Message 6cadb110gpf-9932-1035+07.htm, number 127651, was posted on Sun Mar 12 at 17:15:33
in reply to 46d1c13f00A-9932-825+07.htm

Re^2: Laurie Lee

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Lee evokes the stark poverty of Spain of that period, although for the most part misses the revolutionary mood that must have been seething at the time, given what Spain lurched into a few months later.
Poverty.... on the other hand, nobody appears to be starving, exactly. Having just finished reading the memoir of an escapee from North Korea (In Order To Live, by Yeonmi Park), as lean and harsh as life was for the Spanish peasant of 1935, it was luxury by comparison. There were a lot of beggars, a lot of women forced into prostitution, a lot of unemployment and underemployment - but he didn't see anybody reduced to eating grass and grasshoppers to stay alive.
Lee earned his pennies by busking with his fiddle. Sometimes (in Cadiz, for example) it produced not a peseta, but people did give him food. And wine, of course, which was cheaper than water.





On Sun Mar 12, Max Trainer wrote
--------------------------------
>>Great quote. hard to see how, but I do think this is the first time Laurie Lee had been brought up on the forum.

>"As I walked out.." is part 2 of 3 books. The first is "Cider with Rosie" wherein the author was a bit too young for me. But then this might be a real find for the Brits among us. Childhood in Wales.
>"As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning" is fine as a stand alone. But the quote below takes on a different meaning (innocence about to be lost?) when you know that the next book "A Moment of War" is the authors memoir of life the following year when he enlists in the Spanish Civil War.
>
>
>
>On Sun Mar 12, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>'As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning' is a lovely travel story - a  young man's tramping adventure in England and then Spain in 1935/36. Young Laurie arrives at Algeciras, after walking across Spain from Vigo. He feels he must at least see Gibraltar, and takes the ferry across the bay.

>>'I thought I'd drop in for the afternoon, present my passport, and have some tea. The old paddle-wheel ferry carried me across the water, smooth as oil and leaping with dolphins, while I enjoyed the brief passage of tax-free drinking, with brandy a penny a glass.

>>'To travellers from England, Gibraltar is an Oriental bazaar, but coming from Spain I found it more like Torquay - the same helmeted police, tall angular women and a cosy smell of provincial groceries. I'd forgotten how much the atmosphere at home depended on white bread, soap and soup-squares. Even in the conclave of Maltese-Genoese-Indians, one sensed the pressure of cooking steam.

>>'My welcome at the colony was not what I expected. The port officials looked me up and down with doubt. The rest of the travellers were passed briskly through the barrier while I was put on one side like an infected apple. Clipped phone calls were made to remoter authorities, warily seeking advice. 'Oh, his passport's all right. No, he's not broke, exactly. Well, you know.... Well, sort of...Yes...'

>>'Finally I was taken in a truck to see the chief of police, a worried but kindly man. 'But who are you?' he kept saying. 'It's rather difficult here. You must try to realise our position. It doesn't do, you know - if you'll forgive my saying so.'

>>'Anyway, it was agreed that I could stay for a day or two, if I slept in the police station, where they could keep an eye on me. So I was given a clean little cell, a cake of soap, and I played dominoes with the prisoners in the evenings. I wasn't under arrest, exactly; I was allowed out in the daytime so long as I reported back at night. But the restriction was tedious, and after a few days of bacon and eggs, a policeman conducted me back to the frontier.'

>>


Message 50e5a913p13-9933-373-90.htm, number 127652, was posted on Mon Mar 13 at 06:13:08
Boaty McBoatface to go on its first Antarctic mission

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Robot submarine, named after competition, will collect data from depths of Southern Ocean

[www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/13/boaty-mcboatface-to-go-on-first-antarctic-mission]


Message 50e5a913p13-9933-809+06.htm, number 127653, was posted on Mon Mar 13 at 13:28:59
in reply to 6cadb110gpf-9932-709-07.htm

Laurie Lee reads from 'As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The authentic sound of pre-war rural Gloucestershire.


Message 4747f4808HW-9933-914+5a.htm, number 127654, was posted on Mon Mar 13 at 15:14:26
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9933-373-90.htm

Re: Boaty McBoatface to go on its first Antarctic mission

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"Artist's impression"?  Sure looks like a photograph to me.  That's some trompe-l'oeil artist.
An artist’s impression of Boaty McBoatface in the Antarctic.

On Mon Mar 13, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Robot submarine, named after competition, will collect data from depths of Southern Ocean

>[www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/13/boaty-mcboatface-to-go-on-first-antarctic-mission]


Message 4588233100A-9934-447+59.htm, number 127655, was posted on Tue Mar 14 at 07:27:21
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9933-914+5a.htm

I'm assuming NERC doesn't put in at Argentinian ports?

Whoreson Beast


Especially with a BBC film crew aboard!  "Top Gear" reprised.

Message 50e5a913p13-9934-484+59.htm, number 127656, was posted on Tue Mar 14 at 08:04:35
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9933-373-90.htm

A gift to cartoonists

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



Message ae109a2eUWK-9935-34-07.htm, number 127657, was posted on Wed Mar 15 at 00:34:22
Capaberre in Singapore

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Only more funding can fix this.

www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-leonard-indictment-20170314-story.html


Message 3250991cwd5-9935-1162-90.htm, number 127658, was posted on Wed Mar 15 at 19:22:10
Fleecing the USN

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


It still goes on

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/15/fat-leonard-us-admiral-arrested-in-sex-for-secrets-scandal


Message 46d1cbb200A-9935-1215+5a.htm, number 127659, was posted on Wed Mar 15 at 20:14:40
in reply to 3250991cwd5-9935-1162-90.htm

Re: Fleecing the USN

Max



Admiral Loveless...choke..sputter.

You can't make this up.


On Wed Mar 15, Scourge's Housemate wrote
----------------------------------------
>It still goes on

>www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/15/fat-leonard-us-admiral-arrested-in-sex-for-secrets-scandal


Message 6b4d5362wd5-9936-609+59.htm, number 127660, was posted on Thu Mar 16 at 10:09:28
in reply to 3250991cwd5-9935-1162-90.htm

Re: Fleecing the USN

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Jack had his problems from the corruption in the dockyards. I hope
The supplies that were given were of good quality at least

Message 4747f4808HW-9936-1013-30.htm, number 127661, was posted on Thu Mar 16 at 16:54:08
Max, you got out too soon; there's money to be made out there, son!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Just found this revelation on Facebook (with photos):

"Hugh Jackman's claws might have forever doomed him to more and more Wolverine sequels, but Hollywood took a chance that paid off big in Les Miserables. You never see Jackman's hands in Les Mis, unless he's wearing specially constructed gloves to hide his Wolverineness. Rumor has it that he attempted to go gloveless in one intimate scene with Anne Hathaway, resulting in 3 stitches behind her left ear and a stern letter from her lawyers to the film's producers."


Message 46d1c05c00A-9936-1406+1e.htm, number 127662, was posted on Thu Mar 16 at 23:26:00
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9936-1013-30.htm

Sadly

Max


Sadly, I'm back in it. Maybe. I'll know in about 4 weeks.


n Thu Mar 16, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Just found this revelation on Facebook (with photos):

>"Hugh Jackman's claws might have forever doomed him to more and more Wolverine sequels, but Hollywood took a chance that paid off big in Les Miserables. You never see Jackman's hands in Les Mis, unless he's wearing specially constructed gloves to hide his Wolverineness. Rumor has it that he attempted to go gloveless in one intimate scene with Anne Hathaway, resulting in 3 stitches behind her left ear and a stern letter from her lawyers to the film's producers."


Message 46d1c05c00A-9936-1408+06.htm, number 127663, was posted on Thu Mar 16 at 23:27:44
in reply to ae109a2eUWK-9935-34-07.htm

Re: Capaberre in Singapore

Max


This is what comes from following your little admiral...


n Wed Mar 15, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>Only more funding can fix this.

>www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-leonard-indictment-20170314-story.html


Message 4747f4808HW-9937-665-30.htm, number 127664, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 11:04:51
Question about changing my Ceilidh settings

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I got to thinking I should change the presentation of my email address on this forum.  I still want y'all to know how to email me, but in order to make it harder for the bots to harvest my address, I figured I'd change it to "robhbridges -at- Gmail", or some such.

So I went to the Settings page ("registration options", it's called), made that change, and pushed the only button in sight, labeled "Submit".  But it replied "Please choose a username at least 4 characters long".

"Username"?  There's a field labeled "Your name (appears on the messages)"; it already contains "Bob Bridges" and I didn't change it.  Anyone have any ideas?


Message 46d1c05c00A-9937-964+1e.htm, number 127665, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 16:04:29
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9937-665-30.htm

Re: Question about changing my Ceilidh settings

Max


 Anyone have any ideas?

- Don't invade Russia in the winter.


Message 4abe5ca200A-9937-1066+58.htm, number 127666, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 17:48:23
in reply to 46d1cbb200A-9935-1215+5a.htm

Re^2: Fleecing the USN

YA


Looks like his retirement fund augmentation came up a bit short.

RIP Michael Dunn
On Wed Mar 15, Max wrote
------------------------
>>Admiral Loveless...choke..sputter.

>You can't make this up.
>
>
>On Wed Mar 15, Scourge's Housemate wrote
>----------------------------------------
>>It still goes on

>>www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/15/fat-leonard-us-admiral-arrested-in-sex-for-secrets-scandal


Message 4747f4808HW-9937-1070+1e.htm, number 127667, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 17:50:03
in reply to 46d1c05c00A-9937-964+1e.htm

Re^2: Question about changing my Ceilidh settings

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Lily Tomlin is supposed to have said: "I always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific."  Now I sympathize.

On Fri Mar 17, Max wrote
------------------------
- Don't invade Russia in the winter.


> Anyone have any ideas?


Message 50e5a913p13-9937-1257+1e.htm, number 127668, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 20:56:49
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9937-665-30.htm

Re: Question . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Mar 17, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I got to thinking I should change the presentation of my email address on this forum.  I still want y'all to know how to email me, but in order to make it harder for the bots to harvest my address, I figured I'd change it to "robhbridges -at- Gmail", or some such.

I have displayed my actual email address here for many years and I do not find myself flooded by bot messages.  My service provider, Plusnet (a BT subsidiary) has an efficient spam detector service and I use my email client to sort and manage my emails so that I am not overwhelmed by what does turn up. I have created hundreds of filters over the years which are applied to everything that comes in.

My advice is to set an email box just for Ceilidh and set up your client to add its inbox to your main inbox so that you don't need t0 look at it separately. Then if you do find yourself flooded with junk you can disable the link or close the box altogether.


Message 56003e26cb5-9937-1301+58.htm, number 127669, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 21:40:54
in reply to 3250991cwd5-9935-1162-90.htm

Re: Fleecing the USN

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



The only part of this that DOESN'T disgust me is the using of memorabilia of Douglas MacArthur as sex toys. There's a very odd sort of karma at work there.

Message 56003e26cb5-9937-1312-90.htm, number 127670, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 21:53:20
Wish me joy!

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


In conjunction with the 350th anniversary of De Ruyter's raid on the Medway, the Friends of the British Library are offering a special tour of the Historic Dockyard at Chatham on June 2nd. It's out of our era, but we will be seeing artifacts from the battle that are not normally on display. (I got to see Chesapeake's signal book, seized by Shannon, at the National Maritime Museum's library a few years ago.)

Price is only £10, a steal for these days.

If wars were won by feasting,
Or victory by song,
Or safety found in sleeping sound,
How England would be strong!
But honour and dominion
Are not maintainéd so.
They're only got by sword and shot,
And this the Dutchmen know!

The moneys that should feed us
You spend on your delight,
How can you then have sailor-men
To aid you in your fight?
Our fish and cheese are rotten,
Which makes the scurvy grow -
We cannot serve you if we starve,
And this the Dutchmen know!

Our ships in every harbour
Be neither whole nor sound,
And, when we seek to mend a leak,
No oakum can be found;
Or, if it is, the caulkers,
And carpenters also,
For lack of pay have gone away,
And this the Dutchmen know!

Mere powder, guns, and bullets,
We scarce can get at all;
Their price was spent in merriment
And revel at Whitehall,
While we in tattered doublets
From ship to ship must row,
Beseeching friends for odds and ends -
And this the Dutchmen know!

No King will heed our warnings,
No Court will pay our claims -
Our King and Court for their disport
Do sell the very Thames!
For, now De Ruyter's topsails
Off naked Chatham show,
We dare not meet him with our fleet -
And this the Dutchmen know!


Message 56003e26cb5-9937-1380-30.htm, number 127671, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 23:00:07
Funny thing about George Washington...

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



His house, Mount Vernon, is named after the inventor of grog. Admiral Vernon, AKA "Old Grogram" because of his grogram coats, was the first captain to order that the neat rum be diluted before being served out -- possibly under the mistaken impression that it would make the men less drunk.

Washington's elder brother served under Vernon and named the house after him.


Message 50e5a913p13-9938-470+59.htm, number 127672, was posted on Sat Mar 18 at 07:49:53
in reply to 56003e26cb5-9937-1312-90.htm

Re: Wish me joy!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Mar 17, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>In conjunction with the 350th anniversary of De Ruyter's raid on the Medway, the Friends of the British Library are offering a special tour of the Historic Dockyard at Chatham on June 2nd .  .

Membership 'from £40' support.bl.uk/Page/Become-a-friend

This summer's events:

¨ Wilton’s Music Hall Monday 03 April, 6pm £12 Maximum 10 people
¨ Theatre Royal Drury Lane Thursday 27 April, 2.15pm £14 Maximum 10 people
¨ Museum of London – Roman Gallery Tour Thursday 04 May, 2pm £16 Maximum 15 people
¨ Kensal Green Cemetery Wednesday 10 May, 2pm £15 Maximum 20 people
¨ Spencer House Monday 22 May, 12pm £17 Maximum 15 people
¨ Royal College of Nursing Tuesday 30 May, 2pm £10 Maximum 25 people
¨ The Institution of Engineering and Technology Archives Thursday 08 June, 2pm £10 Maximum 10 people
¨ Stephens House and Gardens Wednesday 14 June, 2pm £13 Maximum 20 people
¨ The Historic Dockyard Chatham Tuesday 20 June, 2pm £10 Maximum 15 people
¨ Royal College of Physicians Garden Tour Tuesday 27 June, 2pm £10 Maximum 20 people


Message 4588233100A-9938-616-07.htm, number 127673, was posted on Sat Mar 18 at 10:15:47
"What Happens When Queen Elizabeth Dies"

Whoreson Beast


www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge

Message 50e5a913p13-9938-718+07.htm, number 127674, was posted on Sat Mar 18 at 11:58:15
in reply to 4588233100A-9938-616-07.htm

Guardian letters

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Mar 18, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/17/how-britain-will-cope-with-the-death-of-the-queen


Message 46d1c05c00A-9938-768+57.htm, number 127675, was posted on Sat Mar 18 at 12:47:36
in reply to 4abe5ca200A-9937-1066+58.htm

Re^3: Fleecing the USN

Max


f too often I come across, and prosecute, embezzlement from casinos and I am frequently surprised by how small and simplistic the schemes are.

I wish to ask them "wasn't there some point, sometime, at least once..where the idea crossed your mind, ever so briefly, that taking whores and money from some pimp named Fat Leonard might not be the best idea you ever had?"


Message 18f7024d00A-9938-938+57.htm, number 127676, was posted on Sat Mar 18 at 15:38:19
in reply to 46d1c05c00A-9938-768+57.htm

Re^4: Fleecing the USN

Beached


Am always amazed at the number of people who do not seem to consider the consequences of their actions.  




On Sat Mar 18, Max wrote
------------------------
>f too often I come across, and prosecute, embezzlement from casinos and I am frequently surprised by how small and simplistic the schemes are.

>I wish to ask them "wasn't there some point, sometime, at least once..where the idea crossed your mind, ever so briefly, that taking whores and money from some pimp named Fat Leonard might not be the best idea you ever had?"


Message 4747f4808HW-9938-1267+57.htm, number 127677, was posted on Sat Mar 18 at 21:07:12
in reply to 18f7024d00A-9938-938+57.htm

Re^5: Fleecing the USN

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Louis L'Amour used to comment that crooks are generally optimists; they think they're smarter than everyone else, and don't believe they'll ever get caught.  So they risk a 20-year jail term for a sum of money they could have earned in six months.  Maybe even two months, for those who are almost as smart as they think they are.

On Sat Mar 18, Beached wrote
----------------------------
>Am always amazed at the number of people who do not seem to consider the consequences of their actions.  

>On Sat Mar 18, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>f too often I come across, and prosecute, embezzlement from casinos and I am frequently surprised by how small and simplistic the schemes are.

>>I wish to ask them "wasn't there some point, sometime, at least once..where the idea crossed your mind, ever so briefly, that taking whores and money from some pimp named Fat Leonard might not be the best idea you ever had?"


Message 50e5a913p13-9939-420-07.htm, number 127678, was posted on Sun Mar 19 at 06:59:55
‘In which 18th-century prose satire would you find the Blefuscudian navy?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . Find the answer to today's question from Oxford Reference at: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199567454%2E013%2E0258

Message 31bb0bc900A-9939-451+07.htm, number 127679, was posted on Sun Mar 19 at 07:31:31
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9939-420-07.htm

Re: ‘In which 18th-century prose satire would you find the Blefuscudian navy?’ . .

wombat


On Sun Mar 19, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . Find the answer to today's question from Oxford Reference at: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199567454%2E013%2E0258

Jonathan Swift seems a reasonable guess. But less obvious than Gulliver's Travels? The/A Tale of a Tub?


Message 46d1c63700A-9939-771+56.htm, number 127680, was posted on Sun Mar 19 at 12:51:17
in reply to 56003e26cb5-9937-1301+58.htm

How is this for an apropos quote

Max


You are remembered for the rules you break.


On Fri Mar 17, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>The only part of this that DOESN'T disgust me is the using of memorabilia of Douglas MacArthur as sex toys. There's a very odd sort of karma at work there.

Message 46d1c63700A-9939-774+07.htm, number 127681, was posted on Sun Mar 19 at 12:54:21
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9939-451+07.htm

Nope, Wombat has it

Max


I think that might be the country at war with Lillipute.



n Sun Mar 19, wombat wrote

>Jonathan Swift seems a reasonable guess. But less obvious than Gulliver's Travels? The/A Tale of a Tub?


