folly and Plush, Patrick O'Brian" gets you New Orleans, whereas "Folly and Plush, Aubrey and Maturin" takes you straight away to the books....

On Sun Feb 5, Mike Wells wrote
------------------------------
>Could someone kindly remind me in which of the Aubrey/Maturin books is the joke about Folly and Plush (two villages in Dorset)? Thanks.


Message d43867a100A-9897-690+07.htm, number 127571, was posted on Sun Feb 5 at 11:30:11
in reply to 4d63b8e100A-9897-551-07.htm

Re: Folly and Plush

Guest


On Sun Feb 5, Mike Wells wrote
------------------------------
>Could someone kindly remind me in which of the Aubrey/Maturin books is the joke about Folly and Plush (two villages in Dorset)? Thanks.

From "The Yellow Admiral":

Harding came in, bringing the sun with him. ‘Forgive me for bursting upon you like this, sir, but I have had such a pleasing letter – my wife has just inherited a little estate in Dorset from a distant cousin: it lies between Plush and Folly. I am to be squire of Plush!’

‘Give you joy with all my heart,’ said Jack, shaking his hand. ‘We shall be neighbours – my son is at school there, Mr Randall’s school. How happy my wife and I will be. But I am afraid that I must warn you that Plush often leads to Folly.’

‘Why, yes, sir…’ began Harding, somewhat staggered: but then he caught the nature of Captain Aubrey’s witticism (perhaps the best thing Jack had ever said) which depended on a knowledge of the fact that when grog was served out the ordinary members of each mess of seamen received slightly less than the regular measure: by ancient custom, the amount of grog left, which was called plush, belonged to the cook of the mess; and unless he had a good head for rum, this often led him to commit a foolish action.

Jack’s gravity had not lasted quite as long as Harding’s, and his whole-hearted mirth continued for some moments after Harding had recovered himself: but he received the wardroom’s invitation with a decent complaisance.

Via www.singularityfps.com/pob/


Message 50e5a913p13-9897-794+50.htm, number 127572, was posted on Sun Feb 5 at 13:14:17
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9887-363-90.htm

A very British dystopia

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


SS-GB is coming to British TV very soon as a 5-part serial.


Message 50e5a913p13-9897-803+07.htm, number 127573, was posted on Sun Feb 5 at 13:23:11
in reply to d43867a100A-9897-690+07.htm

Re^2: Folly and Plush

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Feb 5, Guest wrote
-------------------------
. . ‘Why, yes, sir…’ began Harding, somewhat staggered: but then he caught the nature of Captain Aubrey’s witticism (perhaps the best thing Jack had ever said) which depended on a knowledge of the fact that when grog was served out the ordinary members of each mess of seamen received slightly less than the regular measure: by ancient custom, the amount of grog left, which was called plush, belonged to the cook of the mess; and unless he had a good head for rum, this often led him to commit a foolish action.

>Via www.singularityfps.com/pob/

Many thanks for the info and the link which I didn't know about.

OED has:

‘plush, n.2 Probably short for overplush or surplush, respectively variants of overplus n. and surplus n. Navy slang. Now chiefly hist. A surplus, esp. that remaining after the rationing of grog or gravy amongst a ship's crew.
1822 Blackwood's Edinb. Mag. Jan. 20/1, I won't be sung out of my grog by ere a one. I tells thee once more, that I'se only the plush, and that I be's entitled to, an't I now?
. . 1976 P. Kemp Oxf. Compan. Ships & Sea 654/1 Official instructions were that any plush after the daily issue was to be poured into the scuppers and allowed to run overboard to prevent anyone getting more than his ration, but seamen were adept at saving such waste.
1977 P. O'Brian Mauritius Command ix. 241 Only half the grog will be served out this spell: and no plush allowed.’


Message 50e5a913p13-9897-820+51.htm, number 127574, was posted on Sun Feb 5 at 13:39:51
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9897-9+51.htm

Re: The Battle of Auldearn . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Feb 5, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
. . The Covenenters AND the Roundheads, aka Brownists/Separatists'Puritans, would have gotten along grandly at a cocktail party (or maybe church social), but apparently history had other things in mind for them in the mid-17th Century.
.........
Thanks for this reminder that the Scottish Civil War was distinct to the English one and was primarily about religion. Its events are completely forgotten in England and in any case are completely incomprehensible to today's post-Christian English pagans. The persecution of the covenanters ended with the accession of William of Orange as King William II of Scotland in 1688 and the acceptance of Scottish Presbyterianism by the Act of Settlement 1690.

Message 50e5a913p13-9897-825+51.htm, number 127574, was edited on Sun Feb 5 at 13:44:37
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9897-820+51.htm

Re: The Battle of Auldearn . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Feb 5, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
. . The Covenenters AND the Roundheads, aka Brownists/Separatists'Puritans, would have gotten along grandly at a cocktail party (or maybe church social), but apparently history had other things in mind for them in the mid-17th Century.
.........

Thanks for this reminder that the Scottish Civil War was distinct to the English one and was primarily about religion. Its events are completely forgotten in England and in any case are completely incomprehensible to today's post-Christian English pagans. The persecution of the covenanters ended with the accession of William of Orange as King William II of Scotland in 1688 and the acceptance of Scottish Presbyterianism by the Act of Settlement 1690.

[ This message was edited on Sun Feb 5 by the author ]


Message 524701a600A-9897-1032+07.htm, number 127575, was posted on Sun Feb 5 at 17:13:20
in reply to d43867a100A-9897-690+07.htm

Re^2: Folly and Plush

Guest


Thanks, that's brilliant.
i was just in Dorset and took a photo of the signpost for Folly and Plush, wanted to know which book to tuck it into.
Mike

On Sun Feb 5, Guest wrote
-------------------------
>On Sun Feb 5, Mike Wells wrote
>------------------------------
>>Could someone kindly remind me in which of the Aubrey/Maturin books is the joke about Folly and Plush (two villages in Dorset)? Thanks.

>From "The Yellow Admiral":

>Harding came in, bringing the sun with him. ‘Forgive me for bursting upon you like this, sir, but I have had such a pleasing letter – my wife has just inherited a little estate in Dorset from a distant cousin: it lies between Plush and Folly. I am to be squire of Plush!’

>‘Give you joy with all my heart,’ said Jack, shaking his hand. ‘We shall be neighbours – my son is at school there, Mr Randall’s school. How happy my wife and I will be. But I am afraid that I must warn you that Plush often leads to Folly.’

>‘Why, yes, sir…’ began Harding, somewhat staggered: but then he caught the nature of Captain Aubrey’s witticism (perhaps the best thing Jack had ever said) which depended on a knowledge of the fact that when grog was served out the ordinary members of each mess of seamen received slightly less than the regular measure: by ancient custom, the amount of grog left, which was called plush, belonged to the cook of the mess; and unless he had a good head for rum, this often led him to commit a foolish action.

>Jack’s gravity had not lasted quite as long as Harding’s, and his whole-hearted mirth continued for some moments after Harding had recovered himself: but he received the wardroom’s invitation with a decent complaisance.

>Via www.singularityfps.com/pob/


Message 4747fb3e8HW-9898-544+53.htm, number 127576, was posted on Mon Feb 6 at 09:05:18
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9892-1000+59.htm

Re^2: How were the gun drills run?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


What Don says is correct (and more detailed than I could have given) but I think misses the point of Mr Barksdale's question.  I don't recall the exact scene he's reading, but in the canon speed of gunnery is usually measured as the time between two broadsides.  That is, the crew approach the target, fire at it, and then set about reloading as the clock starts.  When they're ready to fire again, that's the time between broadsides.

Eight minutes between broadsides is perfectly abysmal—half that time would still be worse than could be expected of a well-trained crew—so I'm guessing this is Jack's first practice with a new and largely untrained crew and that it represents the gap between the first shot of the first round and the last shot of the second.  One hopes that the very slowest gun crew had a bad time dropping things, misplacing equipment and having to do over, and that the rest of the crew averaged something closer to four or five minutes, Jack saying "oh dear, oh dear..." to himself the meanwhile.

Jack, as you know by now, was a great believer in gunnery and was willing to spend great amounts of his own money for the powder and shot required in order to get his crew much, much faster.  IIRC, two minutes between rounds was respectable but Jack wasn't satisfied until his crews got under that.  One gets the impression that Jack was in the minority, though, and that many captains placed rapid, accurate gunnery further down in their individual priorities, either from conviction or from lack of funds.

But eight minutes is so very far below what must be regarded as a poor showing that I wonder whether the text didn't make it clear that it's supposed to be the time for the four broadsides Don describes, that is, two minutes and forty seconds between rounds.

On Tue Jan 31, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>Here is a typical scenario for a live gun exercise:

>The cutter is dispatched with a float target made up of a few casks.  At perhaps a half mile away it is released.

>The ship makes a slow striaght approach at perhaps 2 knots (200 feet per minute) on a course that will pass the target at about one cable distance off the starboard beam.

>The starboard guns are loaded and trained forward about 45°.  When they bear on the target the gun captain fires and the clock begins.

>The guns are reloaded, re-aimed, and fired a second time in about three minutes.  The ship has traveled 600 feet in this time and the target is nearly on the starboard beam.

>Again the guns are reloaded, re-aimed, and fired for the third time.  Now the target is somewhat aft, with six minutes expired from the moment of the first gun.  If the crews were somewhat quicker, they might even get in a fourth broadside before the target was so far aft that the guns could not be trained around enough.

>For an extended exercise, the ship could then be turned around to make a similar slow pass of the target on the larboard side.

>On Mon Jan 30, mike barksdale wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME, SPECIFICALLY, HOW THE JACK PRACTICES GUN DRILLS? 

>>EXAMPLE: In the book, "Master and Commander", Jack Aubrey has his gun crew try and beat something like eight minutes. How do they shoot over that time? Did they all shoot from the larboard side, and then the captain would come about on the wind and then they would fire as she makes on the starboard side? I read it that one circuit of practice was actually firing four different broadsides. Did that mean that they would go port, starboard, port and starboard? 

>>I am completely confused on this one part, and all five books I own that explain the Aubrey/Maturin books don't offer any insights into gunnery practice. Can one of you please help me?


Message 182d672f0Nn-9898-625+50.htm, number 127568, was edited on Mon Feb 6 at 10:24:57
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9897-9+51.htm

The Battle of Auldearn and Parsing the Strands

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


I am most directly related to the Scottish Covenenters, through the Clan MacLennan, the "Bannermen of Kintail," who carried and defended the colors of clan MacKenzie.  (The wives of my grandmother's line are alternating MacKenzies and MacLeods interwoven like a three strand hawser for about a century.)

Colors were how you communicated in 1645, supplemented occasionally by drums and pipes.  If your colors advanced, you advanced, if they retreated you retreated. If the colors held you held.  Bannermen knew that. War was standard around the colors, or standards, up to and including the American Civil War. 

The order to retreat from General Hurry did not get to the MacLennans. Even when the Gordon cavalry had them surrounded, they would not surrender, and so they died to a man.  

I can only say I must be descended from a MacLennan who was too young to fight or was posthumous.  Roderick MacLennan the chieftain died at Auldearn and the MacLennans did not come together as a clan until more than three centuries later. The clan remnants scattered to the four winds and were about as vagabondish as the MacGregors.

The trouble, beyond not getting the order to retreat, and fighting on when there was no more reason to fight, is the foolish nature of the top and bottom of both sides' chain of command.  The Coventers were fighting Scottish Royalists, primarily Catholics, who were fighting FOR the Roundhead dominated English Parliament to keep Scotland under English control. Though religion was very much at the heart of that 17th Century battle, the way things line up had nothing to do with religion. Both sides had as confusing a hierarchy as you can hope to see.

The Covenenters AND the Roundheads, aka Brownists/Separatists'Puritans, would have gotten along grandly at a cocktail party (or maybe church social), but apparently history had other things in mind for them in the mid-17th Century.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Mon Feb 6 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9898-810+06.htm, number 127577, was posted on Mon Feb 6 at 13:30:26
in reply to d43867a100A-9897-690+07.htm

Re^2: Folly and Plush

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Feb 5, Guest wrote
-------------------------
From "The Yellow Admiral":

>Harding came in, bringing the sun with him. ‘Forgive me for bursting upon you like this, sir, but I have had such a pleasing letter – my wife has just inherited a little estate in Dorset from a distant cousin: it lies between Plush and Folly. I am to be squire of Plush!’ . .
 photo Screen Shot 2017-02-06 at 17.58.22_1.png
This map shows that there's precious little room 'it lies between Plush and Folly' for Harding's estate and the 'wretched school'.

This area is beautiful, tranquil and prosperous now but 200 years it was beset by desperate poverty and class struggle between the farm workers and their masters: this is the land of the Tolpuddle Martyrs


Message 50e5a913p13-9901-648-90.htm, number 127578, was posted on Thu Feb 9 at 10:48:33
‘Congress Buys a Navy: Politics, Economics, and the Rise of American Naval Power, 1881-1921’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Paul E. Pedisich. Annapolis, MD: Naval Institute Press, 2016.

Review by Matthew McCaffrey,  January 23, 2017: Paul Pedisich’s Congress Buys a Navy is a solution in search of a problem. It’s a well-written and researched book that offers a detailed account of the role that Congress played in the rise of the New Navy throughout four decades spanning the turn of the century. It is also, however, a book without a clear purpose.

Although it explains in depth the political machinations surrounding the development of U.S. naval power during the country’s rise to international supremacy, it does not clearly explain the importance of this account for historians or other readers. Despite being replete with detail, it often lacks an overarching motivation or explanation as to why its interpretation of U.S. naval history is original and important . .

Although I have focused on its shortcomings, I should emphasize that this book does contain a wealth of specific information about Congressional influence on the Navy. In my opinion, it will be especially useful for readers who are already familiar with the era in question, and are simply looking for reference material to support other research. Yet while general students of U.S. naval politics will find much to mull over in this book, only a specialist would take it on a long voyage.

[thestrategybridge.org/the-bridge/2017/1/23/reviewing-congress-buys-a-navy]


Message 50e5a913p13-9901-667-07.htm, number 127579, was posted on Thu Feb 9 at 11:07:21
'In maritime studies what is a cardinal mark?' . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today's question from Oxford Reference; find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E0477 to

Message 46c7859300A-9901-680-30.htm, number 127580, was posted on Thu Feb 9 at 11:20:05
An oldie but goody

Max


AUSTRALIA GETS DRUNK, WAKES UP IN NORTH ATLANTIC
Tired of Being Isolated and Ignored, Continent Isn't Bloody Moving

Sydney, 800 miles S. of Nova Scotia (SatireWire.com) — After what witnesses described as an all night blinder during which it kept droning on about how it was always being bloody ignored by the whole bloody world and would bloody well stand to do something about it, Australia this morning woke up to find itself in the middle of the North Atlantic.

current location of australia
"Good Lord, that was a booze up," said a bleary-eyed Australian Prime Minister, John Howard, speaking from his residence at Kirribilli House, approximately 600 nautical miles east of Cape Hatteras, North Carolina.

According to Australians and residents of several countries destroyed or lewdly insulted during the continent's nearly 7,000-mile saltwater stagger, the binge began just after noon yesterday at a pub in Brisbane, where several patrons were discussing Australia Day and the nation's general lack of respect from abroad.

"It started off same as always; coupla fossils saying how our Banjo Patterson was a better poet than Walt Whitman, how Con the Fruiterer is funnier than Seinfeld, only they're Aussies so no one knows about 'em," recalled witness Kevin Porter. "Then this bloke Martin pipes up and says Australia's main problem is that it's stuck in Australia, and everybody says 'Too right!'"

"Well, it made sense at the time," Porter added.

By 2 a.m., powered by national pride and alcohol, the 3-million-square-mile land mass was barging eastward through the Coral Sea and crossing into the central Pacific, leaving a trail of beer cans and Chinese take-away in its wake.

When dawn broke over the Northern Hemisphere, the continent suddenly found itself, not only upside down, but smack in the middle of the Atlantic, and according to most of its 19 million inhabitants, that's the way it's going to stay.

"We sent troops to Afghanistan. You never hear about it. We have huge government scandals. You never hear about it. It's all 'America did this,' and 'Europe says that,'" exclaimed Perth resident Paul Watson. "Well, we're right in the thick of things now, so let's just see if you can you ignore us."

former location of australia
Officials on both sides of the Atlantic conceded that would be difficult. "They broke Florida," said U.S. State Department spokesman Richard Boucher. "And most of Latin America is missing."

Meanwhile, victims of what's already been dubbed the "Australian Crawl" are still shaking off the event.

"Australia bumped into us at about midnight local time," said Hawaii governor Ben Cayetano. "They were very friendly — they always seem friendly — but they refused to go around unless we answered their questions. But the questions were impossible. 'Who is Ian Thorpe? Do you have any Tim Tams? What day is Australia Day?'"

"Fortunately, somebody here had an Unimportant World Dates calendar and we aced the last one," Cayetano added.

Panama, however, was not so lucky.

"Australia came through here screaming curses at us to let them through," said Ernesto Carnal, who guards the locks at the entrance to the Panama Canal. "We said they would not fit, so they demanded to speak with a manager. When I go to find Mr. Caballos, they sneak the whole continent through."

When Caballos shouted to the fleeing country that it had not paid, Australia "accidentally" backed up and took out every nation in the region, as well as the northern third of Venezuela. They then made up a cheery song about it.

By late morning today, however, not everyone in Australia was quite so blithe. "We've still got part of Jamaica stuck to Queensland," said Australian army commander Lt. Gen. Peter Cosgrove. "I think we might have declared war on it. I don't bloody remember. Maybe it's time to go home."

Cosgrove, however, is not in the majority, and at press time, U.S., African, and European leaders were still desperately trying to negotiate for Australia's withdrawal. But the independent-minded Aussies were not making it easy. In a two-hour meeting at midday, Australian representatives listed their demands: immediate inclusion in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, a permanent CNN presence in all 6 Australian states, a worldwide ban on hiring Paul Hogan, a primetime U.S. television contract for Australian Rules Football, and a 4,500-mile-long bridge between Sydney and Los Angeles.

U.S. negotiators immediately walked out, calling the Australian Rules Football request "absurd.


Message c0e3391d00A-9901-965-07.htm, number 127581, was posted on Thu Feb 9 at 16:05:02
Cost of Command – Jack Aubrey vs. Matthew Hervey

Uncle Duke


I first read Allan Mallinson’s “A Close Run Thing” several years ago. I member posting about it here at that time. I recently reread it and was pleasantly surprised to learn that he has written several more books about his hero Matthew Hervey.

For those of you unfamiliar with his work, Mallinson has tried to do for English cavalry of the Napoleonic era what O’Brian did for the Royal Navy of the same period. He falls short, but I am 10 books into the series and can’t quit now.

I do like learning about the minutia of the day-to-day life of a regiment of dragoons as much as learning about the running of one of HMS’s men of war. It has been educational to read about how they were equipped, purchased and cared for their horses, transported them and operated in the field. In this area, Mallinson does a pretty good job.  

One thing that really jumps out is how much more expensive it was to be an officer in the Dragoons than an officer in the royal navy.

Unlike the navy, cavalry commissions had to be bought. There were a few exceptions, but most officers had to come from very rich families. Jack may have to buy the odd long 12 now and again, but a cavalry officer had to buy his own horses. Senior officers were often expected to buy horses for their entire command as well as the uniforms.

As for prize money, while possible in the army, I don’t believe it ever got close to the amount an officer like JA could generate.
At least financially, I believe JA did much better in the navy than he could’ve done in the army


Message 4ca756ac8YV-9901-1122+1e.htm, number 127582, was posted on Thu Feb 9 at 18:41:51
in reply to 46c7859300A-9901-680-30.htm

Australia Day

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com



Message 180f41b400A-9902-717-07.htm, number 127583, was posted on Fri Feb 10 at 11:57:19
Trafalgar

UT Cazaly


www.facebook.com/atelieruldemodelism/videos/1375054449212777/

Message 50e5a913p13-9902-835+06.htm, number 127584, was posted on Fri Feb 10 at 13:55:31
in reply to c0e3391d00A-9901-965-07.htm

Re: Cost of Command – Jack Aubrey vs. Matthew Hervey

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Feb 9, Uncle Duke wrote
------------------------------
. . At least financially, I believe JA did much better in the navy than he could’ve done in the army

This is correct. The Navy recruited the sons of the middle class learned professions, who could pass for gentlemen by education and manners but who were often without any private means. Instead they had the brains and motivation to master a difficult and demanding profession. Most of them, however, never advanced beyond lieutenant, saw very little action, no single ship action and never made a penny in prize money. They could manage - just - on their pay. Jack’s very different experience is modelled on the careers of a very few fighting captains.

All army ranks beyond the entry level ensigns had to be purchased but the infantry and artillery were much cheaper than the cavalry, both to buy and to live. This meant that the body of army officers was segregated professionally and socially by money, which suited everybody.

Prize money was very rare - I can’t think of any examples but there certainly was the chance for loot from time to time, particularly in India.

Later: Search tells me tha prize money was paid to the British Army in 1814 and 1815, on a scale determined by rank: www.napoleon-series.org/research/abstract/military/army/britain/Prizemoney/c_armyprizemoney6.html


Message 50e5a913p13-9902-844+07.htm, number 127585, was posted on Fri Feb 10 at 14:04:31
in reply to 180f41b400A-9902-717-07.htm

In contrast, nowadays . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Feb 10, UT Cazaly wrote
------------------------------
>www.facebook.com/atelieruldemodelism/videos/1375054449212777/
..............
. . we'll go to war with the navy we haven't got:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-02-10 at 19.01.53.png
SUBS: ZERO The Royal Navy’s ENTIRE fleet of attack submarines is out of action — and Theresa May doesn’t know because ‘chiefs fear reaction’
www.thesun.co.uk/news/2829355/uks-entire-fleet-of-attack-submarines-is-out-of-action-and-theresa-may-doesnt-know/

Message 6314fe3c00A-9902-993+06.htm, number 127586, was posted on Fri Feb 10 at 16:32:53
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9902-835+06.htm

Re^2: Cost of Command – Jack Aubrey vs. Matthew Hervey

Uncle Duke


Lord Cardigan of Balaclava fame purchased his way from lieutenant to lieutenant-colonel and command of the 15th Hussars in about five years. Look how that turned out. The price of commissions was supposed to be regulated. However, an officer in a “smart” regiment could often charge whatever he wanted when selling out. When a regiment was posted to a less than desirable location, there could be a “fire-sale” mentality of officers wanting to leave that unit.


On Fri Feb 10, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Thu Feb 9, Uncle Duke wrote
>------------------------------
> . . At least financially, I believe JA did much better in the navy than he could’ve done in the army

>This is correct. The Navy recruited the sons of the middle class learned professions, who could pass for gentlemen by education and manners but who were often without any private means. Instead they had the brains and motivation to master a difficult and demanding profession. Most of them, however, never advanced beyond lieutenant, saw very little action, no single ship action and never made a penny in prize money. They could manage - just - on their pay. Jack’s very different experience is modelled on the careers of a very few fighting captains.

>All army ranks beyond the entry level ensigns had to be purchased but the infantry and artillery were much cheaper than the cavalry, both to buy and to live. This meant that the body of army officers was segregated professionally and socially by money, which suited everybody.

>Prize money was very rare - I can’t think of any examples but there certainly was the chance for loot from time to time, particularly in India.

>Later: Search tells me tha prize money was paid to the British Army in 1814 and 1815, on a scale determined by rank: www.napoleon-series.org/research/abstract/military/army/britain/Prizemoney/c_armyprizemoney6.html

>


Message 4588233100A-9903-534-07.htm, number 127587, was posted on Sat Feb 11 at 08:53:57
"What have we lost now we can no longer read the sky?"

Whoreson Beast


aeon.co/essays/what-have-we-lost-now-we-can-no-longer-read-the-sky

Message 50e5a913p13-9903-779-07.htm, number 127588, was posted on Sat Feb 11 at 12:59:02
A Regency Abortion

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Procuring an abortion was a serious crime in the Regency period and when illegal abortionists were caught, the newspapers were relatively free with the details . . Sometimes the man would procure an abortion or even attempt it themselves; if the women were expelled from the house when they became pregnant they would try to poison   themselves. Sometimes they would keep the pregnancy a secret, leave their employ at the last moment and then have the child in a dismal lodging house . .

. .  the 1803 “Ellenborough Act” made abortion after about 20 weeks a felony which carried a maximum life imprisonment. This new law  was first specific English law that made abortion an illegal act; earlier the procedure had been covered by common law and the belief that the soul came into the foetus at about 16- 20 weeks which banned abortion after that date.

. .  Widow Welch’s Pills were a well known abortion inducer well into the twentieth century and would have contained a natural abortifacient such as pennyroyal. The advertisement hides its main aim with a torrent of other ailments, but it is particularly good for “female obstruction” which could be interpreted inducing the onset of menstruation in a young woman or moderating the menopause, but actually meant abortion.

Other methods were available . .

[about1816.wordpress.com/2017/02/11/a-regency-abortion/]

Stephen, being a Catholic, would have no truck with abortion.


Message 4747f4808HW-9903-974+07.htm, number 127589, was posted on Sat Feb 11 at 16:14:14
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9903-779-07.htm

Not just Catholics

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Stephen, being a Catholic, would have even less truck with abortion than the Protestants around him.  But as seems clear from your post, the Protestants of that time seem to have been equally clear in their opinions about when a life becomes a human child.

On Sat Feb 11, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Procuring an abortion was a serious crime in the Regency period and when illegal abortionists were caught, the newspapers were relatively free with the details . . Sometimes the man would procure an abortion or even attempt it themselves; if the women were expelled from the house when they became pregnant they would try to poison   themselves. Sometimes they would keep the pregnancy a secret, leave their employ at the last moment and then have the child in a dismal lodging house . .

> . .  the 1803 “Ellenborough Act” made abortion after about 20 weeks a felony which carried a maximum life imprisonment. This new law  was first specific English law that made abortion an illegal act; earlier the procedure had been covered by common law and the belief that the soul came into the foetus at about 16- 20 weeks which banned abortion after that date.
>
> . .  Widow Welch’s Pills were a well known abortion inducer well into the twentieth century and would have contained a natural abortifacient such as pennyroyal. The advertisement hides its main aim with a torrent of other ailments, but it is particularly good for “female obstruction” which could be interpreted inducing the onset of menstruation in a young woman or moderating the menopause, but actually meant abortion.

>Other methods were available . .

>[about1816.wordpress.com/2017/02/11/a-regency-abortion/]

>Stephen, being a Catholic, would have no truck with abortion.


Message c10b0994cb5-9905-803+48.htm, number 127590, was posted on Mon Feb 13 at 13:23:33
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9887-363-90.htm

German and American takes on the situation.

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



Message ae108ab8UWK-9906-69+04.htm, number 127591, was posted on Tue Feb 14 at 01:09:03
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9903-779-07.htm

Presentism Detected

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Stephen would have understood the moral distinctions and variances of "Obstetric abortion" as contrasted to "Criminal abortion", without reference to Civil Law or the vagaries of Aquinas or Blackmun.  Septic issues would have been more of a concern.





On Sat Feb 11, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Procuring an abortion was a serious crime in the Regency period and when illegal abortionists were caught, the newspapers were relatively free with the details . . Sometimes the man would procure an abortion or even attempt it themselves; if the women were expelled from the house when they became pregnant they would try to poison   themselves. Sometimes they would keep the pregnancy a secret, leave their employ at the last moment and then have the child in a dismal lodging house . .

> . .  the 1803 “Ellenborough Act” made abortion after about 20 weeks a felony which carried a maximum life imprisonment. This new law  was first specific English law that made abortion an illegal act; earlier the procedure had been covered by common law and the belief that the soul came into the foetus at about 16- 20 weeks which banned abortion after that date.
>
> . .  Widow Welch’s Pills were a well known abortion inducer well into the twentieth century and would have contained a natural abortifacient such as pennyroyal. The advertisement hides its main aim with a torrent of other ailments, but it is particularly good for “female obstruction” which could be interpreted inducing the onset of menstruation in a young woman or moderating the menopause, but actually meant abortion.

>Other methods were available . .

>[about1816.wordpress.com/2017/02/11/a-regency-abortion/]

>Stephen, being a Catholic, would have no truck with abortion.


Message 50e5a913p13-9907-478+46.htm, number 127592, was posted on Wed Feb 15 at 07:57:50
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9897-794+50.htm

SS-GB: first review

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The BBC’s five-part miniseries, adapted from Len Deighton’s novel, holds up handsomely on the big screen, favouring film noir style over pulp content

[www.theguardian.com/film/2017/feb/15/ss-gb-review-berlin-film-festival-bbc1-miniseries]


Message 50e5a913p13-9908-840-07.htm, number 127593, was posted on Thu Feb 16 at 14:00:22
Benjamin Franklin and the sea

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


 photo BenjaminFranklinNationalMemorial.jpg
From the OUP blog:

. . we don’t often think about Benjamin Franklin in his nautical context, as someone who drew inspiration and much of his expressive framework from the sea, though we should . . after the Revolution, Franklin made his eighth and final ocean voyage, in 1785. During this trip, he began organizing what became known as his “Maritime Observations.” A compendium of nautical notes, it is remarkable for its scientific content.