Message 46d1c63700A-9939-1111-30.htm, number 127682, was posted on Sun Mar 19 at 18:31:21
Move over Ludwig - RIP Chuck Berry

Max


“I caught the rollin’ arth-a-ritis sittin’ down at a rhythm revue,”

Message 591e316400A-9940-291+57.htm, number 127683, was posted on Mon Mar 20 at 04:51:00
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9938-470+59.htm

Re^2: Wish me joy!

NiceRedTrousers


I'm a regular at Chatham Dockyards, usually twice a year with the kids.

In fact my son had a "kip on a ship" sleepover on HMS Cavalier (destroyer, 1944-1972) with his cub scout pack on Saturday night.  He made some rope in the 1,135ft-long ropery too.

Even though most of the land has since been sold off, the scale of the place is enormous - must have been like a small city in its heyday.

NRT


On Sat Mar 18, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Fri Mar 17, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>>In conjunction with the 350th anniversary of De Ruyter's raid on the Medway, the Friends of the British Library are offering a special tour of the Historic Dockyard at Chatham on June 2nd .  .

>Membership 'from £40' support.bl.uk/Page/Become-a-friend

>This summer's events:

>¨ Wilton’s Music Hall Monday 03 April, 6pm £12 Maximum 10 people
>¨ Theatre Royal Drury Lane Thursday 27 April, 2.15pm £14 Maximum 10 people
>¨ Museum of London – Roman Gallery Tour Thursday 04 May, 2pm £16 Maximum 15 people
>¨ Kensal Green Cemetery Wednesday 10 May, 2pm £15 Maximum 20 people
>¨ Spencer House Monday 22 May, 12pm £17 Maximum 15 people
>¨ Royal College of Nursing Tuesday 30 May, 2pm £10 Maximum 25 people
>¨ The Institution of Engineering and Technology Archives Thursday 08 June, 2pm £10 Maximum 10 people
>¨ Stephens House and Gardens Wednesday 14 June, 2pm £13 Maximum 20 people
>¨ The Historic Dockyard Chatham Tuesday 20 June, 2pm £10 Maximum 15 people
>¨ Royal College of Physicians Garden Tour Tuesday 27 June, 2pm £10 Maximum 20 people


Message 50e5a913p13-9940-402+06.htm, number 127684, was posted on Mon Mar 20 at 06:42:55
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9939-451+07.htm

Re^2: ‘In which 18th-century prose . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Mar 19, wombat wrote
---------------------------
Jonathan Swift seems a reasonable guess. But less obvious than Gulliver's Travels? The/A Tale of a Tub?

‘ . . I then took my tackling, and, fastening a hook to the hole at the prow of each, I tied all the cords together at the end . . then I took up the knotted end of the cables, to which my hooks were tied, and with great ease drew fifty of the enemy’s largest men of war after me.

The Blefuscudians, who had not the least imagination of what I intended, were at first confounded with astonishmen . . when they perceived the whole fleet moving in order, and saw me pulling at the end, they set up such a scream of grief and despair . . waiting about an hour, till the tide was a little fallen, I waded through the middle with my cargo, and arrived safe at the royal port of Lilliput.

The emperor and his whole court stood on the shore, expecting the issue of this great adventure. They saw the ships move forward in a large half-moon, but could not discern me, who was up to my breast in water . . the channel growing shallower every step I made, I came in a short time within hearing, and holding up the end of the cable, by which the fleet was fastened, I cried in a loud voice, “Long live the most puissant king of Lilliput!” . . ‘

[www.shmoop.com/gullivers-travels/part-1-chapter-5-full-text-2.html]


Message 31bb0bc900A-9942-325-30.htm, number 127685, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 05:26:12
You say BALcony and I say balCONy

wombat


Jack is saying that Tom Pullings "could not find a ship for a great while: and of course no ship, no promotion...I took him to dine at Slaughter's with Rowlands of the Hebe, who had lost a lieutenant overboard. They got along well enough, but afterwards Rowlands told me he did not choose to have anyone on his quarterdeck who did not say balcony, and unfortunately poor Tom had said balcony. It is the old story of the gentleman captains and the tarpaulins all over again."

Now, from the table talk of a literary man (Samuel Rogers) 1763 – 1855


"It is curious how fashion changes pronunciation.
....The now fashionable pronunciation
of several words is to me at least very offensive :
" CONtemplate " is bad enough but " balCONy "
makes me sick."

I've suspected Rogers of being one of PO'B's sources. In this case, I'm fairly confident that he is.

Rogers also makes Stephen's youthful career as a frequent duellist when at Trinity College, Dublin more convincing to me by writing about an actual Irish duellist "who had killed at least half-a-dozen antagonists". In fact, the fashionable classes were calling each other out even more regularly than PO'B had led me to expect. One, "a surgeon, ... made his appearance in the field stark naked, to the astonishment of the challenger who asked him what he meant. ' I know,' said H. ' that if any part of the clothing is carried into the body
by a gunshot wound, festering ensues ; and therefore I have met you thus." Doesn't Stephen present himself at an encounter semi-stripped, giving the same reason ?


Message 50e5a913p13-9942-409+1e.htm, number 127686, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 06:48:47
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9942-325-30.htm

Re: You say BALcony and I say balCONy

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 22, wombat wrote
---------------------------
I've suspected Rogers of being one of PO'B's sources. In this case, I'm fairly confident that he is.

via the OED it seems:

'balcony, n. Pron:  Brit. /ˈbalkəni/, /ˈbalkn̩i/, U.S. /ˈbælkəni/

Forms:  16 balcone, balcona, balconia, balconie, balconee, belcony, belconey, bellcony,  bellconey, 16– balcony.

< Italian balcōne (= French balcon, Provençal balcon, Spanish balcon, Portuguese balcão), formed with augmentative suffix -one from Italian balco, palco, scaffold, < Old High German balcho, palcho (= modern German balken, English balk) a beam.

Till c1825 the pronunciation was regularly bælˈkəʊnɪ; but ˈbælkənɪ (once in Swift), ‘which,’ said Samuel Rogers, ‘makes me sick,’ is now established.

‘1735   Swift Clever Tom Clinch in Wks. II. 298   The Maids to the Doors and the Balconies ran, And said, lack-a-day! he's a proper young Man.’
'


Message 4747f4808HW-9942-538-07.htm, number 127687, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 08:58:02
Happy birthday to Peter Goodman! (nt)

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Ok, just enough t to satisfy Ceilidh.

Message 4747f4808HW-9942-545+1e.htm, number 127688, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 09:04:53
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9942-325-30.htm

Re: You say BALcony and I say balCONy

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I vaguely remember Stephen saying that cotton and silk were different, that one was safer than the other...but I don't remember which, nor whether it's safer because less likely to bring infection, or because less likely to be carried into the wound, or perhaps easier to remove afterward.  I'm currently reading the series to one of my sons; maybe I'll run into it soon.

On Wed Mar 22, wombat wrote
---------------------------
One, "a surgeon, ... made his appearance in the field stark naked, to the astonishment of the challenger who asked him what he meant. ' I know,' said H. ' that if any part of the clothing is carried into the body by a gunshot wound, festering ensues ; and therefore I have met you thus." Doesn't Stephen present himself at an encounter semi-stripped, giving the same reason?


Message 50e5a913p13-9942-540-90.htm, number 127689, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 10:04:26
The Struggle for Sea Power: A Naval History of the American War of Independence (review)

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Highly recommended to Forumites as a good blend of the popular and the scholarly approaches to history:

Sam Willis; Atlantic, pp.608, £30 and Nortons: books.wwnorton.com/books/The-Struggle-for-Sea-Power/

Spectator review: Military history is more popular than respected. It is not hard to see why. It is masculine history, a trifecta of logistical planning, technical detail and violent death. It shows the value of hierarchy and duty, sacrifice and patriotism — disgraceful notions which the young and impressionable might be inspired to emulate. And,with its sudden twists from tedium to danger and its tidily destructive conclusions, it has tight plots.

One way to make civilian history as exciting is, as Eric Hobsbawm showed, to turn it into a false kind of fiction, true neither to the facts nor the life. Another, as N.A.M. Rodger did in The Wooden World, his ‘anatomy’ of the Georgian navy, is to integrate military history with political and social history. Sam Willis’s The Struggle for Sea Power has something of the Rodger touch: a ‘liquid history’ that integrates water and land, war and politics, global strategies and provincial societies. It is highly entertaining and readable, too.

In the liquid perspective, the colonies were not so much lost to the zeal of the rebels as mislaid by the incompetence of the imperial administration. The London government imposed taxes, and then a blockade against tax evasion, but there were too many creeks and bays on the American coast, and too many collaborators looking to profit along with the tax-evaders. Before the first shots were fired on land at Lexington in April 1775, the Americans had already bested the world’s most powerful navy — and without launching a fleet of their own. More than 90 per cent of the powder used by the Americans in the first two and a half years of their revolt had been smuggled in, mostly from the Caribbean, and often from unscrupulous British merchants.

As a regular visitor to Boston’s Museum of Fine Arts, I knew that Paul Revere was not a jockey by profession, but a silversmith. I did not know that Revere’s night ride to Concord began with him sneaking across the Charles River in a little boat. With Boston under military rule, water traffic was banned; before Revere mounted his horse at Charlestown, he had drifted silently under the guns of the 64-gun Somerset. Nor did I know that the British troops who were harried from Lexington to Charlestown had begun their miserable journey with a similar crossing, which left them ‘shivering in the Cambridge marshes, wet to their waistbands’ as they waited for the Navy to row across their supplies.

The Americans’ first liquid campaign predated the founding of their navy. In late 1775, Benedict Arnold, usually remembered as a traitor to the revolution, led an amphibious invasion of Canada. More than 1,000 men sailed ‘dirty coasters and fish boats’ up the lakes and rivers to Quebec. After losing most of his ammunition and half of his men on the way, Arnold was repulsed from Quebec by a garrison of sailors from HMS Isis. The colonists gave up on attacking northwards; Canada remained in the British empire.

The entry of France in 1778 turned a colonial civil war into an imperial, Atlantic war. The Royal Navy was split between blockading the Americans, defending the English Channel, and fighting for the Caribbean. If Britain could no longer win the war on land, would the rebels have won their decisive land victory at Yorktown in 1781 without liquid assistance from France?

French ships had already buttressed Washington’s Continental Army, by landing the Comte de Rochambeau’s troops in 1780. Now, the French West Indies’ fleet under the Comte de Grasse cut off Cornwallis’s maritime escape route from Yorktown, by defeating the Royal Navy at the Battle of the Chesapeake. The French then landed more soldiers, as well as 500,000 pesos, raised in Cuba by France’s Spanish ally, to pay for the siege and the Continental Army’s payroll.

Rodney’s revenge, defeating de Grasse at the Battle of the Saintes (1782), secured the West Indies but could not alter the outcome on the continental mainland. The Royal Navy could win battles, but not the war; the French navy lost battles, but won the war for the Americans. As everyone knows, the last shot of the American War of Independence was fired between British and French ships in the Bay of Bengal, at the Battle of Cuddalore on 20 June 1783.

Sam Willis is an enthusiastic sailor, an expert researcher, and a television presenter. Metaphors are spliced like mainbraces, the language of the lower deck gives a salty tang to the narrative, and the English language is brutally keelhauled — the Battle of the Chesapeake is a ‘heavyweight slugfest’. Still, The Struggle for Sea Power is careful in research and analysis, and a strong example of military history at its most ambitious: a ‘liquid history’ that, diluting the familiar, landlubbing account, globalises the politics of the American Revolution.

Dominic Green


Message 50e5a913p13-9942-828+5a.htm, number 127690, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 13:48:33
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9942-540-90.htm

The Battle of Cuddalore

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 22, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
. . As everyone knows, the last shot of the American War of Independence was fired between British and French ships in the Bay of Bengal, at the Battle of Cuddalore on 20 June 1783.


' . . battle was engaged shortly after four in the afternoon. The action lasted about three hours resulting in no major damage to ships in either fleet, despite all ships being engaged . . c. 100 dead and 400 wounded on each side . . word of peace officially arrived at Cuddalore on 29 June.'

To the dismay, no doubt,of all young officers and middies whose prospects of a career vanished in an instant. Even Horatio Nelson was on the beach for six years until war started again in 1793.

(wikipedia)


Message 47b879ac00A-9942-1169+1e.htm, number 127691, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 19:29:21
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9942-325-30.htm

Here is how POB said Balcony

Don Seltzer


I have a short YouTube clip in which POB says, 'that odious balcony'.

https://youtu.be/JU5HzI58YCg


Message 50e5a913p13-9942-1227+1e.htm, number 127692, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 20:28:10
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9942-1169+1e.htm

To make a working link . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . turn 'https' into 'http':

On Wed Mar 22, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>I have a short YouTube clip in which POB says, 'that odious balcony'.
>youtu.be/JU5HzI58YCg


Message 31bb0bc900A-9942-1248+1e.htm, number 127693, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 20:47:40
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9942-1169+1e.htm

Re: Here is how POB said Balcony

wombat


On Wed Mar 22, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>I have a short YouTube clip in which POB says, 'that odious balcony'.

>https://youtu.be/JU5HzI58YCg


And POB is in the right of it!


Message 4588233100A-9944-959-07.htm, number 127694, was posted on Fri Mar 24 at 15:59:34
Roof Canal?

Whoreson Beast


foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/norway-wants-to-build-the-worlds-first-ship-tunnel-1793606315

Message 50e5a913p13-9945-815-90.htm, number 127695, was posted on Sat Mar 25 at 13:35:17
Decapitating Rockall

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


How a 1970s Navy expedition blasted the top off the Atlantic islet - Operation Top Hat report surfaces from the archives

[www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/22/rockall_peak_blasted_off_navy_expedition/]

Message 47b879ac00A-9945-1320+06.htm, number 127696, was posted on Sat Mar 25 at 22:00:06
in reply to 4588233100A-9944-959-07.htm

Re: Roof Canal?

Don Seltzer


On Fri Mar 24, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/norway-wants-to-build-the-worlds-first-ship-tunnel-1793606315

See the semi-autobiographical first chapter of Hornblower and the Atropos.


Message 4588233100A-9947-451-07.htm, number 127697, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 07:30:59
Happy Intl. Whisk(e)y Day, 3/27

Whoreson Beast


www.internationalwhiskyday.org

Message 6b4d554cwd5-9947-534-90.htm, number 127698, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 08:53:42
Stephen's Bell

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/03/diving-bell/520536/

Message 46d1ca2600A-9947-597+07.htm, number 127699, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 09:57:31
in reply to 4588233100A-9947-451-07.htm

Re:Shagere

Max



I have a bottle of Pappy Van waiting my son's retirement from the Corps. Guess I'll have to make do with the 18 year old Glenlivet.
Shangere! (Mohawk toast. Rough translation: don't step off)


n Mon Mar 27, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>www.internationalwhiskyday.org

Message 18751d4awlj-9947-782-90.htm, number 127700, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 13:02:11
O'Brian on the power of novels

Brian O'Patrick
pobforum@acornns.com


I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian, through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can.  My fervent hope is that someone here will say, "Oh, sure, that's right here."  I need it for a literacy narrative in school.  It isn't the end of the world (nor even The Far Side of the World lol) if I can't find the passage, but it would certainly be nice to have since it perfectly supports a point I'm making.

Thank you in advance,

-Brian


Message 50e5a913p13-9947-812+5a.htm, number 127701, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 13:32:21
in reply to 18751d4awlj-9947-782-90.htm

Re: O'Brian on the power of novels

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
------------------------------------
>I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian, through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of novels .  .

If it has been digitised, google will have indexed it. So if  you can recall a phrase (or even better, several) from it, a search on those phrases plus "patrick o'brian" may bring it up.


Message d43867a100A-9947-826+5a.htm, number 127702, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 13:46:31
in reply to 18751d4awlj-9947-782-90.htm

Re: O'Brian on the power of novels

Guest


On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
------------------------------------
> I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian,
> through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of
> novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much
> more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can. My
> fervent hope is that someone here will say, "Oh, sure, that's
> right here." I need it for a literacy narrative in school. It
> isn't the end of the world (nor even The Far Side of the World
> lol) if I can't find the passage, but it would certainly be nice
> to have since it perfectly supports a point I'm making.
> Thank you in advance,

From "The Nutmeg of Consolation":
  ‘Sir,’ said Stephen, ‘I read novels with the utmost pertinacity.
  I look upon them – I look upon good novels – as a very valuable
  part of literature, conveying more exact and finely-
  distinguished knowledge of the human heart and mind than almost
  any other, with greater breadth and depth and fewer constraints.
  Had I not read Madame de La Fayette, the Abbé Prévost, and the
  man who wrote Clarissa, that extraordinary feat, I should be
  very much poorer than I am; and a moment’s reflection would add
  many more.’

Via www.singularityfps.com/pob/


Message 48bd7b1fttz-9947-871-07.htm, number 127703, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 14:31:13
"Six Frigates" by Ian W. Toll

CPMariner
fbcroson@hotmail.com


Hi folks :-) It's been for...ever since I was last here, so I s'pose it's likely that Ian Toll's narrative history "Six Frigates" has already come up for discussion.

But if not, my recommendation is Three Thumbs Up! (I'm an amateur economist, so I have three hands derived from endless iterations of "On the other hand..." :-) It's a wonderful book, written in a guileless, engaging narrative style, with loads of detail about the American post-Revolutionary period to flesh out its basic subject matter: the birth of the U.S. Navy.

If you're inclined to think that American politics has gone 'round the bend these days, Toll's treatment of the politics surrounding the creation of the Navy might reassure you. Those were ham-fisted, hard-drinkin' rough 'n' tumble days from the ship builders right on up to the president(s), making today's politics look like a tea party... (oops, sorry).

The tug o' wars (or should that be tugs o' war?) over the need for a Navy, its ship designs, its best uses, participation in such as the "Quasi-War" and the 1812 fiasco, the ongoing fracas between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists... it "covers the waterfront".

Enthusiastically recommended!

CPMariner (On the books as "Run", but there'll be no grog stoppage! ;-)



 


Message 18751d4awlj-9947-872+5a.htm, number 127704, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 14:32:19
in reply to d43867a100A-9947-826+5a.htm

Re^2: O'Brian on the power of novels

Brian O'Patrick
pobforum@acornns.com


That's it!  You hit a hole in one!  Thank you very much!

-Brian


On Mon Mar 27, Guest wrote
--------------------------
>On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
>------------------------------------
>> I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian,
>> through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of
>> novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much
>> more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can. My
>> fervent hope is that someone here will say, "Oh, sure, that's
>> right here." I need it for a literacy narrative in school. It
>> isn't the end of the world (nor even The Far Side of the World
>> lol) if I can't find the passage, but it would certainly be nice
>> to have since it perfectly supports a point I'm making.
>> Thank you in advance,

>From "The Nutmeg of Consolation":
>   ‘Sir,’ said Stephen, ‘I read novels with the utmost pertinacity.
>   I look upon them – I look upon good novels – as a very valuable
>   part of literature, conveying more exact and finely-
>   distinguished knowledge of the human heart and mind than almost
>   any other, with greater breadth and depth and fewer constraints.
>   Had I not read Madame de La Fayette, the Abbé Prévost, and the
>   man who wrote Clarissa, that extraordinary feat, I should be
>   very much poorer than I am; and a moment’s reflection would add
>   many more.’


Message adff84708YV-9947-900+07.htm, number 127705, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 15:00:18
in reply to 48bd7b1fttz-9947-871-07.htm

Re:LOL (NT)

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Mon Mar 27, CPMariner wrote
------------------------------
>Hi folks :-) It's been for...ever since I was last here, so I s'pose it's likely that Ian Toll's narrative history "Six Frigates" has already come up for discussion.

>But if not, my recommendation is Three Thumbs Up! (I'm an amateur economist, so I have three hands derived from endless iterations of "On the other hand..." :-) It's a wonderful book, written in a guileless, engaging narrative style, with loads of detail about the American post-Revolutionary period to flesh out its basic subject matter: the birth of the U.S. Navy.

>If you're inclined to think that American politics has gone 'round the bend these days, Toll's treatment of the politics surrounding the creation of the Navy might reassure you. Those were ham-fisted, hard-drinkin' rough 'n' tumble days from the ship builders right on up to the president(s), making today's politics look like a tea party... (oops, sorry).

>The tug o' wars (or should that be tugs o' war?) over the need for a Navy, its ship designs, its best uses, participation in such as the "Quasi-War" and the 1812 fiasco, the ongoing fracas between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists... it "covers the waterfront".

>Enthusiastically recommended!

>CPMariner (On the books as "Run", but there'll be no grog stoppage! ;-)
>
>
>
>  


Message 6cadb27dgpf-9948-721+59.htm, number 127706, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 12:00:40
in reply to 18751d4awlj-9947-872+5a.htm

Re^3: O'Brian on the power of novels

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I almost - but not quite - ordered a book by Prevost, La Fayette or Richardson from the library. They're all there. One feels one should. Has anyone here read anything by any of them?


On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
------------------------------------
>That's it!  You hit a hole in one!  Thank you very much!

>-Brian
>
>
>On Mon Mar 27, Guest wrote
>--------------------------
>>On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
>>------------------------------------
>>> I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian,
>>> through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of
>>> novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much
>>> more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can. My
>>> fervent hope is that someone here will say, "Oh, sure, that's
>>> right here." I need it for a literacy narrative in school. It
>>> isn't the end of the world (nor even The Far Side of the World
>>> lol) if I can't find the passage, but it would certainly be nice
>>> to have since it perfectly supports a point I'm making.
>>> Thank you in advance,

>>From "The Nutmeg of Consolation":
>>   ‘Sir,’ said Stephen, ‘I read novels with the utmost pertinacity.
>>   I look upon them – I look upon good novels – as a very valuable
>>   part of literature, conveying more exact and finely-
>>   distinguished knowledge of the human heart and mind than almost
>>   any other, with greater breadth and depth and fewer constraints.
>>   Had I not read Madame de La Fayette, the Abbé Prévost, and the
>>   man who wrote Clarissa, that extraordinary feat, I should be
>>   very much poorer than I am; and a moment’s reflection would add
>>   many more.’
>


Message 43068923UWK-9948-791+06.htm, number 127707, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 13:11:15
in reply to 48bd7b1fttz-9947-871-07.htm

Chronicles of the Frigate Macedonian

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


When I finished Six Frigates I read Chronicles of the Frigate Macedonian by De Key, published by some people called W.W. Norton. I enjoyed both books and the seditious times described therein.


On Mon Mar 27, CPMariner wrote
------------------------------
>Hi folks :-) It's been for...ever since I was last here, so I s'pose it's likely that Ian Toll's narrative history "Six Frigates" has already come up for discussion.

>But if not, my recommendation is Three Thumbs Up! (I'm an amateur economist, so I have three hands derived from endless iterations of "On the other hand..." :-) It's a wonderful book, written in a guileless, engaging narrative style, with loads of detail about the American post-Revolutionary period to flesh out its basic subject matter: the birth of the U.S. Navy.

>If you're inclined to think that American politics has gone 'round the bend these days, Toll's treatment of the politics surrounding the creation of the Navy might reassure you. Those were ham-fisted, hard-drinkin' rough 'n' tumble days from the ship builders right on up to the president(s), making today's politics look like a tea party... (oops, sorry).

>The tug o' wars (or should that be tugs o' war?) over the need for a Navy, its ship designs, its best uses, participation in such as the "Quasi-War" and the 1812 fiasco, the ongoing fracas between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists... it "covers the waterfront".

>Enthusiastically recommended!

>CPMariner (On the books as "Run", but there'll be no grog stoppage! ;-)
>
>
>
>  


Message 43068923UWK-9948-809-30.htm, number 127708, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 13:30:59
He that would make a pun would pick a pocket

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.


Message 50e5a913p13-9948-963+1e.htm, number 127709, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 16:02:39
in reply to 43068923UWK-9948-809-30.htm

Working link (sigh)

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.
>


Message 4c729d1400A-9948-1254+59.htm, number 127710, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 20:53:52
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-9948-721+59.htm

Re^4: O'Brian on the power of novels

Steve Sheridan


I read "Clarissa" years and years ago. It took ages to get through, which is probably why I enjoyed the BBC adaption featuring Sean Bean as Lovelace a whole lot more.

Steve


Message 47b879ac00A-9948-1282+59.htm, number 127711, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 21:22:39
in reply to 18751d4awlj-9947-782-90.htm

Re: O'Brian on the power of novels

Don Seltzer


On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
------------------------------------
>I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian, through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can.

I think that we should give equal time to Jack's view of the novel,

'I never was a great reader,' said Jack. His friends looked down at their wine and smiled. 'I mean I never could get along with your novels and tales. Admiral Burney - Captain Burney then - lent me one wrote by his sister* when we were coming back with a slow convoy from the West Indies; but I could not get through with it - sad stuff, I thought. Though I dare say the fault was in me, just as some people cannot relish music; for Burney thought the world of it, and he was as fine a seaman as any in the service. He sailed with Cook, and you cannot say fairer than that.'

'That is the best qualification for a literary critic I ever heard of,' said Yorke. 'What was the name of the book?'

'There you have me,' said Jack. 'But it was a small book, in three volumes, I think; and it was all about love. Every novel I have ever looked into is all about love; and I have looked into a good many, because Sophie loves them, and I read aloud to her while she knits, in the evening. All about love.'

'Of course they are,' said Yorke. 'What else raises your blood, your spirits, your whole being, to the highest pitch, so that life is triumphant, or tragic, as the case may be, and so that every day is worth a year of common life? When you sit trembling for a letter? When the whole of life is filled with meaning, double-shotted? To be sure, when you actually come to what some have called the right true end, you may find the position ridiculous, and the pleasure momentary; but novels, upon the whole, are concerned with getting there. And for that matter, what else makes the world go round?'

*Frances Burney


Message 47b879ac00A-9948-1296+06.htm, number 127712, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 21:35:56
in reply to 48bd7b1fttz-9947-871-07.htm

Re: "Six Frigates" by Ian W. Toll

Don Seltzer


Ian Toll was formerly a financial analyst. His interest in nautical history came about when he discovered POB in the early 1990's. Combined with his education in political science and American history, he decided to write of the beginnings of the USN within the context of the national politics and economic background of the time.



On Mon Mar 27, CPMariner wrote
------------------------------
>Hi folks :-) It's been for...ever since I was last here, so I s'pose it's likely that Ian Toll's narrative history "Six Frigates" has already come up for discussion.

>But if not, my recommendation is Three Thumbs Up! (I'm an amateur economist, so I have three hands derived from endless iterations of "On the other hand..." :-) It's a wonderful book, written in a guileless, engaging narrative style, with loads of detail about the American post-Revolutionary period to flesh out its basic subject matter: the birth of the U.S. Navy.

>If you're inclined to think that American politics has gone 'round the bend these days, Toll's treatment of the politics surrounding the creation of the Navy might reassure you. Those were ham-fisted, hard-drinkin' rough 'n' tumble days from the ship builders right on up to the president(s), making today's politics look like a tea party... (oops, sorry).

>The tug o' wars (or should that be tugs o' war?) over the need for a Navy, its ship designs, its best uses, participation in such as the "Quasi-War" and the 1812 fiasco, the ongoing fracas between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists... it "covers the waterfront".

>Enthusiastically recommended!

>CPMariner (On the books as "Run", but there'll be no grog stoppage! ;-)
>
>
>
>  


Message ae10819fUWK-9949-50+1d.htm, number 127713, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 00:50:15
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9948-963+1e.htm

Yes Killick, go to bed.

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


On Tue Mar 28, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
>------------------------------------
>>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>>cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.
>>


Message 419ec81b00A-9949-634+58.htm, number 127714, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 10:34:13
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9948-1282+59.htm

Re^2: O'Brian on the power of novels

Max


Apparently Jack was also  reader of Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield:>
Sex: the pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable.




On Tue Mar 28, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
>------------------------------------
>>I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian, through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can.

>I think that we should give equal time to Jack's view of the novel,

>'I never was a great reader,' said Jack. His friends looked down at their wine and smiled. 'I mean I never could get along with your novels and tales. Admiral Burney - Captain Burney then - lent me one wrote by his sister* when we were coming back with a slow convoy from the West Indies; but I could not get through with it - sad stuff, I thought. Though I dare say the fault was in me, just as some people cannot relish music; for Burney thought the world of it, and he was as fine a seaman as any in the service. He sailed with Cook, and you cannot say fairer than that.'

>'That is the best qualification for a literary critic I ever heard of,' said Yorke. 'What was the name of the book?'

>'There you have me,' said Jack. 'But it was a small book, in three volumes, I think; and it was all about love. Every novel I have ever looked into is all about love; and I have looked into a good many, because Sophie loves them, and I read aloud to her while she knits, in the evening. All about love.'

>'Of course they are,' said Yorke. 'What else raises your blood, your spirits, your whole being, to the highest pitch, so that life is triumphant, or tragic, as the case may be, and so that every day is worth a year of common life? When you sit trembling for a letter? When the whole of life is filled with meaning, double-shotted? To be sure, when you actually come to what some have called the right true end, you may find the position ridiculous, and the pleasure momentary; but novels, upon the whole, are concerned with getting there. And for that matter, what else makes the world go round?'

>*Frances Burney


Message 18f7024d00A-9949-715+58.htm, number 127715, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 11:55:30
in reply to 419ec81b00A-9949-634+58.htm

Re^3: O'Brian on the power of novels

Beached


I always thought that quote was from Boswell. Well, you can learn something new every day whether you want to or not.




On Wed Mar 29, Max wrote
------------------------
>Apparently Jack was also  reader of Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield:>>
>Sex: the pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable.
>
>
>
>
>On Tue Mar 28, Don Seltzer wrote
>--------------------------------
>>On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
>>------------------------------------
>>>I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian, through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can.

>>I think that we should give equal time to Jack's view of the novel,

>>'I never was a great reader,' said Jack. His friends looked down at their wine and smiled. 'I mean I never could get along with your novels and tales. Admiral Burney - Captain Burney then - lent me one wrote by his sister* when we were coming back with a slow convoy from the West Indies; but I could not get through with it - sad stuff, I thought. Though I dare say the fault was in me, just as some people cannot relish music; for Burney thought the world of it, and he was as fine a seaman as any in the service. He sailed with Cook, and you cannot say fairer than that.'

>>'That is the best qualification for a literary critic I ever heard of,' said Yorke. 'What was the name of the book?'

>>'There you have me,' said Jack. 'But it was a small book, in three volumes, I think; and it was all about love. Every novel I have ever looked into is all about love; and I have looked into a good many, because Sophie loves them, and I read aloud to her while she knits, in the evening. All about love.'

>>'Of course they are,' said Yorke. 'What else raises your blood, your spirits, your whole being, to the highest pitch, so that life is triumphant, or tragic, as the case may be, and so that every day is worth a year of common life? When you sit trembling for a letter? When the whole of life is filled with meaning, double-shotted? To be sure, when you actually come to what some have called the right true end, you may find the position ridiculous, and the pleasure momentary; but novels, upon the whole, are concerned with getting there. And for that matter, what else makes the world go round?'

>>*Frances Burney


Message cf6d647e00A-9949-777+58.htm, number 127716, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 12:57:15
in reply to 18f7024d00A-9949-715+58.htm

Re^4: O'Brian on the power of novels

Max


I make no claim as to the TRUE origin of the quote.
On a Forum with The OED being referred to daily I wouldn't dare.





Wed Mar 29, Beached wrote
----------------------------
>I always thought that quote was from Boswell. Well, you can learn something new every day whether you want to or not.
>
>
>
>
>On Wed Mar 29, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Apparently Jack was also  reader of Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield:>>>
>>Sex: the pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Tue Mar 28, Don Seltzer wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>On Mon Mar 27, Brian O'Patrick wrote
>>>------------------------------------
>>>>I'm looking for a passage from one of the books where O'Brian, through Stephen Maturin, reflects on the wonderful ability of novels to plumb the depths of what it means to be human, much more effectively than any textbook or factual treatise can.

>>>I think that we should give equal time to Jack's view of the novel,

>>>'I never was a great reader,' said Jack. His friends looked down at their wine and smiled. 'I mean I never could get along with your novels and tales. Admiral Burney - Captain Burney then - lent me one wrote by his sister* when we were coming back with a slow convoy from the West Indies; but I could not get through with it - sad stuff, I thought. Though I dare say the fault was in me, just as some people cannot relish music; for Burney thought the world of it, and he was as fine a seaman as any in the service. He sailed with Cook, and you cannot say fairer than that.'

>>>'That is the best qualification for a literary critic I ever heard of,' said Yorke. 'What was the name of the book?'

>>>'There you have me,' said Jack. 'But it was a small book, in three volumes, I think; and it was all about love. Every novel I have ever looked into is all about love; and I have looked into a good many, because Sophie loves them, and I read aloud to her while she knits, in the evening. All about love.'

>>>'Of course they are,' said Yorke. 'What else raises your blood, your spirits, your whole being, to the highest pitch, so that life is triumphant, or tragic, as the case may be, and so that every day is worth a year of common life? When you sit trembling for a letter? When the whole of life is filled with meaning, double-shotted? To be sure, when you actually come to what some have called the right true end, you may find the position ridiculous, and the pleasure momentary; but novels, upon the whole, are concerned with getting there. And for that matter, what else makes the world go round?'

>>>*Frances Burney


Message 50e5a913p13-9949-1195+58.htm, number 127717, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 19:55:26
in reply to cf6d647e00A-9949-777+58.htm

Re^5: O'Brian on the power of novels

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 29, Max wrote
------------------------
>I make no claim as to the TRUE origin of the quote.
>On a Forum with The OED being referred to daily I wouldn't dare.

The OED is unhelpful but wikipedia offers:

‘ . . Of children as of procreation— the pleasure momentary, the posture ridiculous, the expense damnable . . ’
Letter to Nancy Mitford, May 5, 1954, cited from Mark Amory (ed.) The Letters of Evelyn Waugh (Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1982) p. 423

"The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable" is sometimes attributed to Lord Chesterfield (British statesman, diplomat and wit, 1694-1773), but has not been found in his works.

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Evelyn_Waugh

See also: www.quote-unquote.org.uk/p0000046.htm


Message 50e5a913p13-9950-409+57.htm, number 127718, was posted on Thu Mar 30 at 06:49:12
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9949-1195+58.htm

Lord C and Mr Boswell

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Mar 29, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Wed Mar 29, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>I make no claim as to the TRUE origin of the quote.
>>On a Forum with The OED being referred to daily I wouldn't dare.

The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations includes this quote but only says 'attributed to Lord C'. So no-one has ever found it in his writings or pinned down its first appearance in print. Boswell, 20 years Lord C's junior, may have recorded it as a witty remark of Lord C's that everyone knew and enjoyed.


Message 321763758YV-9950-692+57.htm, number 127719, was posted on Thu Mar 30 at 11:32:34
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9949-1195+58.htm

Re^6: Seems to me...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


That anyone who truly believes that to be true....is doing it wrong.

On Wed Mar 29, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Wed Mar 29, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>I make no claim as to the TRUE origin of the quote.
>>On a Forum with The OED being referred to daily I wouldn't dare.

>The OED is unhelpful but wikipedia offers:

>‘ . . Of children as of procreation— the pleasure momentary, the posture ridiculous, the expense damnable . . ’
>Letter to Nancy Mitford, May 5, 1954, cited from Mark Amory (ed.) The Letters of Evelyn Waugh (Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1982) p. 423

>"The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable" is sometimes attributed to Lord Chesterfield (British statesman, diplomat and wit, 1694-1773), but has not been found in his works.

>en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Evelyn_Waugh

>See also: www.quote-unquote.org.uk/p0000046.htm


Message 5565447400A-9950-778+57.htm, number 127720, was posted on Thu Mar 30 at 12:58:08
in reply to 47b879ac00A-9948-1282+59.htm

Re^2: O'Brian on the power of novels

Jobbing Captain


On Tue Mar 28, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------


>'Of course they are,' said Yorke. 'What else raises your blood, your spirits, your whole being, to the highest pitch, so that life is triumphant, or tragic, as the case may be, and so that every day is worth a year of common life? When you sit trembling for a letter? When the whole of life is filled with meaning, double-shotted? To be sure, when you actually come to what some have called the right true end, you may find the position ridiculous, and the pleasure momentary; but novels, upon the whole, are concerned with getting there. And for that matter, what else makes the world go round?'