Franklin makes suggestions to account for wind resistance in an improved sail configuration and designs experiments to test them; he proposes improvements to anchor cables in order to keep them from being lost or doing damage to the ship; he suggests partitioning the holds of ships into separate watertight compartments to prevent a leak in one part of the ship from sinking the whole; he advocates building vessels constructed along the lines of the boats of Pacific Islanders, “the most expert boat-sailors of the world”; he explains how to prevent shipboard fires from candles, lanterns, and lightning, and how to avoid icebergs; and proposes moving through the water by the use of human-powered propellers.

Franklin also discusses at length the Gulf Stream and its usefulness in navigation. He makes voluminous notes on surviving disasters at sea, including having emergency kites available for sailors to pull them across the water. He even proposed a design for soup bowls that would keep them from spilling on the rolling seas!

In the final sections of his Autobiography, written and dictated during the last years of his life, Franklin moralized some of his own nautical experiences . . he recounted his third Atlantic crossing to explain how experimentation and shared authority could make ships efficient and help them avoid disaster. Franklin knew cooperation and tolerance were going to be important to the success of the new experimental American ship of state, and delivered that message drawing on a strong inclination for the sea that never waned.

[blog.oup.com/2017/01/benjamin-franklin-sea/]


Message 6242bb7f00A-9914-1347+05.htm, number 127594, was posted on Wed Feb 22 at 22:27:26
in reply to 462af00500A-9889-1123-30.htm

As James Delaney might say

YA


"Mmmppphh"
"Errrrggghhh"
"Unnnnhhh"
He grunts a lot, is what I'm saying.
Although "I have a use for you" is pretty  clear. Kinda reminds me of Rorshach.

Message 50e5a913p13-9915-555+04.htm, number 127595, was posted on Thu Feb 23 at 09:14:43
in reply to 462af00500A-9889-1123-30.htm

Naysayers be damned! Tom Hardy's Taboo is a work of Wicker Man genius

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Hardy’s tale of revenge, gunpowder and incest has been misunderstood. It actually follows a long tradition of weird, wild historical drama now all too rare:

Sarah Hughes writes: ' . . Hardy’s passion piece (or vanity project if you’re feeling cruel) is big, bold and brash. It’s a heady stew of gothic revenge tale and colonial critique that draws on everything from Charles Dickens and Wilkie Collins to H Rider Haggard and Joseph Conrad. The sort of drama where men are confined to the Tower of London and women to Bedlam, where the camera lingers lovingly on each mud-spattered urchin and the costumes owe as much to steampunk as historical reality. It’s a vivid fever dream of a show, stuffed full of hallucinations and permanently hinting at supernatural elements that (like Delaney’s long-departed mother) never quite come into focus. As a viewer you can either submit to the madness swirling all round or sigh and give up in disgust.

None of this is by accident. For all the involvement of US cable channel FX, this is still a very British historical drama. It’s just that Hardy, his father Chips and writer Steven Knight are drawing on a very different but equally valid strain – the wild side that flourished in the late 60s and 70s and yet is now too rarely seen . . '

[www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/feb/23/naysayers-be-damned-tom-hardys-taboo-is-a-work-of-wicker-man-genius]


Message 4588233100A-9916-430-07.htm, number 127596, was posted on Fri Feb 24 at 07:10:24
"Counting on the Trendy to Revive Kava...."

Whoreson Beast


www.nytimes.com/2017/02/23/business/fiji-kava-prices-drink.html?emc=edit_nn_20170224&nl=morning-briefing&nlid=64484057&te=1&_r

Message 4747f4808HW-9916-820-30.htm, number 127597, was posted on Fri Feb 24 at 13:40:09
Yet more naval etymologies

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


My Android dictionary app came up recently with a list of 15 nautical terms.  Some of them are already familiar to us nautical coves: "gaff", "high and dry", "loose cannon", "jib", "three sheets to the wind", "hard and fast", "poop" and "slush fund".  A few others have the usual suspicious taint of home-grown etymology:

"Son of a gun": Says here that if someone was born on board and the father was unknown, the child was known as a son of a gun.

"Pipe down": "...when the senior deckhand would play the last signal on his pipe at the end of the day".  "Senior deckhand"?  And are they saying "pipe down" is the nautical version of Taps?

"Shake a leg": Something that women on board were told to do so, when the bosun and his mates came rousting sailors (but not the sailors' women) out of their hammocks; the feminine leg appears and she's not disturbed further.

But there are some that are completely new to me and sound convincing:

"Clean bill of health": A certificate signed by a port authority attesting that no contagious disease existed in the port of departure and none of the crew were infected with a disease at the time of sailing.  I suppose, if true, that it was issued at departure, so that it could be presented to the next harbormaster as part of entering.

"Filibuster":  This claims that buccaneers were sometimes known as "filibusters" in England.  Anyone know whether this is true?

"Bull's-eye": "An oval or circular wooden black having...a hole in the center, through which to reeve a rope".  I dunno, maybe I did hear that term somewhere in the canon, but if so I forget it.

"Groggy": Sure, it's related to grog.  But it adds that Admiral Edward Vernon "liked to water down his crew's rum ration", which the crew didn't care for.  They called him "Old Grog" in their mutterings, and they called his watered drink "grog" as well.  Why "grog"?  Because Vernon liked to wear grogram jackets (from the French grosgrain; grogram is a coarse-grained fabric).  This rings true to me.

The floor is now open to comments and especially rebuttals.


Message 47b879ac00A-9916-952+1e.htm, number 127598, was posted on Fri Feb 24 at 15:51:39
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9916-820-30.htm

Re: Yet more naval etymologies

Don Seltzer


On Fri Feb 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------

>"Pipe down": "...when the senior deckhand would play the last signal on his pipe at the end of the day".  "Senior deckhand"?  And are they saying "pipe down" is the nautical version of Taps?

A slightly garbled version.  The bosun used his 'call' to issue various commands.  One of them was 'Pipe Down', which meant that the crew not on watch was dismissed below.


>"Bull's-eye": "An oval or circular wooden black having...a hole in the center, through which to reeve a rope".  I dunno, maybe I did hear that term somewhere in the canon, but if so I forget it.

Naval version was similar to a dead-eye.  But there seem to have been several independent uses of bull's eye, such as a pane of glass made from the hub of spun glass.  I suspect that all of these usages derived separately from their similarity to a real bull's eye.

>"Groggy": Sure, it's related to grog.  But it adds that Admiral Edward Vernon "liked to water down his crew's rum ration", which the crew didn't care for.  They called him "Old Grog" in their mutterings, and they called his watered drink "grog" as well.  Why "grog"?  Because Vernon liked to wear grogram jackets (from the French grosgrain; grogram is a coarse-grained fabric).  This rings true to me.

I have seen this explanation often enough, and it seems reasonable. Vernon was actually called 'Old Grogham'.


Message 31bb0bc900A-9916-1209+1e.htm, number 127599, was posted on Fri Feb 24 at 20:08:52
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9916-952+1e.htm

Re^2: Yet more naval etymologies

wombat


On Fri Feb 24, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>On Fri Feb 24, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------



>>"Bull's-eye": "An oval or circular wooden black having...a hole in the center, through which to reeve a rope".  I dunno, maybe I did hear that term somewhere in the canon, but if so I forget it.

>Naval version was similar to a dead-eye.  But there seem to have been several independent uses of bull's eye, such as a pane of glass made from the hub of spun glass.  I suspect that all of these usages derived separately from their similarity to a rea bull's eye.

Yes. It being a more common experience in the past to be caught in the inimical line of sight of a bull or bullock - what with oxen providing so much of the motive power? The particular version that immediately came to my mind was the architectural one, the small, round 'oeil de boeuf' window - it dates back to Gothic architecture, maybe to the 'oculus' of Roman times.

(Why keep all this arcane information to myself?)


Message 46d1c43400A-9918-93+01.htm, number 127600, was posted on Sun Feb 26 at 01:32:43
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9915-555+04.htm

Re: Naysayers be damned! Tom Hardy's Taboo is a work of Wicker Man genius

Max


Thanks for this link. It may be the first time the Guardian and I see eye to eye on a film.
They even comment on the same Oliver Reed and Bill Sykes channeling.


Hardy’s performance. With his ever-present hat and billowing coat he is a cross between Bill Sikes and Heathcliff,




n Thu Feb 23, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Hardy’s tale of revenge, gunpowder and incest has been misunderstood. It actually follows a long tradition of weird, wild historical drama now all too rare:

>Sarah Hughes writes: ' . . Hardy’s passion piece (or vanity project if you’re feeling cruel) is big, bold and brash. It’s a heady stew of gothic revenge tale and colonial critique that draws on everything from Charles Dickens and Wilkie Collins to H Rider Haggard and Joseph Conrad. The sort of drama where men are confined to the Tower of London and women to Bedlam, where the camera lingers lovingly on each mud-spattered urchin and the costumes owe as much to steampunk as historical reality. It’s a vivid fever dream of a show, stuffed full of hallucinations and permanently hinting at supernatural elements that (like Delaney’s long-departed mother) never quite come into focus. As a viewer you can either submit to the madness swirling all round or sigh and give up in disgust.

>None of this is by accident. For all the involvement of US cable channel FX, this is still a very British historical drama. It’s just that Hardy, his father Chips and writer Steven Knight are drawing on a very different but equally valid strain – the wild side that flourished in the late 60s and 70s and yet is now too rarely seen . . '

>[www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/feb/23/naysayers-be-damned-tom-hardys-taboo-is-a-work-of-wicker-man-genius]


Message 50e5a913p13-9919-686+1b.htm, number 127601, was posted on Mon Feb 27 at 11:26:00
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9916-820-30.htm

Pipe down, thou lubberly, duck-legged son of a gun!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Feb 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
A few others have the usual suspicious taint of home-grown etymology:
>"Son of a gun" . .
>"Pipe down" . .

‘son of a gun, a somewhat depreciatory term for ‘man, fellow’. (See quot. 1867.)
1708   Brit. Apollo No. 43. 3/2   You'r a Son of a Gun.
1840   R. H. Barham Cynotaph in Ingoldsby Legends 1st Ser. 112 (note)    We heard the rough voice of a son of a gun Of a watchman ‘one o'clock!’ bawling.
1850   Thackeray Pendennis II. xxii. 219   What a happy feller I once thought you, and what a miserable son of a gun you really are!
1867   W. H. Smyth & E. Belcher Sailor's Word-bk.   Son of a gun, an epithet conveying contempt in a slight degree, and originally applied to boys born afloat, when women were permitted to accompany their husbands to sea; one admiral declared he literally was thus cradled, under the breast of a gun-carriage.
1883   Harper's Mag. Oct. 759/2   Thou lubberly, duck-legged son of a gun.’

… ……
‘pipe, v.1 Latin . .
. . to pipe down
1. trans. Naut. To dismiss (a crew) by sounding the boatswain's pipe; freq. in imper. to pipe down the hammocks: to give the signal for the crew to retire for the night. Cf. pipe down n.
1798 L. Gillespie Advice to Commanders & Officers 22 At four o'clock, P.M. the hammocks should regularly be piped down.
. . 1994 P. O'Brian Commodore (1996) ix. 247 When you consider what the lower deck is like..the cloud of witnesses when hammocks are piped down

2. intr. colloq. To stop talking, be quiet, be less noisy or insistent. Freq. imper . .
1876 G. Campbell Log Lett. from Challenger iii. 119 As I cannot tell you..anything about New Zealand I shall ‘pipe down’.
. . 1945 E. Waugh Brideshead Revisited i. v. 105 Groans of protest rose from the other cells where various tramps and pick-pockets were trying to get some sleep: ‘Aw, pipe down!’ . .

pipe down, n. The action of piping down a crew; a call on the boatswain's pipe signalling sailors to retire for the night; the time at which this signal is sounded.
1839 U.S. Mag. & Democratic Rev. Apr. 424 ‘Pipe down’, whistled the boatswain to the crew, and ‘pipe down’ it was . . ‘
…………

(OED)


Message 6176b244UWK-9919-847-30.htm, number 127602, was posted on Mon Feb 27 at 14:07:22
Taboo Revisited Redux - POB Connection emerges

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


See link to a biography of an historical John company nabob named Stuart Strange who was married to a Dundas (Lord Melville's daughter it appears) and voyaged to Nootka Sound to lose his shirt.

www.biographi.ca/en/bio/strange_james_charles_stuart_7E.html


Message 50e5a913p13-9920-472+1a.htm, number 127603, was posted on Tue Feb 28 at 07:53:07
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9916-820-30.htm

‘ . . the Sea Rovers, commonly called Frebutters . . ’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Feb 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>"Clean bill of health" . .
>"Filibuster":  This claims that buccaneers were sometimes known as "filibusters" in England.  Anyone know whether this is true?

‘bill, n.3 Middle English bille . .
†1. a. A written document (originally sealed), a statement in writing (more or less formal); a letter, note, memorandum (cf. billet n.1) Obs. in general sense, but retained in numerous legal and commercial terms: see sense Compounds 1.
a1396 H. Knyghton Chron. iii.i. anno 1272 Decanus Lincolniensis proposuit unam billam excusatoriam.

. . Compounds
C1. With specification: . . bill of health n. an official certificate given to the master of a vessel sailing from a port liable to infection, stating whether at the time of sailing any infectious disease existed on board or in the port (hence a clean bill: one certifying total absence of infection; suspected bill or touched bill, foul bill) . .
1644 J. Evelyn Mem. 12 Oct. Having procur'd a bill of health (without which there is no admission at any towne in Italy) we embarq'd on the 12th.
. . 1851 J. R. McCulloch Dict. Commerce 1084 Were the said bills of health clean, unclean, or suspected?’

…………

‘fil buster, n. Dutch vrijbuiter . . About 1850–54, the form ilibuster, Spanish filibustero, began to be employed as the designation of certain adventurers who at that time were active in the W. Indies and Central America; and this has now superseded the earlier flibustier . .

†1. gen. = freebooter* Obs. rare—1.
1591 W. Garrard & R. Hitchcock Arte of Warre 236 Such..as bring wares to the campe, he [the High Marshall of the Field] must take order that they be courteously..vsed..procuring them a conuoy..to the intent they may..remaine..satisfied, without suspect of being robbed..of thieves and flibutors.

2. spec.
a. One of a class of piratical adventurers who pillaged the Spanish colonies in the West Indies during the 17th c.
1792 E. Burke Consideration Present State Affairs in Wks. (1826) VII. 93 The Flibustiers..about a century back..brought..calamities upon the Spanish colonies . .

b. A member of any of those bands of adventurers who between 1850 and 1860 organized expeditions from the United States, in violation of international law, for the purpose of revolutionizing certain states in Central America and the Spanish West Indies.
. . 1855 H. D. Thoreau Let. 7 Feb. in Corr. (1958) 371 The gold-diggers and the Mormons, the slaves and the slave-holders, and the flibustiers.

3. U.S. One who practises obstruction in a legislative assembly:

4. An act of obstruction in a legislative assem ly.

* freebooter, n. Dutch vrijbuiter . . Originally: a privateer. Later more generally: a piratical adventurer, a pirate; any person who goes about in search of plunder. Also fig. and in extended use.
. . 1572 Fourme Proclam. Reformation of Disorders vpon Sea Coastes (single sheet) The Queenes Maiestie doth strayghtly charge and commaunde al the Sea Rouers, commonly called Frebutters,..to depart . . ‘

(OED)


Message 4747f4808HW-9920-1000+1a.htm, number 127604, was posted on Tue Feb 28 at 16:40:17
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9920-472+1a.htm

Endlessly fascinating

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Interesting:  I caught "flibutors" (highlighted below) and connected it with "freebooters" mentally but uncertainly; I intended to look it up.  Until I read the footnote I failed to make the connection with the Dutch vrijbuiter.  There's never an end to it.  Would that I could be one of of Poul Anderson's immortals, watching words change century after century!

Thanks for the confirmation, Chrístõ.

On Tue Feb 28, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>‘fil buster, n.   Dutch vrijbuiter . . About 1850–54, the form  ilibuster,   Spanish filibustero, began to be employed as the designation of certain adventurers who at that time were active in the W. Indies and Central America; and this has now superseded the earlier flibustier . .
>
>†1. gen. = freebooter* Obs. rare—1.
>1591   W. Garrard & R. Hitchcock Arte of Warre 236   Such..as bring wares to the campe, he [the High Marshall of the Field] must take order that they be courteously..vsed..procuring them a conuoy..to the intent they may..remaine..satisfied, without suspect of being robbed..of thieves and flibutors.
>
> 2. spec.
> a. One of a class of piratical adventurers who pillaged the Spanish colonies in the West Indies during the 17th c.
>1792   E. Burke Consideration Present State Affairs in Wks. (1826) VII. 93   The Flibustiers..about a century back..brought..calamities upon the Spanish colonies . .

>b. A member of any of those bands of adventurers who between 1850 and 1860 organized expeditions from the United States, in violation of international law, for the purpose of revolutionizing certain states in Central America and the Spanish West Indies.
> . . 1855   H. D. Thoreau Let. 7 Feb. in Corr. (1958) 371   The gold-diggers and the Mormons, the slaves and the slave-holders, and the flibustiers.

> 3. U.S. One who practises obstruction in a legislative assembly:

> 4. An act of obstruction in a legislative assem ly.
>…
>* freebooter, n.  Dutch vrijbuiter . . Originally: a privateer. Later more generally: a piratical adventurer, a pirate; any person who goes about in search of plunder. Also fig. and in extended use.
> . . 1572   Fourme Proclam. Reformation of Disorders vpon Sea Coastes (single sheet)    The Queenes Maiestie doth strayghtly charge and commaunde al the Sea Rouers, commonly called Frebutters,..to depart . . ‘

>(OED)

>On Fri Feb 24, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>"Filibuster":  This claims that buccaneers were sometimes known as "filibusters" in England.  Anyone know whether this is true?


Message 50e5a913p13-9921-337+19.htm, number 127605, was posted on Wed Mar 1 at 05:37:25
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9916-820-30.htm

Bull's-eyes and grognards

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Feb 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
. . "Groggy": Sure, it's related to grog . .
...........
Re: ‘bulls-eye:

‘ . . II. A circular hole, or an object containing one.
. . 5. Naut.
1769   W. Falconer Universal Dict. Marine   Bull's-eye, a..small pulley in the form of a ring, having a rope spliced round the outer edge..and a..hole in the middle for another rope to slide in.
1834   F. Marryat Peter Simple I. vi. 65   Pass that brace through the bull's eye . . ‘

...........
‘groggy, adj. < grog n. . .
1. Intoxicated. Also, characterized by drinking habits, bibulous.
1770 T. Norworth in Gentleman's Mag. 559/2 [Eighty names for having drunk too much.] 25. Groggy; this is a West-Indian Phrase; Rum and Water, without sugar, being called Grogg.
1801 M. G. Lewis Sailor's Tale in Tales of Wonder I. xv. 82 Groggy last night, my luck was such, that overboard I slid . .

. . 3. slang. Weakened in a fight, so as to stagger; hence, gen. shaky, tottering, unsteady.
1834 F. Marryat Jacob Faithful I. iv. 59 He was what is termed groggy, from the constant return of blows on the sides of the head . . ‘
……….
‘grog, n. < Said to be short for grogram n., and to have been applied first as a personal nickname to Admiral Vernon, from the fact of his wearing a grogram cloak, and afterwards transferred to the mixture which he ordered to be served out instead of neat spirit. Vernon's order, dated Aug. 1740, is still extant. The statement that he wore a grogram cloak, and was thence nicknamed ‘Old Grog’, first appears explicitly in Grose Dict. Vulgar Tongue 1796, but derives some support from Trotter's allusion in quot. 1781 at sense 1a.

1. a. A drink consisting of spirits (originally rum) and water. half and half grog, a drink made of equal parts of spirits and water; seven-water grog, a contemptuous name among sailors for very weak grog.
. . 1781 Trotter Written on board the Berwick in Notes & Queries 1st Ser. I. 168 A mighty bowl on deck he drew, And filled it to the brink; Such drank the Burford's gallant crew, And such the gods shall drink, The sacred robe which Vernon wore Was drenched within the same; And hence his virtues guard our shore, And Grog derives its name.
. . 1883 R. L. Stevenson Treasure Island ii. x. 82 Double grog was going on the least excuse.’
…………
‘grognard, n. < French, lit. ‘grumbler’. ‘Nom donné aux soldats de la vieille garde sous le premier empire, et, en général, à un vieux soldat, le plus souvent en un sens favorable’ A soldier of Napoleon's Old Guard. Also transf., a veteran soldier.
1912   J. H. Rose Personality of Napoleon iii. 68   He [sc. Napoleon] loved to talk with his Old Guard, asking them how long and where they had served... He it was who nicknamed them les gr gnards . . ‘
…………
‘grogram, n. French gros grain large or coarse grain.
1. A coarse fabric of silk, of mohair and wool, or of these mixed with silk; often stiffened with gum. Cf. grosgrain n.
1562 in J. Raine Wills & Inventories N. Counties Eng. (1835) I. 200 Thre gounes one of grograyn, gardid wt velvet.
. . 1712 J. Addison Spectator No. 530. ¶4 [She] did more Execution upon me in Grogram, than the greatest Beauty..had ever done in Brocade . .

grogram coat n.
1811 Sporting Mag. 37 131 The Admiral [Vernon] at that time wore a grogram coat.’
...........


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9921-639+19.htm, number 127606, was posted on Wed Mar 1 at 10:38:40
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9920-1000+1a.htm

Re: Endlessly fascinating

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


It's fun looking into the connections between English and Dutch, not that I've done much of it. I have on occasion gone looking for the origin of a word that doesn't seem to have anything to do with either the modern French or German version, and found after some digging some cognate in the Dutch.
There's a lovely story in Patrick Leigh Fermor's 'A Time of Gifts' (he was nuts about this language stuff) about a Fellow he met, down and out in Vienna in 1934, from the Frisian Islands. This guy spoke and archaic and very charming type of English he'd learned from reading Shakespeare, and what he told young PLF was that when Christian missionaries first arrived from England to the Frisians in (the 8th C?) they needed no translators.
This reminded me of something a German told me when I was wandering over there many years ago. He said Dutch is closer to English than German. I thought he was nuts until I saw printed Dutch and started noticing the similarities. It's the pronunciation that throws you off.
Some thoughts on a Wednesday morning....now back to work.


On Tue Feb 28, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Interesting:  I caught "flibutors" (highlighted below) and connected it with "freebooters" mentally but uncertainly; I intended to look it up.  Until I read the footnote I failed to make the connection with the Dutch vrijbuiter.  There's never an end to it.  Would that I could be one of of Poul Anderson's immortals, watching words change century after century!

>Thanks for the confirmation, Chrístõ.

>On Tue Feb 28, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>‘fil buster, n.   Dutch vrijbuiter . . About 1850–54, the form  ilibuster,   Spanish filibustero, began to be employed as the designation of certain adventurers who at that time were active in the W. Indies and Central America; and this has now superseded the earlier flibustier . .
>>
>>†1. gen. = freebooter* Obs. rare—1.
>>1591   W. Garrard & R. Hitchcock Arte of Warre 236   Such..as bring wares to the campe, he [the High Marshall of the Field] must take order that they be courteously..vsed..procuring them a conuoy..to the intent they may..remaine..satisfied, without suspect of being robbed..of thieves and flibutors.
>>
>> 2. spec.
>> a. One of a class of piratical adventurers who pillaged the Spanish colonies in the West Indies during the 17th c.
>>1792   E. Burke Consideration Present State Affairs in Wks. (1826) VII. 93   The Flibustiers..about a century back..brought..calamities upon the Spanish colonies . .

>>b. A member of any of those bands of adventurers who between 1850 and 1860 organized expeditions from the United States, in violation of international law, for the purpose of revolutionizing certain states in Central America and the Spanish West Indies.
>> . . 1855   H. D. Thoreau Let. 7 Feb. in Corr. (1958) 371   The gold-diggers and the Mormons, the slaves and the slave-holders, and the flibustiers.

>> 3. U.S. One who practises obstruction in a legislative assembly:

>> 4. An act of obstruction in a legislative assem ly.
>>…
>>* freebooter, n.  Dutch vrijbuiter . . Originally: a privateer. Later more generally: a piratical adventurer, a pirate; any person who goes about in search of plunder. Also fig. and in extended use.
>> . . 1572   Fourme Proclam. Reformation of Disorders vpon Sea Coastes (single sheet)    The Queenes Maiestie doth strayghtly charge and commaunde al the Sea Rouers, commonly called Frebutters,..to depart . . ‘

>>(OED)

>>On Fri Feb 24, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>"Filibuster":  This claims that buccaneers were sometimes known as "filibusters" in England.  Anyone know whether this is true?


Message 4747f4808HW-9921-1117+19.htm, number 127607, was posted on Wed Mar 1 at 18:36:56
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-9921-639+19.htm

Re^2: Endlessly fascinating

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Not long ago it dawned on me that verb "gull", in the sense of deceiving someone, has an obvious connection to "guile"; clearly they had a common history.  I went to look it up.

But no, no connection at all, except that of coïncidence.  "Gull" has meant a sea bird in the Scandinavian languages, or sometimes a young sea bird, for more than a thousand years, IIRC; and "guile" comes from Latin.  So how did "gull" and "gullible" come to have that sense?  My copy of the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue, which I'm pretty sure I first heard of here, says "gull" was an early thieves' cant for the mark, perhaps from the habit of young gulls to snap up anything within reach.  So the "gull"/"guile" connection, while obvious, appears to be just plain wrong.

Endlessly fascinating.

On Wed Mar 1, Joe McWilliams wrote
----------------------------------
>It's fun looking into the connections between English and Dutch, not that I've done much of it. I have on occasion gone looking for the origin of a word that doesn't seem to have anything to do with either the modern French or German version, and found after some digging some cognate in the Dutch.
>There's a lovely story in Patrick Leigh Fermor's 'A Time of Gifts' (he was nuts about this language stuff) about a Fellow he met, down and out in Vienna in 1934, from the Frisian Islands. This guy spoke and archaic and very charming type of English he'd learned from reading Shakespeare, and what he told young PLF was that when Christian missionaries first arrived from England to the Frisians in (the 8th C?) they needed no translators.
>This reminded me of something a German told me when I was wandering over there many years ago. He said Dutch is closer to English than German. I thought he was nuts until I saw printed Dutch and started noticing the similarities. It's the pronunciation that throws you off.
>Some thoughts on a Wednesday morning....now back to work.
>
>
>On Tue Feb 28, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Interesting:  I caught "flibutors" (highlighted below) and connected it with "freebooters" mentally but uncertainly; I intended to look it up.  Until I read the footnote I failed to make the connection with the Dutch vrijbuiter.  There's never an end to it.  Would that I could be one of of Poul Anderson's immortals, watching words change century after century!

>>Thanks for the confirmation, Chrístõ.

>>On Tue Feb 28, Chrístõ wrote
>>----------------------------
>>>‘fil buster, n.   Dutch vrijbuiter . . About 1850–54, the form  ilibuster,   Spanish filibustero, began to be employed as the designation of certain adventurers who at that time were active in the W. Indies and Central America; and this has now superseded the earlier flibustier . .
>>>
>>>†1. gen. = freebooter* Obs. rare—1.
>>>1591   W. Garrard & R. Hitchcock Arte of Warre 236   Such..as bring wares to the campe, he [the High Marshall of the Field] must take order that they be courteously..vsed..procuring them a conuoy..to the intent they may..remaine..satisfied, without suspect of being robbed..of thieves and flibutors.
>>>
>>> 2. spec.
>>> a. One of a class of piratical adventurers who pillaged the Spanish colonies in the West Indies during the 17th c.
>>>1792   E. Burke Consideration Present State Affairs in Wks. (1826) VII. 93   The Flibustiers..about a century back..brought..calamities upon the Spanish colonies . .

>>>b. A member of any of those bands of adventurers who between 1850 and 1860 organized expeditions from the United States, in violation of international law, for the purpose of revolutionizing certain states in Central America and the Spanish West Indies.
>>> . . 1855   H. D. Thoreau Let. 7 Feb. in Corr. (1958) 371   The gold-diggers and the Mormons, the slaves and the slave-holders, and the flibustiers.

>>> 3. U.S. One who practises obstruction in a legislative assembly:

>>> 4. An act of obstruction in a legislative assem ly.
>>>…
>>>* freebooter, n.  Dutch vrijbuiter . . Originally: a privateer. Later more generally: a piratical adventurer, a pirate; any person who goes about in search of plunder. Also fig. and in extended use.
>>> . . 1572   Fourme Proclam. Reformation of Disorders vpon Sea Coastes (single sheet)    The Queenes Maiestie doth strayghtly charge and commaunde al the Sea Rouers, commonly called Frebutters,..to depart . . ‘

>>>(OED)

>>>On Fri Feb 24, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>--------------------------------
>>>>"Filibuster":  This claims that buccaneers were sometimes known as "filibusters" in England.  Anyone know whether this is true?


Message 50e5a913p13-9922-437+18.htm, number 127608, was posted on Thu Mar 2 at 07:17:46
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9921-1117+19.htm

Re^3: Endlessly fascinating . . but WRONG

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 1, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
But no, no connection at all, except that of coïncidence . . My copy of the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue, which I'm pretty sure I first heard of here, says "gull" was an early thieves' cant for the mark, perhaps from the habit of young gulls to snap up anything within reach.  So the "gull"/"guile" connection, while obvious, appears to be just plain wrong.