I have always thought the passage that follows, from Stephen's mouth, is POB's truest revelation of how he thought about writing the Canon:

"Sure you are in the right of it.  Intermissa, Venus diu, rursus bella moves.  And yet perhaps war, full war, martial war, may wind even more emotions to the breaking point -- the social emotions of comradeship, extreme joint endeavor, even patriotism and sefless devotion may be involved; and glory rather than a humid bed may be the aim.  The stakes are perhaps higher still, since physical annihilation accompanies defeat. But how is this to be encompassed in a book?"


Message 6b4d5312wd5-9951-515-90.htm, number 127721, was posted on Fri Mar 31 at 08:34:39
Sloth as a pet???

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Would you...really?

www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2017/03/31/is_it_legal_to_own_a_sloth_in_the_u_s.html


Message 321763758YV-9951-793-90.htm, number 127722, was posted on Fri Mar 31 at 13:13:51
Purple Prose

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com



Let's acknowledge this at the top: It's a thin slice.

To gaze across the great swath of written English over the past few centuries — that teeming, jostling, elbow-throwing riot of characters and places and stories and ideas — only to isolate, with dispassionate precision, some stray, infinitesimal data point such as which author uses cliches like "missing the forest for the trees" the most, would be like ...

Well. You get it. More like missing the forest for the raspberry seed stuck to the underside of the 395th leaf on the 139th branch of the 223,825th tree.

But that's what statistician Ben Blatt's new book, Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve, sets out to do, thin slice by thin slice.

He loaded thousands of books — classics and contemporary best-sellers — into various databases and let his hard drive churn through them, seeking to determine, for example, if our favorite authors follow conventional writing advice about using cliches, adverbs and exclamation points (they mostly do); if men and women write differently (yep); if an algorithm can identify a writer from his or her prose style (it can); and which authors use the shortest first sentences (Toni Morrison, Margaret Atwood, Mark Twain) versus those who use the longest (Salman Rushdie, Michael Chabon, Edith Wharton).

I can hear thousands of monocles dropping into thousands of cups of Earl Grey from here. "But what of literature?" you sputter. "What does any of that technical folderol have to do," — here you start wiping your monocle on your nosegay — "with ART?"

Not much, is the answer. Blatt's book isn't terribly interested in the art of writing. What it's fascinated by — and is fascinating about — is the craft of writing.

Technique. Word choice. Sentence structure. Reading level. There's something cheeky in the way Blatt throws genre best-sellers into his statistical blender alongside literary lions and hits puree, looking for patterns of style shared by, say, James Joyce and James Patterson.


A Balm For Bookish Know-it-Alls

To say that you likely won't find much that's truly surprising in Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve isn't a critique. In fact, it's kind of the point. Reading it, you experience the feeling, again and again, of having some vague, squishy notion you've always sort of held about a given author getting ruthlessly distilled into a stark, cold, numerical fact.

Which is, if you're the kind of person who likes to get proven right (hi!), a hell of a lot of fun.

Now: It's a book of statistics, and statistics rest on distinct sets of assumptions that must get made before any number can start getting well and truly crunched. So if you're curious about Blatt's methodology, boy are you in luck. Every chapter begins with Blatt chattily sharing with the reader — as chattily as a book this eager to walk us through the formula used to calculate Flesch-Kincaide Grade Levels can be — every aspect of his thinking. How he defines "Great Books." What constitutes a long sentence. Which chapter-endings qualify as cliffhangers, and which merely ... abrupt.

He drags you into the weeds with him, but he's a personable writer, and he's brought along a picnic lunch, so you don't mind the bugs.

Herewith, some of my favorite of Blatt's findings in Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve:
MEN WRITE LIKE THIS, BUT WOMEN WRITE LIKE THIS


Maidens, Interrupted: A chart of word use in classic literature, from Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve.
Simon & Schuster

It tuns out that — sit down for this next bit — authors who are women write equally about men and women, but men write overwhelmingly about men.

I know. I'm shaken, over here.

For every appearance of the word "she" in classics by male authors, Blatt found three uses of the word "he." In classics by women, the ratio was pretty much one-to-one.

Also: Male authors of classic literature are three times as likely to write that a female character "interrupted" than male characters. In contemporary popular and literary fiction, the ratio is smaller, but it's still there.
FAVORITE WORDS

Blatt looked for the specific words that authors use much more frequently than the rate at which those words generally occur in the rest of written English (i.e., compared to a huge sample of literary works — some 385 million words in total — written in English between 1810 and 2009, assembled by linguists at Brigham Young Univeristy).

His criteria: A favorite word -

   Must occur in at least half of the author's books
   Must be used at a rate of at least once per 100,000 words
   Must not be so obscure that it's used less than once per million in the BYU sample of written English
   Is not a proper noun

Here's some that jumped out at me.

Jane Austen: civility, fancying, imprudence (Story checks out, right?)

Dan Brown: grail, masonic, pyramid (I am sagely nodding, over here.)

Truman Capote: clutter, zoo, geranium

John Cheever: infirmary, venereal, erotic (Boy howdy, that's a whole Cheever short story, right there.)

Agatha Christie: inquest, alibi, frightful

F. Scott Fitzgerald: facetious, muddled, sanitarium

Ian Fleming: lavatory, trouser, spangled ("Pardon me, Blofeld; must dash to the lavatory, got something spangled on me trouser.")

Ernest Hemingway: concierge, astern, cognac (Yuuup.)

Toni Morrison: messed, navel, slop
'Lolita' And Lollipops: What Nabokov Had To Say About Nosh
The Salt
'Lolita' And Lollipops: What Nabokov Had To Say About Nosh

Vladimir Nabokov: mauve, banal, pun (As Blatt points out, Nabokov had synesthesia, a condition that caused him to associate various colors with the sound and shape of letters and words. "Mauve" was his favorite: He used the word at a rate that's 44 times higher than the rate at which it occurs in the BYU sample of written English.)

Jodi Picoult: courtroom, diaper, diner

Ayn Rand: transcontinental, comrade, proletarian

J.K. Rowling: wand, wizard, potion (Well, duh.)

Amy Tan: gourd, peanut, noodles

Mark Twain: hearted, shucks, satan

Edith Wharton: nearness, daresay, compunction (Man I love me some Edith Friggin' Wharton.)

Virginia Woolf: flushing, blotting, mantelpiece (Chandler Bing: "Could they BE more Virginia Woolf?")
ADVERBS

You know: nearly, suddenly, sloppily, etc. Writing teachers tell you to avoid them, that they sap the energy from a sentence. Strong, clear writing is fueled by verbs and nouns, they say, not by adjectives and adverbs.

Turns out, the adverb thing holds up: When Blatt combined several lists of the "Great Books" of the 20th century, he came up with 37 which were generally considered great.

Of these, 2 out of 3 — 67 percent — contained a significantly lower number of adverbs (less than 50 per 10,000 words) than occurs, on average, in written English.
EXCLAMATION POINTS

Well I mean: I hate 'em, at least. My husband uses them like they're powdered sugar and his emails are lemon bars. But I hate 'em.

You know who doesn't hate 'em? Besides my husband, I mean? James Joyce. Dude loved them.

Blatt took a sample of 50 authors of classics and contemporary best-sellers, totaling 580 books. The authors who used the most exclamation points per 100,000 words were:

5. J.R.R. Tolkien (767)
4. E.B. White (782. Gasp; nobody tell Mr. Strunk.)
3. Sinclair Lewis (844. I guess it CAN happen here.)
2. Tom Wolfe (929)
1. James Joyce (1,105)

Elmore Leonard — bless him — used the fewest: Just 49 per 100,000 words.

IT'S RAINING CATS AND DOGS AND CLICHES

When it comes to use of cliches, there's another gender split.

In Blatt's list of 50 classic and best-selling authors (scroll down to the bottom of this post to see them all), those who use cliches most frequently? All men.

5. Chuck Palahniuk (129 per 100,000 words)

4. Salman Rushdie (131)

3. Kurt Vonnegut (140. All those "And so it goes"es in Slaughterhouse-Five really hurt him here, I bet.)

2. Tom Wolfe (143)

1. James Patterson (160)

(In fairness to Patterson, Blatt includes cliches found in dialogue, and Patterson's characters aren't exactly going around coining new phrases with a Joycean fervor.)

The authors who used the fewest cliches? All women.

5. Veronica Roth (69)

4. Willa Cather (67)

3. Virginia Woolf (62)

2. Edith Wharton (62)

1. Jane Austen (A paltry 45 per 100,000 words, about 1/3 of the rate at which James "More Cliches Than You Can Shake A Stick At" Patterson busts them out.)

Now, again: It's a thin slice, looking at literature in this knowingly reductive way. It doesn't tell you everything, and of course it doesn't give you a true sense of the feeling you get when you read these authors for yourself.

But what it often succeeds in capturing, with astonishing clarity, is your feeling about these authors.

Case in point: The author who is most likely to mention the weather in the opening sentence?

Danielle Steele.

She does it in — precisely — 46 percent of her books.




A ranking of authors by cliche-use, from Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve.
Ben Blatt,Simon & Schuster

   


Message 321763758YV-9952-844+1a.htm, number 127723, was posted on Sat Apr 1 at 14:03:40
in reply to 43068923UWK-9948-809-30.htm

Re: He that would make a pun would pick a pocket

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.
>


Message 50e5a913p13-9953-369-07.htm, number 127724, was posted on Sun Apr 2 at 06:09:03
'In psychology how is the 'muddy children problem' solved?' . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. .  find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199657681%2E013%2E5270

it is also called the cheating husbands problem.


Message 46d3123e00A-9953-635+19.htm, number 127725, was posted on Sun Apr 2 at 10:34:42
in reply to 321763758YV-9952-844+1a.htm

Re^2: He that would make a pun would pick a pocket

Max



Clearly, no pocket is safe.

Message 46d3078d00A-9954-1193-30.htm, number 127726, was posted on Mon Apr 3 at 19:53:32
Where are Stephen and Jack? This is right up their alley

Max


On Wednesday, Britain formally began the process of withdrawing from the European Union, and already some leaders seem eager to get back to the glory days of naval warfare with Spain.

Joshua Keating
JOSHUA KEATING
Joshua Keating is a staff writer at Slate focusing on international affairs.

It all started on Friday when the EU published its negotiating guidelines for the upcoming talks to determine Britain’s future relationship with Europe. Unexpectedly, the guidelines included a section saying that any deal between Britain and the EU would not apply to the territory of Gibraltar unless Spain agrees. Gibraltar is a semi-autonomous British territory on the southern tip of Spain. While it has been under British control since 1713 and Gibraltarians have voted to keep it that way in several referendums, Spain has periodically made some rumblings about regaining control of the territory, which is located in a strategically valuable spot at the entrance to the Mediterranean. The EU guidelines indicated that Brussels intends to side with Spain.

Currently hopped up on a heady dose of post-Brexit jingoism, British politicians weren’t going to take this lying down. Referring to Margaret Thatcher’s leadership during the Falklands War with Argentina, former Conservative Party leader Michael Howard said in a Sunday interview that 35 years ago "another woman prime minister sent a taskforce halfway across the world to protect another small group of British people against another Spanish-speaking country. And I'm absolutely clear that our current woman prime minister will show the same resolve in relation to Gibraltar as her predecessor did."

A columnist from the Sun deployed a famous Winston Churchill line, writing, "We are only just into these Brexit negotiations and to be honest I have already gone from jaw-jaw to war-war. Our friends in Europe are quickly turning out to be our foes. It’s only in recent history where Germany and Italy have been on our side."

The Telegraph ran an interview with a former admiral warning that Britain’s Navy is much weaker today than it was during the Falklands War and that the government should boost defense spending if it wants to “talk big” over Gibraltar.

Prime Minister Theresa May is doing her best to calm everybody down, saying that while Britain won’t trade away Gibraltar’s sovereignty against its wishes, her approach is “definitely jaw-jaw.” When asked if she would rule out war, May laughed.

As for what Gibralter thinks, Fabian Picardo, chief minister of the territory, accused the EU of acting like a "cuckolded husband who is taking it out on the children."

This is only the first week.


Message 48bd7b1fttz-9954-1203+57.htm, number 127727, was posted on Mon Apr 3 at 20:04:58
in reply to 321763758YV-9951-793-90.htm

"It Was a Dark and Stormy Night..."

CPMariner
fbcroson@hotmail.com


Ach. When's the next Friends of the Library book sale, darling? I've got a 29-center here, back hardly broken at all.

What an interesting post (exclamation mark)

Does Blatt delve into special stylistic conceits? I suppose that would be nearly impossible, but I can't resist tossing in my two greatest pet peeves from a 76 year lifetime, about 70 of which were more or less marked by sentience and another 4 or 5 blotted out by the moronic teen years. Yes Virginia, all teenagers are morons. (j/k, partly)

Peeve #1: Dream sequences. I don't think I've ever read one that added anything to the story, and most of them are so obvious in intent as to put Freud to sleep.

Peeve #2: Italics. Either the word has sufficient impact and import on its own, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, either find another word or reframe the sentence (exclamation mark) Or rewrite the scene, or the chapter, or the book (double exclamation marks)

The worst, the most awful, the most aggressively irritating is to start the book with a multiple page italicized scene-setter:

The owl snapped its head around toward a shuffling of leaves below its gnarled perch. The man was dragging the woman's limp body toward a depression in the overturned earth. The owl couldn't know this, of course, but the man was a mechanical engineer with an MBS degree from Georgia Tech, where he'd met the woman at a fraternity orgy, neither suspecting that one day..."

Arrrggghhh (triple exclamation marks)

CP (with smiley)



     







On Fri Mar 31, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>>Let's acknowledge this at the top: It's a thin slice.

>To gaze across the great swath of written English over the past few centuries — that teeming, jostling, elbow-throwing riot of characters and places and stories and ideas — only to isolate, with dispassionate precision, some stray, infinitesimal data point such as which author uses cliches like "missing the forest for the trees" the most, would be like ...

>Well. You get it. More like missing the forest for the raspberry seed stuck to the underside of the 395th leaf on the 139th branch of the 223,825th tree.

>But that's what statistician Ben Blatt's new book, Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve, sets out to do, thin slice by thin slice.

>He loaded thousands of books — classics and contemporary best-sellers — into various databases and let his hard drive churn through them, seeking to determine, for example, if our favorite authors follow conventional writing advice about using cliches, adverbs and exclamation points (they mostly do); if men and women write differently (yep); if an algorithm can identify a writer from his or her prose style (it can); and which authors use the shortest first sentences (Toni Morrison, Margaret Atwood, Mark Twain) versus those who use the longest (Salman Rushdie, Michael Chabon, Edith Wharton).

>I can hear thousands of monocles dropping into thousands of cups of Earl Grey from here. "But what of literature?" you sputter. "What does any of that technical folderol have to do," — here you start wiping your monocle on your nosegay — "with ART?"

>Not much, is the answer. Blatt's book isn't terribly interested in the art of writing. What it's fascinated by — and is fascinating about — is the craft of writing.

>Technique. Word choice. Sentence structure. Reading level. There's something cheeky in the way Blatt throws genre best-sellers into his statistical blender alongside literary lions and hits puree, looking for patterns of style shared by, say, James Joyce and James Patterson.
>
>
>A Balm For Bookish Know-it-Alls

>To say that you likely won't find much that's truly surprising in Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve isn't a critique. In fact, it's kind of the point. Reading it, you experience the feeling, again and again, of having some vague, squishy notion you've always sort of held about a given author getting ruthlessly distilled into a stark, cold, numerical fact.

>Which is, if you're the kind of person who likes to get proven right (hi!), a hell of a lot of fun.

>Now: It's a book of statistics, and statistics rest on distinct sets of assumptions that must get made before any number can start getting well and truly crunched. So if you're curious about Blatt's methodology, boy are you in luck. Every chapter begins with Blatt chattily sharing with the reader — as chattily as a book this eager to walk us through the formula used to calculate Flesch-Kincaide Grade Levels can be — every aspect of his thinking. How he defines "Great Books." What constitutes a long sentence. Which chapter-endings qualify as cliffhangers, and which merely ... abrupt.

>He drags you into the weeds with him, but he's a personable writer, and he's brought along a picnic lunch, so you don't mind the bugs.

>Herewith, some of my favorite of Blatt's findings in Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve:
>MEN WRITE LIKE THIS, BUT WOMEN WRITE LIKE THIS

>
>Maidens, Interrupted: A chart of word use in classic literature, from Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve.
>Simon & Schuster

>It tuns out that — sit down for this next bit — authors who are women write equally about men and women, but men write overwhelmingly about men.

>I know. I'm shaken, over here.

>For every appearance of the word "she" in classics by male authors, Blatt found three uses of the word "he." In classics by women, the ratio was pretty much one-to-one.

>Also: Male authors of classic literature are three times as likely to write that a female character "interrupted" than male characters. In contemporary popular and literary fiction, the ratio is smaller, but it's still there.
>FAVORITE WORDS

>Blatt looked for the specific words that authors use much more frequently than the rate at which those words generally occur in the rest of written English (i.e., compared to a huge sample of literary works — some 385 million words in total — written in English between 1810 and 2009, assembled by linguists at Brigham Young Univeristy).

>His criteria: A favorite word -

>    Must occur in at least half of the author's books
>    Must be used at a rate of at least once per 100,000 words
>    Must not be so obscure that it's used less than once per million in the BYU sample of written English
>    Is not a proper noun

>Here's some that jumped out at me.

>Jane Austen: civility, fancying, imprudence (Story checks out, right?)

>Dan Brown: grail, masonic, pyramid (I am sagely nodding, over here.)

>Truman Capote: clutter, zoo, geranium

>John Cheever: infirmary, venereal, erotic (Boy howdy, that's a whole Cheever short story, right there.)

>Agatha Christie: inquest, alibi, frightful

>F. Scott Fitzgerald: facetious, muddled, sanitarium

>Ian Fleming: lavatory, trouser, spangled ("Pardon me, Blofeld; must dash to the lavatory, got something spangled on me trouser.")

>Ernest Hemingway: concierge, astern, cognac (Yuuup.)