If in doubt, refer to the OED - the dictionary founded on 'historical principles':

gull, v. Related to gull n.3, but it is uncertain whether as derivative or as source; in the latter case, this verb may be a transferred use of gull v.1; compare similar uses of stuff , cram ; this supposition is favoured by some early examples, e.g. quot. 1609 at sense 1.
1. trans. To make a gull of; to dupe, cheat, befool, ‘take in’, deceive. Also absol., to practise cheating.
a1550 Hye Way to Spyttel Ho. 427 in W. C. Hazlitt Remains Early Pop. Poetry Eng. IV. 45 They..do but gull, and folow beggery, Feynyng true doyng by ypocrysy.
. . 1609 Shakespeare Sonnets lxxxvi. sig. F2v, That affable familiar ghost Which nightly gulls him with intelligence.’

‘gul , n.3 Of doubtful and perhaps mixed origin; sense 1 would be natural as a transferred use of gull n.2, but it is also possible that the noun ay be gull v.3 to delude, and that this verb may be an application of gull v.1 2 to gorge . .
1. A credulous person; one easily imposed upon; a dupe, simpleton, fool . .

‘gull v.1 ? gull n.4 Compare Dutch gullen ‘absorbere, ingurgitare, vorare’ (Kilian) and obsolete French engouler. Obs.
1. a. trans. To swallow, guzzle . . ‘


Message 50e5a913p13-9922-453+18.htm, number 127608, was edited on Thu Mar 2 at 07:33:45
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9922-437+18.htm

Gull 3,1 and 4, gool and guile

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 1, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
But no, no connection at all, except that of coïncidence . . My copy of the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue, which I'm pretty sure I first heard of here, says "gull" was an early thieves' cant for the mark, perhaps from the habit of young gulls to snap up anything within reach.  So the "gull"/"guile" connection, while obvious, appears to be just plain wrong.
.........................
If in doubt, refer to the OED - the dictionary founded on 'historical principles':

'gull, v.3    Related to gull n.3, but it is uncertain whether as derivative or as source; in the latter case, this verb may be a transferred use of gull v.1; compare similar uses of stuff , cram ; this supposition is favoured by some early examples, e.g. quot. 1609 at sense 1.
1. trans. To make a gull of; to dupe, cheat, befool, ‘take in’, deceive. Also absol., to practise cheating.
a1550   Hye Way to Spyttel Ho. 427 in W. C. Hazlitt Remains Early Pop. Poetry Eng. IV. 45   They..do but gull, and folow beggery, Feynyng true doyng by ypocrysy.
. . 1609   Shakespeare Sonnets lxxxvi. sig. F2v,   That affable familiar ghost Which nightly gulls him with intelligence.’

‘gull , n.3   Of doubtful and perhaps mixed origin; sense 1 would be natural as a transferred use of gull n.2, but it is also possible that the noun  ay be   gull v.3 to delude, and that this verb may be an application of gull v.1 2 to gorge .  .
1. A credulous person; one easily imposed upon; a dupe, simpleton, fool . .

‘g ll  v.1 ?   gull n.4 Compare Dutch gullen ‘absorbere, ingurgitare, vorare’ (Kilian) and obsolete French engouler. Obs.
1. a. trans. To swallow, guzzle . . ‘ P>'gull, n.4 Variant of gool n. . .
†1. a. The throat, gullet. Obs. . '

'gool, n. Anglo-Norman gole . .
1. A small stream, a ditch; an outlet for water, a sluice.'

which has no connection to

'guile, n. Old French guile . . presumably of Germanic origin . .
1. Insidious cunning, deceit, treachery.'

[ This message was edited on Thu Mar 2 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9922-507+18.htm, number 127608, was edited on Thu Mar 2 at 08:27:45
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9922-453+18.htm

Gull 3,1 and 4, gool and guile

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 1, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
But no, no connection at all, except that of coïncidence . . My copy of the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue, which I'm pretty sure I first heard of here, says "gull" was an early thieves' cant for the mark, perhaps from the habit of young gulls to snap up anything within reach.  So the "gull"/"guile" connection, while obvious, appears to be just plain wrong.
.........................
If in doubt, refer to A New English Dictionary on Historical Principles - aka the OED:

'gull, v.3    Related to gull n.3, but it is uncertain whether as derivative or as source; in the latter case, this verb may be a transferred use of gull v.1; compare similar uses of stuff , cram ; this supposition is favoured by some early examples, e.g. quot. 1609 at sense 1.
1. trans. To make a gull of; to dupe, cheat, befool, ‘take in’, deceive. Also absol., to practise cheating.
a1550   Hye Way to Spyttel Ho. 427 in W. C. Hazlitt Remains Early Pop. Poetry Eng. IV. 45   They..do but gull, and folow beggery, Feynyng true doyng by ypocrysy.
. . 1609   Shakespeare Sonnets lxxxvi. sig. F2v,   That affable familiar ghost Which nightly gulls him with intelligence.’

‘gull , n.3   Of doubtful and perhaps mixed origin; sense 1 would be natural as a transferred use of gull n.2, but it is also possible that the noun  ay be   gull v.3 to delude, and that this verb may be an application of gull v.1 2 to gorge .  .
1. A credulous person; one easily imposed upon; a dupe, simpleton, fool . .

‘g ll  v.1 ?     gull n.4 Compare Dutch gullen ‘absorbere, ingurgitare, vorare’ (Kilian) and obsolete French engouler. Obs.
1. a. trans. To swallow, guzzle . . ‘ P>'gull, n.4    Variant of gool n. . .
†1. a. The throat, gullet. Obs. .   '

'gool, n.   Anglo-Norman gole . .
1. A small stream, a ditch; an outlet for water, a sluice.'

which has no connection to

'guile, n.   Old French guile . . presumably of Germanic origin . .
1. Insidious cunning, deceit, treachery.'

[ This message was edited on Thu Mar 2 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9922-606-90.htm, number 127609, was posted on Thu Mar 2 at 10:05:47
Meet 'Silent Hunter'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


- China's New 'Armored Vehicle Slicing' Laser Gun:

The Silent Hunter laser is powerful enough to cut through light vehicle armor at up to a kilometer away.

[www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-01/meet-silent-hunter-chinas-new-armored-vehicle-slicing-laser-gun]

The comments offer a variety of opinions on this novelty.


Message 50e5a913p13-9923-445+17.htm, number 127610, was posted on Fri Mar 3 at 07:25:46
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9920-1000+1a.htm

Endlessly is the mot juste!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Feb 28, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Interesting:  I caught "flibutors" (highlighted below) and connected it with "freebooters" mentally but uncertainly; I intended to look it up.  Until I read the footnote I failed to make the connection with the Dutch vrijbuiter.  There's never an end to it.  Would that I could be one of of Poul Anderson's immortals, watching words change century after century!
...............................
Here's the OED discussion of the origins of freebooter and filibuster, unabridged:

filibuster, n. < The ultimate source is certainly the Dutch vrijbuiter* in Kilian vrij-bueter (see freebooter n.). It is not clear whether the 16th cent. English form flibutor, of which we have only one example, was taken from Dutch directly or through some foreign language.

Late in the 18th cent. the French form flibustier was adopted into English, and continued to be used, with occasional variations of spelling, until after the middle of the nineteenth century. About 1850–54, the form filibuster, < Spanish filibustero, began to be employed as the designation of certain adventurers who at that time were active in the W. Indies and Central America; and this has now superseded the earlier flibustier even with reference to the history of the 17th cent.

The mutual relation of the forms is involved in obscurity. It is possible that the corruption of fri- into fli- may be due to the influence of the word fly-boat n. (Dutch vlieboot, whence French flibot, Spanish flibote); but against this it may be urged that in our first quot. the word seems to be applied to marauders on land.

In French the form fribustier (which may be a corruption of English freebooter) occurs in Du Tertre Hist. des Ant-Isles (1667) III. 151; but flibustier is apparently first recorded in A. O. Oexmelin (Esquemeling) Hist. des Avanturiers (1686); this writer says that it comes from the English flibuster ‘corsair’; in the earlier ed. of the work in Dutch (1678) the word does not occur.

It is possible on the one hand that the corrupt form of the Dutch word may be of English origin, and may have been taken into French from its use in the English colonies in the W. Indies; or, on the other hand, that the French form arose in the European wars of the 16th cent., and is the immediate source of Garrard's flibutor.

In any case the insertion of the s probably originated in French as a mere sign of vowel-length, though from the Dictionnaire de Trévoux we learn that the s was already pronounced in 1704. In the Dict. étymologique of Ménage (who died in 1692), s.v. flibot, the form flibutier occurs, with the explanation (doubtless erroneous) ‘celui qui gouverne un flibot’. The Spanish filibustero is presumably < French flibustier.
………….
* freebooter, n. < Dutch vrijbuiter privateer, pirate, robber (1572) < vrijbuit prize, spoils, plunder (1575; chiefly in the phrase op vrijbuit varen to go capturing ships or plundering, op vrijbuit gaan , and vari nts; vrij free adj. + buit booty n.1;


Message 50e5a913p13-9923-835-90.htm, number 127611, was posted on Fri Mar 3 at 13:55:20
Alert! The dastardly Dutch are sailing a 90-ship fleet at Blighty

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


 photo Screen Shot 2017-03-03 at 18.50.32.png
The Dutch are preparing to invade English seas with a fleet of 90 vessels after a previous expedition boarded the Royal Navy’s flagship and stole the Royal Coat of Arms from her. In a celebration of Dutch Admiral De Ruyter’s 1667 raid on Chatham Dockyard, which resulted in English flagship HMS Royal Charles being boarded and ransacked by Dutch sailors, their modern-day civilian counterparts are planning a memorial cruise to Chatham.
 photo Screen Shot 2017-03-03 at 18.45.09.png
. . The English fleet, starved of money and manpower, could not afford to put to sea in numbers despite wreaking havoc on the Dutch in the previous year. Amongst other booty, the Dutch made off with the English royal coat of arms from fleet flagship HMS Royal Charles, which adorned the warship's stern. The ornate carving can be viewed in the Netherlands' Rijksmuseum today . .

[www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/24/dutch_sail_90_boat_fleet_chatham_battle_medway/]
[https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/en/collection/NG-MC-239]
[www.visitmedway.org/battle-of-medway]


Message 4588233100A-9923-1011-07.htm, number 127612, was posted on Fri Mar 3 at 16:51:30
Big dhow built

Eat dry


www.cnn.com/2017/03/01/middleeast/dubai-biggest-wooden-dhow/index.html

Message 46d1c40f00A-9924-924+06.htm, number 127613, was posted on Sat Mar 4 at 15:24:09
in reply to 4588233100A-9923-1011-07.htm

Holy Cow that's a Big Brown Dhow

Max


Alternate caption:

"Lord, what's a cubit?"


n Fri Mar 3, Eat dry wrote
---------------------------
>www.cnn.com/2017/03/01/middleeast/dubai-biggest-wooden-dhow/index.html


Message 50e5a913p13-9925-396+05.htm, number 127614, was posted on Sun Mar 5 at 06:36:14
in reply to 46d1c40f00A-9924-924+06.htm

Re: Holy Cow . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Mar 4, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Alternate caption:
"Lord, what's a cubit?"
..........

‘c bit, n. Latin cubitum . .
. . 2. An ancient measure of length derived from the forearm; varying at different times and places, but usually about 18–22 inches. Obs. exc. Hist. It is the cubitus of the Romans = Greek πῆχνς, Hebrew ammah, all which words meant primarily the forearm. The Roman cubit was 17·4”; the Egyptian 20·6“.
1382 Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) Matt. vi. 27 Who of ȝou thenkinge may putte to [v.r. adde] to his stature oo cubite? . .’
....
“And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.” (Genesis 6:15)


Message 50e5a913p13-9925-410+58.htm, number 127615, was posted on Sun Mar 5 at 06:50:50
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9923-835-90.htm

How Pepys heard the news

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Wednesday 12 June 1667:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-03-05 at 11.42.46.png
. . my mind is so sad and head full of this ill news that I cannot now set it down. A short visit here, my wife coming to me and so home, where all our hearts do now ake; for the newes is true, that the Dutch have broke the chaine and burned our ships, and particularly “The Royal Charles,” other particulars I know not, but most sad to be sure.

And, the truth is, I do fear so much that the whole kingdom is undone, that I do this night resolve to study with my father and wife what to do with the little that I have in money by me, for I give [up] all the rest that I have in the King’s hands, for Tangier, for lost.

So God help us! and God knows what disorders we may fall into, and whether any violence on this office, or perhaps some severity on our persons, as being reckoned by the silly people, or perhaps may, by policy of State, be thought fit to be condemned by the King and Duke of York, and so put to trouble; though, God knows! I have, in my own person, done my full duty, I am sure.

So having with much ado finished my business at the office, I home to consider with my father and wife of things, and then to supper and to bed with a heavy heart. The manner of my advising this night with my father was, I took him and my wife up to her chamber, and shut the door; and there told them the sad state of the times how we are like to be all undone; that I do fear some violence will be offered to this office, where all I have in the world is; and resolved upon sending it away — sometimes into the country — sometimes my father to lie in town, and have the gold with him at Sarah Giles’s, and with that resolution went to bed full of fear and fright, hardly slept all night.

[www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1667/06/12/]
…….
Monthly summary for June 1667:
The Dutch begin relentless naval attacks and victories against the English (8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 18, 27), who lack the ships and power to keep them at bay. Without any funds to pay them, and long overdue outstanding debts owed them, the seamen will not go forth to fight the Dutch and many people fear that they will defect, as they may get paid by the Dutch (14, 23, 25).

During these attacks the King sups with Lady Castlemaine (21) which further ignites the fury of the people. Blame is passed out as Pett is made a scapegoat .  .

During this turmoil Sam fears for his life and his finances. He wisely sends Elizabeth and his father to the country to hide his money (12, 13, 14), but is angry with the lack of care taken in this task (19, 20). He makes his will, splitting his belongings equally between his father and Elizabeth (13). Sam turns down Lord Sandwich’s request for a loan (17); with the banks in such disarray, he wants to protect his belongings .  .

[www.pepysdiary.com/diary/summary/1667/#m06]


Message 3250991cwd5-9925-473+05.htm, number 127616, was posted on Sun Mar 5 at 07:53:32
in reply to 4588233100A-9923-1011-07.htm

Riiiioght...

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


m.youtube.com/watch?v=bputeFGXEjA

Message 4086b31900A-9925-556+05.htm, number 127617, was posted on Sun Mar 5 at 09:17:42
in reply to 46d1c40f00A-9924-924+06.htm

Re: Holy Cow that's a Big Brown Dhow

YA


Built in Dubai I am sure it is quite luxuriously fitted out. A tony dhow, one might say. As it is built of wood, another reason to be worried about the beaver.
On Sat Mar 4, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Alternate caption:

>"Lord, what's a cubit?"
>
>
>n Fri Mar 3, Eat dry wrote
>---------------------------
>>www.cnn.com/2017/03/01/middleeast/dubai-biggest-wooden-dhow/index.html


Message 46d1c40f00A-9925-1048+05.htm, number 127618, was posted on Sun Mar 5 at 17:27:37
in reply to 4086b31900A-9925-556+05.htm

Re^2: Holy Cow that's a Big Brown Dhow

Max



yes, in Dubai they are keeping up the Dhow-Joneses

On Sun Mar 5, YA wrote
----------------------
>Built in Dubai I am sure it is quite luxuriously fitted out. A tony dhow, one might say. As it is built of wood, another reason to be worried about the beaver.
>On Sat Mar 4, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>Alternate caption:

>>"Lord, what's a cubit?"
>>
>>
>>n Fri Mar 3, Eat dry wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>www.cnn.com/2017/03/01/middleeast/dubai-biggest-wooden-dhow/index.html


Message 46d1c40f00A-9925-1049+05.htm, number 127619, was posted on Sun Mar 5 at 17:29:08
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9925-396+05.htm

Re^2: Holy Cow . .

Max



Did you pass your Turing Test and, if so, did you cheat?


On Sun Mar 5, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>On Sat Mar 4, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>Alternate caption:
>"Lord, what's a cubit?"
>..........
>

>‘c bit, n.   Latin cubitum . .
> . .  2. An ancient measure of length derived from the forearm; varying at different times and places, but usually about 18–22 inches. Obs. exc. Hist. It is the cubitus of the Romans = Greek πῆχνς, Hebrew ammah, all which words meant primarily the forearm. The Roman cubit was 17·4”; the Egyptian 20·6“.
>1382   Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) Matt. vi. 27   Who of ȝou thenkinge may putte to [v.r. adde] to his stature oo cubite? . .’
>....
>“And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.” (Genesis 6:15)


Message 18f7024d00A-9925-1083+05.htm, number 127620, was posted on Sun Mar 5 at 18:02:43
in reply to 46d1c40f00A-9925-1048+05.htm

Re^3: Holy Cow that's a Big Brown Dhow

Beached


Nicely played....



On Sun Mar 5, Max wrote
-----------------------
>>yes, in Dubai they are keeping up the Dhow-Joneses

>On Sun Mar 5, YA wrote
>----------------------
>>Built in Dubai I am sure it is quite luxuriously fitted out. A tony dhow, one might say. As it is built of wood, another reason to be worried about the beaver.
>>On Sat Mar 4, Max wrote
>>-----------------------
>>>Alternate caption:

>>>"Lord, what's a cubit?"
>>>
>>>
>>>n Fri Mar 3, Eat dry wrote
>>>---------------------------
>>>>www.cnn.com/2017/03/01/middleeast/dubai-biggest-wooden-dhow/index.html


Message 4981ca22cZn-9925-1098+05.htm, number 127621, was posted on Sun Mar 5 at 18:18:51
in reply to 4588233100A-9923-1011-07.htm

Speaking of dhows . . .

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


I recently spent  day in Zanzibar, a port call on an Indian Ocean cruise.  It was the most exotic among the seventeen ports we visited, in eleven countries.

There is a flourishing seaborne trade carried by dhows along Africa's east coast and Zanzibar's dhow harbor was fascinating.  It was jam-packed with wooden dhows, mostly sail-powered.  If one ignored the trucks on the dock and the plastic and metallic cargo containers (and the cell phones that most of the unoccupied workers were staring at), it was probably not very different from what Jack and Stephen would have seen in this part of the world.

The crowded harbor:
Dhow Harbour - Zanzibar


Fully loaded dhows:
Dhow Harbour - Zanzibar

Dhow Harbour - Zanzibar


Unloading a cargo of pineapples -- by hand, one at a time:  
MVI_2778

Many interesting smaller boats too:
Zanzibar

Zanzibar

MVI_2768




On Fri Mar 3, Eat dry wrote
---------------------------
>www.cnn.com/2017/03/01/middleeast/dubai-biggest-wooden-dhow/index.html


Message 4747f4808HW-9925-1383+05.htm, number 127622, was posted on Sun Mar 5 at 23:07:12
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9925-396+05.htm

Surely that's "πῆχυς"

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Looks like a typo in the Greek work; a nu in that position wouldn't result in a word, but an upsilon would be pretty normal.  Yes, Wikipedia says that's what it is.

On Sun Mar 5, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>

>‘c bit, n.   Latin cubitum . .
> . .  2. An ancient measure of length derived from the forearm; varying at different times and places, but usually about 18–22 inches. Obs. exc. Hist. It is the cubitus of the Romans = Greek πῆχνς, Hebrew ammah, all which words meant primarily the forearm. The Roman cubit was 17·4”; the Egyptian 20·6“.
>1382   Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) Matt. vi. 27   Who of ȝou thenkinge may putte to [v.r. adde] to his stature oo cubite? . .’
>....
>“And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.” (Genesis 6:15)

>On Sat Mar 4, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>Alternate caption:
>"Lord, what's a cubit?"


Message 50e5a913p13-9926-322+04.htm, number 127623, was posted on Mon Mar 6 at 05:22:34
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9925-1383+05.htm

Re: Surely that's "πῆχυς"

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Mar 5, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Looks like a typo in the Greek work; a nu in that position wouldn't result in a word, but an upsilon would be pretty normal.  Yes, Wikipedia says that's what it is.

The fault lies with how the characters are displayed. This screengrab shows (1) your post as seen by me, (2) my post as seen by me and (3) the OED as seen by me. I see the Greek word the same in all three:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-03-06 at 10.16.53.png


Message 50e5a913p13-9926-427-07.htm, number 127624, was posted on Mon Mar 6 at 07:06:58
No title!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


 photo Gaspee feb25.png

Message 50e5a913p13-9926-570+57.htm, number 127615, was edited on Mon Mar 6 at 09:30:43
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9925-410+58.htm

How Pepys heard the news

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Wednesday 12 June 1667:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-03-05 at 11.42.46.png
. . my mind is so sad and head full of this ill news that I cannot now set it down. A short visit here, my wife coming to me and so home, where all our hearts do now ake; for the newes is true, that the Dutch have broke the chaine and burned our ships, and particularly “The Royal Charles,” other particulars I know not, but most sad to be sure.

And, the truth is, I do fear so much that the whole kingdom is undone, that I do this night resolve to study with my father and wife what to do with the little that I have in money by me, for I give [up] all the rest that I have in the King’s hands, for Tangier, for lost.

So God help us! and God knows what disorders we may fall into, and whether any violence on this office, or perhaps some severity on our persons, as being reckoned by the silly people, or perhaps may, by policy of State, be thought fit to be condemned by the King and Duke of York, and so put to trouble; though, God knows! I have, in my own person, done my full duty, I am sure.

So having with much ado finished my business at the office, I home to consider with my father and wife of things, and then to supper and to bed with a heavy heart. The manner of my advising this night with my father was, I took him and my wife up to her chamber, and shut the door; and there told them the sad state of the times how we are like to be all undone; that I do fear some violence will be offered to this office, where all I have in the world is; and resolved upon sending it away — sometimes into the country — sometimes my father to lie in town, and have the gold with him at Sarah Giles’s, and with that resolution went to bed full of fear and fright, hardly slept all night.

[www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1667/06/12/]
…….
Monthly summary for June 1667:
The Dutch begin relentless naval attacks and victories against the English (8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 18, 27), who lack the ships and power to keep them at bay. Without any funds to pay them, and long overdue outstanding debts owed them, the seamen will not go forth to fight the Dutch and many people fear that they will defect, as they may get paid by the Dutch (14, 23, 25).

During these attacks the King sups with Lady Castlemaine (21) which further ignites the fury of the people. Blame is passed out as Pett is made a scapegoat .  .

During this turmoil Sam fears for his life and his finances. He wisely sends Elizabeth and his father to the country to hide his money (12, 13, 14), but is angry with the lack of care taken in this task (19, 20). He makes his will, splitting his belongings equally between his father and Elizabeth (13). Sam turns down Lord Sandwich’s request for a loan (17); with the banks in such disarray, he wants to protect his belongings .  .

[www.pepysdiary.com/diary/summary/1667/#m06]

[ This message was edited on Mon Mar 6 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-9926-715+04.htm, number 127625, was posted on Mon Mar 6 at 11:54:50
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9926-322+04.htm

Re^2: Surely that's "πῆχυς"

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Your screen shots show a different font, it's true—and a better one IMO—but it's still clear that the last two screen shots display a nu (looks like a Latin 'v') where the correct letter is an upsilon (looks more like an English 'u').  They're showing πῆχνς where the correct spelling is πῆχυς.

I accuse the OED of typos only with reluctance and a liberal dollop of self-doubt.  But there it is in black and white.

On Mon Mar 6, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>The fault lies with how the characters are displayed. This screengrab shows (1) your post as seen by me, (2) my post as seen by me and (3) the OED as seen by me. I see the Greek word the same in all three:
> photo Screen Shot 2017-03-06 at 10.16.53.png

>On Sun Mar 5, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Looks like a typo in the Greek work; a nu in that position wouldn't result in a word, but an upsilon would be pretty normal.  Yes, Wikipedia says that's what it is.


Message 4747f4808HW-9926-722+04.htm, number 127626, was posted on Mon Mar 6 at 12:02:29
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9925-1098+05.htm

Re: Speaking of dhows . . .

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I note that the workers unloading the pineapples are doing so with unprotected hands, casually tossing them around, yet it doesn't seem to me that the pineapples were "skinned" in any way.  Could be I missed it, but I suspect their hands are just hardened to it by long use?

Wait, on closer look these pineapples look subtly different from what I see in my grocery store.  Maybe a different species, easier to handle?

On Sun Mar 5, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>I recently spent  day in Zanzibar, a port call on an Indian Ocean cruise.  It was the most exotic among the seventeen ports we visited, in eleven countries.

>There is a flourishing seaborne trade carried by dhows along Africa's east coast and Zanzibar's dhow harbor was fascinating.  It was jam-packed with wooden dhows, mostly sail-powered.  If one ignored the trucks on the dock and the plastic and metallic cargo containers (and the cell phones that most of the unoccupied workers were staring at), it was probably not very different from what Jack and Stephen would have seen in this part of the world.

>Unloading a cargo of pineapples -- by hand, one at a time:  
>MVI_2778

>On Fri Mar 3, Eat dry wrote
>---------------------------
>>www.cnn.com/2017/03/01/middleeast/dubai-biggest-wooden-dhow/index.html


Message 4588233100A-9927-419-07.htm, number 127627, was posted on Tue Mar 7 at 06:59:32
Mating season on Galapagos: Blue-Footed Booby's

Seth [with a jerk f the thumb]


www.nytimes.com/2017/03/06/science/galapagos-blue-footed-boobies.html?_r=1&emc=edit_mbaa_20170306&nl=mo

Message 182d672f0Nn-9927-539+03.htm, number 127628, was posted on Tue Mar 7 at 08:59:05
in reply to 4588233100A-9923-1011-07.htm

Many's the night...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


...our 11 meter RHIB whipped toward the mouth of the Shatt Al Arab -- first passing two oil terminals illuminated like Christmas trees, and then winding among innumerable gliding nests of totally darkened dhows that showed no running lights, in fact, no lights at all, knowing some concealed 50 cal machine guns -- and dreamt of toasted cheese.

Our only solace was we too were totally darkened, moving at confoundingly high speeds, and were more heavily armed.

r,

Caltrop


Message 4588233100A-9927-799-07.htm, number 127629, was posted on Tue Mar 7 at 13:19:22
Hey Bruce, is it usually to have a pommy skipper? "HMAS Toowoomba" in Persian Gulf

University of Woolamaloo


m.youtube.com/watch?v=dzLIKkYmbGY

Message 50e5a913p13-9927-843+03.htm, number 127630, was posted on Tue Mar 7 at 14:03:43
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9926-715+04.htm

Re^3: Surely that's "πῆχυς"

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Mar 6, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Your screen shots show a different font, it's true—and a better one IMO—but it's still clear that the last two screen shots display a nu (looks like a Latin 'v') where the correct letter is an upsilon (looks more like an English 'u').  They're showing πῆχνς where the correct spelling is πῆχυς.

>I accuse the OED of typos only with reluctance and a liberal dollop of self-doubt.  But there it is in black and white.

>On Mon Mar 6, Chrístõ wrote
>---------------------------
>>The fault lies with how the characters are displayed. This screengrab shows (1) your post as seen by me, (2) my post as seen by me and (3) the OED as seen by me. I see the Greek word the same in all three:
>> photo Screen Shot 2017-03-06 at 10.16.53.png

I agree - having found this useful crib showing both nu (= n) and upsilon (= u):

I suggest you write to the OED at: oed.uk@oup.com without delay.


Message 4981ca22cZn-9927-922+03.htm, number 127631, was posted on Tue Mar 7 at 15:21:36
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9927-843+03.htm

The Greek Alphabet

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


I don't know how the English names for the letters of the Greek alphabet, and their pronunciations, as posted by Chrístõ below, were determined.  However, in modern Greek the names and pronunciations of many of the letters is quite different.  

Some examples:

What we call Beta, the Greeks call "Vita" (veeta) and it has the sound of V.

Gamma has a sound that doesn't exist in English, sort of a guttural G.

Delta has the sound of TH as in then.  (The sound D is obtained from NT (Nu Tau).)

Upsilon has the sound ee, as in see.  Eta and Iota have the same sound and there are several diphthongs that also produce this sound.  It's quite confusing.

Omicron and Omega have the same sound -- O as in bone.

Mark


On Tue Mar 7, Chrístõ posted (snip)
---------------------------
>I agree - having found this useful crib showing both nu (= n) and upsilon (= u):
>


Message 4981ca22cZn-9927-1065+03.htm, number 127631, was edited on Tue Mar 7 at 17:46:03
and replaces message 4981ca22cZn-9927-922+03.htm

The Greek Alphabet

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


I don't know how the English names for the letters of the Greek alphabet, and their pronunciations, as posted by Chrístõ below, were determined.  However, in modern Greek the names and pronunciations of many of the letters are quite different.  

Some examples:

What we call Beta, the Greeks call "Vita" (veeta) and it has the sound of V.

Gamma has a sound that doesn't exist in English, sort of a guttural G.

Delta has the sound of TH as in then.  (The sound D is obtained from NT (Nu Tau).)

Upsilon has the sound ee, as in see.  Eta and Iota have the same sound and there are several diphthongs that also produce this sound.  It's quite confusing.

Omicron and Omega have the same sound -- O as in bone.

Mark


On Tue Mar 7, Chrístõ posted (snip)
---------------------------
>I agree - having found this useful crib showing both nu (= n) and upsilon (= u):
>

[ This message was edited on Tue Mar 7 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9927-1191+03.htm, number 127632, was posted on Tue Mar 7 at 19:50:44
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9927-1065+03.htm

Re: The Greek Alphabet

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Mar 7, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>I don't know how the English names for the letters of the Greek alphabet, and their pronunciations, as posted by Chrístõ below, were determined.  However, in modern Greek the names and pronunciations of many of the letters are quite different.  

It comes from jesuschristsavior.net and is therefore the Greek that the New Testament was written in. I was not aware of the changes that you describe, having never given this matter a moment's thought before.


Message 4747f4808HW-9928-35+03.htm, number 127633, was posted on Wed Mar 8 at 00:34:42
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9927-1191+03.htm

Re^2: The Greek Alphabet

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


It doesn't affect our discussion, Christõ, but he's right.  After college Greek I thought I'd try modern Greek, and my first and slightly uncomfortable discovery is that although many words have remained the same, the pronunciation is very different from what I was taught about classical Greek.  Some more differences:

And no, I don't speak modern Greek, or even read much of it.  And when I try to read it, I gather I sound like a priest, that is, unless I concentrate very hard I automatically give it the church pronunciation.

By the way, my understanding is that koine or "common" Greek was a trade lingo spoken around the Mediterranean; the grammar was much the same but the vocabulary was cut back quite a bit.  The New Testament has a lot of variety; the apostle John wrote in a very simple style and a very limited vocabulary—deliberately, as far as I can tell—while Paul requires me to look up every fourth or fifth word.  Luke is somewhere in between.  I find Peter very difficult; the image I always had of him as an ignorant fisherman seems to be mistaken, but I suspect he just isn't a very clear writer.  "Wasn't", I should say; no doubt he's much improved now.

On Tue Mar 7, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>It comes from jesuschristsavior.net and is therefore the Greek that the New Testament was written in. I was not aware of the changes that you describe, having never given this matter a moment's thought before.

>On Tue Mar 7, Mark Henry wrote
>------------------------------
>>I don't know how the English names for the letters of the Greek alphabet, and their pronunciations, as posted by Chrístõ below, were determined.  However, in modern Greek the names and pronunciations of many of the letters are quite different.  


Message 4747f4808HW-9928-41+03.htm, number 127633, was edited on Wed Mar 8 at 00:40:50
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-9928-35+03.htm

Re^2: The Greek Alphabet

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


It doesn't affect our discussion, Christõ, but he's right.  After college Greek I thought I'd try modern Greek, and my first and slightly uncomfortable discovery is that although many words have remained the same, the pronunciation is very different from what I was taught about classical Greek.  Some more differences:

And no, I don't speak modern Greek, or even read much of it.  And when I try to read it, I gather I sound like a priest, that is, unless I concentrate very hard I automatically give it the church pronunciation.

By the way, my understanding is that koine or "common" Greek was a trade lingo spoken around the Mediterranean; the grammar was much the same but the vocabulary was cut back quite a bit.  The New Testament has a lot of variety; the apostle John wrote in a very simple style and a very limited vocabulary—deliberately, as far as I can tell—while Paul requires me to look up every fourth or fifth word.  Luke is somewhere in between.  I find Peter very difficult; the image I always had of him as an ignorant fisherman seems to be mistaken, but I suspect he just isn't a very clear writer.  "Wasn't", I should say; no doubt he's much improved now.

On Tue Mar 7, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>It comes from jesuschristsavior.net and is therefore the Greek that the New Testament was written in. I was not aware of the changes that you describe, having never given this matter a moment's thought before.

>On Tue Mar 7, Mark Henry wrote
>------------------------------
>>I don't know how the English names for the letters of the Greek alphabet, and their pronunciations, as posted by Chrístõ below, were determined.  However, in modern Greek the names and pronunciations of many of the letters are quite different.  

[ This message was edited on Wed Mar 8 by the author ]


Message 4981ca22cZn-9928-852+02.htm, number 127634, was posted on Wed Mar 8 at 14:12:40
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9926-722+04.htm

Pineapples

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


I too noticed that the workers were barehanded and wondered about the effect on their hands.  However, I did not inspect the pineapples to determine whether they were different from those we typically see.  They certainly didn't look different from afar and I am amused at the fact that you think that you see a difference.  Anyway, a brief Internet search didn't indicate that any variety of pineapple is less rough-skinned than another.

The dhow harbor was not on any tourist itinerary; I just wandered in on my own and tried to stay out of everyone's way.  It was very busy, in a somewhat disorganized fashion, and I was dodging trucks, carts, and people handling cargo along the relatively narrow confines of the dock and trying not to trip over mooring lines every few yards.  I was the only "non-local" person there and, while I didn't feel threatened, I didn't feel particularly welcome.  I'm certainly glad that I visited, though, as it was the most memorable experience during a 5-week trip to many interesting places.


On Mon Mar 6, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>I note that the workers unloading the pineapples are doing so with unprotected hands, casually tossing them around, yet it doesn't seem to me that the pineapples were "skinned" in any way.  Could be I missed it, but I suspect their hands are just hardened to it by long use?

>Wait, on closer look these pineapples look subtly different from what I see in my grocery store.  Maybe a different species, easier to handle?

>On Sun Mar 5, Mark Henry wrote
>------------------------------
>>I recently spent  day in Zanzibar, a port call on an Indian Ocean cruise.  It was the most exotic among the seventeen ports we visited, in eleven countries.

>>There is a flourishing seaborne trade carried by dhows along Africa's east coast and Zanzibar's dhow harbor was fascinating.  It was jam-packed with wooden dhows, mostly sail-powered.  If one ignored the trucks on the dock and the plastic and metallic cargo containers (and the cell phones that most of the unoccupied workers were staring at), it was probably not very different from what Jack and Stephen would have seen in this part of the world.

>>Unloading a cargo of pineapples -- by hand, one at a time:  
>>MVI_2778

>>On Fri Mar 3, Eat dry wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>www.cnn.com/2017/03/01/middleeast/dubai-biggest-wooden-dhow/index.html


Message 4747f4808HW-9928-1038+02.htm, number 127635, was posted on Wed Mar 8 at 17:18:30
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9928-852+02.htm

Re: Pineapples

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


You strike a chord with me.  The one time I was overseas, a few days in Paris, yes, we saw some of the usual tourist sites etc.  I'm not sorry to have spent some hours in the Louvre; but I remember with special pleasure wandering around the city without agenda.  I sat quite a while on a bench near a busy intersection, just watching: the handling of a fender-bender a few blocks from me (the police and the motorists involved shook hands all around before speaking to each other), a mostly unsuccessful attempt to find the traffic signals that clearly existed though I couldn't see them, the percentage of cars with significant dings in their body (Parisians evidently feel as I do about wasting money on fixing mere dents), just plain unorganized rubbernecking.

I took another look at the video and you may be right.  Still, some of the larger pineapples on the dock look to have scales that remind me of a little of a whatsis, a pangolin; I couldn't see anything actually sticking out.  Then again, at that resolution I probably wouldn't.

On Wed Mar 8, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>I too noticed that the workers were barehanded and wondered about the effect on their hands.  However, I did not inspect the pineapples to determine whether they were different from those we typically see.  They certainly didn't look different from afar and I am amused at the fact that you think that you see a difference.  Anyway, a brief Internet search didn't indicate that any variety of pineapple is less rough-skinned than another.

>The dhow harbor was not on any tourist itinerary; I just wandered in on my own and tried to stay out of everyone's way.  It was very busy, in a somewhat disorganized fashion, and I was dodging trucks, carts, and people handling cargo along the relatively narrow confines of the dock and trying not to trip over mooring lines every few yards.  I was the only "non-local" person there and, while I didn't feel threatened, I didn't feel particularly welcome.  I'm certainly glad that I visited, though, as it was the most memorable experience during a 5-week trip to many interesting places.

>On Mon Mar 6, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>I note that the workers unloading the pineapples are doing so with unprotected hands, casually tossing them around, yet it doesn't seem to me that the pineapples were "skinned" in any way.  Could be I missed it, but I suspect their hands are just hardened to it by long use?

>>Wait, on closer look these pineapples look subtly different from what I see in my grocery store.  Maybe a different species, easier to handle?

>>On Sun Mar 5, Mark Henry wrote
>>------------------------------
>>>I recently spent  day in Zanzibar, a port call on an Indian Ocean cruise.  It was the most exotic among the seventeen ports we visited, in eleven countries.

>>>There is a flourishing seaborne trade carried by dhows along Africa's east coast and Zanzibar's dhow harbor was fascinating.  It was jam-packed with wooden dhows, mostly sail-powered.  If one ignored the trucks on the dock and the plastic and metallic cargo containers (and the cell phones that most of the unoccupied workers were staring at), it was probably not very different from what Jack and Stephen would have seen in this part of the world.

>>>Unloading a cargo of pineapples -- by hand, one at a time:  
>>>MVI_2778

>>>On Fri Mar 3, Eat dry wrote
>>>---------------------------
>>>>www.cnn.com/2017/03/01/middleeast/dubai-biggest-wooden-dhow/index.html


Message 4588233100A-9928-1064-07.htm, number 127636, was posted on Wed Mar 8 at 17:44:08
Azure Window of Malta-Gozo Island

Whoreson Beast


w

Message 4747f4808HW-9928-1073+54.htm, number 127637, was posted on Wed Mar 8 at 17:53:00
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9922-606-90.htm

Re: Meet 'Silent Hunter'

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Ok, but how fast?  If it cuts through light armor a km away in 1.2 seconds, that's very impressive; if it takes 90 seconds its battlefield utility is questionable.  (Anyone who actually knows something about battlefield conditions should feel free to scoff disrespectfully and correct me.)

On Thu Mar 2, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>- China's New 'Armored Vehicle Slicing' Laser Gun:
>
>The Silent Hunter laser is powerful enough to cut through light vehicle armor at up to a kilometer away.

>[www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-01/meet-silent-hunter-chinas-new-armored-vehicle-slicing-laser-gun]

>The comments offer a variety of opinions on this novelty.


Message 4747f4808HW-9928-1079+07.htm, number 127638, was posted on Wed Mar 8 at 17:59:05
in reply to 4588233100A-9928-1064-07.htm

So where's the collapse?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


If the news is that the arch collapsed, you'd think that at least one of the article's photos would show the "after" situation.  Unless I'm missing something, every one of these are the "before".

On Wed Mar 8, Whoreson Beast wrote
----------------------------------
>w


Message 50e5a913p13-9928-1171+07.htm, number 127639, was posted on Wed Mar 8 at 19:31:23
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9928-1079+07.htm

Look again at the 2nd pic, taken today Mar 08

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 8, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>If the news is that the arch collapsed, you'd think that at least one of the article's photos would show the "after" situation.  Unless I'm missing something, every one of these are the "before".

>On Wed Mar 8, Whoreson Beast wrote
>----------------------------------
>>w


Message 50e5a913p13-9928-1187+02.htm, number 127640, was posted on Wed Mar 8 at 19:47:47
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9928-852+02.htm

Re: Pineapples

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 8, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>I too noticed that the workers were bare handed and wondered about the effect on their hands . .

No doubt their hands, like a sailor's feet, had been hardened by  their work: this is what is meant by 'the horny hands of toil':

‘ . . New times demand new measures and new men;
The world advances, and in time outgrows
The laws that in our fathers' day were best;
And, doubtless, after us, some purer scheme
Will be shaped out by wiser men than we,
Made wiser by the steady growth of truth.

We cannot hale Utopia on by force;
But better, almost, be at work in sin,
Than in a brute inaction browse and sleep.
No man is born into the world whose work
Is not born with him; there is always work,
And tools to work withal, for those who will;

And blessed are the horny hands of toil!
The busy world stoves angrily aside
The man who stands with arms akimbo set,
Until occasion tells him what to do;
And he who waits to have his task marked out
Shall die and leave his errand unfulfilled . . ‘

A Glance Behind The Curtain - Poem by James Russell Lowell

[www.poemhunter.com/poem/a-glance-behind-the-curtain/]


Message 4a57660300A-9929-642-90.htm, number 127641, was posted on Thu Mar 9 at 10:42:39
“Bolsheviks are a bore” – Recommendation: "A Gentleman in Moscow"

Uncle Duke


I just finished Amor Towles’s “A Gentleman In Moscow.”  Towles’ protagonist is Count Alexander Ilyich Rostov who is living in Paris at the start of the Russian revolution. Unlike many of his countryman, the count returns home out of love of his country and takes up residence in Moscow’s swankiest hotel.

Eventually, the communist regime sweeps him up and rather than summarily shooting him, he is sentenced to spend his remaining days inside the hotel. He can never step outside on pain of death.
This gives him a unique perspective on the changes sweeping across his country over several decades.

While the subject matter is interesting, Towles has a very breezy and lite style that held my interest as much as the story. Here is a review from the NYT

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/25/books/review/amor-towles-gentleman-in-moscow.html


Message 50e5a913p13-9929-782+54.htm, number 127642, was posted on Thu Mar 9 at 13:02:39
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9926-570+57.htm

Postscript: Gold - lost and found

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Thursday 10 October 1667

(Pepy’s father had buried his money in his garden by night, so that the neighbours wouldn’t know about it. When the panic was over, Pepys came to retrieve it):

. .  And he being gone, and what company there was, my father and I, with a dark lantern; it being now night, into the garden with my wife, and there went about our great work to dig up my gold. But, Lord! what a tosse I was for some time in, that they could not justly tell where it was; that I begun heartily to sweat, and be angry, that they should not agree better upon the place, and at last to fear that it was gone but by and by poking with a spit, we found it, and then begun with a spade to lift up the ground.

But, good God! to see how sillily they did it, not half a foot under ground, and in the sight of the world from a hundred places, if anybody by accident were near hand, and within sight of a neighbour’s window, and their hearing also, being close by: only my father says that he saw them all gone to church before he begun the work, when he laid the money, but that do not excuse it to me.

But I was out of my wits almost, and the more from that, upon my lifting up the earth with the spade, I did discern that I had scattered the pieces of gold round about the ground among the grass and loose earth; and taking up the iron head-pieces wherein they were put, I perceive the earth was got among the gold, and wet, so that the bags were all rotten, and all the notes, that I could not tell what in the world to say to it, not knowing how to judge what was wanting, or what had been lost by Gibson in his coming down: which, all put together, did make me mad.

At last I was forced to take up the head-pieces, dirt and all, and as many of the scattered pieces as I could with the dirt discern by the candlelight, and carry them up into my brother’s chamber, and there locke them up till I had eat a little supper: and then, all people going to bed, W. Hewer and I did all alone, with several pails of water and basins, at last wash the dirt off of the pieces, and parted the pieces and the dirt, and then begun to tell [them];

By a note which I had of the value of the whole in my pocket, I do find that there was short above a hundred pieces, which did make me mad; and considering that the neighbour’s house was so near that we could not suppose we could speak one to another in the garden at the place where the gold lay — especially my father being deaf — but they must know what we had been doing on, I feared that they might in the night come and gather some pieces and prevent us the next morning.

So W. Hewer and I out again about midnight, for it was now grown so late, and there by candlelight did make shift to gather forty-five pieces more. And so in, and to cleanse them: and by this time it was past two in the morning; and so to bed, with my mind pretty quiet to think that I have recovered so many. And then to bed, and I lay in the trundle-bed, the girl being gone to bed to my wife, and there lay in some disquiet all night, telling of the clock till it was daylight.

www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1667/10/10/
……..
Friday 11 October 1667
And then rose and called W. Hewer, and he and I, with pails and a sieve, did lock ourselves into the garden, and there gather all the earth about the place into pails, and then sift those pails in one of the summer-houses, just as they do for dyamonds in other parts of the world; and there, to our great content, did with much trouble by nine o’clock (and by the time we emptied several pails and could not find one), we did make the last night’s forty-five up to seventy-nine

So that we are come to about twenty or thirty of what I think the true number should be; and perhaps within less; and of them I may reasonably think that Mr. Gibson might lose some: so that I am pretty well satisfied that my loss is not great, and do bless God that it is so well,1 and do leave my father to make a second examination of the dirt, which he promises he will do, and, poor man, is mightily troubled for this accident, but I declared myself very well satisfied, and so indeed I am.

And my mind is at rest, it being but an accident, which is unusual; and so gives me some kind of content to remember how painful it is sometimes to keep money, as well as to get it, and how doubtful (= worried) I was how to keep it all night, and how to secure it to London: and so got all my gold put up in bags . .

www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1667/10/11/


Message 4588233100A-9929-790+06.htm, number 127643, was posted on Thu Mar 9 at 13:10:37
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9928-1171+07.htm

Another landmark felled by storm

Whoreson Beast


en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Cabin_Tree

Message cedfbdfannW-9929-1263+06.htm, number 127644, was posted on Thu Mar 9 at 21:02:55
in reply to 4588233100A-9928-1064-07.htm

Re: Azure Window of Malta-Gozo Island

Tumblehome
benbarnes@sympatico.ca


OK.  This is now my third attempt to post (for some reason, it keeps getting lost and I'm redirected to the NYT article)

I'm spending about a week in Malta this September.  First trip.  I'm really looking forward to it - for an amateur student of ancient history, medieval history, Royal Navy stuff and WW2 it's hard to imagine anywhere with more sites per square km.  I'll post some pictures of the dockyard - preliminary research suggests that there are still some RN used structures from our era left and a decent Maritime Museum.  I'm also told that although the Azure Window is gone there is another similar (but more remote) structure still standing on Gozo.  I'll have lots of time to find it

TH


Message 591e316400A-9930-174+59.htm, number 127645, was posted on Fri Mar 10 at 02:54:11
in reply to 4a57660300A-9929-642-90.htm

Re: “Bolsheviks are a bore” – Recommendation: "A Gentleman in Moscow"

NiceRedTrousers


Thanks for the recommendation - just reserved it at my library.
NRT


On Thu Mar 9, Uncle Duke wrote
------------------------------
>I just finished Amor Towles’s “A Gentleman In Moscow.”  Towles’ protagonist is Count Alexander Ilyich Rostov who is living in Paris at the start of the Russian revolution. Unlike many of his countryman, the count returns home out of love of his country and takes up residence in Moscow’s swankiest hotel.

>Eventually, the communist regime sweeps him up and rather than summarily shooting him, he is sentenced to spend his remaining days inside the hotel. He can never step outside on pain of death.
>This gives him a unique perspective on the changes sweeping across his country over several decades.

>While the subject matter is interesting, Towles has a very breezy and lite style that held my interest as much as the story. Here is a review from the NYT

>https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/25/books/review/amor-towles-gentleman-in-moscow.html
>


Message 46d3413400A-9930-372+59.htm, number 127646, was posted on Fri Mar 10 at 06:11:56
in reply to 591e316400A-9930-174+59.htm

Re^2: “Bolsheviks are a bore” – Recommendation: "A Gentleman in Moscow"

Max


Damn it now I had to buy another book.


n Fri Mar 10, NiceRedTrousers wrote
------------------------------------
>Thanks for the recommendation - just reserved it at my library.
>NRT
>
>
>On Thu Mar 9, Uncle Duke wrote
>------------------------------
>>I just finished Amor Towles’s “A Gentleman In Moscow.”  Towles’ protagonist is Count Alexander Ilyich Rostov who is living in Paris at the start of the Russian revolution. Unlike many of his countryman, the count returns home out of love of his country and takes up residence in Moscow’s swankiest hotel.

>>Eventually, the communist regime sweeps him up and rather than summarily shooting him, he is sentenced to spend his remaining days inside the hotel. He can never step outside on pain of death.
>>This gives him a unique perspective on the changes sweeping across his country over several decades.

>>While the subject matter is interesting, Towles has a very breezy and lite style that held my interest as much as the story. Here is a review from the NYT

>>https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/25/books/review/amor-towles-gentleman-in-moscow.html
>>


Message 47b879ac00A-9930-812+05.htm, number 127647, was posted on Fri Mar 10 at 13:32:13
in reply to cedfbdfannW-9929-1263+06.htm

Re^2: Azure Window of Malta-Gozo Island

Don Seltzer


While in Valletta, see if you can take a photo that reproduces the cover of Treason's Harbor.

On Thu Mar 9, Tumblehome wrote
------------------------------
>OK.  This is now my third attempt to post (for some reason, it keeps getting lost and I'm redirected to the NYT article)

>I'm spending about a week in Malta this September.  First trip.  I'm really looking forward to it - for an amateur student of ancient history, medieval history, Royal Navy stuff and WW2 it's hard to imagine anywhere with more sites per square km.  I'll post some pictures of the dockyard - preliminary research suggests that there are still some RN used structures from our era left and a decent Maritime Museum.  I'm also told that although the Azure Window is gone there is another similar (but more remote) structure still standing on Gozo.  I'll have lots of time to find it

>TH


Message 6cadb110gpf-9932-709-07.htm, number 127648, was posted on Sun Mar 12 at 11:49:20
Laurie Lee

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


'As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning' is a lovely travel story - a  young man's tramping adventure in England and then Spain in 1935/36. Young Laurie arrives at Algeciras, after walking across Spain from Vigo. He feels he must at least see Gibraltar, and takes the ferry across the bay.

'I thought I'd drop in for the afternoon, present my passport, and have some tea. The old paddle-wheel ferry carried me across the water, smooth as oil and leaping with dolphins, while I enjoyed the brief passage of tax-free drinking, with brandy a penny a glass.

'To travellers from England, Gibraltar is an Oriental bazaar, but coming from Spain I found it more like Torquay - the same helmeted police, tall angular women and a cosy smell of provincial groceries. I'd forgotten how much the atmosphere at home depended on white bread, soap and soup-squares. Even in the conclave of Maltese-Genoese-Indians, one sensed the pressure of cooking steam.

'My welcome at the colony was not what I expected. The port officials looked me up and down with doubt. The rest of the travellers were passed briskly through the barrier while I was put on one side like an infected apple. Clipped phone calls were made to remoter authorities, warily seeking advice. 'Oh, his passport's all right. No, he's not broke, exactly. Well, you know.... Well, sort of...Yes...'

'Finally I was taken in a truck to see the chief of police, a worried but kindly man. 'But who are you?' he kept saying. 'It's rather difficult here. You must try to realise our position. It doesn't do, you know - if you'll forgive my saying so.'

'Anyway, it was agreed that I could stay for a day or two, if I slept in the police station, where they could keep an eye on me. So I was given a clean little cell, a cake of soap, and I played dominoes with the prisoners in the evenings. I wasn't under arrest, exactly; I was allowed out in the daytime so long as I reported back at night. But the restriction was tedious, and after a few days of bacon and eggs, a policeman conducted me back to the frontier.'


Message 46d1c13f00A-9932-825+07.htm, number 127649, was posted on Sun Mar 12 at 13:45:30
in reply to 6cadb110gpf-9932-709-07.htm

Re: Laurie Lee

Max Trainer



Great quote. hard to see how, but I do think this is the first time Laurie Lee had been brought up on the forum.

"As I walked out.." is part 2 of 3 books. The first is "Cider with Rosie" wherein the author was a bit too young for me. But then this might be a real find for the Brits among us. Childhood in Wales.
"As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning" is fine as a stand alone. But the quote below takes on a different meaning (innocence about to be lost?) when you know that the next book "A Moment of War" is the authors memoir of life the following year when he enlists in the Spanish Civil War.



On Sun Mar 12, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>'As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning' is a lovely travel story - a  young man's tramping adventure in England and then Spain in 1935/36. Young Laurie arrives at Algeciras, after walking across Spain from Vigo. He feels he must at least see Gibraltar, and takes the ferry across the bay.

>'I thought I'd drop in for the afternoon, present my passport, and have some tea. The old paddle-wheel ferry carried me across the water, smooth as oil and leaping with dolphins, while I enjoyed the brief passage of tax-free drinking, with brandy a penny a glass.

>'To travellers from England, Gibraltar is an Oriental bazaar, but coming from Spain I found it more like Torquay - the same helmeted police, tall angular women and a cosy smell of provincial groceries. I'd forgotten how much the atmosphere at home depended on white bread, soap and soup-squares. Even in the conclave of Maltese-Genoese-Indians, one sensed the pressure of cooking steam.

>'My welcome at the colony was not what I expected. The port officials looked me up and down with doubt. The rest of the travellers were passed briskly through the barrier while I was put on one side like an infected apple. Clipped phone calls were made to remoter authorities, warily seeking advice. 'Oh, his passport's all right. No, he's not broke, exactly. Well, you know.... Well, sort of...Yes...'

>'Finally I was taken in a truck to see the chief of police, a worried but kindly man. 'But who are you?' he kept saying. 'It's rather difficult here. You must try to realise our position. It doesn't do, you know - if you'll forgive my saying so.'

>'Anyway, it was agreed that I could stay for a day or two, if I slept in the police station, where they could keep an eye on me. So I was given a clean little cell, a cake of soap, and I played dominoes with the prisoners in the evenings. I wasn't under arrest, exactly; I was allowed out in the daytime so long as I reported back at night. But the restriction was tedious, and after a few days of bacon and eggs, a policeman conducted me back to the frontier.'

>


Message 4588233100A-9932-937-07.htm, number 127650, was posted on Sun Mar 12 at 15:37:29
Tsunami survival "pod"

Whoreson Beast


www.greatbigstory.com/stories/tsunami-ball-a-modern-day-ark?iid=ob_homepage_10-test_featured_pool

Message 6cadb110gpf-9932-1035+07.htm, number 127651, was posted on Sun Mar 12 at 17:15:33
in reply to 46d1c13f00A-9932-825+07.htm

Re^2: Laurie Lee

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Lee evokes the stark poverty of Spain of that period, although for the most part misses the revolutionary mood that must have been seething at the time, given what Spain lurched into a few months later.
Poverty.... on the other hand, nobody appears to be starving, exactly. Having just finished reading the memoir of an escapee from North Korea (In Order To Live, by Yeonmi Park), as lean and harsh as life was for the Spanish peasant of 1935, it was luxury by comparison. There were a lot of beggars, a lot of women forced into prostitution, a lot of unemployment and underemployment - but he didn't see anybody reduced to eating grass and grasshoppers to stay alive.
Lee earned his pennies by busking with his fiddle. Sometimes (in Cadiz, for example) it produced not a peseta, but people did give him food. And wine, of course, which was cheaper than water.





On Sun Mar 12, Max Trainer wrote
--------------------------------
>>Great quote. hard to see how, but I do think this is the first time Laurie Lee had been brought up on the forum.

>"As I walked out.." is part 2 of 3 books. The first is "Cider with Rosie" wherein the author was a bit too young for me. But then this might be a real find for the Brits among us. Childhood in Wales.
>"As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning" is fine as a stand alone. But the quote below takes on a different meaning (innocence about to be lost?) when you know that the next book "A Moment of War" is the authors memoir of life the following year when he enlists in the Spanish Civil War.
>
>
>
>On Sun Mar 12, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>'As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning' is a lovely travel story - a  young man's tramping adventure in England and then Spain in 1935/36. Young Laurie arrives at Algeciras, after walking across Spain from Vigo. He feels he must at least see Gibraltar, and takes the ferry across the bay.

>>'I thought I'd drop in for the afternoon, present my passport, and have some tea. The old paddle-wheel ferry carried me across the water, smooth as oil and leaping with dolphins, while I enjoyed the brief passage of tax-free drinking, with brandy a penny a glass.

>>'To travellers from England, Gibraltar is an Oriental bazaar, but coming from Spain I found it more like Torquay - the same helmeted police, tall angular women and a cosy smell of provincial groceries. I'd forgotten how much the atmosphere at home depended on white bread, soap and soup-squares. Even in the conclave of Maltese-Genoese-Indians, one sensed the pressure of cooking steam.

>>'My welcome at the colony was not what I expected. The port officials looked me up and down with doubt. The rest of the travellers were passed briskly through the barrier while I was put on one side like an infected apple. Clipped phone calls were made to remoter authorities, warily seeking advice. 'Oh, his passport's all right. No, he's not broke, exactly. Well, you know.... Well, sort of...Yes...'

>>'Finally I was taken in a truck to see the chief of police, a worried but kindly man. 'But who are you?' he kept saying. 'It's rather difficult here. You must try to realise our position. It doesn't do, you know - if you'll forgive my saying so.'

>>'Anyway, it was agreed that I could stay for a day or two, if I slept in the police station, where they could keep an eye on me. So I was given a clean little cell, a cake of soap, and I played dominoes with the prisoners in the evenings. I wasn't under arrest, exactly; I was allowed out in the daytime so long as I reported back at night. But the restriction was tedious, and after a few days of bacon and eggs, a policeman conducted me back to the frontier.'

>>


Message 50e5a913p13-9933-373-90.htm, number 127652, was posted on Mon Mar 13 at 06:13:08
Boaty McBoatface to go on its first Antarctic mission

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Robot submarine, named after competition, will collect data from depths of Southern Ocean

[www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/13/boaty-mcboatface-to-go-on-first-antarctic-mission]


Message 50e5a913p13-9933-809+06.htm, number 127653, was posted on Mon Mar 13 at 13:28:59
in reply to 6cadb110gpf-9932-709-07.htm

Laurie Lee reads from 'As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The authentic sound of pre-war rural Gloucestershire.