>Toni Morrison: messed, navel, slop
>'Lolita' And Lollipops: What Nabokov Had To Say About Nosh
>The Salt
>'Lolita' And Lollipops: What Nabokov Had To Say About Nosh

>Vladimir Nabokov: mauve, banal, pun (As Blatt points out, Nabokov had synesthesia, a condition that caused him to associate various colors with the sound and shape of letters and words. "Mauve" was his favorite: He used the word at a rate that's 44 times higher than the rate at which it occurs in the BYU sample of written English.)

>Jodi Picoult: courtroom, diaper, diner

>Ayn Rand: transcontinental, comrade, proletarian

>J.K. Rowling: wand, wizard, potion (Well, duh.)

>Amy Tan: gourd, peanut, noodles

>Mark Twain: hearted, shucks, satan

>Edith Wharton: nearness, daresay, compunction (Man I love me some Edith Friggin' Wharton.)

>Virginia Woolf: flushing, blotting, mantelpiece (Chandler Bing: "Could they BE more Virginia Woolf?")
>ADVERBS

>You know: nearly, suddenly, sloppily, etc. Writing teachers tell you to avoid them, that they sap the energy from a sentence. Strong, clear writing is fueled by verbs and nouns, they say, not by adjectives and adverbs.

>Turns out, the adverb thing holds up: When Blatt combined several lists of the "Great Books" of the 20th century, he came up with 37 which were generally considered great.

>Of these, 2 out of 3 — 67 percent — contained a significantly lower number of adverbs (less than 50 per 10,000 words) than occurs, on average, in written English.
>EXCLAMATION POINTS

>Well I mean: I hate 'em, at least. My husband uses them like they're powdered sugar and his emails are lemon bars. But I hate 'em.

>You know who doesn't hate 'em? Besides my husband, I mean? James Joyce. Dude loved them.

>Blatt took a sample of 50 authors of classics and contemporary best-sellers, totaling 580 books. The authors who used the most exclamation points per 100,000 words were:

>5. J.R.R. Tolkien (767)
>4. E.B. White (782. Gasp; nobody tell Mr. Strunk.)
>3. Sinclair Lewis (844. I guess it CAN happen here.)
>2. Tom Wolfe (929)
>1. James Joyce (1,105)

>Elmore Leonard — bless him — used the fewest: Just 49 per 100,000 words.

>IT'S RAINING CATS AND DOGS AND CLICHES

>When it comes to use of cliches, there's another gender split.

>In Blatt's list of 50 classic and best-selling authors (scroll down to the bottom of this post to see them all), those who use cliches most frequently? All men.

>5. Chuck Palahniuk (129 per 100,000 words)

>4. Salman Rushdie (131)

>3. Kurt Vonnegut (140. All those "And so it goes"es in Slaughterhouse-Five really hurt him here, I bet.)

>2. Tom Wolfe (143)

>1. James Patterson (160)

>(In fairness to Patterson, Blatt includes cliches found in dialogue, and Patterson's characters aren't exactly going around coining new phrases with a Joycean fervor.)

>The authors who used the fewest cliches? All women.

>5. Veronica Roth (69)

>4. Willa Cather (67)

>3. Virginia Woolf (62)

>2. Edith Wharton (62)

>1. Jane Austen (A paltry 45 per 100,000 words, about 1/3 of the rate at which James "More Cliches Than You Can Shake A Stick At" Patterson busts them out.)

>Now, again: It's a thin slice, looking at literature in this knowingly reductive way. It doesn't tell you everything, and of course it doesn't give you a true sense of the feeling you get when you read these authors for yourself.

>But what it often succeeds in capturing, with astonishing clarity, is your feeling about these authors.

>Case in point: The author who is most likely to mention the weather in the opening sentence?

>Danielle Steele.

>She does it in — precisely — 46 percent of her books.

>
>
>
>A ranking of authors by cliche-use, from Nabokov's Favorite Word is Mauve.
>Ben Blatt,Simon & Schuster

>    

>


Message 50e5a913p13-9955-618+1d.htm, number 127728, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 10:17:51
in reply to 46d3078d00A-9954-1193-30.htm

A war of words and very large oil paintings

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The absurd history of British-Spanish rivalry, from Henry VIII to Gibraltar
[www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/03/absurd-history-british-spanish-rivalry-henry-viii-gibraltar]

The war of words over the rocky outcrop is only the latest spat in 500 years of squabbling between the two countries
 photo Gib.png

Blood, fire and mayhem: the art of Britain’s conflicts with Spain - Sabre-rattling Brexiters should look at the paintings that depict the barbaric wars between the two European nations - John Singleton Copley’s The Defeat of the Floating Batteries at Gibraltar has taken on new significance in recent days.

One unlikely beneficiary of the rapid descent from triggering article 50 to sabre-rattling over Gibraltar is the City of London’s Guildhall art gallery, whose largest and strangest painting suddenly looks relevant again after more than 200 years. John Singleton Copley’s The Defeat of the Floating Batteries at Gibraltar is so vast, at nearly eight metres wide, that a special space had to be designed to accommodate it, yet as recently as five days ago it was as obscure as it was colossal. After all, it shows a forgotten moment in a forgotten war against a nation we have not fought for centuries.

In this giant “history painting”, which took nearly 10 years to create, Copley shows the foiling of a foul Spanish plot. With Britain distracted by the American revolutionary war, Spain made an opportunistic attempt to reconquer Gibraltar in 1782 using the ingenious novelty of floating gun batteries to bombard the Rock. The painting shows the floating platforms sinking in flames after the British battered them with superheated cannon shot. It is a horrific scene, with Spanish soldiers jumping in the sea and the magnanimous British commander, George August Eliott, ordering their rescue.
[www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2017/apr/03/blood-fire-mayhem-art-britain-spain-conflicts]

War threats over Gibraltar are rightwing imperial fantasies - Paul Mason: Sending ships to southern Spain only makes sense if you buy the delusion that Britain’s future involves rekindling empire, both economically and diplomatically
[www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/03/war-threats-over-gibraltar-are-rightwing-imperial-fantasies]

and finally, a current cartoon:
 photo Gib 2.png
[order-order.com/]
..........
Gibraltar was ceded to Britain by the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713:

'The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.'


Message 46d3078d00A-9955-625+1d.htm, number 127729, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 10:24:46
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9955-618+1d.htm

Re: A war of words and very large oil paintings

Max


Why does British commander, George August Eliott look so much like Donald Trump?

Message 50e5a913p13-9955-725+1d.htm, number 127730, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 12:05:36
in reply to 46d3078d00A-9955-625+1d.htm

Re^2: A war of words . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Apr 4, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Why does British commander, George August Eliott look so much like Donald Trump?

The resemblance is not great as these 2 portraits show:


It may be that Copley had only a vague idea of what Eliott looked like so he painted as a generic overweight upper class Brit.


Message 31bb0bc900A-9955-1065+1d.htm, number 127731, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 17:45:57
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9955-618+1d.htm

Re: A war of words and very large oil paintings

wombat


Anybody in 2017 is going to have had (does quick calculation) a gazillion forbears who were alive at the time of the Great Siege of Gibraltar and many might have been actors on either side.

Not so many humble artillerymen had their experiences put into a popular novel/biography of their as-yet-to-be-thought-of-daughter. But that's another (unreadable) story which has been handed down in my family. I've shyly decided to put forum members into the picture by quoting, from the Google books copy, some of my gggggrandfather's very words on the evening of the 12th September, 1782, as he explains the situation to General Eliot [sic] and has it explained back to him:


ggggfather: ".... The battering ships seem to be drawing closer to us, and by this time they must be pretty well prepared to tell us what they mean. Two rockets went up about ten minutes since, and were answered by two of the same kind from the land. Boats have been plying from ship to ship, and I think we shall have a hailstorm, your honour, on the morrow"


Gen. Eliot: "You are not far out in your calculation, I think. The Duke de Crillon has been more alive than I have seen him for weeks past, and Monsieur D'Arcon has been as busy as if he were going to set the world on fire! - Warm work to-morrow for them as well as ourselves....Never fear, my brave fellow! We have fully determined to try the power of red-hot shot upon their hulks; and, if we do not fire some of them, I shall be greatly disappointed. I hope this attack will end the siege."





Message 50e5a913p13-9955-1194+1d.htm, number 127732, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 19:56:00
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9955-1065+1d.htm

1 gazillion = 64, it seems . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


It is easy to estimate how many ancestors one had any number of years ago by applyng the rule of thumb that 1 generation = x 2 people the age one is now per 30 years.

1783 is 234 years ago = 8 generations so I had 2 to the 8th ancestors my age (70ish)  = 256 or half that (128) of (just about) military age, of which half (64) would have been male.

So 1 gazillion = 64, it seems.  The actual number of ancestors would be smaller because of the common practice of marrying one’s first or second cousins.

None of them,I am confidents, fought on the Spanish side - my mother’s family were Huguenots, refugees from Catholic persecution and my father’s rural Yorkshire all the way back. If any fought for the British, they are unknown to us today but we do have this pleasing fiction instead:

' . . She was reputed to be the daughter of old Captain Squire RN whose ship was said to have been paid off at the end of ‘the Napoleonic wars at Whitby, whereupon Captain Squire had picked up an oar, put it across his shoulder and set off to walk across the North Yorkshire Moors and it was not until he was just south of Northallerton on the Ripon Road that a man said to him these blessed words "Eh Governor what is that thing that you are carrying on your  shoulder?’ and then Captain Squire knew he was far enough from the sea to settle down and spend his last days.  

So he acquired land nearby, built a house, married, had a daughter and in the end died quite happily far from the sea — well sixty miles anyway. Miss Squire the daughter left Southfield to father’s father, provided only that he took the name Squire and he is reputed to have said that "he would take any name so long as it had some land attached to it”.

In fact she was the last of a line of money-grubbing lawyers/men of business who had lived in Ainderby Steeple  ‘since the parish registers were first kept . . ‘ but the sea captain is much more romantic.
............
Thank you for the excerpt from yr ancestor’s book, which has the authentic tones of the 18th century - please supply a reference or even better a working link - you'll need to use tinyurl.com to shorten the URL for Ceilidh.


Message 31bb0bc900A-9955-1275+1d.htm, number 127733, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 21:15:46
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9955-1194+1d.htm

Re: 1 gazillion = 64, it seems . .

Guest


On Tue Apr 4, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------

>So 1 gazillion = 64, it seems.  


Thanks for the "64", Christo - it's a reasonable sort of number.  I worked out the number of generations to me when my grandmother first showed me the book. I have never had much confidence in my maths.


> and then Captain Squire knew he was far enough from the sea to settle down and spend his last days.


Yes, an unlikely story given that the greatest seaman of them all was a Yorkshireman.


>Thank you for the excerpt from yr ancestor’s book, which has the authentic tones of the 18th century - please supply a reference or even better a working link - you'll need to use tinyurl.com to shorten the URL for Ceilidh.


The novel/biography I quoted from is Mary Anne Wellington: The Soldier's Daughter, Wife and Widow. It makes dire reading (I can't bring myself to read it again) and is to be found at the various sites that digitise old texts . Here is the Google Books URL:

https://tinyurl.com/n294xx9




Message 50e5a913p13-9956-297+1c.htm, number 127734, was posted on Wed Apr 5 at 04:57:01
in reply to 31bb0bc900A-9955-1275+1d.htm

Working link

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Apr 4, Guest wrote
-------------------------
>tinyurl.com/n294xx9

Message 4747f4808HW-9957-760+15.htm, number 127735, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 12:41:15
in reply to 43068923UWK-9948-809-30.htm

From my archives (since it's started)

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Jason Redd raised his children to love working the land, but due to various twists of fate most of them are in city office jobs now.  They've often talked about moving back to the country but have never gone beyond dreams and discussion.

Then one day Mark, one of his three boys, sees an ad for a cattle ranch that for some reason catches his eye.  He drives out to look at it, falls in love and comes back to talk to his brothers.  They look at it, talk over possible plans for a few weeks, and finally take the plunge.

On the porch of their shared mess hall they install some hanging prisms for decoration and wind chimes.  Their father spends a lot of time visiting and helping with some of the planning, and one day stops by those prisms, stares at them for a while, and then arranges them so the setting sun striking through them places all its lowest-frequency light on the wall at one spot, giving off an intense and beautiful glow.  "Boys", he then says, "I know what to name this ranch: The Burning Prism."

"That's got a poetic ring, Dad, but why?", asks Lonny.

"Because", says Jason, "it's where the Redd sons raise meat!"

Ah, thank you, thank you very much.  You're too kind...

On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.


Message 4747f4808HW-9957-785+1b.htm, number 127736, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 13:05:09
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9955-618+1d.htm

Re: A war of words....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Wait, what?  Why "rightwing"?  I mean, I get that right wingers are traditionally thought to want more than left wingers (and not without reason), but by the same token left wingers are traditionally thought to fear war more than right wingers.  Why are war threats over Gibraltar not leftwing panic-delusions?

Are there British politicians saying they want to declare war against Spain at this early (and likely the only) stage, really?  I'm doubtful.  I'm not over there and maybe didn't hear.  But then, politically I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, myself, so I'm probably less likely to read into right-winger rhetoric an "imperial fantasy" that isn't really there.

On Tue Apr 4, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>War threats over Gibraltar are rightwing imperial fantasies...


Message 321763758YV-9957-809+15.htm, number 127737, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 13:28:46
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9957-760+15.htm

Re:Ouch, ouch, ouch!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


So bad...

I likely have missed something, but our sun is a yellow dwarf (not that there's anything wrong with that).  Does this joke take place in an alternate galaxy?

Is the punch line just half a pun?  Would make it a  'pun-- line'?

Inquiring minds want to know....



On Thu Apr 6, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>

Jason Redd raised his children to love working the land, but due to various twists of fate most of them are in city office jobs now.  They've often talked about moving back to the country but have never gone beyond dreams and discussion.

>Then one day Mark, one of his three boys, sees an ad for a cattle ranch that for some reason catches his eye.  He drives out to look at it, falls in love and comes back to talk to his brothers.  They look at it, talk over possible plans for a few weeks, and finally take the plunge.

>On the porch of their shared mess hall they install some hanging prisms for decoration and wind chimes.  Their father spends a lot of time visiting and helping with some of the planning, and one day stops by those prisms, stares at them for a while, and then arranges them so the setting sun striking through them places all its lowest-frequency light on the wall at one spot, giving off an intense and beautiful glow.  "Boys", he then says, "I know what to name this ranch: The Burning Prism."

>"That's got a poetic ring, Dad, but why?", asks Lonny.

>"Because", says Jason, "it's where the Redd sons raise meat!"

>

>

>

>Ah, thank you, thank you very much.  You're too kind...

>On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
>------------------------------------
>>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>>https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.


Message aec70bac00A-9957-863+1b.htm, number 127738, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 14:23:11
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9957-785+1b.htm

Re^2: A war of words....

Max


I always thought of Atilla as being a left wing sort of guy.
Maybe "kill all the men and rape their women" doesn't readily fit in a political spectrum.
For all I know Atilla could have been head of the Hun Piece and Love Party.




n Thu Apr 6, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Wait, what?  Why "rightwing"?  I mean, I get that right wingers are traditionally thought to want more than left wingers (and not without reason), but by the same token left wingers are traditionally thought to fear war more than right wingers.  Why are war threats over Gibraltar not leftwing panic-delusions?

>Are there British politicians saying they want to declare war against Spain at this early (and likely the only) stage, really?  I'm doubtful.  I'm not over there and maybe didn't hear.  But then, politically I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, myself, so I'm probably less likely to read into right-winger rhetoric an "imperial fantasy" that isn't really there.

>On Tue Apr 4, Chrístõ wrote
>---------------------------
>>War threats over Gibraltar are rightwing imperial fantasies...


Message 6b4d5a5900A-9957-1188+1b.htm, number 127739, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 19:49:10
in reply to aec70bac00A-9957-863+1b.htm

Re^3: A war of words....

YA


Grab them by the piecey,  there's not a thing they can do...



On Thu Apr 6, Max wrote
-----------------------
>I always thought of Atilla as being a left wing sort of guy.
>Maybe "kill all the men and rape their women" doesn't readily fit in a political spectrum.
>For all I know Atilla could have been head of the Hun Piece and Love Party.
>
>
>
>
>n Thu Apr 6, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Wait, what?  Why "rightwing"?  I mean, I get that right wingers are traditionally thought to want more than left wingers (and not without reason), but by the same token left wingers are traditionally thought to fear war more than right wingers.  Why are war threats over Gibraltar not leftwing panic-delusions?

>>Are there British politicians saying they want to declare war against Spain at this early (and likely the only) stage, really?  I'm doubtful.  I'm not over there and maybe didn't hear.  But then, politically I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, myself, so I'm probably less likely to read into right-winger rhetoric an "imperial fantasy" that isn't really there.

>>On Tue Apr 4, Chrístõ wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>War threats over Gibraltar are rightwing imperial fantasies...


Message 4747f4808HW-9957-1236+15.htm, number 127740, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 20:36:09
in reply to 321763758YV-9957-809+15.htm

Re^2: uch, ouch, ouch!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


You may have missed the part where Jason arranged the prisms so that all the lowest-frequency light appeared on one location.  To be perfectly accurate that spot would be where the sun's red rays meet, not where the red sun's rays meet—but that would have spoiled part of the pun.

On Thu Apr 6, akatow wrote
--------------------------
>So bad...

>I likely have missed something, but our sun is a yellow dwarf (not that there's anything wrong with that).  Does this joke take place in an alternate galaxy?

>Is the punch line just half a pun?  Would make it a  'pun-- line'?  Inquiring minds want to know....

>On Thu Apr 6, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------

Jason Redd raised his children to love working the land, but due to various twists of fate most of them are in city office jobs now.  They've often talked about moving back to the country but have never gone beyond dreams and discussion.

>>Then one day Mark, one of his three boys, sees an ad for a cattle ranch that for some reason catches his eye.  He drives out to look at it, falls in love and comes back to talk to his brothers.  They look at it, talk over possible plans for a few weeks, and finally take the plunge.

>>On the porch of their shared mess hall they install some hanging prisms for decoration and wind chimes.  Their father spends a lot of time visiting and helping with some of the planning, and one day stops by those prisms, stares at them for a while, and then arranges them so the setting sun striking through them places all its lowest-frequency light on the wall at one spot, giving off an intense and beautiful glow.  "Boys", he then says, "I know what to name this ranch: The Burning Prism."

>>"That's got a poetic ring, Dad, but why?", asks Lonny.

>>"Because", says Jason, "it's where the Redd sons raise meat!"

>><beat>

>><another beat>

>><half a third beat, sweating slightly>

>>Ah, thank you, thank you very much.  You're too kind...

>>On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
>>------------------------------------
>>>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>>>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>>>https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>>>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>>>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>>>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.


Message 4747f4808HW-9957-1239+03.htm, number 127741, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 20:39:17
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9953-369-07.htm

Re: 'In psychology how is the 'muddy children problem' solved?' . .

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Ah, I see.  Like this:

Three logicians walk into a bar.  The bartender says "Would you all like a drink?"

The first logician says "I don't know."

The second logician says "I don't know."

The third logician says "Yes!"

On Sun Apr 2, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>. .  find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199657681%2E013%2E5270

>it is also called the cheating husbands problem.


Message 4747f4808HW-9957-1244+1b.htm, number 127736, was edited on Thu Apr 6 at 20:43:57
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-9957-785+1b.htm

Re: A war of words....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Wait, what?  Why "rightwing"?  I mean, I get that right wingers are traditionally thought to want war more than left wingers (and not without reason), but by the same token left wingers are traditionally thought to fear war more than right wingers.  Why are war threats over Gibraltar not leftwing panic-delusions?

Are there British politicians saying they want to declare war against Spain at this early (and likely the only) stage, really?  I'm doubtful.  I'm not over there and maybe didn't hear.  But then, politically I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, myself, so I'm probably less likely to read into right-winger rhetoric an "imperial fantasy" that isn't really there.

On Tue Apr 4, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>War threats over Gibraltar are rightwing imperial fantasies...

[ This message was edited on Thu Apr 6 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-9957-1252+1b.htm, number 127742, was posted on Thu Apr 6 at 20:52:51
in reply to aec70bac00A-9957-863+1b.htm

Re^3: A war of words....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Really, Max, didn't you know?  All imperialism is right-wing.  So for that matter is all violence.  Come to think of it so is racism (sheesh, I guess there are a lot of things I have to answer for), love of money, anti-science (pace Neil DeGrasse Tyson), fundamentalisms of all sorts...oh, yes, and oppression of the US colonies.

Truthfully it's just a phrase I heard somewhen during the Reagan years; I liked it and kept it.

On Thu Apr 6, Max wrote
-----------------------
>I always thought of Atilla as being a left wing sort of guy.
>Maybe "kill all the men and rape their women" doesn't readily fit in a political spectrum.
>For all I know Atilla could have been head of the Hun Piece and Love Party.

>Thu Apr 6, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Wait, what?  Why "rightwing"?  I mean, I get that right wingers are traditionally thought to want more than left wingers (and not without reason), but by the same token left wingers are traditionally thought to fear war more than right wingers.  Why are war threats over Gibraltar not leftwing panic-delusions?

>>Are there British politicians saying they want to declare war against Spain at this early (and likely the only) stage, really?  I'm doubtful.  I'm not over there and maybe didn't hear.  But then, politically I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, myself, so I'm probably less likely to read into right-winger rhetoric an "imperial fantasy" that isn't really there.

>>On Tue Apr 4, Chrístõ wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>War threats over Gibraltar are rightwing imperial fantasies...


Message 4747f4808HW-9958-644+14.htm, number 127743, was posted on Fri Apr 7 at 10:44:14
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9957-760+15.htm

Re: From my archives (since it's started)

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


On Thu Apr 6, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
Jason Redd raised his children to love working the land, but due to various twists of fate most of them are in city office jobs now.  They've often talked about moving back to the country but have never gone beyond dreams and discussion.

Then one day Mark, one of his three boys, sees an ad for a cattle ranch that for some reason catches his eye.  He drives out to look at it, falls in love and comes back to talk to his brothers.  They look at it, talk over possible plans for a few weeks, and finally take the plunge.

On the porch of their shared mess hall they install some hanging prisms for decoration and wind chimes.  Their father spends a lot of time visiting and helping with some of the planning, and one day stops by those prisms, stares at them for a while, and then arranges them so the setting sun striking through them places all its lowest-frequency light on the wall at one spot, giving off an intense and beautiful glow.  "Boys", he then says, "I know what to name this ranch: The Burning Prism."

"That's got a poetic ring, Dad, but why?", asks Lonny.

"Because", says Jason, "it's where the Redd sons raise meat!"

<beat>

<another beat>

<half a third beat, sweating slightly>

Ah, thank you, thank you very much.  You're too kind...

>On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
>------------------------------------
>>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>>https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.


Message 4747f4808HW-9958-645+14.htm, number 127735, was edited on Fri Apr 7 at 10:45:12
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-9957-760+15.htm

From my archives (since it's started)

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Jason Redd raised his children to love working the land, but due to various twists of fate most of them are in city office jobs now.  They've often talked about moving back to the country but have never gone beyond dreams and discussion.

Then one day Mark, one of his three boys, sees an ad for a cattle ranch that for some reason catches his eye.  He drives out to look at it, falls in love and comes back to talk to his brothers.  They look at it, talk over possible plans for a few weeks, and finally take the plunge.

On the porch of their shared mess hall they install some hanging prisms for decoration and wind chimes.  Their father spends a lot of time visiting and helping with some of the planning, and one day stops by those prisms, stares at them for a while, and then arranges them so the setting sun striking through them places all its lowest-frequency light on the wall at one spot, giving off an intense and beautiful glow.  "Boys", he then says, "I know what to name this ranch: The Burning Prism."

"That's got a poetic ring, Dad, but why?", asks Lonny.

"Because", says Jason, "it's where the Redd sons raise meat!"

<beat>

<another beat>

<half a third beat, sweating slightly>

Ah, thank you, thank you very much.  You're too kind...

On Tue Mar 28, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>"In the new work, published in Frontiers in Physics, Australian physicist Kirsty Kitto and Canadian psychologist Liane Gabora have applied the mathematics of quantum theory to puns. .,
>the authors of the new work argue that it is not the shift of meaning, but rather our ability to perceive both meanings simultaneously, that makes a pun funny. That’s where quantum theory comes in."

>https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/two-quantum-physicists-walk-in-and-out-of-a-bar

>The formulas are set forth here for the mathematical coves.
>journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphy.2016.00053/full

>One could suggest that this study might be an example of Quantum Triviality, but that would be a vile clench.

[ This message was edited on Fri Apr 7 by the author ]


Message aeda02d000A-9958-845-07.htm, number 127744, was posted on Fri Apr 7 at 14:05:21
Jack's telescope would be busy tonight - 4/7/17

Whoreson Beast


www.nbcnews.com/mach/space/watch-jupiter-shine-brighter-any-other-time-year-n743366

Message 53b8e143cb5-9960-1119-30.htm, number 127745, was posted on Sun Apr 9 at 18:39:35
"Paul Jones!" "Boston Beans!"

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


USS Constitution is back in the water after a couple of years in drydock for repairs. I wonder how much of it, if any, is left of the original ship? Presumably not much can happen to the beams or knees, since they're out of the weather and don't support much weight any more.

'Old Ironsides' to return after restoration


Message 46d1c29b00A-9961-56-30.htm, number 127746, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 00:55:45
Slope away

Max


I'm reading a Nick Hornsby book.
One character repeatedly uses the phrase "slope away".
My recollection is that Jack takes issue with Stephens use of the term.
Is it commonly used in the U.K.?  

Message 53d88c8a00A-9961-532+4c.htm, number 127747, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 08:52:05
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-9948-721+59.htm

Re^4: O'Brian on the power of novels

Kate Bunting


On Tue Mar 28, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>I almost - but not quite - ordered a book by Prevost, La Fayette or Richardson from the library. They're all there. One feels one should. Has anyone here read anything by any of them?
>
We studied La Princesse de Cleves (La Fayette) when I was at uni long ago. She is married to a 'dull but worthy' man, falls for a handsome charmer but decides not to marry him when her husband conveniently dies.
Dr Johnson said something like "If you read Richardson for the story you would hang yourself from impatience; you read him for the sentiment."

Message 50e5a913p13-9961-821-07.htm, number 127748, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 13:41:12
‘What is the national language of Vanuatu?. . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today's question from Oxford Reference; to find the answer go to: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780192800619%2E013%2E0177

Message 50e5a913p13-9961-832+1e.htm, number 127749, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 13:52:03
in reply to 46d1c29b00A-9961-56-30.htm

Re: Slope away

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Apr 10, Max wrote
------------------------
>I'm reading a Nick Hornsby book.
>One character repeatedly uses the phrase "slope away".
>My recollection is that Jack takes issue with Stephens use of the term.
>Is it commonly used in the U.K.?  

No. Nor is it found in the OED. Thias is the sense, I suppose:

‘slo e, v.2 Old English
Originally U.S.; perhaps formed by wrong analysis of let's lope . . colloq.
1.
a. intr. To make off, depart, decamp.
1839 F. Marryat Diary in Amer. II. 232 Here are two real American words:—‘Sloping’—for slinking away . .

b. With advs., esp. off. Also, to move (off, in, etc.) in a leisurely manner; to amble (in, etc.); to depart surreptitiously, sneak off.
1851 M. Reid Rifle Rangers vi. 50 We can't go on to Washington—what can we do but slope home again? . .

2. trans. To leave (lodgings) without paying.
In the sense of ‘cheat, trick’, slope is recorded in dialect use from 1828 onwards.
1908 Reminis. Stonemason 100 They had ‘sloped’ their lodgings.’

Jack no doubt regarded it as vulgar slang.


Message 50e5a913p13-9961-832+1e.htm, number 127749, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 13:52:03
in reply to 46d1c29b00A-9961-56-30.htm

Re: Slope away

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Apr 10, Max wrote
------------------------
>I'm reading a Nick Hornsby book.
>One character repeatedly uses the phrase "slope away".
>My recollection is that Jack takes issue with Stephens use of the term.
>Is it commonly used in the U.K.?  

No. Nor is it found in the OED. Thias is the sense, I suppose:

‘slo e, v.2 Old English
Originally U.S.; perhaps formed by wrong analysis of let's lope . . colloq.
1.
a. intr. To make off, depart, decamp.
1839 F. Marryat Diary in Amer. II. 232 Here are two real American words:—‘Sloping’—for slinking away . .

b. With advs., esp. off. Also, to move (off, in, etc.) in a leisurely manner; to amble (in, etc.); to depart surreptitiously, sneak off.
1851 M. Reid Rifle Rangers vi. 50 We can't go on to Washington—what can we do but slope home again? . .

2. trans. To leave (lodgings) without paying.
In the sense of ‘cheat, trick’, slope is recorded in dialect use from 1828 onwards.
1908 Reminis. Stonemason 100 They had ‘sloped’ their lodgings.’

Jack no doubt regarded it as vulgar slang.


Message 50e5a913p13-9961-836-90.htm, number 127750, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 13:55:40
Problem with Chrome

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


It won’t let me enter a reply to post. Instead I get:

'This page isn’t working

Chrome detected unusual code on this page and blocked it to protect your personal information (for example, passwords, phone numbers, and credit cards).

Try visiting the site's homepage. (i.e Nortons website)

ERR_BLOCKED_BY_XSS_AUDITOR’

I’ve never had this before. Has anyone else?


Message 6b13985300A-9961-883+5a.htm, number 127751, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 14:42:43
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9961-836-90.htm

Re: Problem with Chrome

YA


Yep, chrome on android. Luckily I have firefox also installed, or I wouldn't be able to reply.  
On Mon Apr 10, Chrístõ wrote
https://www.wwnorton.com/pob/forum/ceilidh.htm----------------------------
>It won’t let me enter a reply to post. Instead I get:

>'This page isn’t working

>Chrome detected unusual code on this page and blocked it to protect your personal information (for example, passwords, phone numbers, and credit cards).

>Try visiting the site's homepage. (i.e Nortons website)

>ERR_BLOCKED_BY_XSS_AUDITOR’

>I’ve never had this before. Has anyone else?


Message 4588233100A-9961-1075-07.htm, number 127752, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 17:55:27
Musica notturna delle strade di Madrid - Bo

Whoreson Beast


Luigi Boccherini in exile. Wiki entry

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_notturna_delle_strade_di_Madrid


Message 46d1cc8400A-9961-1100+1e.htm, number 127753, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 18:19:50
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9961-832+1e.htm

Re^2: Slope away

Max


Interesting. The book is Funny Girl. Its set in UK of the 1960s.
Hornsby is pure Brit and his character is Brit and is written in what the writer clearly regards as era accurate dialogue.



On Mon Apr 10, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Mon Apr 10, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>I'm reading a Nick Hornsby book.
>>One character repeatedly uses the phrase "slope away".
>>My recollection is that Jack takes issue with Stephens use of the term.
>>Is it commonly used in the U.K.?  

>No. Nor is it found in the OED. Thias is the sense, I suppose:

>‘slo e, v.2   Old English
>Originally U.S.; perhaps formed by wrong analysis of let's lope . . colloq.
> 1.
>a. intr. To make off, depart, decamp.
>1839   F. Marryat Diary in Amer. II. 232   Here are two real American words:—‘Sloping’—for slinking away .  .
>
> b. With advs., esp. off. Also, to move (off, in, etc.) in a leisurely manner; to amble (in, etc.); to depart surreptitiously, sneak off.
>1851   M. Reid Rifle Rangers vi. 50   We can't go on to Washington—what can we do but slope home again? .  .
>
> 2. trans. To leave (lodgings) without paying.
>In the sense of ‘cheat, trick’, slope is recorded in dialect use from 1828 onwards.
>1908   Reminis. Stonemason 100   They had ‘sloped’ their lodgings.’

>Jack no doubt regarded it as vulgar slang.


Message 4747f4808HW-9962-608+06.htm, number 127754, was posted on Tue Apr 11 at 10:11:00
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9961-821-07.htm

Which leads to looking up "pidgin"...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Interesting:

A variety of Melanesian pidgin and the national language of Vanuatu, sharing official status with English and French, which are the principal languages of education. Bislama, descended from "beach la mar", is a lingua franca for a population speaking some 100 distinct local languages, and is more or less evenly distributed throughout the country....In towns today, most children speak their vernacular and Bislama. In the southern islands there has been an unbroken tradition of Bislama for almost 150 years. The constitution of Vanuatu states: Lanwis blong Ripablik blong Vanuatu, hemia Bislama. Trifala lanwis blong mekem ol wok blong kantri ya, i gat Bislama mo Inglis mo Franis ‘The language of the Republic of Vanuatu is Bislama. There are three languages for conducting the business of the country, Bislama, English, and French.’...

Most of this snippet of Bislama is easy enough to work out, but "mekem ol wok" gave me trouble for a while.  I think I got it, though; "make work", ie "conducting business".  Maybe "ol" is the definite article.

So I got curious about the origin of "pidgin".  It says here that it refers to any such amalgamation of two languages, and that it comes from "pidgin English" which originally referred to the language used between speakers of English and Chinese.  (It doesn't say which Chinese language—you know they all sound alike to round-eyes.)  In pidgin English, pidgin means "business", "affair".  "Etymology uncertain, but often alleged to be the Chin pronunciation of business".  I can't figure out whether "Chin" is a typo for "Chinese" or is yet another language; anyone know?

On Mon Apr 10, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today's question from Oxford Reference; to find the answer go to: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780192800619%2E013%2E0177


Message 4747f4808HW-9962-619+06.htm, number 127755, was posted on Tue Apr 11 at 10:19:00
in reply to 4588233100A-9961-1075-07.htm

Re: Musica notturna delle strade di Madrid - Bo

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Ah!  Had to read all the way to the end to find the connection.  I always wondered about that piece.  Thanks, Beast.

On Mon Apr 10, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>Luigi Boccherini in exile. Wiki entry

>en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_notturna_delle_strade_di_Madrid


Message 182d672f0Nn-9962-1043+06.htm, number 127756, was posted on Tue Apr 11 at 17:22:56
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9962-608+06.htm

We got s-s-s-steam heat

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Vanautu is an off-the-beaten path island.

The island is essentially a semi-dormant volcano.  The major caldera on its summit is presently a lake.  Can you imagine what happens when lava meets a significant amount of water?

Visitors to the island, including Paul Theroux, have voiced concern that Vanautu has no real evacuation plan.

I was invited to join an expedition there a while back, fortunately there many more concerns than the very obvious one, so I could easily decline.

r,

Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-9963-403+05.htm, number 127757, was posted on Wed Apr 12 at 06:43:12
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9962-608+06.htm

Re: Which leads to looking up "pidgin"...

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Apr 11, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
. . >So I got curious about the origin of "pidgin".  It says here that it refers to any such amalgamation of two languages, and that it comes from "pidgin English" which originally referred to the language used between speakers of English and Chinese.  (It doesn't say which Chinese language—you know they all sound alike to round-eyes.)  In pidgin English, pidgin means "business", "affair".  "Etymology uncertain, but often alleged to be the Chin pronunciation of business".  I can't figure out whether "Chin" is a typo for "Chinese" or is yet another language; anyone know?

……….
OED has:

‘pidgin, n. Chinese Pidgin English pidgin busin ss English business n. Numerous 19th-cent. sources give this etymology. The development in Chinese Pidgin English was perhaps via an intermediate form /ˈpɪdʒɪnɪs/ (with replacement of English /z/ before a consonant by /dʒɪ/), the final syllable of which was taken as a plural inflection and dropped.
1. a. Business; an action, occupation, or affair. Now arch.
1807 R. Morrison Jrnl. in Jrnl. Asian Pacific Communication (1990) 1 93 Ting-qua led me into a Poo Saat Mew, a temple of Poo Saat. ‘This Jos’, pointing to the idol, said he ‘take care of fire “pigeon”, fire “business”’ . .

b. to be a person's pigeon: to be a person's concern, responsibility, or area of interest or expertise.
1902 Bulletin (Sydney) 27 Dec. 32/1 Guarding a house is ‘not their pidgin’ as the Chinese say... One dog one billet is their motto . .