Message 4747f4808HW-9933-914+5a.htm, number 127654, was posted on Mon Mar 13 at 15:14:26
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9933-373-90.htm

Re: Boaty McBoatface to go on its first Antarctic mission

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"Artist's impression"?  Sure looks like a photograph to me.  That's some trompe-l'oeil artist.
An artist’s impression of Boaty McBoatface in the Antarctic.

On Mon Mar 13, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Robot submarine, named after competition, will collect data from depths of Southern Ocean

>[www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/13/boaty-mcboatface-to-go-on-first-antarctic-mission]


Message 4588233100A-9934-447+59.htm, number 127655, was posted on Tue Mar 14 at 07:27:21
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9933-914+5a.htm

I'm assuming NERC doesn't put in at Argentinian ports?

Whoreson Beast


Especially with a BBC film crew aboard!  "Top Gear" reprised.

Message 50e5a913p13-9934-484+59.htm, number 127656, was posted on Tue Mar 14 at 08:04:35
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9933-373-90.htm

A gift to cartoonists

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



Message ae109a2eUWK-9935-34-07.htm, number 127657, was posted on Wed Mar 15 at 00:34:22
Capaberre in Singapore

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Only more funding can fix this.

www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-leonard-indictment-20170314-story.html


Message 3250991cwd5-9935-1162-90.htm, number 127658, was posted on Wed Mar 15 at 19:22:10
Fleecing the USN

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


It still goes on

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/15/fat-leonard-us-admiral-arrested-in-sex-for-secrets-scandal


Message 46d1cbb200A-9935-1215+5a.htm, number 127659, was posted on Wed Mar 15 at 20:14:40
in reply to 3250991cwd5-9935-1162-90.htm

Re: Fleecing the USN

Max



Admiral Loveless...choke..sputter.

You can't make this up.


On Wed Mar 15, Scourge's Housemate wrote
----------------------------------------
>It still goes on

>www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/15/fat-leonard-us-admiral-arrested-in-sex-for-secrets-scandal


Message 6b4d5362wd5-9936-609+59.htm, number 127660, was posted on Thu Mar 16 at 10:09:28
in reply to 3250991cwd5-9935-1162-90.htm

Re: Fleecing the USN

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Jack had his problems from the corruption in the dockyards. I hope
The supplies that were given were of good quality at least

Message 4747f4808HW-9936-1013-30.htm, number 127661, was posted on Thu Mar 16 at 16:54:08
Max, you got out too soon; there's money to be made out there, son!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Just found this revelation on Facebook (with photos):

"Hugh Jackman's claws might have forever doomed him to more and more Wolverine sequels, but Hollywood took a chance that paid off big in Les Miserables. You never see Jackman's hands in Les Mis, unless he's wearing specially constructed gloves to hide his Wolverineness. Rumor has it that he attempted to go gloveless in one intimate scene with Anne Hathaway, resulting in 3 stitches behind her left ear and a stern letter from her lawyers to the film's producers."


Message 46d1c05c00A-9936-1406+1e.htm, number 127662, was posted on Thu Mar 16 at 23:26:00
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9936-1013-30.htm

Sadly

Max


Sadly, I'm back in it. Maybe. I'll know in about 4 weeks.


n Thu Mar 16, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Just found this revelation on Facebook (with photos):

>"Hugh Jackman's claws might have forever doomed him to more and more Wolverine sequels, but Hollywood took a chance that paid off big in Les Miserables. You never see Jackman's hands in Les Mis, unless he's wearing specially constructed gloves to hide his Wolverineness. Rumor has it that he attempted to go gloveless in one intimate scene with Anne Hathaway, resulting in 3 stitches behind her left ear and a stern letter from her lawyers to the film's producers."


Message 46d1c05c00A-9936-1408+06.htm, number 127663, was posted on Thu Mar 16 at 23:27:44
in reply to ae109a2eUWK-9935-34-07.htm

Re: Capaberre in Singapore

Max


This is what comes from following your little admiral...


n Wed Mar 15, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>Only more funding can fix this.

>www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-leonard-indictment-20170314-story.html


Message 4747f4808HW-9937-665-30.htm, number 127664, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 11:04:51
Question about changing my Ceilidh settings

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I got to thinking I should change the presentation of my email address on this forum.  I still want y'all to know how to email me, but in order to make it harder for the bots to harvest my address, I figured I'd change it to "robhbridges -at- Gmail", or some such.

So I went to the Settings page ("registration options", it's called), made that change, and pushed the only button in sight, labeled "Submit".  But it replied "Please choose a username at least 4 characters long".

"Username"?  There's a field labeled "Your name (appears on the messages)"; it already contains "Bob Bridges" and I didn't change it.  Anyone have any ideas?


Message 46d1c05c00A-9937-964+1e.htm, number 127665, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 16:04:29
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9937-665-30.htm

Re: Question about changing my Ceilidh settings

Max


 Anyone have any ideas?

- Don't invade Russia in the winter.


Message 4abe5ca200A-9937-1066+58.htm, number 127666, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 17:48:23
in reply to 46d1cbb200A-9935-1215+5a.htm

Re^2: Fleecing the USN

YA


Looks like his retirement fund augmentation came up a bit short.

RIP Michael Dunn
On Wed Mar 15, Max wrote
------------------------
>>Admiral Loveless...choke..sputter.

>You can't make this up.
>
>
>On Wed Mar 15, Scourge's Housemate wrote
>----------------------------------------
>>It still goes on

>>www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/15/fat-leonard-us-admiral-arrested-in-sex-for-secrets-scandal


Message 4747f4808HW-9937-1070+1e.htm, number 127667, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 17:50:03
in reply to 46d1c05c00A-9937-964+1e.htm

Re^2: Question about changing my Ceilidh settings

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Lily Tomlin is supposed to have said: "I always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific."  Now I sympathize.

On Fri Mar 17, Max wrote
------------------------
- Don't invade Russia in the winter.


> Anyone have any ideas?


Message 50e5a913p13-9937-1257+1e.htm, number 127668, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 20:56:49
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9937-665-30.htm

Re: Question . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Mar 17, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I got to thinking I should change the presentation of my email address on this forum.  I still want y'all to know how to email me, but in order to make it harder for the bots to harvest my address, I figured I'd change it to "robhbridges -at- Gmail", or some such.

I have displayed my actual email address here for many years and I do not find myself flooded by bot messages.  My service provider, Plusnet (a BT subsidiary) has an efficient spam detector service and I use my email client to sort and manage my emails so that I am not overwhelmed by what does turn up. I have created hundreds of filters over the years which are applied to everything that comes in.

My advice is to set an email box just for Ceilidh and set up your client to add its inbox to your main inbox so that you don't need t0 look at it separately. Then if you do find yourself flooded with junk you can disable the link or close the box altogether.


Message 56003e26cb5-9937-1301+58.htm, number 127669, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 21:40:54
in reply to 3250991cwd5-9935-1162-90.htm

Re: Fleecing the USN

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



The only part of this that DOESN'T disgust me is the using of memorabilia of Douglas MacArthur as sex toys. There's a very odd sort of karma at work there.

Message 56003e26cb5-9937-1312-90.htm, number 127670, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 21:53:20
Wish me joy!

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


In conjunction with the 350th anniversary of De Ruyter's raid on the Medway, the Friends of the British Library are offering a special tour of the Historic Dockyard at Chatham on June 2nd. It's out of our era, but we will be seeing artifacts from the battle that are not normally on display. (I got to see Chesapeake's signal book, seized by Shannon, at the National Maritime Museum's library a few years ago.)

Price is only £10, a steal for these days.

If wars were won by feasting,
Or victory by song,
Or safety found in sleeping sound,
How England would be strong!
But honour and dominion
Are not maintainéd so.
They're only got by sword and shot,
And this the Dutchmen know!

The moneys that should feed us
You spend on your delight,
How can you then have sailor-men
To aid you in your fight?
Our fish and cheese are rotten,
Which makes the scurvy grow -
We cannot serve you if we starve,
And this the Dutchmen know!

Our ships in every harbour
Be neither whole nor sound,
And, when we seek to mend a leak,
No oakum can be found;
Or, if it is, the caulkers,
And carpenters also,
For lack of pay have gone away,
And this the Dutchmen know!

Mere powder, guns, and bullets,
We scarce can get at all;
Their price was spent in merriment
And revel at Whitehall,
While we in tattered doublets
From ship to ship must row,
Beseeching friends for odds and ends -
And this the Dutchmen know!

No King will heed our warnings,
No Court will pay our claims -
Our King and Court for their disport
Do sell the very Thames!
For, now De Ruyter's topsails
Off naked Chatham show,
We dare not meet him with our fleet -
And this the Dutchmen know!


Message 56003e26cb5-9937-1380-30.htm, number 127671, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 23:00:07
Funny thing about George Washington...

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



His house, Mount Vernon, is named after the inventor of grog. Admiral Vernon, AKA "Old Grogram" because of his grogram coats, was the first captain to order that the neat rum be diluted before being served out -- possibly under the mistaken impression that it would make the men less drunk.

Washington's elder brother served under Vernon and named the house after him.


Message 50e5a913p13-9938-470+59.htm, number 127672, was posted on Sat Mar 18 at 07:49:53
in reply to 56003e26cb5-9937-1312-90.htm

Re: Wish me joy!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Mar 17, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>In conjunction with the 350th anniversary of De Ruyter's raid on the Medway, the Friends of the British Library are offering a special tour of the Historic Dockyard at Chatham on June 2nd .  .

Membership 'from £40' support.bl.uk/Page/Become-a-friend

This summer's events:

¨ Wilton’s Music Hall Monday 03 April, 6pm £12 Maximum 10 people
¨ Theatre Royal Drury Lane Thursday 27 April, 2.15pm £14 Maximum 10 people
¨ Museum of London – Roman Gallery Tour Thursday 04 May, 2pm £16 Maximum 15 people
¨ Kensal Green Cemetery Wednesday 10 May, 2pm £15 Maximum 20 people
¨ Spencer House Monday 22 May, 12pm £17 Maximum 15 people
¨ Royal College of Nursing Tuesday 30 May, 2pm £10 Maximum 25 people
¨ The Institution of Engineering and Technology Archives Thursday 08 June, 2pm £10 Maximum 10 people
¨ Stephens House and Gardens Wednesday 14 June, 2pm £13 Maximum 20 people
¨ The Historic Dockyard Chatham Tuesday 20 June, 2pm £10 Maximum 15 people
¨ Royal College of Physicians Garden Tour Tuesday 27 June, 2pm £10 Maximum 20 people


Message 4588233100A-9938-616-07.htm, number 127673, was posted on Sat Mar 18 at 10:15:47
"What Happens When Queen Elizabeth Dies"

Whoreson Beast


www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge

Message 50e5a913p13-9938-718+07.htm, number 127674, was posted on Sat Mar 18 at 11:58:15
in reply to 4588233100A-9938-616-07.htm

Guardian letters

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Mar 18, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/17/how-britain-will-cope-with-the-death-of-the-queen


Message 46d1c05c00A-9938-768+57.htm, number 127675, was posted on Sat Mar 18 at 12:47:36
in reply to 4abe5ca200A-9937-1066+58.htm

Re^3: Fleecing the USN

Max


f too often I come across, and prosecute, embezzlement from casinos and I am frequently surprised by how small and simplistic the schemes are.

I wish to ask them "wasn't there some point, sometime, at least once..where the idea crossed your mind, ever so briefly, that taking whores and money from some pimp named Fat Leonard might not be the best idea you ever had?"


Message 18f7024d00A-9938-938+57.htm, number 127676, was posted on Sat Mar 18 at 15:38:19
in reply to 46d1c05c00A-9938-768+57.htm

Re^4: Fleecing the USN

Beached


Am always amazed at the number of people who do not seem to consider the consequences of their actions.  




On Sat Mar 18, Max wrote
------------------------
>f too often I come across, and prosecute, embezzlement from casinos and I am frequently surprised by how small and simplistic the schemes are.

>I wish to ask them "wasn't there some point, sometime, at least once..where the idea crossed your mind, ever so briefly, that taking whores and money from some pimp named Fat Leonard might not be the best idea you ever had?"


Message 4747f4808HW-9938-1267+57.htm, number 127677, was posted on Sat Mar 18 at 21:07:12
in reply to 18f7024d00A-9938-938+57.htm

Re^5: Fleecing the USN

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Louis L'Amour used to comment that crooks are generally optimists; they think they're smarter than everyone else, and don't believe they'll ever get caught.  So they risk a 20-year jail term for a sum of money they could have earned in six months.  Maybe even two months, for those who are almost as smart as they think they are.

On Sat Mar 18, Beached wrote
----------------------------
>Am always amazed at the number of people who do not seem to consider the consequences of their actions.  

>On Sat Mar 18, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>f too often I come across, and prosecute, embezzlement from casinos and I am frequently surprised by how small and simplistic the schemes are.

>>I wish to ask them "wasn't there some point, sometime, at least once..where the idea crossed your mind, ever so briefly, that taking whores and money from some pimp named Fat Leonard might not be the best idea you ever had?"


Message 50e5a913p13-9939-420-07.htm, number 127678, was posted on Sun Mar 19 at 06:59:55
‘In which 18th-century prose satire would you find the Blefuscudian navy?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . Find the answer to today's question from Oxford Reference at: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199567454%2E013%2E0258

Message 31bb0bc900A-9939-451+07.htm, number 127679, was posted on Sun Mar 19 at 07:31:31
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9939-420-07.htm

Re: ‘In which 18th-century prose satire would you find the Blefuscudian navy?’ . .

wombat


On Sun Mar 19, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . Find the answer to today's question from Oxford Reference at: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199567454%2E013%2E0258

Jonathan Swift seems a reasonable guess. But less obvious than Gulliver's Travels? The/A Tale of a Tub?


Message 46d1c63700A-9939-771+56.htm, number 127680, was posted on Sun Mar 19 at 12:51:17
in reply to 56003e26cb5-9937-1301+58.htm

How is this for an apropos quote

Max


You are remembered for the rules you break.


On Fri Mar 17, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>The only part of this that DOESN'T disgust me is the using of memorabilia of Douglas MacArthur as sex toys. There's a very odd sort of karma at work there.

Message 46d1c63700A-9939-774+07.htm, number 127681, was posted on Sun Mar 19 at 12:54:21
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9939-451+07.htm

Nope, Wombat has it

Max


I think that might be the country at war with Lillipute.



n Sun Mar 19, wombat wrote

>Jonathan Swift seems a reasonable guess. But less obvious than Gulliver's Travels? The/A Tale of a Tub?


Message 46d1c63700A-9939-1111-30.htm, number 127682, was posted on Sun Mar 19 at 18:31:21
Move over Ludwig - RIP Chuck Berry

Max


“I caught the rollin’ arth-a-ritis sittin’ down at a rhythm revue,”

Message 591e316400A-9940-291+57.htm, number 127683, was posted on Mon Mar 20 at 04:51:00
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9938-470+59.htm

Re^2: Wish me joy!

NiceRedTrousers


I'm a regular at Chatham Dockyards, usually twice a year with the kids.

In fact my son had a "kip on a ship" sleepover on HMS Cavalier (destroyer, 1944-1972) with his cub scout pack on Saturday night.  He made some rope in the 1,135ft-long ropery too.

Even though most of the land has since been sold off, the scale of the place is enormous - must have been like a small city in its heyday.

NRT


On Sat Mar 18, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Fri Mar 17, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>>In conjunction with the 350th anniversary of De Ruyter's raid on the Medway, the Friends of the British Library are offering a special tour of the Historic Dockyard at Chatham on June 2nd .  .

>Membership 'from £40' support.bl.uk/Page/Become-a-friend

>This summer's events:

>¨ Wilton’s Music Hall Monday 03 April, 6pm £12 Maximum 10 people
>¨ Theatre Royal Drury Lane Thursday 27 April, 2.15pm £14 Maximum 10 people
>¨ Museum of London – Roman Gallery Tour Thursday 04 May, 2pm £16 Maximum 15 people
>¨ Kensal Green Cemetery Wednesday 10 May, 2pm £15 Maximum 20 people
>¨ Spencer House Monday 22 May, 12pm £17 Maximum 15 people
>¨ Royal College of Nursing Tuesday 30 May, 2pm £10 Maximum 25 people
>¨ The Institution of Engineering and Technology Archives Thursday 08 June, 2pm £10 Maximum 10 people
>¨ Stephens House and Gardens Wednesday 14 June, 2pm £13 Maximum 20 people
>¨ The Historic Dockyard Chatham Tuesday 20 June, 2pm £10 Maximum 15 people
>¨ Royal College of Physicians Garden Tour Tuesday 27 June, 2pm £10 Maximum 20 people


Message 50e5a913p13-9940-402+06.htm, number 127684, was posted on Mon Mar 20 at 06:42:55
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9939-451+07.htm

Re^2: ‘In which 18th-century prose . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Mar 19, wombat wrote
---------------------------
Jonathan Swift seems a reasonable guess. But less obvious than Gulliver's Travels? The/A Tale of a Tub?

‘ . . I then took my tackling, and, fastening a hook to the hole at the prow of each, I tied all the cords together at the end . . then I took up the knotted end of the cables, to which my hooks were tied, and with great ease drew fifty of the enemy’s largest men of war after me.

The Blefuscudians, who had not the least imagination of what I intended, were at first confounded with astonishmen . . when they perceived the whole fleet moving in order, and saw me pulling at the end, they set up such a scream of grief and despair . . waiting about an hour, till the tide was a little fallen, I waded through the middle with my cargo, and arrived safe at the royal port of Lilliput.

The emperor and his whole court stood on the shore, expecting the issue of this great adventure. They saw the ships move forward in a large half-moon, but could not discern me, who was up to my breast in water . . the channel growing shallower every step I made, I came in a short time within hearing, and holding up the end of the cable, by which the fleet was fastened, I cried in a loud voice, “Long live the most puissant king of Lilliput!” . . ‘

[www.shmoop.com/gullivers-travels/part-1-chapter-5-full-text-2.html]


Message 31bb0bc900A-9942-325-30.htm, number 127685, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 05:26:12
You say BALcony and I say balCONy

wombat


Jack is saying that Tom Pullings "could not find a ship for a great while: and of course no ship, no promotion...I took him to dine at Slaughter's with Rowlands of the Hebe, who had lost a lieutenant overboard. They got along well enough, but afterwards Rowlands told me he did not choose to have anyone on his quarterdeck who did not say balcony, and unfortunately poor Tom had said balcony. It is the old story of the gentleman captains and the tarpaulins all over again."

Now, from the table talk of a literary man (Samuel Rogers) 1763 – 1855


"It is curious how fashion changes pronunciation.
....The now fashionable pronunciation
of several words is to me at least very offensive :
" CONtemplate " is bad enough but " balCONy "
makes me sick."

I've suspected Rogers of being one of PO'B's sources. In this case, I'm fairly confident that he is.

Rogers also makes Stephen's youthful career as a frequent duellist when at Trinity College, Dublin more convincing to me by writing about an actual Irish duellist "who had killed at least half-a-dozen antagonists". In fact, the fashionable classes were calling each other out even more regularly than PO'B had led me to expect. One, "a surgeon, ... made his appearance in the field stark naked, to the astonishment of the challenger who asked him what he meant. ' I know,' said H. ' that if any part of the clothing is carried into the body
by a gunshot wound, festering ensues ; and therefore I have met you thus." Doesn't Stephen present himself at an encounter semi-stripped, giving the same reason ?


Message 50e5a913p13-9942-409+1e.htm, number 127686, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 06:48:47
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9942-325-30.htm

Re: You say BALcony and I say balCONy

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 22, wombat wrote
---------------------------
I've suspected Rogers of being one of PO'B's sources. In this case, I'm fairly confident that he is.

via the OED it seems:

'balcony, n. Pron:  Brit. /ˈbalkəni/, /ˈbalkn̩i/, U.S. /ˈbælkəni/

Forms:  16 balcone, balcona, balconia, balconie, balconee, belcony, belconey, bellcony,  bellconey, 16– balcony.

< Italian balcōne (= French balcon, Provençal balcon, Spanish balcon, Portuguese balcão), formed with augmentative suffix -one from Italian balco, palco, scaffold, < Old High German balcho, palcho (= modern German balken, English balk) a beam.

Till c1825 the pronunciation was regularly bælˈkəʊnɪ; but ˈbælkənɪ (once in Swift), ‘which,’ said Samuel Rogers, ‘makes me sick,’ is now established.

‘1735   Swift Clever Tom Clinch in Wks. II. 298   The Maids to the Doors and the Balconies ran, And said, lack-a-day! he's a proper young Man.’
'


Message 4747f4808HW-9942-538-07.htm, number 127687, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 08:58:02
Happy birthday to Peter Goodman! (nt)

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Ok, just enough t to satisfy Ceilidh.

Message 4747f4808HW-9942-545+1e.htm, number 127688, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 09:04:53
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9942-325-30.htm

Re: You say BALcony and I say balCONy

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I vaguely remember Stephen saying that cotton and silk were different, that one was safer than the other...but I don't remember which, nor whether it's safer because less likely to bring infection, or because less likely to be carried into the wound, or perhaps easier to remove afterward.  I'm currently reading the series to one of my sons; maybe I'll run into it soon.

On Wed Mar 22, wombat wrote
---------------------------
One, "a surgeon, ... made his appearance in the field stark naked, to the astonishment of the challenger who asked him what he meant. ' I know,' said H. ' that if any part of the clothing is carried into the body by a gunshot wound, festering ensues ; and therefore I have met you thus." Doesn't Stephen present himself at an encounter semi-stripped, giving the same reason?


Message 50e5a913p13-9942-540-90.htm, number 127689, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 10:04:26
The Struggle for Sea Power: A Naval History of the American War of Independence (review)

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Highly recommended to Forumites as a good blend of the popular and the scholarly approaches to history:

Sam Willis; Atlantic, pp.608, £30 and Nortons: books.wwnorton.com/books/The-Struggle-for-Sea-Power/

Spectator review: Military history is more popular than respected. It is not hard to see why. It is masculine history, a trifecta of logistical planning, technical detail and violent death. It shows the value of hierarchy and duty, sacrifice and patriotism — disgraceful notions which the young and impressionable might be inspired to emulate. And,with its sudden twists from tedium to danger and its tidily destructive conclusions, it has tight plots.

One way to make civilian history as exciting is, as Eric Hobsbawm showed, to turn it into a false kind of fiction, true neither to the facts nor the life. Another, as N.A.M. Rodger did in The Wooden World, his ‘anatomy’ of the Georgian navy, is to integrate military history with political and social history. Sam Willis’s The Struggle for Sea Power has something of the Rodger touch: a ‘liquid history’ that integrates water and land, war and politics, global strategies and provincial societies. It is highly entertaining and readable, too.

In the liquid perspective, the colonies were not so much lost to the zeal of the rebels as mislaid by the incompetence of the imperial administration. The London government imposed taxes, and then a blockade against tax evasion, but there were too many creeks and bays on the American coast, and too many collaborators looking to profit along with the tax-evaders. Before the first shots were fired on land at Lexington in April 1775, the Americans had already bested the world’s most powerful navy — and without launching a fleet of their own. More than 90 per cent of the powder used by the Americans in the first two and a half years of their revolt had been smuggled in, mostly from the Caribbean, and often from unscrupulous British merchants.

As a regular visitor to Boston’s Museum of Fine Arts, I knew that Paul Revere was not a jockey by profession, but a silversmith. I did not know that Revere’s night ride to Concord began with him sneaking across the Charles River in a little boat. With Boston under military rule, water traffic was banned; before Revere mounted his horse at Charlestown, he had drifted silently under the guns of the 64-gun Somerset. Nor did I know that the British troops who were harried from Lexington to Charlestown had begun their miserable journey with a similar crossing, which left them ‘shivering in the Cambridge marshes, wet to their waistbands’ as they waited for the Navy to row across their supplies.

The Americans’ first liquid campaign predated the founding of their navy. In late 1775, Benedict Arnold, usually remembered as a traitor to the revolution, led an amphibious invasion of Canada. More than 1,000 men sailed ‘dirty coasters and fish boats’ up the lakes and rivers to Quebec. After losing most of his ammunition and half of his men on the way, Arnold was repulsed from Quebec by a garrison of sailors from HMS Isis. The colonists gave up on attacking northwards; Canada remained in the British empire.

The entry of France in 1778 turned a colonial civil war into an imperial, Atlantic war. The Royal Navy was split between blockading the Americans, defending the English Channel, and fighting for the Caribbean. If Britain could no longer win the war on land, would the rebels have won their decisive land victory at Yorktown in 1781 without liquid assistance from France?

French ships had already buttressed Washington’s Continental Army, by landing the Comte de Rochambeau’s troops in 1780. Now, the French West Indies’ fleet under the Comte de Grasse cut off Cornwallis’s maritime escape route from Yorktown, by defeating the Royal Navy at the Battle of the Chesapeake. The French then landed more soldiers, as well as 500,000 pesos, raised in Cuba by France’s Spanish ally, to pay for the siege and the Continental Army’s payroll.

Rodney’s revenge, defeating de Grasse at the Battle of the Saintes (1782), secured the West Indies but could not alter the outcome on the continental mainland. The Royal Navy could win battles, but not the war; the French navy lost battles, but won the war for the Americans. As everyone knows, the last shot of the American War of Independence was fired between British and French ships in the Bay of Bengal, at the Battle of Cuddalore on 20 June 1783.

Sam Willis is an enthusiastic sailor, an expert researcher, and a television presenter. Metaphors are spliced like mainbraces, the language of the lower deck gives a salty tang to the narrative, and the English language is brutally keelhauled — the Battle of the Chesapeake is a ‘heavyweight slugfest’. Still, The Struggle for Sea Power is careful in research and analysis, and a strong example of military history at its most ambitious: a ‘liquid history’ that, diluting the familiar, landlubbing account, globalises the politics of the American Revolution.

Dominic Green


Message 50e5a913p13-9942-828+5a.htm, number 127690, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 13:48:33
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9942-540-90.htm

The Battle of Cuddalore

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 22, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
. . As everyone knows, the last shot of the American War of Independence was fired between British and French ships in the Bay of Bengal, at the Battle of Cuddalore on 20 June 1783.


' . . battle was engaged shortly after four in the afternoon. The action lasted about three hours resulting in no major damage to ships in either fleet, despite all ships being engaged . . c. 100 dead and 400 wounded on each side . . word of peace officially arrived at Cuddalore on 29 June.'

To the dismay, no doubt,of all young officers and middies whose prospects of a career vanished in an instant. Even Horatio Nelson was on the beach for six years until war started again in 1793.

(wikipedia)


Message 47b879ac00A-9942-1169+1e.htm, number 127691, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 19:29:21
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9942-325-30.htm

Here is how POB said Balcony

Don Seltzer


I have a short YouTube clip in which POB says, 'that odious balcony'.

https://youtu.be/JU5HzI58YCg


Message 50e5a913p13-9942-1227+1e.htm, number 127692, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 20:28:10
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9942-1169+1e.htm

To make a working link . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . turn 'https' into 'http':

On Wed Mar 22, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>I have a short YouTube clip in which POB says, 'that odious balcony'.
>youtu.be/JU5HzI58YCg


Message 31bb0bc900A-9942-1248+1e.htm, number 127693, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 20:47:40
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9942-1169+1e.htm

Re: Here is how POB said Balcony

wombat


On Wed Mar 22, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>I have a short YouTube clip in which POB says, 'that odious balcony'.

>https://youtu.be/JU5HzI58YCg


And POB is in the right of it!


Message 4588233100A-9944-959-07.htm, number 127694, was posted on Fri Mar 24 at 15:59:34
Roof Canal?

Whoreson Beast


foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/norway-wants-to-build-the-worlds-first-ship-tunnel-1793606315

Message 50e5a913p13-9945-815-90.htm, number 127695, was posted on Sat Mar 25 at 13:35:17
Decapitating Rockall

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


How a 1970s Navy expedition blasted the top off the Atlantic islet - Operation Top Hat report surfaces from the archives

[www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/22/rockall_peak_blasted_off_navy_expedition/]

Message 47b879ac00A-9945-1320+06.htm, number 127696, was posted on Sat Mar 25 at 22:00:06
in reply to 4588233100A-9944-959-07.htm

Re: Roof Canal?

Don Seltzer


On Fri Mar 24, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/norway-wants-to-build-the-worlds-first-ship-tunnel-1793606315

See the semi-autobiographical first chapter of Hornblower and the Atropos.


Message 4588233100A-9947-451-07.htm, number 127697, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 07:30:59
Happy Intl. Whisk(e)y Day, 3/27

Whoreson Beast


www.internationalwhiskyday.org

Message 6b4d554cwd5-9947-534-90.htm, number 127698, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 08:53:42
Stephen's Bell

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/03/diving-bell/520536/

Message 46d1ca2600A-9947-597+07.htm, number 127699, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 09:57:31
in reply to 4588233100A-9947-451-07.htm

Re:Shagere

Max



I have a bottle of Pappy Van waiting my son's retirement from the Corps. Guess I'll have to make do with the 18 year old Glenlivet.
Shangere! (Mohawk toast. Rough translation: don't step off)


n Mon Mar 27, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>www.internationalwhiskyday.org

Message 18751d4awlj-9947-782-90.htm, number 127700, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 13:02:11
O'Brian on the power of novels

Brian O'Patrick
pobforum@acornns.com


I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian, through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can.  My fervent hope is that someone here will say, "Oh, sure, that's right here."  I need it for a literacy narrative in school.  It isn't the end of the world (nor even The Far Side of the World lol) if I can't find the passage, but it would certainly be nice to have since it perfectly supports a point I'm making.