2. Originally: pidgin English. Subsequently gen.: a language containing lexical and other features from two or more languages, characteristically with simplified grammar and a smaller vocabulary than the languages from which it is derived, used for communication between people not having a common language; a lingua franca. Freq. used to denote languages which are spoken as a second language by all their users, but also for the first languages of certain regions. Cf. Creole n. 2.
1869 Galaxy Apr. 599 An Englishman lately translated into Pigeon the familiar address ‘My name is Norval; on the Grampian Hills my father feeds his flocks’, and the result was—‘My name b'long Norval. Top side Keh-lam-pian hill; my fader chow-chow he sheep’.
. . 1978 Verbatim Feb. 10/1 Both authors hold to..the Creolist theory, which traces the present-day Black English vernacular to a Plantation Creole, to a plantation-maritime pidgin, to an African origin . .


Message 50e5a913p13-9964-347-07.htm, number 127758, was posted on Thu Apr 13 at 05:47:05
‘Which island nation includes the Gilbert, Phoenix and Ocean Islands?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference; visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199685691%2E013%2E2023 to find the answer.

Message 6c1413d300A-9964-589+1a.htm, number 127759, was posted on Thu Apr 13 at 09:49:29
in reply to 53b8e143cb5-9960-1119-30.htm

Re: "Paul Jones!" "Boston Beans!"

Don Seltzer


On Sun Apr 9, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------
>USS Constitution is back in the water after a couple of years in drydock for repairs. I wonder how much of it, if any, is left of the original ship? Presumably not much can happen to the beams or knees, since they're out of the weather and don't support much weight any more.

>'Old Ironsides' to return after restoration

Still high and dry.  I think that the return to the water is scheduled for July.

Those associated with the Constitution usually specify about 10%-15% original wood. This is primarily the keel and I believe some of the lower futtocks.  All of the planking and almost everything above the waterline has been replaced numerous times.


Message 47e54d5c00A-9964-1343-07.htm, number 127760, was posted on Thu Apr 13 at 22:23:08
A Line of Battle Ship that never left dry land.

Whoreson Beast


"USS Recruit"

www.nytimes.com/2017/04/


Message 4747f4808HW-9965-576+06.htm, number 127761, was posted on Fri Apr 14 at 09:36:42
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9964-1343-07.htm

Re: A Line of Battle Ship that never left dry land.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


For some reason my eye is attracted to the hats.  I grew up at the back edge of an era when men wore hats, and although I never owned a hat such as are photographed here, I was taught the rules, eg take it off upon going indoors.  I remember that most men wore hats.

What I don't remember is that all men wore hats.  I don't see a bare head anywhere in this photo.

...Or a woman, come to think of it.

On Thu Apr 13, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>"USS Recruit"

>www.nytimes.com/2017


Message aeda05ff00A-9966-712-07.htm, number 127762, was posted on Sat Apr 15 at 11:52:06
Mapping the sea floor

Whoreson Beast


www.nbcnews.com/mach/innovation/ocean-discovery-xprize-aims-reveal-deepest-secrets-sea-n744916

Message 47e54d5c00A-9969-950-07.htm, number 127763, was posted on Tue Apr 18 at 15:50:03
What comes of an Administration with only a "Learner's Permit"

Whoreson.Whoreson Beast


www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/world/asia/aircraf

Message 50e5a913p13-9969-1296+44.htm, number 127764, was posted on Tue Apr 18 at 21:35:58
in reply to 53d88c8a00A-9961-532+4c.htm

Johnson on Richardson

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Apr 10, Kate Bunting wrote
---------------------------------
. . Dr Johnson said something like "If you read Richardson for the story you would hang yourself from impatience; you read him for the sentiment.”
 photo Screen Shot 2017-04-19 at 00.32.39.png
The Life of Samuel Johnson, LL. D. . . p. 292 1772-aetat. 63

Message 182d672f0Nn-9969-1350+07.htm, number 127765, was posted on Tue Apr 18 at 22:30:37
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9969-950-07.htm

What comes of defense analysts that don't even have a "learner's permit"?

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Tue Apr 18, Whoreson.Whoreson Beast wrote
--------------------------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/world/asia/aircraf

Ah, the New York Times as a source.  I remember Drew Middleton was their military affairs editor.  Prior to that he covered baseball for the Times.

Did the Times mention that exercises often position military and naval forces in a certain location for more than one purpose.

I spend eight years going to a joint US-Korean exercise that occurred at harvest time in Korea.  For decades Communist doctrine for the initiation of war was wait until the harvest is in, then attack.  As it turned out on one occasion I went to that particular exercise and found out it was preempted by Operation Desert Storm (in this case an attack by an Islamic aggressor).  I twiddled my thumbs for two weeks in Korea while everything that flew or floated when to the Persian Gulf.

Did the Times in anyway indicate that an exercise would somehow preempt national security operations or that a carrier task force can only handle one mission at a time?  Does the Times assert exercises have a higher priority than national security?

Perhaps Drew Middleton's legacy prevails.  Baseball teams only play one game at a time against one opponent at a time.  How many veterans do you think they have on the Times staff these days?

r,

Caltrop


Message 4747f4808HW-9970-742-30.htm, number 127766, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 12:22:47
Off-topic: Antibiotics and resistance thereto

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 47e54d5c00A-9970-886-07.htm, number 127767, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 14:46:00
Sea Cyclones

Whoreson Beast


www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/01/underwater-probes-detect-sea-cyclones-coast-africa

Message 47e54d5c00A-9970-891+1e.htm, number 127768, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 14:51:00
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9970-742-30.htm

Perhaps these will give you some comfort.

Whoreson Beast


Slightly on topic!

aeon.co/videos/how-our-bodies-can-create-billions-of-defences-against-disease-with-just-20000-genes

mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/science/giant-shipworm.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/


Message 47e54d5c00A-9970-1192-07.htm, number 127769, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 19:52:28
Discovery and extinction of Steller's Sea Cow

Whoreson Beast


www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/04/pleistoseacow/522831/?utm_source=nl-atlantic-daily-041917

Message 6242b06200A-9970-1247+1e.htm, number 127770, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 20:47:53
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9970-742-30.htm

Re: Off-topic: Antibiotics and resistance thereto

YA


All well and good for you, not so good for anyone you come in contact with that's immunocompromised; very old, very young, on chemo or some such. I'll let akatow smack me up for inaccuracy when she comes along, but as I understand it,  if you're given a course of antibiotics, you're given enough so your immune system can take control and knock the rest down.

I read a reddit thread a while back that astonished me as to how silly some people can be about this. They'll be prescribed a course of antibiotics, stop taking them when they 'feel better' then they'll have some antibiotics they can take 'when they feel a little sick' later on. Yeesh.


And then there's battery farming...but hey,cheap chicken!  

On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 4981ca22cZn-9970-1284+1e.htm, number 127771, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 21:25:37
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9970-742-30.htm

Antibiotics and resistance thereto

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Here are two articles on the topic:

www.cdc.gov/drugresistance/about.html

A short, but key, quote from this article: (emphasis added)

The use of antibiotics is the single most important factor leading to antibiotic resistance around the world.  Simply using antibiotics creates resistance.


learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/microbiome/resistance/

From this article:

Acquired Resistance

Bacteria can also acquire resistance. This happens when a type of bacteria changes in a way that protects it from the antibiotic. Bacteria can acquire resistance in two ways: either through a new genetic change that helps the bacterium survive, or by getting DNA from a bacterium that is already resistant.

Genetic Change

So how can a simple DNA change protect bacteria from antibiotics? Remember, DNA provides instructions to make proteins, so a change in DNA can cause a change in a protein. Sometimes this DNA change will affect the protein’s shape. If this happens at the place on the protein where an antibiotic acts, the antibiotic may no longer be able to recognize where it needs to do its job.

Changes like this can prevent an antibiotic from getting into the cell, or prevent the antibiotic from working once it’s inside. Once a change occurs, it can spread in a population of bacteria through processes like reproduction or DNA transfer.



On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 44e443c600A-9970-1428+06.htm, number 127772, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 23:48:20
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9969-1350+07.htm

Re: What comes of defense analysts that don't even have a "learner's permit"?

CJP


That's good, Caltrop.  I've often thought how wonderful it would be to express an opinion on topics about which I have zero knowledge and actually have said opinion be seriously considered by tens of thousands of readers.  Writing on military issues should require a competency test or something of the like.  

On Tue Apr 18, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>On Tue Apr 18, Whoreson.Whoreson Beast wrote
>--------------------------------------------
>>www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/world/asia/aircraf

>Ah, the New York Times as a source.  I remember Drew Middleton was their military affairs editor.  Prior to that he covered baseball for the Times.

>Did the Times mention that exercises often position military and naval forces in a certain location for more than one purpose.

>I spend eight years going to a joint US-Korean exercise that occurred at harvest time in Korea.  For decades Communist doctrine for the initiation of war was wait until the harvest is in, then attack.  As it turned out on one occasion I went to that particular exercise and found out it was preempted by Operation Desert Storm (in this case an attack by an Islamic aggressor).  I twiddled my thumbs for two weeks in Korea while everything that flew or floated when to the Persian Gulf.

>Did the Times in anyway indicate that an exercise would somehow preempt national security operations or that a carrier task force can only handle one mission at a time?  Does the Times assert exercises have a higher priority than national security?

>Perhaps Drew Middleton's legacy prevails.  Baseball teams only play one game at a time against one opponent at a time.  How many veterans do you think they have on the Times staff these days?

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9971-458+05.htm, number 127773, was posted on Thu Apr 20 at 07:37:40
in reply to 44e443c600A-9970-1428+06.htm

Ben Rhodes said it first

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Apr 19, CJP wrote
------------------------
>That's good, Caltrop.  I've often thought how wonderful it would be to express an opinion on topics about which I have zero knowledge and actually have said opinion be seriously considered by tens of thousands of readers.  Writing on military issues should require a competency test or something of the like.  

"They literally know nothing."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2016/05/05/white-house-official-on-some-reporters-overseas-expertise-they-literally-know-nothing/?utm_term=.2b3e460a6a37

If you can't trust Ben Rhodes, who can you trust?

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9971-549+05.htm, number 127773, was edited on Thu Apr 20 at 09:09:36
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9971-458+05.htm

Ben Rhodes said it first

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Apr 19, CJP wrote
------------------------
>That's good, Caltrop.  I've often thought how wonderful it would be to express an opinion on topics about which I have zero knowledge and actually have said opinion be seriously considered by tens of thousands of readers.  Writing on military issues should require a competency test or something of the like.  

"They literally know nothing."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2016/05/05/white-house-official-on-some-reporters-overseas-expertise-they-literally-know-nothing/?utm_term=.2b3e460a6a37

If you can't trust Ben Rhodes, who can you trust?

https://news.usni.org/2017/04/19/carl-vinson-carrier-strike-group-deployment-extended?utm_source=USNI+News&utm_campaign=d054d2df9c-USNI_NEWS_DAILY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_0dd4a1450b-d054d2df9c-230426389&mc_cid=d054d2df9c&mc_eid=e10fcda69a

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Thu Apr 20 by the author ]


Message 182d672f0Nn-9971-552+05.htm, number 127773, was edited on Thu Apr 20 at 09:12:16
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9971-549+05.htm

Ben Rhodes said it first

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Apr 19, CJP wrote
------------------------
>That's good, Caltrop.  I've often thought how wonderful it would be to express an opinion on topics about which I have zero knowledge and actually have said opinion be seriously considered by tens of thousands of readers.  Writing on military issues should require a competency test or something of the like.  

"They literally know nothing."

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2016/05/05/white-house-official-on-some-report

If you can't trust Ben Rhodes, who can you trust?

news.usni.org/2017/04/19/carl-vinson-carrier-strike-group-deployment-extended?utm_source=USNI+News&utm_campaign=d054d2df9c-USNI_NEWS_DAILY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_0dd4a1450b-d054d2df9c-230426389&mc_cid=d054d2df9c&mc_eid=e10fcda69a

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Thu Apr 20 by the author ]


Message 41802a2cUWK-9972-79+05.htm, number 127774, was posted on Fri Apr 21 at 01:19:18
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9970-1192-07.htm

The modern science of extinction.

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


No one figured it out before the Europeans?


On Wed Apr 19, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/04/pleistoseacow/522831/?utm_source=nl-atlantic-daily-041917

Message 41802a2cUWK-9972-90+04.htm, number 127775, was posted on Fri Apr 21 at 01:29:55
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9971-552+05.htm

Carrier Flip Flops

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Can't we get those Herring Busses into port where they will be safe?



On Thu Apr 20, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>On Wed Apr 19, CJP wrote
>------------------------
>>That's good, Caltrop.  I've often thought how wonderful it would be to express an opinion on topics about which I have zero knowledge and actually have said opinion be seriously considered by tens of thousands of readers.  Writing on military issues should require a competency test or something of the like.  

>"They literally know nothing."

>www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2016/05/05/white-house-official-on-some

>If you can't trust Ben Rhodes, who can you trust?

>news.usni.org

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 47e54d5c00A-9972-817+05.htm, number 127776, was posted on Fri Apr 21 at 13:37:08
in reply to 41802a2cUWK-9972-79+05.htm

Re: The modern science of extinction.

Guest


On Fri Apr 21, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>No one figured it out before the Europeans?
>
>Guns, Germs, Steel and The Scientific Method"?

Message 182d672f0Nn-9972-985+04.htm, number 127777, was posted on Fri Apr 21 at 16:24:37
in reply to 41802a2cUWK-9972-90+04.htm

Re: Carrier Flip Flops

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


I think we'll have to note your longstanding prejudice against carriers before we consider their value as a show of force in this situation.

Here we move them about as a gesture of sincerity and the Gray Lady undercuts the gesture.  

How long can Soros keep her afloat? At least carriers have been consistent in their missions.  The Gray Lady no longer tries to be the "newspaper of record."

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9973-516+03.htm, number 127777, was edited on Sat Apr 22 at 08:35:59
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9972-985+04.htm

Re: Carrier Track Shoes

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


I think we'll have to note your longstanding prejudice against carriers before we consider their value as a show of force in this situation.

Here we move them about as a gesture of sincerity and the Gray Lady undercuts the gesture.  

How long can Soros keep her afloat? At least carriers have been consistent in their missions.  The Gray Lady no longer tries to be the "newspaper of record."

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Sat Apr 22 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9973-572-90.htm, number 127778, was posted on Sat Apr 22 at 09:31:50
Rare parchment manuscript of US Declaration of Independence found in England

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Alan Yuhas writes: When in the course of human events it becomes necessary to visit a tiny records office in southern England because it claims to have a copy of the Declaration of Independence, a decent respect for history requires investigation.
 photo Screen Shot 2017-04-22 at 14.08.21.png
On Friday two Harvard University researchers announced they had found a parchment copy of the declaration, only the second parchment manuscript copy known to exist besides the one kept in the National Archives in Washington DC. Professor Danielle Allen and researcher Emily Sneff presented their findings on the document, known as “The Sussex Declaration”, at a conference at Yale on Friday, and published initial research online: declaration.fas.harvard.edu/resources/sussex-dec

. .  Somehow the manuscript landed in Britain, possibly in the possession of the dukes of Richmond. Sneff said she is hoping to gain access to the papers of the dukes to trace the declaration’s history, possibly as far back as Charles Lennox, a contemporary of George III who was called “the radical duke” because he supported American colonists in their rebellion against the king and parliament.

“It would be nice to associate this document with the radical duke,” Sneff said.

[www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/declaration-of-independence-sussex-england-rare]

It is, I imagine, worth a lot of money so there will now be an interesting, perhaps fierce, tussle to decide to whom it belongs.


Message 50e5a913p13-9973-728+5a.htm, number 127779, was posted on Sat Apr 22 at 12:08:33
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9973-572-90.htm

It seems I cannot post replies with this browser

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Apr 22, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Alan Yuhas writes: When in the course of human events it becomes necessary to visit a tiny records office in southern England because it claims to have a copy of the Declaration of Independence, a decent respect for history requires investigation.
> photo Screen Shot 2017-04-22 at 14.08.21.png
>On Friday two Harvard University researchers announced they had found a parchment copy of the declaration, only the second parchment manuscript copy known to exist besides the one kept in the National Archives in Washington DC. Professor Danielle Allen and researcher Emily Sneff presented their findings on the document, known as “The Sussex Declaration”, at a conference at Yale on Friday, and published initial research online: declaration.fas.harvard.edu/resources/sussex-dec

> . .  Somehow the manuscript landed in Britain, possibly in the possession of the dukes of Richmond. Sneff said she is hoping to gain access to the papers of the dukes to trace the declaration’s history, possibly as far back as Charles Lennox, a contemporary of George III who was called “the radical duke” because he supported American colonists in their rebellion against the king and parliament.

>“It would be nice to associate this document with the radical duke,” Sneff said.

>[www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/declaration-of-independence-sussex-england-rare]

>It is, I imagine, worth a lot of money so there will now be an interesting, perhaps fierce, tussle to decide to whom it belongs.


Message 50e5a913p13-9973-730+03.htm, number 127780, was posted on Sat Apr 22 at 12:09:37
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9973-516+03.htm

Test reply

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Apr 22, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>I think we'll have to note your longstanding prejudice against carriers before we consider their value as a show of force in this situation.

>Here we move them about as a gesture of sincerity and the Gray Lady undercuts the gesture.  

>How long can Soros keep her afloat? At least carriers have been consistent in their missions.  The Gray Lady no longer tries to be the "newspaper of record."

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-9973-734+03.htm, number 127780, was edited on Sat Apr 22 at 12:14:27
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9973-730+03.htm

No title!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Apr 22, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
. .  we move them about as a gesture of sincerity . .

. . all too easily misconstrued as confusion by onlookers:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-04-22 at 17.11.22.png”>

[ This message was edited on Sat Apr 22 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9973-735+03.htm, number 127780, was edited on Sat Apr 22 at 12:15:20
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9973-734+03.htm

. . endlessly steaming . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Apr 22, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
. .  we move them about as a gesture of sincerity . .

. . all too easily misconstrued as confusion by onlookers:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-04-22 at 17.11.22.png”>

[ This message was edited on Sat Apr 22 by the author ]


Message cd995ca900A-9973-870+5a.htm, number 127781, was posted on Sat Apr 22 at 14:30:15
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9973-572-90.htm

James wilson

Max



A great time to bring up the neglected James Wilson. Wilson, like Hamilton, was an adult immigrant to America, arriving only a decade before the revolution.
His fervor and skills were so great he still became one of the prime creators of the new country. He was closely accociated with Dickenson pre revolution and with Madison during the creation period.
He signed the Declaration and the Constitution and was an original member of the Supreme Court. He successfully defended the Philidelphia Tories in the face of what started out as a lynch mob. He litigated Olmstead, the first Admiralty case in U.S. History of any consequence.
A towering intellect.