Thank you in advance,

-Brian


Message 50e5a913p13-9947-812+5a.htm, number 127701, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 13:32:21
in reply to 18751d4awlj-9947-782-90.htm

Re: O'Brian on the power of novels

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
------------------------------------
>I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian, through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of novels .  .

If it has been digitised, google will have indexed it. So if  you can recall a phrase (or even better, several) from it, a search on those phrases plus "patrick o'brian" may bring it up.


Message d43867a100A-9947-826+5a.htm, number 127702, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 13:46:31
in reply to 18751d4awlj-9947-782-90.htm

Re: O'Brian on the power of novels

Guest


On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
------------------------------------
> I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian,
> through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of
> novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much
> more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can. My
> fervent hope is that someone here will say, "Oh, sure, that's
> right here." I need it for a literacy narrative in school. It
> isn't the end of the world (nor even The Far Side of the World
> lol) if I can't find the passage, but it would certainly be nice
> to have since it perfectly supports a point I'm making.
> Thank you in advance,

From "The Nutmeg of Consolation":
  ‘Sir,’ said Stephen, ‘I read novels with the utmost pertinacity.
  I look upon them – I look upon good novels – as a very valuable
  part of literature, conveying more exact and finely-
  distinguished knowledge of the human heart and mind than almost
  any other, with greater breadth and depth and fewer constraints.
  Had I not read Madame de La Fayette, the Abbé Prévost, and the
  man who wrote Clarissa, that extraordinary feat, I should be
  very much poorer than I am; and a moment’s reflection would add
  many more.’

Via www.singularityfps.com/pob/


Message 48bd7b1fttz-9947-871-07.htm, number 127703, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 14:31:13
"Six Frigates" by Ian W. Toll

CPMariner
fbcroson@hotmail.com


Hi folks :-) It's been for...ever since I was last here, so I s'pose it's likely that Ian Toll's narrative history "Six Frigates" has already come up for discussion.

But if not, my recommendation is Three Thumbs Up! (I'm an amateur economist, so I have three hands derived from endless iterations of "On the other hand..." :-) It's a wonderful book, written in a guileless, engaging narrative style, with loads of detail about the American post-Revolutionary period to flesh out its basic subject matter: the birth of the U.S. Navy.

If you're inclined to think that American politics has gone 'round the bend these days, Toll's treatment of the politics surrounding the creation of the Navy might reassure you. Those were ham-fisted, hard-drinkin' rough 'n' tumble days from the ship builders right on up to the president(s), making today's politics look like a tea party... (oops, sorry).

The tug o' wars (or should that be tugs o' war?) over the need for a Navy, its ship designs, its best uses, participation in such as the "Quasi-War" and the 1812 fiasco, the ongoing fracas between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists... it "covers the waterfront".

Enthusiastically recommended!

CPMariner (On the books as "Run", but there'll be no grog stoppage! ;-)



 


Message 18751d4awlj-9947-872+5a.htm, number 127704, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 14:32:19
in reply to d43867a100A-9947-826+5a.htm

Re^2: O'Brian on the power of novels

Brian O'Patrick
pobforum@acornns.com


That's it!  You hit a hole in one!  Thank you very much!

-Brian


On Mon Mar 27, Guest wrote
--------------------------
>On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
>------------------------------------
>> I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian,
>> through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of
>> novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much
>> more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can. My
>> fervent hope is that someone here will say, "Oh, sure, that's
>> right here." I need it for a literacy narrative in school. It
>> isn't the end of the world (nor even The Far Side of the World
>> lol) if I can't find the passage, but it would certainly be nice
>> to have since it perfectly supports a point I'm making.
>> Thank you in advance,

>From "The Nutmeg of Consolation":
>   ‘Sir,’ said Stephen, ‘I read novels with the utmost pertinacity.
>   I look upon them – I look upon good novels – as a very valuable
>   part of literature, conveying more exact and finely-
>   distinguished knowledge of the human heart and mind than almost
>   any other, with greater breadth and depth and fewer constraints.
>   Had I not read Madame de La Fayette, the Abbé Prévost, and the
>   man who wrote Clarissa, that extraordinary feat, I should be
>   very much poorer than I am; and a moment’s reflection would add
>   many more.’


Message adff84708YV-9947-900+07.htm, number 127705, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 15:00:18
in reply to 48bd7b1fttz-9947-871-07.htm

Re:LOL (NT)

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Mon Mar 27, CPMariner wrote
------------------------------
>Hi folks :-) It's been for...ever since I was last here, so I s'pose it's likely that Ian Toll's narrative history "Six Frigates" has already come up for discussion.

>But if not, my recommendation is Three Thumbs Up! (I'm an amateur economist, so I have three hands derived from endless iterations of "On the other hand..." :-) It's a wonderful book, written in a guileless, engaging narrative style, with loads of detail about the American post-Revolutionary period to flesh out its basic subject matter: the birth of the U.S. Navy.

>If you're inclined to think that American politics has gone 'round the bend these days, Toll's treatment of the politics surrounding the creation of the Navy might reassure you. Those were ham-fisted, hard-drinkin' rough 'n' tumble days from the ship builders right on up to the president(s), making today's politics look like a tea party... (oops, sorry).

>The tug o' wars (or should that be tugs o' war?) over the need for a Navy, its ship designs, its best uses, participation in such as the "Quasi-War" and the 1812 fiasco, the ongoing fracas between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists... it "covers the waterfront".

>Enthusiastically recommended!

>CPMariner (On the books as "Run", but there'll be no grog stoppage! ;-)
>
>
>
>  


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9948-721+59.htm, number 127706, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 12:00:40
in reply to 18751d4awlj-9947-872+5a.htm

Re^3: O'Brian on the power of novels

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I almost - but not quite - ordered a book by Prevost, La Fayette or Richardson from the library. They're all there. One feels one should. Has anyone here read anything by any of them?


On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
------------------------------------
>That's it!  You hit a hole in one!  Thank you very much!

>-Brian
>
>
>On Mon Mar 27, Guest wrote
>--------------------------
>>On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
>>------------------------------------
>>> I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian,
>>> through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of
>>> novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much
>>> more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can. My
>>> fervent hope is that someone here will say, "Oh, sure, that's
>>> right here." I need it for a literacy narrative in school. It
>>> isn't the end of the world (nor even The Far Side of the World
>>> lol) if I can't find the passage, but it would certainly be nice
>>> to have since it perfectly supports a point I'm making.
>>> Thank you in advance,

>>From "The Nutmeg of Consolation":
>>   ‘Sir,’ said Stephen, ‘I read novels with the utmost pertinacity.
>>   I look upon them – I look upon good novels – as a very valuable
>>   part of literature, conveying more exact and finely-
>>   distinguished knowledge of the human heart and mind than almost
>>   any other, with greater breadth and depth and fewer constraints.
>>   Had I not read Madame de La Fayette, the Abbé Prévost, and the
>>   man who wrote Clarissa, that extraordinary feat, I should be
>>   very much poorer than I am; and a moment’s reflection would add
>>   many more.’
>


Message 43068923UWK-9948-791+06.htm, number 127707, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 13:11:15
in reply to 48bd7b1fttz-9947-871-07.htm

Chronicles of the Frigate Macedonian

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


When I finished Six Frigates I read Chronicles of the Frigate Macedonian by De Key, published by some people called W.W. Norton. I enjoyed both books and the seditious times described therein.


On Mon Mar 27, CPMariner wrote
------------------------------
>Hi folks :-) It's been for...ever since I was last here, so I s'pose it's likely that Ian Toll's narrative history "Six Frigates" has already come up for discussion.

>But if not, my recommendation is Three Thumbs Up! (I'm an amateur economist, so I have three hands derived from endless iterations of "On the other hand..." :-) It's a wonderful book, written in a guileless, engaging narrative style, with loads of detail about the American post-Revolutionary period to flesh out its basic subject matter: the birth of the U.S. Navy.

>If you're inclined to think that American politics has gone 'round the bend these days, Toll's treatment of the politics surrounding the creation of the Navy might reassure you. Those were ham-fisted, hard-drinkin' rough 'n' tumble days from the ship builders right on up to the president(s), making today's politics look like a tea party... (oops, sorry).

>The tug o' wars (or should that be tugs o' war?) over the need for a Navy, its ship designs, its best uses, participation in such as the "Quasi-War" and the 1812 fiasco, the ongoing fracas between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists... it "covers the waterfront".

>Enthusiastically recommended!

>CPMariner (On the books as "Run", but there'll be no grog stoppage! ;-)
>
>
>
>  


Message 43068923UWK-9948-809-30.htm, number 127708, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 13:30:59
He that would make a pun would pick a pocket

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.


Message 50e5a913p13-9948-963+1e.htm, number 127709, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 16:02:39
in reply to 43068923UWK-9948-809-30.htm

Working link (sigh)

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.
>


Message 4c729d1400A-9948-1254+59.htm, number 127710, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 20:53:52
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-9948-721+59.htm

Re^4: O'Brian on the power of novels

Steve Sheridan


I read "Clarissa" years and years ago. It took ages to get through, which is probably why I enjoyed the BBC adaption featuring Sean Bean as Lovelace a whole lot more.

Steve


Message 47b879ac00A-9948-1282+59.htm, number 127711, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 21:22:39
in reply to 18751d4awlj-9947-782-90.htm

Re: O'Brian on the power of novels

Don Seltzer


On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
------------------------------------
>I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian, through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can.

I think that we should give equal time to Jack's view of the novel,

'I never was a great reader,' said Jack. His friends looked down at their wine and smiled. 'I mean I never could get along with your novels and tales. Admiral Burney - Captain Burney then - lent me one wrote by his sister* when we were coming back with a slow convoy from the West Indies; but I could not get through with it - sad stuff, I thought. Though I dare say the fault was in me, just as some people cannot relish music; for Burney thought the world of it, and he was as fine a seaman as any in the service. He sailed with Cook, and you cannot say fairer than that.'

'That is the best qualification for a literary critic I ever heard of,' said Yorke. 'What was the name of the book?'

'There you have me,' said Jack. 'But it was a small book, in three volumes, I think; and it was all about love. Every novel I have ever looked into is all about love; and I have looked into a good many, because Sophie loves them, and I read aloud to her while she knits, in the evening. All about love.'

'Of course they are,' said Yorke. 'What else raises your blood, your spirits, your whole being, to the highest pitch, so that life is triumphant, or tragic, as the case may be, and so that every day is worth a year of common life? When you sit trembling for a letter? When the whole of life is filled with meaning, double-shotted? To be sure, when you actually come to what some have called the right true end, you may find the position ridiculous, and the pleasure momentary; but novels, upon the whole, are concerned with getting there. And for that matter, what else makes the world go round?'

*Frances Burney


Message 47b879ac00A-9948-1296+06.htm, number 127712, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 21:35:56
in reply to 48bd7b1fttz-9947-871-07.htm

Re: "Six Frigates" by Ian W. Toll

Don Seltzer


Ian Toll was formerly a financial analyst. His interest in nautical history came about when he discovered POB in the early 1990's. Combined with his education in political science and American history, he decided to write of the beginnings of the USN within the context of the national politics and economic background of the time.



On Mon Mar 27, CPMariner wrote
------------------------------
>Hi folks :-) It's been for...ever since I was last here, so I s'pose it's likely that Ian Toll's narrative history "Six Frigates" has already come up for discussion.

>But if not, my recommendation is Three Thumbs Up! (I'm an amateur economist, so I have three hands derived from endless iterations of "On the other hand..." :-) It's a wonderful book, written in a guileless, engaging narrative style, with loads of detail about the American post-Revolutionary period to flesh out its basic subject matter: the birth of the U.S. Navy.

>If you're inclined to think that American politics has gone 'round the bend these days, Toll's treatment of the politics surrounding the creation of the Navy might reassure you. Those were ham-fisted, hard-drinkin' rough 'n' tumble days from the ship builders right on up to the president(s), making today's politics look like a tea party... (oops, sorry).

>The tug o' wars (or should that be tugs o' war?) over the need for a Navy, its ship designs, its best uses, participation in such as the "Quasi-War" and the 1812 fiasco, the ongoing fracas between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists... it "covers the waterfront".

>Enthusiastically recommended!

>CPMariner (On the books as "Run", but there'll be no grog stoppage! ;-)
>
>
>
>  


Message ae10819fUWK-9949-50+1d.htm, number 127713, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 00:50:15
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9948-963+1e.htm

Yes Killick, go to bed.

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


On Tue Mar 28, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
>------------------------------------
>>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>>cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.
>>


Message 419ec81b00A-9949-634+58.htm, number 127714, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 10:34:13
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9948-1282+59.htm

Re^2: O'Brian on the power of novels

Max


Apparently Jack was also  reader of Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield:>
Sex: the pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable.




On Tue Mar 28, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
>------------------------------------
>>I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian, through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can.

>I think that we should give equal time to Jack's view of the novel,

>'I never was a great reader,' said Jack. His friends looked down at their wine and smiled. 'I mean I never could get along with your novels and tales. Admiral Burney - Captain Burney then - lent me one wrote by his sister* when we were coming back with a slow convoy from the West Indies; but I could not get through with it - sad stuff, I thought. Though I dare say the fault was in me, just as some people cannot relish music; for Burney thought the world of it, and he was as fine a seaman as any in the service. He sailed with Cook, and you cannot say fairer than that.'

>'That is the best qualification for a literary critic I ever heard of,' said Yorke. 'What was the name of the book?'

>'There you have me,' said Jack. 'But it was a small book, in three volumes, I think; and it was all about love. Every novel I have ever looked into is all about love; and I have looked into a good many, because Sophie loves them, and I read aloud to her while she knits, in the evening. All about love.'

>'Of course they are,' said Yorke. 'What else raises your blood, your spirits, your whole being, to the highest pitch, so that life is triumphant, or tragic, as the case may be, and so that every day is worth a year of common life? When you sit trembling for a letter? When the whole of life is filled with meaning, double-shotted? To be sure, when you actually come to what some have called the right true end, you may find the position ridiculous, and the pleasure momentary; but novels, upon the whole, are concerned with getting there. And for that matter, what else makes the world go round?'

>*Frances Burney


Message 18f7024d00A-9949-715+58.htm, number 127715, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 11:55:30
in reply to 419ec81b00A-9949-634+58.htm

Re^3: O'Brian on the power of novels

Beached


I always thought that quote was from Boswell. Well, you can learn something new every day whether you want to or not.




On Wed Mar 29, Max wrote
------------------------
>Apparently Jack was also  reader of Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield:>>
>Sex: the pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable.
>
>
>
>
>On Tue Mar 28, Don Seltzer wrote
>--------------------------------
>>On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
>>------------------------------------
>>>I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian, through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can.

>>I think that we should give equal time to Jack's view of the novel,

>>'I never was a great reader,' said Jack. His friends looked down at their wine and smiled. 'I mean I never could get along with your novels and tales. Admiral Burney - Captain Burney then - lent me one wrote by his sister* when we were coming back with a slow convoy from the West Indies; but I could not get through with it - sad stuff, I thought. Though I dare say the fault was in me, just as some people cannot relish music; for Burney thought the world of it, and he was as fine a seaman as any in the service. He sailed with Cook, and you cannot say fairer than that.'

>>'That is the best qualification for a literary critic I ever heard of,' said Yorke. 'What was the name of the book?'

>>'There you have me,' said Jack. 'But it was a small book, in three volumes, I think; and it was all about love. Every novel I have ever looked into is all about love; and I have looked into a good many, because Sophie loves them, and I read aloud to her while she knits, in the evening. All about love.'

>>'Of course they are,' said Yorke. 'What else raises your blood, your spirits, your whole being, to the highest pitch, so that life is triumphant, or tragic, as the case may be, and so that every day is worth a year of common life? When you sit trembling for a letter? When the whole of life is filled with meaning, double-shotted? To be sure, when you actually come to what some have called the right true end, you may find the position ridiculous, and the pleasure momentary; but novels, upon the whole, are concerned with getting there. And for that matter, what else makes the world go round?'

>>*Frances Burney


Message cf6d647e00A-9949-777+58.htm, number 127716, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 12:57:15
in reply to 18f7024d00A-9949-715+58.htm

Re^4: O'Brian on the power of novels

Max


I make no claim as to the TRUE origin of the quote.
On a Forum with The OED being referred to daily I wouldn't dare.





Wed Mar 29, Beached wrote
----------------------------
>I always thought that quote was from Boswell. Well, you can learn something new every day whether you want to or not.
>
>
>
>
>On Wed Mar 29, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Apparently Jack was also  reader of Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield:>>>
>>Sex: the pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Tue Mar 28, Don Seltzer wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
>>>------------------------------------
>>>>I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian, through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can.

>>>I think that we should give equal time to Jack's view of the novel,

>>>'I never was a great reader,' said Jack. His friends looked down at their wine and smiled. 'I mean I never could get along with your novels and tales. Admiral Burney - Captain Burney then - lent me one wrote by his sister* when we were coming back with a slow convoy from the West Indies; but I could not get through with it - sad stuff, I thought. Though I dare say the fault was in me, just as some people cannot relish music; for Burney thought the world of it, and he was as fine a seaman as any in the service. He sailed with Cook, and you cannot say fairer than that.'

>>>'That is the best qualification for a literary critic I ever heard of,' said Yorke. 'What was the name of the book?'

>>>'There you have me,' said Jack. 'But it was a small book, in three volumes, I think; and it was all about love. Every novel I have ever looked into is all about love; and I have looked into a good many, because Sophie loves them, and I read aloud to her while she knits, in the evening. All about love.'

>>>'Of course they are,' said Yorke. 'What else raises your blood, your spirits, your whole being, to the highest pitch, so that life is triumphant, or tragic, as the case may be, and so that every day is worth a year of common life? When you sit trembling for a letter? When the whole of life is filled with meaning, double-shotted? To be sure, when you actually come to what some have called the right true end, you may find the position ridiculous, and the pleasure momentary; but novels, upon the whole, are concerned with getting there. And for that matter, what else makes the world go round?'

>>>*Frances Burney


Message 50e5a913p13-9949-1195+58.htm, number 127717, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 19:55:26
in reply to cf6d647e00A-9949-777+58.htm

Re^5: O'Brian on the power of novels

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 29, Max wrote
------------------------
>I make no claim as to the TRUE origin of the quote.
>On a Forum with The OED being referred to daily I wouldn't dare.

The OED is unhelpful but wikipedia offers:

‘ . . Of children as of procreation— the pleasure momentary, the posture ridiculous, the expense damnable . . ’
Letter to Nancy Mitford, May 5, 1954, cited from Mark Amory (ed.) The Letters of Evelyn Waugh (Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1982) p. 423

"The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable" is sometimes attributed to Lord Chesterfield (British statesman, diplomat and wit, 1694-1773), but has not been found in his works.

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Evelyn_Waugh

See also: www.quote-unquote.org.uk/p0000046.htm


Message 50e5a913p13-9950-409+57.htm, number 127718, was posted on Thu Mar 30 at 06:49:12
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9949-1195+58.htm

Lord C and Mr Boswell

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 29, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Wed Mar 29, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>I make no claim as to the TRUE origin of the quote.
>>On a Forum with The OED being referred to daily I wouldn't dare.

The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations includes this quote but only says 'attributed to Lord C'. So no-one has ever found it in his writings or pinned down its first appearance in print. Boswell, 20 years Lord C's junior, may have recorded it as a witty remark of Lord C's that everyone knew and enjoyed.


Message 321763758YV-9950-692+57.htm, number 127719, was posted on Thu Mar 30 at 11:32:34
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9949-1195+58.htm

Re^6: Seems to me...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


That anyone who truly believes that to be true....is doing it wrong.

On Wed Mar 29, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Wed Mar 29, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>I make no claim as to the TRUE origin of the quote.
>>On a Forum with The OED being referred to daily I wouldn't dare.

>The OED is unhelpful but wikipedia offers:

>‘ . . Of children as of procreation— the pleasure momentary, the posture ridiculous, the expense damnable . . ’
>Letter to Nancy Mitford, May 5, 1954, cited from Mark Amory (ed.) The Letters of Evelyn Waugh (Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1982) p. 423

>"The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable" is sometimes attributed to Lord Chesterfield (British statesman, diplomat and wit, 1694-1773), but has not been found in his works.

>en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Evelyn_Waugh

>See also: www.quote-unquote.org.uk/p0000046.htm


Message 5565447400A-9950-778+57.htm, number 127720, was posted on Thu Mar 30 at 12:58:08
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9948-1282+59.htm

Re^2: O'Brian on the power of novels

Jobbing Captain


On Tue Mar 28, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------


>'Of course they are,' said Yorke. 'What else raises your blood, your spirits, your whole being, to the highest pitch, so that life is triumphant, or tragic, as the case may be, and so that every day is worth a year of common life? When you sit trembling for a letter? When the whole of life is filled with meaning, double-shotted? To be sure, when you actually come to what some have called the right true end, you may find the position ridiculous, and the pleasure momentary; but novels, upon the whole, are concerned with getting there. And for that matter, what else makes the world go round?'

I have always thought the passage that follows, from Stephen's mouth, is POB's truest revelation of how he thought about writing the Canon:

"Sure you are in the right of it.  Intermissa, Venus diu, rursus bella moves.  And yet perhaps war, full war, martial war, may wind even more emotions to the breaking point -- the social emotions of comradeship, extreme joint endeavor, even patriotism and sefless devotion may be involved; and glory rather than a humid bed may be the aim.  The stakes are perhaps higher still, since physical annihilation accompanies defeat. But how is this to be encompassed in a book?"


Message 6b4d5312wd5-9951-515-90.htm, number 127721, was posted on Fri Mar 31 at 08:34:39
Sloth as a pet???

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Would you...really?

www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2017/03/31/is_it_legal_to_own_a_sloth_in_the_u_s.html


Message 321763758YV-9951-793-90.htm, number 127722, was posted on Fri Mar 31 at 13:13:51
Purple Prose

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com



Let's acknowledge this at the top: It's a thin slice.

To gaze across the great swath of written English over the past few centuries — that teeming, jostling, elbow-throwing riot of characters and places and stories and ideas — only to isolate, with dispassionate precision, some stray, infinitesimal data point such as which author uses cliches like "missing the forest for the trees" the most, would be like ...

Well. You get it. More like missing the forest for the raspberry seed stuck to the underside of the 395th leaf on the 139th branch of the 223,825th tree.

But that's what statistician Ben Blatt's new book, Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve, sets out to do, thin slice by thin slice.

He loaded thousands of books — classics and contemporary best-sellers — into various databases and let his hard drive churn through them, seeking to determine, for example, if our favorite authors follow conventional writing advice about using cliches, adverbs and exclamation points (they mostly do); if men and women write differently (yep); if an algorithm can identify a writer from his or her prose style (it can); and which authors use the shortest first sentences (Toni Morrison, Margaret Atwood, Mark Twain) versus those who use the longest (Salman Rushdie, Michael Chabon, Edith Wharton).

I can hear thousands of monocles dropping into thousands of cups of Earl Grey from here. "But what of literature?" you sputter. "What does any of that technical folderol have to do," — here you start wiping your monocle on your nosegay — "with ART?"

Not much, is the answer. Blatt's book isn't terribly interested in the art of writing. What it's fascinated by — and is fascinating about — is the craft of writing.

Technique. Word choice. Sentence structure. Reading level. There's something cheeky in the way Blatt throws genre best-sellers into his statistical blender alongside literary lions and hits puree, looking for patterns of style shared by, say, James Joyce and James Patterson.


A Balm For Bookish Know-it-Alls

To say that you likely won't find much that's truly surprising in Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve isn't a critique. In fact, it's kind of the point. Reading it, you experience the feeling, again and again, of having some vague, squishy notion you've always sort of held about a given author getting ruthlessly distilled into a stark, cold, numerical fact.

Which is, if you're the kind of person who likes to get proven right (hi!), a hell of a lot of fun.

Now: It's a book of statistics, and statistics rest on distinct sets of assumptions that must get made before any number can start getting well and truly crunched. So if you're curious about Blatt's methodology, boy are you in luck. Every chapter begins with Blatt chattily sharing with the reader — as chattily as a book this eager to walk us through the formula used to calculate Flesch-Kincaide Grade Levels can be — every aspect of his thinking. How he defines "Great Books." What constitutes a long sentence. Which chapter-endings qualify as cliffhangers, and which merely ... abrupt.

He drags you into the weeds with him, but he's a personable writer, and he's brought along a picnic lunch, so you don't mind the bugs.

Herewith, some of my favorite of Blatt's findings in Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve:
MEN WRITE LIKE THIS, BUT WOMEN WRITE LIKE THIS


Maidens, Interrupted: A chart of word use in classic literature, from Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve.
Simon & Schuster

It tuns out that — sit down for this next bit — authors who are women write equally about men and women, but men write overwhelmingly about men.

I know. I'm shaken, over here.

For every appearance of the word "she" in classics by male authors, Blatt found three uses of the word "he." In classics by women, the ratio was pretty much one-to-one.

Also: Male authors of classic literature are three times as likely to write that a female character "interrupted" than male characters. In contemporary popular and literary fiction, the ratio is smaller, but it's still there.
FAVORITE WORDS

Blatt looked for the specific words that authors use much more frequently than the rate at which those words generally occur in the rest of written English (i.e., compared to a huge sample of literary works — some 385 million words in total — written in English between 1810 and 2009, assembled by linguists at Brigham Young Univeristy).

His criteria: A favorite word -

   Must occur in at least half of the author's books
   Must be used at a rate of at least once per 100,000 words
   Must not be so obscure that it's used less than once per million in the BYU sample of written English
   Is not a proper noun

Here's some that jumped out at me.

Jane Austen: civility, fancying, imprudence (Story checks out, right?)

Dan Brown: grail, masonic, pyramid (I am sagely nodding, over here.)

Truman Capote: clutter, zoo, geranium

John Cheever: infirmary, venereal, erotic (Boy howdy, that's a whole Cheever short story, right there.)

Agatha Christie: inquest, alibi, frightful

F. Scott Fitzgerald: facetious, muddled, sanitarium

Ian Fleming: lavatory, trouser, spangled ("Pardon me, Blofeld; must dash to the lavatory, got something spangled on me trouser.")

Ernest Hemingway: concierge, astern, cognac (Yuuup.)

Toni Morrison: messed, navel, slop
'Lolita' And Lollipops: What Nabokov Had To Say About Nosh
The Salt
'Lolita' And Lollipops: What Nabokov Had To Say About Nosh

Vladimir Nabokov: mauve, banal, pun (As Blatt points out, Nabokov had synesthesia, a condition that caused him to associate various colors with the sound and shape of letters and words. "Mauve" was his favorite: He used the word at a rate that's 44 times higher than the rate at which it occurs in the BYU sample of written English.)

Jodi Picoult: courtroom, diaper, diner

Ayn Rand: transcontinental, comrade, proletarian

J.K. Rowling: wand, wizard, potion (Well, duh.)

Amy Tan: gourd, peanut, noodles

Mark Twain: hearted, shucks, satan

Edith Wharton: nearness, daresay, compunction (Man I love me some Edith Friggin' Wharton.)

Virginia Woolf: flushing, blotting, mantelpiece (Chandler Bing: "Could they BE more Virginia Woolf?")
ADVERBS

You know: nearly, suddenly, sloppily, etc. Writing teachers tell you to avoid them, that they sap the energy from a sentence. Strong, clear writing is fueled by verbs and nouns, they say, not by adjectives and adverbs.

Turns out, the adverb thing holds up: When Blatt combined several lists of the "Great Books" of the 20th century, he came up with 37 which were generally considered great.

Of these, 2 out of 3 — 67 percent — contained a significantly lower number of adverbs (less than 50 per 10,000 words) than occurs, on average, in written English.
EXCLAMATION POINTS

Well I mean: I hate 'em, at least. My husband uses them like they're powdered sugar and his emails are lemon bars. But I hate 'em.

You know who doesn't hate 'em? Besides my husband, I mean? James Joyce. Dude loved them.

Blatt took a sample of 50 authors of classics and contemporary best-sellers, totaling 580 books. The authors who used the most exclamation points per 100,000 words were:

5. J.R.R. Tolkien (767)
4. E.B. White (782. Gasp; nobody tell Mr. Strunk.)
3. Sinclair Lewis (844. I guess it CAN happen here.)
2. Tom Wolfe (929)
1. James Joyce (1,105)

Elmore Leonard — bless him — used the fewest: Just 49 per 100,000 words.

IT'S RAINING CATS AND DOGS AND CLICHES

When it comes to use of cliches, there's another gender split.

In Blatt's list of 50 classic and best-selling authors (scroll down to the bottom of this post to see them all), those who use cliches most frequently? All men.

5. Chuck Palahniuk (129 per 100,000 words)

4. Salman Rushdie (131)

3. Kurt Vonnegut (140. All those "And so it goes"es in Slaughterhouse-Five really hurt him here, I bet.)

2. Tom Wolfe (143)

1. James Patterson (160)

(In fairness to Patterson, Blatt includes cliches found in dialogue, and Patterson's characters aren't exactly going around coining new phrases with a Joycean fervor.)

The authors who used the fewest cliches? All women.

5. Veronica Roth (69)

4. Willa Cather (67)

3. Virginia Woolf (62)

2. Edith Wharton (62)

1. Jane Austen (A paltry 45 per 100,000 words, about 1/3 of the rate at which James "More Cliches Than You Can Shake A Stick At" Patterson busts them out.)

Now, again: It's a thin slice, looking at literature in this knowingly reductive way. It doesn't tell you everything, and of course it doesn't give you a true sense of the feeling you get when you read these authors for yourself.

But what it often succeeds in capturing, with astonishing clarity, is your feeling about these authors.

Case in point: The author who is most likely to mention the weather in the opening sentence?

Danielle Steele.

She does it in — precisely — 46 percent of her books.




A ranking of authors by cliche-use, from Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve.
Ben Blatt,Simon & Schuster

   


Message 321763758YV-9952-844+1a.htm, number 127723, was posted on Sat Apr 1 at 14:03:40
in reply to 43068923UWK-9948-809-30.htm

Re: He that would make a pun would pick a pocket

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.
>


Message 50e5a913p13-9953-369-07.htm, number 127724, was posted on Sun Apr 2 at 06:09:03
'In psychology how is the 'muddy children problem' solved?' . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. .  find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199657681%2E013%2E5270

it is also called the cheating husbands problem.


Message 46d3123e00A-9953-635+19.htm, number 127725, was posted on Sun Apr 2 at 10:34:42
in reply to 321763758YV-9952-844+1a.htm

Re^2: He that would make a pun would pick a pocket

Max



Clearly, no pocket is safe.

Message 46d3078d00A-9954-1193-30.htm, number 127726, was posted on Mon Apr 3 at 19:53:32
Where are Stephen and Jack? This is right up their alley

Max


On Wednesday, Britain formally began the process of withdrawing from the European Union, and already some leaders seem eager to get back to the glory days of naval warfare with Spain.

Joshua Keating
JOSHUA KEATING
Joshua Keating is a staff writer at Slate focusing on international affairs.

It all started on Friday when the EU published its negotiating guidelines for the upcoming talks to determine Britain’s future relationship with Europe. Unexpectedly, the guidelines included a section saying that any deal between Britain and the EU would not apply to the territory of Gibraltar unless Spain agrees. Gibraltar is a semi-autonomous British territory on the southern tip of Spain. While it has been under British control since 1713 and Gibraltarians have voted to keep it that way in several referendums, Spain has periodically made some rumblings about regaining control of the territory, which is located in a strategically valuable spot at the entrance to the Mediterranean. The EU guidelines indicated that Brussels intends to side with Spain.

Currently hopped up on a heady dose of post-Brexit jingoism, British politicians weren’t going to take this lying down. Referring to Margaret Thatcher’s leadership during the Falklands War with Argentina, former Conservative Party leader Michael Howard said in a Sunday interview that 35 years ago "another woman prime minister sent a taskforce halfway across the world to protect another small group of British people against another Spanish-speaking country. And I'm absolutely clear that our current woman prime minister will show the same resolve in relation to Gibraltar as her predecessor did."

A columnist from the Sun deployed a famous Winston Churchill line, writing, "We are only just into these Brexit negotiations and to be honest I have already gone from jaw-jaw to war-war. Our friends in Europe are quickly turning out to be our foes. It’s only in recent history where Germany and Italy have been on our side."

The Telegraph ran an interview with a former admiral warning that Britain’s Navy is much weaker today than it was during the Falklands War and that the government should boost defense spending if it wants to “talk big” over Gibraltar.

Prime Minister Theresa May is doing her best to calm everybody down, saying that while Britain won’t trade away Gibraltar’s sovereignty against its wishes, her approach is “definitely jaw-jaw.” When asked if she would rule out war, May laughed.

As for what Gibralter thinks, Fabian Picardo, chief minister of the territory, accused the EU of acting like a "cuckolded husband who is taking it out on the children."

This is only the first week.


Message 48bd7b1fttz-9954-1203+57.htm, number 127727, was posted on Mon Apr 3 at 20:04:58
in reply to 321763758YV-9951-793-90.htm

"It Was a Dark and Stormy Night..."

CPMariner
fbcroson@hotmail.com


Ach. When's the next Friends of the Library book sale, darling? I've got a 29-center here, back hardly broken at all.

What an interesting post (exclamation mark)

Does Blatt delve into special stylistic conceits? I suppose that would be nearly impossible, but I can't resist tossing in my two greatest pet peeves from a 76 year lifetime, about 70 of which were more or less marked by sentience and another 4 or 5 blotted out by the moronic teen years. Yes Virginia, all teenagers are morons. (j/k, partly)

Peeve #1: Dream sequences. I don't think I've ever read one that added anything to the story, and most of them are so obvious in intent as to put Freud to sleep.

Peeve #2: Italics. Either the word has sufficient impact and import on its own, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, either find another word or reframe the sentence (exclamation mark) Or rewrite the scene, or the chapter, or the book (double exclamation marks)

The worst, the most awful, the most aggressively irritating is to start the book with a multiple page italicized scene-setter:

The owl snapped its head around toward a shuffling of leaves below its gnarled perch. The man was dragging the woman's limp body toward a depression in the overturned earth. The owl couldn't know this, of course, but the man was a mechanical engineer with an MBS degree from Georgia Tech, where he'd met the woman at a fraternity orgy, neither suspecting that one day..."

Arrrggghhh (triple exclamation marks)

CP (with smiley)



     







On Fri Mar 31, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>>Let's acknowledge this at the top: It's a thin slice.

>To gaze across the great swath of written English over the past few centuries — that teeming, jostling, elbow-throwing riot of characters and places and stories and ideas — only to isolate, with dispassionate precision, some stray, infinitesimal data point such as which author uses cliches like "missing the forest for the trees" the most, would be like ...

>Well. You get it. More like missing the forest for the raspberry seed stuck to the underside of the 395th leaf on the 139th branch of the 223,825th tree.

>But that's what statistician Ben Blatt's new book, Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve, sets out to do, thin slice by thin slice.

>He loaded thousands of books — classics and contemporary best-sellers — into various databases and let his hard drive churn through them, seeking to determine, for example, if our favorite authors follow conventional writing advice about using cliches, adverbs and exclamation points (they mostly do); if men and women write differently (yep); if an algorithm can identify a writer from his or her prose style (it can); and which authors use the shortest first sentences (Toni Morrison, Margaret Atwood, Mark Twain) versus those who use the longest (Salman Rushdie, Michael Chabon, Edith Wharton).

>I can hear thousands of monocles dropping into thousands of cups of Earl Grey from here. "But what of literature?" you sputter. "What does any of that technical folderol have to do," — here you start wiping your monocle on your nosegay — "with ART?"

>Not much, is the answer. Blatt's book isn't terribly interested in the art of writing. What it's fascinated by — and is fascinating about — is the craft of writing.

>Technique. Word choice. Sentence structure. Reading level. There's something cheeky in the way Blatt throws genre best-sellers into his statistical blender alongside literary lions and hits puree, looking for patterns of style shared by, say, James Joyce and James Patterson.
>
>
>A Balm For Bookish Know-it-Alls

>To say that you likely won't find much that's truly surprising in Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve isn't a critique. In fact, it's kind of the point. Reading it, you experience the feeling, again and again, of having some vague, squishy notion you've always sort of held about a given author getting ruthlessly distilled into a stark, cold, numerical fact.

>Which is, if you're the kind of person who likes to get proven right (hi!), a hell of a lot of fun.

>Now: It's a book of statistics, and statistics rest on distinct sets of assumptions that must get made before any number can start getting well and truly crunched. So if you're curious about Blatt's methodology, boy are you in luck. Every chapter begins with Blatt chattily sharing with the reader — as chattily as a book this eager to walk us through the formula used to calculate Flesch-Kincaide Grade Levels can be — every aspect of his thinking. How he defines "Great Books." What constitutes a long sentence. Which chapter-endings qualify as cliffhangers, and which merely ... abrupt.

>He drags you into the weeds with him, but he's a personable writer, and he's brought along a picnic lunch, so you don't mind the bugs.

>Herewith, some of my favorite of Blatt's findings in Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve:
>MEN WRITE LIKE THIS, BUT WOMEN WRITE LIKE THIS

>
>Maidens, Interrupted: A chart of word use in classic literature, from Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve.
>Simon & Schuster

>It tuns out that — sit down for this next bit — authors who are women write equally about men and women, but men write overwhelmingly about men.

>I know. I'm shaken, over here.

>For every appearance of the word "she" in classics by male authors, Blatt found three uses of the word "he." In classics by women, the ratio was pretty much one-to-one.

>Also: Male authors of classic literature are three times as likely to write that a female character "interrupted" than male characters. In contemporary popular and literary fiction, the ratio is smaller, but it's still there.
>FAVORITE WORDS

>Blatt looked for the specific words that authors use much more frequently than the rate at which those words generally occur in the rest of written English (i.e., compared to a huge sample of literary works — some 385 million words in total — written in English between 1810 and 2009, assembled by linguists at Brigham Young Univeristy).

>His criteria: A favorite word -

>    Must occur in at least half of the author's books
>    Must be used at a rate of at least once per 100,000 words
>    Must not be so obscure that it's used less than once per million in the BYU sample of written English
>    Is not a proper noun

>Here's some that jumped out at me.

>Jane Austen: civility, fancying, imprudence (Story checks out, right?)

>Dan Brown: grail, masonic, pyramid (I am sagely nodding, over here.)

>Truman Capote: clutter, zoo, geranium

>John Cheever: infirmary, venereal, erotic (Boy howdy, that's a whole Cheever short story, right there.)

>Agatha Christie: inquest, alibi, frightful

>F. Scott Fitzgerald: facetious, muddled, sanitarium

>Ian Fleming: lavatory, trouser, spangled ("Pardon me, Blofeld; must dash to the lavatory, got something spangled on me trouser.")

>Ernest Hemingway: concierge, astern, cognac (Yuuup.)

>Toni Morrison: messed, navel, slop
>'Lolita' And Lollipops: What Nabokov Had To Say About Nosh
>The Salt
>'Lolita' And Lollipops: What Nabokov Had To Say About Nosh

>Vladimir Nabokov: mauve, banal, pun (As Blatt points out, Nabokov had synesthesia, a condition that caused him to associate various colors with the sound and shape of letters and words. "Mauve" was his favorite: He used the word at a rate that's 44 times higher than the rate at which it occurs in the BYU sample of written English.)

>Jodi Picoult: courtroom, diaper, diner

>Ayn Rand: transcontinental, comrade, proletarian

>J.K. Rowling: wand, wizard, potion (Well, duh.)

>Amy Tan: gourd, peanut, noodles

>Mark Twain: hearted, shucks, satan

>Edith Wharton: nearness, daresay, compunction (Man I love me some Edith Friggin' Wharton.)

>Virginia Woolf: flushing, blotting, mantelpiece (Chandler Bing: "Could they BE more Virginia Woolf?")
>ADVERBS

>You know: nearly, suddenly, sloppily, etc. Writing teachers tell you to avoid them, that they sap the energy from a sentence. Strong, clear writing is fueled by verbs and nouns, they say, not by adjectives and adverbs.

>Turns out, the adverb thing holds up: When Blatt combined several lists of the "Great Books" of the 20th century, he came up with 37 which were generally considered great.

>Of these, 2 out of 3 — 67 percent — contained a significantly lower number of adverbs (less than 50 per 10,000 words) than occurs, on average, in written English.
>EXCLAMATION POINTS

>Well I mean: I hate 'em, at least. My husband uses them like they're powdered sugar and his emails are lemon bars. But I hate 'em.

>You know who doesn't hate 'em? Besides my husband, I mean? James Joyce. Dude loved them.

>Blatt took a sample of 50 authors of classics and contemporary best-sellers, totaling 580 books. The authors who used the most exclamation points per 100,000 words were:

>5. J.R.R. Tolkien (767)
>4. E.B. White (782. Gasp; nobody tell Mr. Strunk.)
>3. Sinclair Lewis (844. I guess it CAN happen here.)
>2. Tom Wolfe (929)
>1. James Joyce (1,105)

>Elmore Leonard — bless him — used the fewest: Just 49 per 100,000 words.

>IT'S RAINING CATS AND DOGS AND CLICHES

>When it comes to use of cliches, there's another gender split.

>In Blatt's list of 50 classic and best-selling authors (scroll down to the bottom of this post to see them all), those who use cliches most frequently? All men.

>5. Chuck Palahniuk (129 per 100,000 words)

>4. Salman Rushdie (131)

>3. Kurt Vonnegut (140. All those "And so it goes"es in Slaughterhouse-Five really hurt him here, I bet.)

>2. Tom Wolfe (143)

>1. James Patterson (160)

>(In fairness to Patterson, Blatt includes cliches found in dialogue, and Patterson's characters aren't exactly going around coining new phrases with a Joycean fervor.)

>The authors who used the fewest cliches? All women.

>5. Veronica Roth (69)

>4. Willa Cather (67)

>3. Virginia Woolf (62)

>2. Edith Wharton (62)

>1. Jane Austen (A paltry 45 per 100,000 words, about 1/3 of the rate at which James "More Cliches Than You Can Shake A Stick At" Patterson busts them out.)

>Now, again: It's a thin slice, looking at literature in this knowingly reductive way. It doesn't tell you everything, and of course it doesn't give you a true sense of the feeling you get when you read these authors for yourself.

>But what it often succeeds in capturing, with astonishing clarity, is your feeling about these authors.

>Case in point: The author who is most likely to mention the weather in the opening sentence?

>Danielle Steele.

>She does it in — precisely — 46 percent of her books.

>
>
>
>A ranking of authors by cliche-use, from Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve.
>Ben Blatt,Simon & Schuster

>    

>


Message 50e5a913p13-9955-618+1d.htm, number 127728, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 10:17:51
in reply to 46d3078d00A-9954-1193-30.htm

A war of words and very large oil paintings

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The absurd history of British-Spanish rivalry, from Henry VIII to Gibraltar
[www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/03/absurd-history-british-spanish-rivalry-henry-viii-gibraltar]

The war of words over the rocky outcrop is only the latest spat in 500 years of squabbling between the two countries
 photo Gib.png

Blood, fire and mayhem: the art of Britain’s conflicts with Spain - Sabre-rattling Brexiters should look at the paintings that depict the barbaric wars between the two European nations - John Singleton Copley’s The Defeat of the Floating Batteries at Gibraltar has taken on new significance in recent days.

One unlikely beneficiary of the rapid descent from triggering article 50 to sabre-rattling over Gibraltar is the City of London’s Guildhall art gallery, whose largest and strangest painting suddenly looks relevant again after more than 200 years. John Singleton Copley’s The Defeat of the Floating Batteries at Gibraltar is so vast, at nearly eight metres wide, that a special space had to be designed to accommodate it, yet as recently as five days ago it was as obscure as it was colossal. After all, it shows a forgotten moment in a forgotten war against a nation we have not fought for centuries.

In this giant “history painting”, which took nearly 10 years to create, Copley shows the foiling of a foul Spanish plot. With Britain distracted by the American revolutionary war, Spain made an opportunistic attempt to reconquer Gibraltar in 1782 using the ingenious novelty of floating gun batteries to bombard the Rock. The painting shows the floating platforms sinking in flames after the British battered them with superheated cannon shot. It is a horrific scene, with Spanish soldiers jumping in the sea and the magnanimous British commander, George August Eliott, ordering their rescue.
[www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2017/apr/03/blood-fire-mayhem-art-britain-spain-conflicts]

War threats over Gibraltar are rightwing imperial fantasies - Paul Mason: Sending ships to southern Spain only makes sense if you buy the delusion that Britain’s future involves rekindling empire, both economically and diplomatically
[www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/03/war-threats-over-gibraltar-are-rightwing-imperial-fantasies]

and finally, a current cartoon:
 photo Gib 2.png
[order-order.com/]
..........
Gibraltar was ceded to Britain by the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713:

'The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.'


Message 46d3078d00A-9955-625+1d.htm, number 127729, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 10:24:46
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9955-618+1d.htm

Re: A war of words and very large oil paintings

Max


Why does British commander, George August Eliott look so much like Donald Trump?

Message 50e5a913p13-9955-725+1d.htm, number 127730, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 12:05:36
in reply to 46d3078d00A-9955-625+1d.htm

Re^2: A war of words . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Apr 4, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Why does British commander, George August Eliott look so much like Donald Trump?

The resemblance is not great as these 2 portraits show:


It may be that Copley had only a vague idea of what Eliott looked like so he painted as a generic overweight upper class Brit.


Message 31bb0bc900A-9955-1065+1d.htm, number 127731, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 17:45:57
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9955-618+1d.htm

Re: A war of words and very large oil paintings

wombat


Anybody in 2017 is going to have had (does quick calculation) a gazillion forbears who were alive at the time of the Great Siege of Gibraltar and many might have been actors on either side.

Not so many humble artillerymen had their experiences put into a popular novel/biography of their as-yet-to-be-thought-of-daughter. But that's another (unreadable) story which has been handed down in my family. I've shyly decided to put forum members into the picture by quoting, from the Google books copy, some of my gggggrandfather's very words on the evening of the 12th September, 1782, as he explains the situation to General Eliot [sic] and has it explained back to him:


ggggfather: ".... The battering ships seem to be drawing closer to us, and by this time they must be pretty well prepared to tell us what they mean. Two rockets went up about ten minutes since, and were answered by two of the same kind from the land. Boats have been plying from ship to ship, and I think we shall have a hailstorm, your honour, on the morrow"


Gen. Eliot: "You are not far out in your calculation, I think. The Duke de Crillon has been more alive than I have seen him for weeks past, and Monsieur D'Arcon has been as busy as if he were going to set the world on fire! - Warm work to-morrow for them as well as ourselves....Never fear, my brave fellow! We have fully determined to try the power of red-hot shot upon their hulks; and, if we do not fire some of them, I shall be greatly disappointed. I hope this attack will end the siege."





Message 50e5a913p13-9955-1194+1d.htm, number 127732, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 19:56:00
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9955-1065+1d.htm

1 gazillion = 64, it seems . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


It is easy to estimate how many ancestors one had any number of years ago by applyng the rule of thumb that 1 generation = x 2 people the age one is now per 30 years.

1783 is 234 years ago = 8 generations so I had 2 to the 8th ancestors my age (70ish)  = 256 or half that (128) of (just about) military age, of which half (64) would have been male.

So 1 gazillion = 64, it seems.  The actual number of ancestors would be smaller because of the common practice of marrying one’s first or second cousins.

None of them,I am confidents, fought on the Spanish side - my mother’s family were Huguenots, refugees from Catholic persecution and my father’s rural Yorkshire all the way back. If any fought for the British, they are unknown to us today but we do have this pleasing fiction instead:

' . . She was reputed to be the daughter of old Captain Squire RN whose ship was said to have been paid off at the end of ‘the Napoleonic wars at Whitby, whereupon Captain Squire had picked up an oar, put it across his shoulder and set off to walk across the North Yorkshire Moors and it was not until he was just south of Northallerton on the Ripon Road that a man said to him these blessed words "Eh Governor what is that thing that you are carrying on your  shoulder?’ and then Captain Squire knew he was far enough from the sea to settle down and spend his last days.  

So he acquired land nearby, built a house, married, had a daughter and in the end died quite happily far from the sea — well sixty miles anyway. Miss Squire the daughter left Southfield to father’s father, provided only that he took the name Squire and he is reputed to have said that "he would take any name so long as it had some land attached to it”.

In fact she was the last of a line of money-grubbing lawyers/men of business who had lived in Ainderby Steeple  ‘since the parish registers were first kept . . ‘ but the sea captain is much more romantic.
............
Thank you for the excerpt from yr ancestor’s book, which has the authentic tones of the 18th century - please supply a reference or even better a working link - you'll need to use tinyurl.com to shorten the URL for Ceilidh.


Message 31bb0bc900A-9955-1275+1d.htm, number 127733, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 21:15:46
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9955-1194+1d.htm

Re: 1 gazillion = 64, it seems . .

Guest


On Tue Apr 4, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------

>So 1 gazillion = 64, it seems.  


Thanks for the "64", Christo - it's a reasonable sort of number.  I worked out the number of generations to me when my grandmother first showed me the book. I have never had much confidence in my maths.


> and then Captain Squire knew he was far enough from the sea to settle down and spend his last days.


Yes, an unlikely story given that the greatest seaman of them all was a Yorkshireman.


>Thank you for the excerpt from yr ancestor’s book, which has the authentic tones of the 18th century - please supply a reference or even better a working link - you'll need to use tinyurl.com to shorten the URL for Ceilidh.


The novel/biography I quoted from is Mary Anne Wellington: The Soldier's Daughter, Wife and Widow. It makes dire reading (I can't bring myself to read it again) and is to be found at the various sites that digitise old texts . Here is the Google Books URL:

https://tinyurl.com/n294xx9




Message 50e5a913p13-9956-297+1c.htm, number 127734, was posted on Wed Apr 5 at 04:57:01
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9955-1275+1d.htm

Working link

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Apr 4, Guest wrote
-------------------------
>tinyurl.com/n294xx9

Message 4747f4808HW-9957-760+15.htm, number 127735, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 12:41:15
in reply to 43068923UWK-9948-809-30.htm

From my archives (since it's started)

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Jason Redd raised his children to love working the land, but due to various twists of fate most of them are in city office jobs now.  They've often talked about moving back to the country but have never gone beyond dreams and discussion.

Then one day Mark, one of his three boys, sees an ad for a cattle ranch that for some reason catches his eye.  He drives out to look at it, falls in love and comes back to talk to his brothers.  They look at it, talk over possible plans for a few weeks, and finally take the plunge.

On the porch of their shared mess hall they install some hanging prisms for decoration and wind chimes.  Their father spends a lot of time visiting and helping with some of the planning, and one day stops by those prisms, stares at them for a while, and then arranges them so the setting sun striking through them places all its lowest-frequency light on the wall at one spot, giving off an intense and beautiful glow.  "Boys", he then says, "I know what to name this ranch: The Burning Prism."

"That's got a poetic ring, Dad, but why?", asks Lonny.

"Because", says Jason, "it's where the Redd sons raise meat!"

Ah, thank you, thank you very much.  You're too kind...

On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.


Message 4747f4808HW-9957-785+1b.htm, number 127736, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 13:05:09
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9955-618+1d.htm

Re: A war of words....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Wait, what?  Why "rightwing"?  I mean, I get that right wingers are traditionally thought to want more than left wingers (and not without reason), but by the same token left wingers are traditionally thought to fear war more than right wingers.  Why are war threats over Gibraltar not leftwing panic-delusions?

Are there British politicians saying they want to declare war against Spain at this early (and likely the only) stage, really?  I'm doubtful.  I'm not over there and maybe didn't hear.  But then, politically I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, myself, so I'm probably less likely to read into right-winger rhetoric an "imperial fantasy" that isn't really there.

On Tue Apr 4, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>War threats over Gibraltar are rightwing imperial fantasies...


Message 321763758YV-9957-809+15.htm, number 127737, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 13:28:46
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9957-760+15.htm

Re:Ouch, ouch, ouch!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


So bad...

I likely have missed something, but our sun is a yellow dwarf (not that there's anything wrong with that).  Does this joke take place in an alternate galaxy?

Is the punch line just half a pun?  Would make it a  'pun-- line'?

Inquiring minds want to know....



On Thu Apr 6, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>

Jason Redd raised his children to love working the land, but due to various twists of fate most of them are in city office jobs now.  They've often talked about moving back to the country but have never gone beyond dreams and discussion.

>Then one day Mark, one of his three boys, sees an ad for a cattle ranch that for some reason catches his eye.  He drives out to look at it, falls in love and comes back to talk to his brothers.  They look at it, talk over possible plans for a few weeks, and finally take the plunge.

>On the porch of their shared mess hall they install some hanging prisms for decoration and wind chimes.  Their father spends a lot of time visiting and helping with some of the planning, and one day stops by those prisms, stares at them for a while, and then arranges them so the setting sun striking through them places all its lowest-frequency light on the wall at one spot, giving off an intense and beautiful glow.  "Boys", he then says, "I know what to name this ranch: The Burning Prism."

>"That's got a poetic ring, Dad, but why?", asks Lonny.

>"Because", says Jason, "it's where the Redd sons raise meat!"

>

>

>

>Ah, thank you, thank you very much.  You're too kind...

>On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
>------------------------------------
>>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>>https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.


Message aec70bac00A-9957-863+1b.htm, number 127738, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 14:23:11
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9957-785+1b.htm

Re^2: A war of words....

Max


I always thought of Atilla as being a left wing sort of guy.
Maybe "kill all the men and rape their women" doesn't readily fit in a political spectrum.
For all I know Atilla could have been head of the Hun Piece and Love Party.




n Thu Apr 6, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Wait, what?  Why "rightwing"?  I mean, I get that right wingers are traditionally thought to want more than left wingers (and not without reason), but by the same token left wingers are traditionally thought to fear war more than right wingers.  Why are war threats over Gibraltar not leftwing panic-delusions?

>Are there British politicians saying they want to declare war against Spain at this early (and likely the only) stage, really?  I'm doubtful.  I'm not over there and maybe didn't hear.  But then, politically I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, myself, so I'm probably less likely to read into right-winger rhetoric an "imperial fantasy" that isn't really there.

>On Tue Apr 4, Chrístõ wrote
>---------------------------
>>War threats over Gibraltar are rightwing imperial fantasies...


Message 6b4d5a5900A-9957-1188+1b.htm, number 127739, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 19:49:10
in reply to aec70bac00A-9957-863+1b.htm

Re^3: A war of words....

YA


Grab them by the piecey,  there's not a thing they can do...



On Thu Apr 6, Max wrote
-----------------------
>I always thought of Atilla as being a left wing sort of guy.
>Maybe "kill all the men and rape their women" doesn't readily fit in a political spectrum.
>For all I know Atilla could have been head of the Hun Piece and Love Party.
>
>
>
>
>n Thu Apr 6, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Wait, what?  Why "rightwing"?  I mean, I get that right wingers are traditionally thought to want more than left wingers (and not without reason), but by the same token left wingers are traditionally thought to fear war more than right wingers.  Why are war threats over Gibraltar not leftwing panic-delusions?

>>Are there British politicians saying they want to declare war against Spain at this early (and likely the only) stage, really?  I'm doubtful.  I'm not over there and maybe didn't hear.  But then, politically I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, myself, so I'm probably less likely to read into right-winger rhetoric an "imperial fantasy" that isn't really there.

>>On Tue Apr 4, Chrístõ wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>War threats over Gibraltar are rightwing imperial fantasies...


Message 4747f4808HW-9957-1236+15.htm, number 127740, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 20:36:09
in reply to 321763758YV-9957-809+15.htm

Re^2: uch, ouch, ouch!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


You may have missed the part where Jason arranged the prisms so that all the lowest-frequency light appeared on one location.  To be perfectly accurate that spot would be where the sun's red rays meet, not where the red sun's rays meet—but that would have spoiled part of the pun.

On Thu Apr 6, akatow wrote
--------------------------
>So bad...

>I likely have missed something, but our sun is a yellow dwarf (not that there's anything wrong with that).  Does this joke take place in an alternate galaxy?

>Is the punch line just half a pun?  Would make it a  'pun-- line'?  Inquiring minds want to know....

>On Thu Apr 6, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------

Jason Redd raised his children to love working the land, but due to various twists of fate most of them are in city office jobs now.  They've often talked about moving back to the country but have never gone beyond dreams and discussion.

>>Then one day Mark, one of his three boys, sees an ad for a cattle ranch that for some reason catches his eye.  He drives out to look at it, falls in love and comes back to talk to his brothers.  They look at it, talk over possible plans for a few weeks, and finally take the plunge.

>>On the porch of their shared mess hall they install some hanging prisms for decoration and wind chimes.  Their father spends a lot of time visiting and helping with some of the planning, and one day stops by those prisms, stares at them for a while, and then arranges them so the setting sun striking through them places all its lowest-frequency light on the wall at one spot, giving off an intense and beautiful glow.  "Boys", he then says, "I know what to name this ranch: The Burning Prism."

>>"That's got a poetic ring, Dad, but why?", asks Lonny.

>>"Because", says Jason, "it's where the Redd sons raise meat!"

>><beat>

>><another beat>

>><half a third beat, sweating slightly>

>>Ah, thank you, thank you very much.  You're too kind...

>>On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
>>------------------------------------
>>>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>>>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>>>https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>>>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>>>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>>>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.


Message 4747f4808HW-9957-1239+03.htm, number 127741, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 20:39:17
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9953-369-07.htm

Re: 'In psychology how is the 'muddy children problem' solved?' . .

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Ah, I see.  Like this:

Three logicians walk into a bar.  The bartender says "Would you all like a drink?"

The first logician says "I don't know."

The second logician says "I don't know."

The third logician says "Yes!"

On Sun Apr 2, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>. .  find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199657681%2E013%2E5270

>it is also called the cheating husbands problem.


Message 4747f4808HW-9957-1244+1b.htm, number 127736, was edited on Thu Apr 6 at 20:43:57
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-9957-785+1b.htm

Re: A war of words....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Wait, what?  Why "rightwing"?  I mean, I get that right wingers are traditionally thought to want war more than left wingers (and not without reason), but by the same token left wingers are traditionally thought to fear war more than right wingers.  Why are war threats over Gibraltar not leftwing panic-delusions?

Are there British politicians saying they want to declare war against Spain at this early (and likely the only) stage, really?  I'm doubtful.  I'm not over there and maybe didn't hear.  But then, politically I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, myself, so I'm probably less likely to read into right-winger rhetoric an "imperial fantasy" that isn't really there.

On Tue Apr 4, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>War threats over Gibraltar are rightwing imperial fantasies...

[ This message was edited on Thu Apr 6 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-9957-1252+1b.htm, number 127742, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 20:52:51
in reply to aec70bac00A-9957-863+1b.htm

Re^3: A war of words....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Really, Max, didn't you know?  All imperialism is right-wing.  So for that matter is all violence.  Come to think of it so is racism (sheesh, I guess there are a lot of things I have to answer for), love of money, anti-science (pace Neil DeGrasse Tyson), fundamentalisms of all sorts...oh, yes, and oppression of the US colonies.

Truthfully it's just a phrase I heard somewhen during the Reagan years; I liked it and kept it.

On Thu Apr 6, Max wrote
-----------------------
>I always thought of Atilla as being a left wing sort of guy.
>Maybe "kill all the men and rape their women" doesn't readily fit in a political spectrum.
>For all I know Atilla could have been head of the Hun Piece and Love Party.

>Thu Apr 6, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Wait, what?  Why "rightwing"?  I mean, I get that right wingers are traditionally thought to want more than left wingers (and not without reason), but by the same token left wingers are traditionally thought to fear war more than right wingers.  Why are war threats over Gibraltar not leftwing panic-delusions?

>>Are there British politicians saying they want to declare war against Spain at this early (and likely the only) stage, really?  I'm doubtful.  I'm not over there and maybe didn't hear.  But then, politically I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, myself, so I'm probably less likely to read into right-winger rhetoric an "imperial fantasy" that isn't really there.

>>On Tue Apr 4, Chrístõ wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>War threats over Gibraltar are rightwing imperial fantasies...


Message 4747f4808HW-9958-644+14.htm, number 127743, was posted on Fri Apr 7 at 10:44:14
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9957-760+15.htm

Re: From my archives (since it's started)

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


On Thu Apr 6, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
Jason Redd raised his children to love working the land, but due to various twists of fate most of them are in city office jobs now.  They've often talked about moving back to the country but have never gone beyond dreams and discussion.

Then one day Mark, one of his three boys, sees an ad for a cattle ranch that for some reason catches his eye.  He drives out to look at it, falls in love and comes back to talk to his brothers.  They look at it, talk over possible plans for a few weeks, and finally take the plunge.

On the porch of their shared mess hall they install some hanging prisms for decoration and wind chimes.  Their father spends a lot of time visiting and helping with some of the planning, and one day stops by those prisms, stares at them for a while, and then arranges them so the setting sun striking through them places all its lowest-frequency light on the wall at one spot, giving off an intense and beautiful glow.  "Boys", he then says, "I know what to name this ranch: The Burning Prism."

"That's got a poetic ring, Dad, but why?", asks Lonny.

"Because", says Jason, "it's where the Redd sons raise meat!"

<beat>

<another beat>

<half a third beat, sweating slightly>

Ah, thank you, thank you very much.  You're too kind...

>On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
>------------------------------------
>>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>>https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.


Message 4747f4808HW-9958-645+14.htm, number 127735, was edited on Fri Apr 7 at 10:45:12
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-9957-760+15.htm

From my archives (since it's started)

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Jason Redd raised his children to love working the land, but due to various twists of fate most of them are in city office jobs now.  They've often talked about moving back to the country but have never gone beyond dreams and discussion.

Then one day Mark, one of his three boys, sees an ad for a cattle ranch that for some reason catches his eye.  He drives out to look at it, falls in love and comes back to talk to his brothers.  They look at it, talk over possible plans for a few weeks, and finally take the plunge.

On the porch of their shared mess hall they install some hanging prisms for decoration and wind chimes.  Their father spends a lot of time visiting and helping with some of the planning, and one day stops by those prisms, stares at them for a while, and then arranges them so the setting sun striking through them places all its lowest-frequency light on the wall at one spot, giving off an intense and beautiful glow.  "Boys", he then says, "I know what to name this ranch: The Burning Prism."

"That's got a poetic ring, Dad, but why?", asks Lonny.

"Because", says Jason, "it's where the Redd sons raise meat!"

<beat>

<another beat>

<half a third beat, sweating slightly>

Ah, thank you, thank you very much.  You're too kind...

On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.

[ This message was edited on Fri Apr 7 by the author ]


Message aeda02d000A-9958-845-07.htm, number 127744, was posted on Fri Apr 7 at 14:05:21
Jack's telescope would be busy tonight - 4/7/17

Whoreson Beast


www.nbcnews.com/mach/space/watch-jupiter-shine-brighter-any-other-time-year-n743366

Message 53b8e143cb5-9960-1119-30.htm, number 127745, was posted on Sun Apr 9 at 18:39:35
"Paul Jones!" "Boston Beans!"

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


USS Constitution is back in the water after a couple of years in drydock for repairs. I wonder how much of it, if any, is left of the original ship? Presumably not much can happen to the beams or knees, since they're out of the weather and don't support much weight any more.

'Old Ironsides' to return after restoration


Message 46d1c29b00A-9961-56-30.htm, number 127746, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 00:55:45
Slope away

Max


I'm reading a Nick Hornsby book.
One character repeatedly uses the phrase "slope away".
My recollection is that Jack takes issue with Stephens use of the term.
Is it commonly used in the U.K.?  

Message 53d88c8a00A-9961-532+4c.htm, number 127747, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 08:52:05
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-9948-721+59.htm

Re^4: O'Brian on the power of novels

Kate Bunting


On Tue Mar 28, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>I almost - but not quite - ordered a book by Prevost, La Fayette or Richardson from the library. They're all there. One feels one should. Has anyone here read anything by any of them?
>
We studied La Princesse de Cleves (La Fayette) when I was at uni long ago. She is married to a 'dull but worthy' man, falls for a handsome charmer but decides not to marry him when her husband conveniently dies.
Dr Johnson said something like "If you read Richardson for the story you would hang yourself from impatience; you read him for the sentiment."

Message 50e5a913p13-9961-821-07.htm, number 127748, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 13:41:12
‘What is the national language of Vanuatu?. . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today's question from Oxford Reference; to find the answer go to: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780192800619%2E013%2E0177

Message 50e5a913p13-9961-832+1e.htm, number 127749, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 13:52:03
in reply to 46d1c29b00A-9961-56-30.htm

Re: Slope away

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Apr 10, Max wrote
------------------------
>I'm reading a Nick Hornsby book.
>One character repeatedly uses the phrase "slope away".
>My recollection is that Jack takes issue with Stephens use of the term.
>Is it commonly used in the U.K.?  

No. Nor is it found in the OED. Thias is the sense, I suppose:

‘slo e, v.2 Old English
Originally U.S.; perhaps formed by wrong analysis of let's lope . . colloq.
1.
a. intr. To make off, depart, decamp.
1839 F. Marryat Diary in Amer. II. 232 Here are two real American words:—‘Sloping’—for slinking away . .

b. With advs., esp. off. Also, to move (off, in, etc.) in a leisurely manner; to amble (in, etc.); to depart surreptitiously, sneak off.
1851 M. Reid Rifle Rangers vi. 50 We can't go on to Washington—what can we do but slope home again? . .

2. trans. To leave (lodgings) without paying.
In the sense of ‘cheat, trick’, slope is recorded in dialect use from 1828 onwards.
1908 Reminis. Stonemason 100 They had ‘sloped’ their lodgings.’

Jack no doubt regarded it as vulgar slang.


Message 50e5a913p13-9961-832+1e.htm, number 127749, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 13:52:03
in reply to 46d1c29b00A-9961-56-30.htm

Re: Slope away

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Apr 10, Max wrote
------------------------
>I'm reading a Nick Hornsby book.
>One character repeatedly uses the phrase "slope away".
>My recollection is that Jack takes issue with Stephens use of the term.
>Is it commonly used in the U.K.?  

No. Nor is it found in the OED. Thias is the sense, I suppose:

‘slo e, v.2 Old English
Originally U.S.; perhaps formed by wrong analysis of let's lope . . colloq.
1.
a. intr. To make off, depart, decamp.
1839 F. Marryat Diary in Amer. II. 232 Here are two real American words:—‘Sloping’—for slinking away . .

b. With advs., esp. off. Also, to move (off, in, etc.) in a leisurely manner; to amble (in, etc.); to depart surreptitiously, sneak off.
1851 M. Reid Rifle Rangers vi. 50 We can't go on to Washington—what can we do but slope home again? . .

2. trans. To leave (lodgings) without paying.
In the sense of ‘cheat, trick’, slope is recorded in dialect use from 1828 onwards.
1908 Reminis. Stonemason 100 They had ‘sloped’ their lodgings.’

Jack no doubt regarded it as vulgar slang.


Message 50e5a913p13-9961-836-90.htm, number 127750, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 13:55:40
Problem with Chrome

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


It won’t let me enter a reply to post. Instead I get:

'This page isn’t working

Chrome detected unusual code on this page and blocked it to protect your personal information (for example, passwords, phone numbers, and credit cards).

Try visiting the site's homepage. (i.e Nortons website)

ERR_BLOCKED_BY_XSS_AUDITOR’

I’ve never had this before. Has anyone else?


Message 6b13985300A-9961-883+5a.htm, number 127751, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 14:42:43
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9961-836-90.htm

Re: Problem with Chrome

YA


Yep, chrome on android. Luckily I have firefox also installed, or I wouldn't be able to reply.  
On Mon Apr 10, Chrístõ wrote
https://www.wwnorton.com/pob/forum/ceilidh.htm----------------------------
>It won’t let me enter a reply to post. Instead I get:

>'This page isn’t working

>Chrome detected unusual code on this page and blocked it to protect your personal information (for example, passwords, phone numbers, and credit cards).

>Try visiting the site's homepage. (i.e Nortons website)

>ERR_BLOCKED_BY_XSS_AUDITOR’

>I’ve never had this before. Has anyone else?


Message 4588233100A-9961-1075-07.htm, number 127752, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 17:55:27
Musica notturna delle strade di Madrid - Bo

Whoreson Beast


Luigi Boccherini in exile. Wiki entry

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_notturna_delle_strade_di_Madrid


Message 46d1cc8400A-9961-1100+1e.htm, number 127753, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 18:19:50
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9961-832+1e.htm

Re^2: Slope away

Max


Interesting. The book is Funny Girl. Its set in UK of the 1960s.
Hornsby is pure Brit and his character is Brit and is written in what the writer clearly regards as era accurate dialogue.



On Mon Apr 10, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Mon Apr 10, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>I'm reading a Nick Hornsby book.
>>One character repeatedly uses the phrase "slope away".
>>My recollection is that Jack takes issue with Stephens use of the term.
>>Is it commonly used in the U.K.?  

>No. Nor is it found in the OED. Thias is the sense, I suppose:

>‘slo e, v.2   Old English
>Originally U.S.; perhaps formed by wrong analysis of let's lope . . colloq.
> 1.
>a. intr. To make off, depart, decamp.
>1839   F. Marryat Diary in Amer. II. 232   Here are two real American words:—‘Sloping’—for slinking away .  .
>
> b. With advs., esp. off. Also, to move (off, in, etc.) in a leisurely manner; to amble (in, etc.); to depart surreptitiously, sneak off.
>1851   M. Reid Rifle Rangers vi. 50   We can't go on to Washington—what can we do but slope home again? .  .
>
> 2. trans. To leave (lodgings) without paying.
>In the sense of ‘cheat, trick’, slope is recorded in dialect use from 1828 onwards.
>1908   Reminis. Stonemason 100   They had ‘sloped’ their lodgings.’

>Jack no doubt regarded it as vulgar slang.


Message 4747f4808HW-9962-608+06.htm, number 127754, was posted on Tue Apr 11 at 10:11:00
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9961-821-07.htm

Which leads to looking up "pidgin"...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Interesting:

A variety of Melanesian pidgin and the national language of Vanuatu, sharing official status with English and French, which are the principal languages of education. Bislama, descended from "beach la mar", is a lingua franca for a population speaking some 100 distinct local languages, and is more or less evenly distributed throughout the country....In towns today, most children speak their vernacular and Bislama. In the southern islands there has been an unbroken tradition of Bislama for almost 150 years. The constitution of Vanuatu states: Lanwis blong Ripablik blong Vanuatu, hemia Bislama. Trifala lanwis blong mekem ol wok blong kantri ya, i gat Bislama mo Inglis mo Franis ‘The language of the Republic of Vanuatu is Bislama. There are three languages for conducting the business of the country, Bislama, English, and French.’...

Most of this snippet of Bislama is easy enough to work out, but "mekem ol wok" gave me trouble for a while.  I think I got it, though; "make work", ie "conducting business".  Maybe "ol" is the definite article.

So I got curious about the origin of "pidgin".  It says here that it refers to any such amalgamation of two languages, and that it comes from "pidgin English" which originally referred to the language used between speakers of English and Chinese.  (It doesn't say which Chinese language—you know they all sound alike to round-eyes.)  In pidgin English, pidgin means "business", "affair".  "Etymology uncertain, but often alleged to be the Chin pronunciation of business".  I can't figure out whether "Chin" is a typo for "Chinese" or is yet another language; anyone know?

On Mon Apr 10, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today's question from Oxford Reference; to find the answer go to: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780192800619%2E013%2E0177


Message 4747f4808HW-9962-619+06.htm, number 127755, was posted on Tue Apr 11 at 10:19:00
in reply to 4588233100A-9961-1075-07.htm

Re: Musica notturna delle strade di Madrid - Bo

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Ah!  Had to read all the way to the end to find the connection.  I always wondered about that piece.  Thanks, Beast.

On Mon Apr 10, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>Luigi Boccherini in exile. Wiki entry

>en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_notturna_delle_strade_di_Madrid


Message 182d672f0Nn-9962-1043+06.htm, number 127756, was posted on Tue Apr 11 at 17:22:56
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9962-608+06.htm

We got s-s-s-steam heat

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Vanautu is an off-the-beaten path island.

The island is essentially a semi-dormant volcano.  The major caldera on its summit is presently a lake.  Can you imagine what happens when lava meets a significant amount of water?

Visitors to the island, including Paul Theroux, have voiced concern that Vanautu has no real evacuation plan.

I was invited to join an expedition there a while back, fortunately there many more concerns than the very obvious one, so I could easily decline.

r,

Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-9963-403+05.htm, number 127757, was posted on Wed Apr 12 at 06:43:12
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9962-608+06.htm

Re: Which leads to looking up "pidgin"...

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Apr 11, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
. . >So I got curious about the origin of "pidgin".  It says here that it refers to any such amalgamation of two languages, and that it comes from "pidgin English" which originally referred to the language used between speakers of English and Chinese.  (It doesn't say which Chinese language—you know they all sound alike to round-eyes.)  In pidgin English, pidgin means "business", "affair".  "Etymology uncertain, but often alleged to be the Chin pronunciation of business".  I can't figure out whether "Chin" is a typo for "Chinese" or is yet another language; anyone know?

……….
OED has:

‘pidgin, n. Chinese Pidgin English pidgin busin ss English business n. Numerous 19th-cent. sources give this etymology. The development in Chinese Pidgin English was perhaps via an intermediate form /ˈpɪdʒɪnɪs/ (with replacement of English /z/ before a consonant by /dʒɪ/), the final syllable of which was taken as a plural inflection and dropped.
1. a. Business; an action, occupation, or affair. Now arch.
1807 R. Morrison Jrnl. in Jrnl. Asian Pacific Communication (1990) 1 93 Ting-qua led me into a Poo Saat Mew, a temple of Poo Saat. ‘This Jos’, pointing to the idol, said he ‘take care of fire “pigeon”, fire “business”’ . .

b. to be a person's pigeon: to be a person's concern, responsibility, or area of interest or expertise.
1902 Bulletin (Sydney) 27 Dec. 32/1 Guarding a house is ‘not their pidgin’ as the Chinese say... One dog one billet is their motto . .

2. Originally: pidgin English. Subsequently gen.: a language containing lexical and other features from two or more languages, characteristically with simplified grammar and a smaller vocabulary than the languages from which it is derived, used for communication between people not having a common language; a lingua franca. Freq. used to denote languages which are spoken as a second language by all their users, but also for the first languages of certain regions. Cf. Creole n. 2.
1869 Galaxy Apr. 599 An Englishman lately translated into Pigeon the familiar address ‘My name is Norval; on the Grampian Hills my father feeds his flocks’, and the result was—‘My name b'long Norval. Top side Keh-lam-pian hill; my fader chow-chow he sheep’.
. . 1978 Verbatim Feb. 10/1 Both authors hold to..the Creolist theory, which traces the present-day Black English vernacular to a Plantation Creole, to a plantation-maritime pidgin, to an African origin . .


Message 50e5a913p13-9964-347-07.htm, number 127758, was posted on Thu Apr 13 at 05:47:05
‘Which island nation includes the Gilbert, Phoenix and Ocean Islands?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference; visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199685691%2E013%2E2023 to find the answer.

Message 6c1413d300A-9964-589+1a.htm, number 127759, was posted on Thu Apr 13 at 09:49:29
in reply to 53b8e143cb5-9960-1119-30.htm

Re: "Paul Jones!" "Boston Beans!"

Don Seltzer


On Sun Apr 9, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------
>USS Constitution is back in the water after a couple of years in drydock for repairs. I wonder how much of it, if any, is left of the original ship? Presumably not much can happen to the beams or knees, since they're out of the weather and don't support much weight any more.

>'Old Ironsides' to return after restoration

Still high and dry.  I think that the return to the water is scheduled for July.

Those associated with the Constitution usually specify about 10%-15% original wood. This is primarily the keel and I believe some of the lower futtocks.  All of the planking and almost everything above the waterline has been replaced numerous times.


Message 47e54d5c00A-9964-1343-07.htm, number 127760, was posted on Thu Apr 13 at 22:23:08
A Line of Battle Ship that never left dry land.

Whoreson Beast


"USS Recruit"

www.nytimes.com/2017/04/


Message 4747f4808HW-9965-576+06.htm, number 127761, was posted on Fri Apr 14 at 09:36:42
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9964-1343-07.htm

Re: A Line of Battle Ship that never left dry land.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


For some reason my eye is attracted to the hats.  I grew up at the back edge of an era when men wore hats, and although I never owned a hat such as are photographed here, I was taught the rules, eg take it off upon going indoors.  I remember that most men wore hats.

What I don't remember is that all men wore hats.  I don't see a bare head anywhere in this photo.

...Or a woman, come to think of it.

On Thu Apr 13, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>"USS Recruit"

>www.nytimes.com/2017


Message aeda05ff00A-9966-712-07.htm, number 127762, was posted on Sat Apr 15 at 11:52:06
Mapping the sea floor

Whoreson Beast


www.nbcnews.com/mach/innovation/ocean-discovery-xprize-aims-reveal-deepest-secrets-sea-n744916

Message 47e54d5c00A-9969-950-07.htm, number 127763, was posted on Tue Apr 18 at 15:50:03
What comes of an Administration with only a "Learner's Permit"

Whoreson.Whoreson Beast


www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/world/asia/aircraf

Message 50e5a913p13-9969-1296+44.htm, number 127764, was posted on Tue Apr 18 at 21:35:58
in reply to 53d88c8a00A-9961-532+4c.htm

Johnson on Richardson

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Apr 10, Kate Bunting wrote
---------------------------------
. . Dr Johnson said something like "If you read Richardson for the story you would hang yourself from impatience; you read him for the sentiment.”
 photo Screen Shot 2017-04-19 at 00.32.39.png
The Life of Samuel Johnson, LL. D. . . p. 292 1772-aetat. 63

Message 182d672f0Nn-9969-1350+07.htm, number 127765, was posted on Tue Apr 18 at 22:30:37
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9969-950-07.htm

What comes of defense analysts that don't even have a "learner's permit"?

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Tue Apr 18, Whoreson.Whoreson Beast wrote
--------------------------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/world/asia/aircraf

Ah, the New York Times as a source.  I remember Drew Middleton was their military affairs editor.  Prior to that he covered baseball for the Times.

Did the Times mention that exercises often position military and naval forces in a certain location for more than one purpose.

I spend eight years going to a joint US-Korean exercise that occurred at harvest time in Korea.  For decades Communist doctrine for the initiation of war was wait until the harvest is in, then attack.  As it turned out on one occasion I went to that particular exercise and found out it was preempted by Operation Desert Storm (in this case an attack by an Islamic aggressor).  I twiddled my thumbs for two weeks in Korea while everything that flew or floated when to the Persian Gulf.

Did the Times in anyway indicate that an exercise would somehow preempt national security operations or that a carrier task force can only handle one mission at a time?  Does the Times assert exercises have a higher priority than national security?

Perhaps Drew Middleton's legacy prevails.  Baseball teams only play one game at a time against one opponent at a time.  How many veterans do you think they have on the Times staff these days?

r,

Caltrop


Message 4747f4808HW-9970-742-30.htm, number 127766, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 12:22:47
Off-topic: Antibiotics and resistance thereto

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 47e54d5c00A-9970-886-07.htm, number 127767, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 14:46:00
Sea Cyclones

Whoreson Beast


www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/01/underwater-probes-detect-sea-cyclones-coast-africa

Message 47e54d5c00A-9970-891+1e.htm, number 127768, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 14:51:00
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9970-742-30.htm

Perhaps these will give you some comfort.

Whoreson Beast


Slightly on topic!

aeon.co/videos/how-our-bodies-can-create-billions-of-defences-against-disease-with-just-20000-genes

mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/science/giant-shipworm.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/


Message 47e54d5c00A-9970-1192-07.htm, number 127769, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 19:52:28
Discovery and extinction of Steller's Sea Cow

Whoreson Beast


www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/04/pleistoseacow/522831/?utm_source=nl-atlantic-daily-041917

Message 6242b06200A-9970-1247+1e.htm, number 127770, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 20:47:53
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9970-742-30.htm

Re: Off-topic: Antibiotics and resistance thereto

YA


All well and good for you, not so good for anyone you come in contact with that's immunocompromised; very old, very young, on chemo or some such. I'll let akatow smack me up for inaccuracy when she comes along, but as I understand it,  if you're given a course of antibiotics, you're given enough so your immune system can take control and knock the rest down.

I read a reddit thread a while back that astonished me as to how silly some people can be about this. They'll be prescribed a course of antibiotics, stop taking them when they 'feel better' then they'll have some antibiotics they can take 'when they feel a little sick' later on. Yeesh.


And then there's battery farming...but hey,cheap chicken!  

On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 4981ca22cZn-9970-1284+1e.htm, number 127771, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 21:25:37
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9970-742-30.htm

Antibiotics and resistance thereto

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Here are two articles on the topic:

www.cdc.gov/drugresistance/about.html

A short, but key, quote from this article: (emphasis added)

The use of antibiotics is the single most important factor leading to antibiotic resistance around the world.  Simply using antibiotics creates resistance.


learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/microbiome/resistance/

From this article:

Acquired Resistance

Bacteria can also acquire resistance. This happens when a type of bacteria changes in a way that protects it from the antibiotic. Bacteria can acquire resistance in two ways: either through a new genetic change that helps the bacterium survive, or by getting DNA from a bacterium that is already resistant.

Genetic Change

So how can a simple DNA change protect bacteria from antibiotics? Remember, DNA provides instructions to make proteins, so a change in DNA can cause a change in a protein. Sometimes this DNA change will affect the protein’s shape. If this happens at the place on the protein where an antibiotic acts, the antibiotic may no longer be able to recognize where it needs to do its job.

Changes like this can prevent an antibiotic from getting into the cell, or prevent the antibiotic from working once it’s inside. Once a change occurs, it can spread in a population of bacteria through processes like reproduction or DNA transfer.



On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 44e443c600A-9970-1428+06.htm, number 127772, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 23:48:20
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9969-1350+07.htm

Re: What comes of defense analysts that don't even have a "learner's permit"?

CJP


That's good, Caltrop.  I've often thought how wonderful it would be to express an opinion on topics about which I have zero knowledge and actually have said opinion be seriously considered by tens of thousands of readers.  Writing on military issues should require a competency test or something of the like.  

On Tue Apr 18, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>On Tue Apr 18, Whoreson.Whoreson Beast wrote
>--------------------------------------------
>>www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/world/asia/aircraf

>Ah, the New York Times as a source.  I remember Drew Middleton was their military affairs editor.  Prior to that he covered baseball for the Times.

>Did the Times mention that exercises often position military and naval forces in a certain location for more than one purpose.

>I spend eight years going to a joint US-Korean exercise that occurred at harvest time in Korea.  For decades Communist doctrine for the initiation of war was wait until the harvest is in, then attack.  As it turned out on one occasion I went to that particular exercise and found out it was preempted by Operation Desert Storm (in this case an attack by an Islamic aggressor).  I twiddled my thumbs for two weeks in Korea while everything that flew or floated when to the Persian Gulf.

>Did the Times in anyway indicate that an exercise would somehow preempt national security operations or that a carrier task force can only handle one mission at a time?  Does the Times assert exercises have a higher priority than national security?

>Perhaps Drew Middleton's legacy prevails.  Baseball teams only play one game at a time against one opponent at a time.  How many veterans do you think they have on the Times staff these days?

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9971-458+05.htm, number 127773, was posted on Thu Apr 20 at 07:37:40
in reply to 44e443c600A-9970-1428+06.htm

Ben Rhodes said it first

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Apr 19, CJP wrote
------------------------
>That's good, Caltrop.  I've often thought how wonderful it would be to express an opinion on topics about which I have zero knowledge and actually have said opinion be seriously considered by tens of thousands of readers.  Writing on military issues should require a competency test or something of the like.  

"They literally know nothing."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2016/05/05/white-house-official-on-some-reporters-overseas-expertise-they-literally-know-nothing/?utm_term=.2b3e460a6a37

If you can't trust Ben Rhodes, who can you trust?

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9971-549+05.htm, number 127773, was edited on Thu Apr 20 at 09:09:36
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9971-458+05.htm

Ben Rhodes said it first

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Apr 19, CJP wrote
------------------------
>That's good, Caltrop.  I've often thought how wonderful it would be to express an opinion on topics about which I have zero knowledge and actually have said opinion be seriously considered by tens of thousands of readers.  Writing on military issues should require a competency test or something of the like.  

"They literally know nothing."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2016/05/05/white-house-official-on-some-reporters-overseas-expertise-they-literally-know-nothing/?utm_term=.2b3e460a6a37

If you can't trust Ben Rhodes, who can you trust?

https://news.usni.org/2017/04/19/carl-vinson-carrier-strike-group-deployment-extended?utm_source=USNI+News&utm_campaign=d054d2df9c-USNI_NEWS_DAILY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_0dd4a1450b-d054d2df9c-230426389&mc_cid=d054d2df9c&mc_eid=e10fcda69a

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Thu Apr 20 by the author ]


Message 182d672f0Nn-9971-552+05.htm, number 127773, was edited on Thu Apr 20 at 09:12:16
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9971-549+05.htm

Ben Rhodes said it first

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Apr 19, CJP wrote
------------------------
>That's good, Caltrop.  I've often thought how wonderful it would be to express an opinion on topics about which I have zero knowledge and actually have said opinion be seriously considered by tens of thousands of readers.  Writing on military issues should require a competency test or something of the like.  

"They literally know nothing."

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2016/05/05/white-house-official-on-some-report

If you can't trust Ben Rhodes, who can you trust?

news.usni.org/2017/04/19/carl-vinson-carrier-strike-group-deployment-extended?utm_source=USNI+News&utm_campaign=d054d2df9c-USNI_NEWS_DAILY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_0dd4a1450b-d054d2df9c-230426389&mc_cid=d054d2df9c&mc_eid=e10fcda69a

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Thu Apr 20 by the author ]


Message 41802a2cUWK-9972-79+05.htm, number 127774, was posted on Fri Apr 21 at 01:19:18
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9970-1192-07.htm

The modern science of extinction.

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


No one figured it out before the Europeans?


On Wed Apr 19, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/04/pleistoseacow/522831/?utm_source=nl-atlantic-daily-041917

Message 41802a2cUWK-9972-90+04.htm, number 127775, was posted on Fri Apr 21 at 01:29:55
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9971-552+05.htm

Carrier Flip Flops

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Can't we get those Herring Busses into port where they will be safe?



On Thu Apr 20, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>On Wed Apr 19, CJP wrote
>------------------------
>>That's good, Caltrop.  I've often thought how wonderful it would be to express an opinion on topics about which I have zero knowledge and actually have said opinion be seriously considered by tens of thousands of readers.  Writing on military issues should require a competency test or something of the like.  

>"They literally know nothing."

>www.washingtonpos