On Sat Apr 22, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Alan Yuhas writes: When in the course of human events it becomes necessary to visit a tiny records office in southern England because it claims to have a copy of the Declaration of Independence, a decent respect for history requires investigation.
> photo Screen Shot 2017-04-22 at 14.08.21.png
>On Friday two Harvard University researchers announced they had found a parchment copy of the declaration, only the second parchment manuscript copy known to exist besides the one kept in the National Archives in Washington DC. Professor Danielle Allen and researcher Emily Sneff presented their findings on the document, known as “The Sussex Declaration”, at a conference at Yale on Friday, and published initial research online: declaration.fas.harvard.edu/resources/sussex-dec

> . .  Somehow the manuscript landed in Britain, possibly in the possession of the dukes of Richmond. Sneff said she is hoping to gain access to the papers of the dukes to trace the declaration’s history, possibly as far back as Charles Lennox, a contemporary of George III who was called “the radical duke” because he supported American colonists in their rebellion against the king and parliament.

>“It would be nice to associate this document with the radical duke,” Sneff said.

>[www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/declaration-of-independence-sussex-england-rare]

>It is, I imagine, worth a lot of money so there will now be an interesting, perhaps fierce, tussle to decide to whom it belongs.


Message 465fd3f38YV-9975-1046+19.htm, number 127782, was posted on Mon Apr 24 at 17:25:58
in reply to 6242b06200A-9970-1247+1e.htm

Re^2: What?

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


No, no..there's a basic misunderstanding here. It's too much to tap out on  iPad and my computer is busy deciding whether it's going to die or be miraculously brought back from the edge.  I'll be back.

On Wed Apr 19, YA wrote
-----------------------
>All well and good for you, not so good for anyone you come in contact with that's immunocompromised; very old, very young, on chemo or some such. I'll let akatow smack me up for inaccuracy when she comes along, but as I understand it,  if you're given a course of antibiotics, you're given enough so your immune system can take control and knock the rest down.

>I read a reddit thread a while back that astonished me as to how silly some people can be about this. They'll be prescribed a course of antibiotics, stop taking them when they 'feel better' then they'll have some antibiotics they can take 'when they feel a little sick' later on. Yeesh.
>
>
>And then there's battery farming...but hey,cheap chicken!  
>
>On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 47e54d5c00A-9975-1239-07.htm, number 127783, was posted on Mon Apr 24 at 20:38:56
Discharged Dead: Robert Pirsig. "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence"

Whoreson Beast


www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/books/zen-art-motorcycle-maintenance-author-robert-pirsig-dead-n750486

Message 68cdad96gpf-9975-1347+07.htm, number 127784, was posted on Mon Apr 24 at 22:26:44
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9975-1239-07.htm

Re: Discharged Dead: Robert Pirsig. "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence"

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


That book bowled me over at the age of 19. I found it hugely compelling as a travel story and a sort of mystery, and hugely confusing as philosophy. I read it twice more over the years and thought I might be grasping something of what he was getting at. Lila contained some interesting ideas as well, but was less compelling as a travel story, I thought.


On Mon Apr 24, Whoreson Beast  wrote
------------------------------------
>www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/books/zen-art-motorcycle-maintenance-author-robert-pirsig-dead-n750486

Message 50e5a913p13-9976-448+06.htm, number 127785, was posted on Tue Apr 25 at 07:28:04
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9975-1239-07.htm

A 1976 review from England

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Apr 24, Whoreson Beast  wrote
------------------------------------
>www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/books/zen-art-motorcycle-maintenance-author-robert-pirsig-dead-n750486

Thanks for this reminder of a happy time; here’s the review that my particular friend M wrote in the endless hot summer days of 1976
 photo ZAMM 1.png”/ height=300%></a><BR><a href= photo ZAMM 2.png


Message 50e5a913p13-9976-531+06.htm, number 127785, was edited on Tue Apr 25 at 08:51:15
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9976-448+06.htm

A 1976 review from England

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Apr 24, Whoreson Beast  wrote
------------------------------------
>www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/books/zen-art-motorcycle-maintenance-author-robert-pirsig-dead-n750486

Thanks for this reminder of a happy time; here’s the review that my particular friend M wrote in the endless hot summer days of 1976:
 photo ZAMM 1.png” height=200%></a><BR><a href= photo ZAMM 2.png

[undercurrents1972.wordpress.com/2013/02/09/uc16-june-july-1976/]

[ This message was edited on Tue Apr 25 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9976-779+06.htm, number 127785, was edited on Tue Apr 25 at 12:59:17
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9976-531+06.htm

A 1976 review from England

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Apr 24, Whoreson Beast  wrote
------------------------------------
>www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/books/zen-art-motorcycle-maintenance-author-robert-pirsig-dead-n750486

Thanks for this reminder of a happy time; here’s the review that my particular friend M wrote in the endless hot summer days of 1976:
 photo ZAMM 1.png” height=200%></a><BR><a href= photo ZAMM 2.png

[undercurrents1972.wordpress.com/2013/02/09/uc16-june-july-1976/]
….

[ This message was edited on Tue Apr 25 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9976-781+00.htm, number 127780, was edited on Tue Apr 25 at 13:00:53
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9973-735+03.htm

. . endlessly steaming . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Apr 22, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
. .  we move them about as a gesture of sincerity . .

. . all too easily misconstrued as confusion by onlookers:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-04-22 at 17.11.22.png”>

[ This message was edited on Tue Apr 25 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9976-795+06.htm, number 127786, was posted on Tue Apr 25 at 13:14:44
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9975-1239-07.htm

Guardian obituary

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/25/robert-pirsig-obituary

Message 465fd3f38YV-9976-927+18.htm, number 127787, was posted on Tue Apr 25 at 15:30:26
in reply to 465fd3f38YV-9975-1046+19.htm

Re^3: What?

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


The concept of not giving antibiotics too 'freely', comes out of the 60's and 70's when Medicine was so giddy about finally having a powerful weapon against disease-causing bacteria that they prescribed antibiotics without much discretion.  If you had a sore throat and a fever, you were treated for Strep.  Lab tests used to take up to a week for the results to come back; if you waited and you had Strep, which is fairly contagious, you would probably develop Scarlet Fever and/or Rheumatic heart disease. If the antibiotics didn't help you, well, then you probably had a virus, (or they gave you another more powerful antibiotic!). No harm, no foul, right?  Except that there were those unintended consequences...

Bob, random mutations happen in nature ALL THE TIME.  They especially happen in populations of organisms which reproduce their numbers in the billions.  Bacteria are everywhere, and they live quite harmoniously in the human body,(e.g. -e.coli which synthesizes Vitamin K, without which you would bleed to death)until something happens that shifts the balance in their favor and then they multiply like no one's business...such as when most of their population dies off and leaves that particular bacterial niche they call home free and open for them to repopulate with more bacteria just like them - the one's that couldn't be killed by whatever got the other guys.

Bacteria make you ill by excreting toxins - in small numbers, this in not a problem. In larger numbers, they activate your immune system. In overwhelming numbers, like what happened to you Bob, your body's immune system works so hard to rid itself of bacteria that it harms itself.

Antibiotics work by creating a hostile environment for the bacteria, you must take antibiotics for the full ten days to make sure that you have killed ALL of them - even the resistant ones.  I would explain why it's ten days but that's another story, (as is a lot of this).


On Mon Apr 24, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>No, no..there's a basic misunderstanding here. It's too much to tap out on  iPad and my computer is busy deciding whether it's going to die or be miraculously brought back from the edge.  I'll be back.

>On Wed Apr 19, YA wrote
>-----------------------
>>All well and good for you, not so good for anyone you come in contact with that's immunocompromised; very old, very young, on chemo or some such. I'll let akatow smack me up for inaccuracy when she comes along, but as I understand it,  if you're given a course of antibiotics, you're given enough so your immune system can take control and knock the rest down.

>>I read a reddit thread a while back that astonished me as to how silly some people can be about this. They'll be prescribed a course of antibiotics, stop taking them when they 'feel better' then they'll have some antibiotics they can take 'when they feel a little sick' later on. Yeesh.
>>
>>
>>And then there's battery farming...but hey,cheap chicken!  
>>
>>On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>>>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>>>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>>>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 4747f4808HW-9976-1045+06.htm, number 127788, was posted on Tue Apr 25 at 17:24:54
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9975-1239-07.htm

Dunno about the "me" generation...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I don't know about the "me" generation (why should they have responded to that book in any special way?), but I finally read it in my early 40s.  As one who never managed to care about engine maintenance I found it deeply interesting—it didn't convert me, but it drew me.  As a philosophical discussion of Quality it entranced and delighted me; it didn't change my life, but it gave me ways to express and defend concepts that may be subjective but are not therefore unreal.  As a tale of encroaching madness it chilled and disturbed me; I was simultaneously creeped out and riveted.  I guess it's time to read it a third time, or maybe it's my fourth.

On Mon Apr 24, Whoreson Beast  wrote
------------------------------------
>www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/books/zen-art-motorcycle-maintenance-author-robert-pirsig-dead-n750486


Message 50e5a913p13-9977-302-90.htm, number 127789, was posted on Wed Apr 26 at 05:02:53
Charles II, 1661: An Act for the Establishing Articles and Orders for the regulateing and better Government of His Majesties Navies Ships of Warr & Forces by Sea.

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Which it’s yer actual Articles (edited for length):

Articles to be observed

FOR the regulateing and better Government of his Majesties Navies Ships of War and Forces by Sea wherein under the good Providence and protection of God the Wealth Safety and Strength of this Kingdome is soe much concerned Bee it Enacted by the Kings most Excellent Majesty with the advice and consent of the Lords and Commons in this present Parliam[en]t assembled and by the Authority thereof That all and every the Articles and Orders in this Act menc[i]oned shall be duely and respectively put in Execution observed and obeyed in manner hereafter menc[i]oned.

The public Worship of God.

1. That all Co[m]manders Captaines and other Officers att Sea shall cause the publique Worshipp of Almighty God according to the Liturgy of the Church of England established by Law to be solemnly orderly and reverently performed in theire respective Ships And that prayers and preachings by the respective Chaplaines in holy Orders of the respective Ships be performed diligently and that the Lords Day be observed according to Law.

Swearing, Drunkenness, &c.

2. Every person and persons in his Majesties pay using unlawfull and rash Oathes Cursings Execrations Drunkennes Uncleannes or other Scandalous Actions in derogation of Gods Honour and corruption of good manners shall be punished by Fine Imprisonment or otherwise as the Court Martiall shall thinke fitt. . .

Punishment.; Yielding, &c.; Punishment.

10. Every Captain or Commander who upon signall or order of fight or view or sight of any Ships of the Enemy Pirate or Rebell or likelihood of Engagement shall not put all things in his Ship in a fitt posture for fight and shall not in his owne person and according to his place hearten and encourage the Inferior Officers and common men to fight couragiously and not to behave themselves faintly shall bee [casheire (fn. 2) ] And if he or they shall yeild to the Enemy Pirate or Rebells or cry for quarter he or they soe doeing shall suffer the paines of death or such other punishment as the offence shall deserve.

Inferior Officers not observing the Commands of their Superiors. Punishment.

11. Every Captaine Commander and other Officer Seaman or Souldier of any Shipp Frigott or Vessell of Warre shall duly observe the Commands of the Admirall or other his Superior or Commander of any Squadron as well for the assailing or setting upon any Fleete Squadron or Ships of the Enemy Pirate or Rebells or joyning Battel with them or making defence against them as all other the Commands of the Admirall or other his Superior Commander upon pain to suffer death or other punishment as the quality of his neglect or offence shall deserve.

Officers in time of fight withdrawing or not fighting.; Punishment.

12. Every Captaine and all other Officers Mariners and Souldiers of every Ship Frigott or Vessell of War that shall in time of any fight or engagement withdraw or keepe backe or not come into the fight and engage and do his utmost to take fire kill and endamage the Enemy Pirate or Rebells and assist and releive all and every of His Majesties Ships shall for such offence of cowardice or disaffection be tried and suffer paines of death or other punishment as the circumstances of the offence shall deserve and the Court martiall shall judge fitt. . .

Deserting.; Punishment.

17. All Sea Captains Officers or Mariners that shall desert the Service or theire Imployment in the Ships or shall run away or intice any others soe to doe shall be punished with death. . .

Sedition, Mutiny, Punishment.

19. Noe Person in or belonging to the Fleete shall utter any words of Sedition or Mutiny nor make or endeavour to make any mutinous Assemblies upon any pretence whatsoever upon pain of death. . .

Quarrelling with or striking a superior Officer.

21. None shall presume to quarrell with his Superior Officer upon pain of severe punishment nor to strike any such upon pain of death or otherwise as a Court martiall shall finde the matter to deserve.

Complaint of unwholesome Victuals how to be made.; Exciting Disturbance thereon.; Punishment.;

22. If any of the Fleet finde cause of Complaint of the unwholesomnes of his Victuals or upon other just ground he shall quietly make the same knowne to his Superior or Captaine or Commander in Cheife as the occasion may deserve that such present remedy may bee had as the matter may require and the said Superior or Commander is to cause the same to be presently remedied accordingly but no person upon any such or other pretence shall privately attempt to stirr up any disturbance upon pain of such severe punishment as a Court martiall shall finde meete to inflict. . .

Murders.

28. All Murders and wilfull killing of any persons in the ship shall be punished with death.

Robbery and Theft.

29. All Robbery and Theft committed by any person in or belonging to the Fleet shall be punished with death or otherwise as the Court martiall upon considerac[i]on of circumstances shall finde meete. . .

Sodomy.

32. If any person or persons in or belonging to the Fleet shall commit the unnaturall and detestable sin of Buggery or Sodomy with Man or Beast he shall be punished with death without mercy.

Misdemeanors and Disorders at Sea.

33. All other Faults Misdemeanors and Disorders committed att Sea not mentioned in this Act shall be punished according to the Lawes and Customes in such cases used att Sea. . .

[www.british-history.ac.uk/statutes-realm/vol5/pp311-314]


Message 43ee63ba00A-9977-504-07.htm, number 127790, was posted on Wed Apr 26 at 08:24:24
Is poor Mr. Stanhope's grave in danger?

Whoreson Beast


www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/climate/tasmania-global-wa

Better to be buried at sea; sewn into your hammock with two roundshot....


Message 182d672f0Nn-9977-597-07.htm, number 127791, was posted on Wed Apr 26 at 09:56:45
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9976-781+00.htm

Erasure

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com



Now that's interesting.  A poster can pull almost an entire thread, not just his own posting.

r,

Caltrop


Message 434f071e00A-9977-699-07.htm, number 127792, was posted on Wed Apr 26 at 11:39:47
POB editors

Curious


Is anyone aware of a list of editors POB worked with on the various books, particularly The Canon? Am aware of Starling Lawrence's original purchase of US rights, but see no other references to POB editors anywhere.

Message 182d672f0Nn-9977-1198-07.htm, number 127793, was posted on Wed Apr 26 at 19:58:08
No title!

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


/a?

Here's one read on the Far East crisis:

US: China, there's a new sheriff in town. We're not going to send all our manufacturing to you anymore. You steal proprietary information that contractually you can't touch. You dump product on the US market destroying US industries. You mess with the balance of trade. You mess with your currency. You make products of US companies and then sell copies of the same products on the gray market.

CHINA: Can't we just all be friends and keep your ships out of the Pacific so we can steal the Spratlys, Paracels, Pratas, etc., etc.

DPRK: Yap-yap, yap-yap, nuke, nuke!

US: China, can't you get a leash on that dog?

CHINA: US. we'd really, really like to, but we're really consumed with concern about the collapse of our economy and not getting those islands. We really can't get too serious with this dog with all our problems. (Kicks dog so he'll bark more.)

DPRK: Threats, yap-yap. Parades, yap-yap. Missile tests, yap-yap. Incarcerate tourists, yap-yap. Artillery exercises. Nuke, nuke!

CHINA: Oh dear me.

In sum, China fearing it is about to lose critical US trade and is encouraging the DPRK to act up with the hope of winning China concessions.

r,

Caltrop


Message 465fd3f38YV-9977-1226+07.htm, number 127794, was posted on Wed Apr 26 at 20:25:53
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9977-597-07.htm

Re: Erasure

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Methinks that would have been a useful tool, back in the day.. (albeit all the while opening the door for rampant censorship)

And you did this, how?




On Wed Apr 26, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>>Now that's interesting.  A poster can pull almost an entire thread, not just his own posting.

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9977-1198+07.htm, number 127793, was edited on Wed Apr 26 at 22:09:07
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9977-1198-07.htm

No title!

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/15/kim-jong-un-in-pictures-bizarre-photoshoots-of-north-

Here's one read on the Far East crisis:

US: China, there's a new sheriff in town.  We're not going to send all our manufacturing to you anymore.  You steal proprietary information that contractually you can't touch.  You dump product on the US market destroying US industries.  You mess with the balance of trade.  You mess with your currency.  You make products of US companies and then sell copies of the same products on the gray market.

CHINA:  Can't we just all be friends and keep your ships out of the Pacific so we can steal the Spratlys, Paracels, Pratas, etc., etc.

DPRK:  Yap-yap, yap-yap, nuke, nuke!

US:  China, can't you get a leash on that dog?

CHINA:  US. we'd really, really like to, but we're really consumed with concern about the collapse of our economy and not getting those islands.  We really can't get too serious with this dog with all our problems.  (Kicks dog so he'll bark more.)

DPRK:  Threats, yap-yap.  Parades, yap-yap.   Missile tests, yap-yap.  Incarcerate tourists, yap-yap.  Artillery exercises. Nuke, nuke!

CHINA: Oh dear me.

In sum, China fearing it is about to lose critical US trade and is encouraging the DPRK to act up with the hope of winning China concessions.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Apr 26 by the author ]


Message 182d672f0Nn-9977-1198+07.htm, number 127793, was edited on Wed Apr 26 at 22:12:47
The Land of Morning Calm and the Dragon

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/15/kim-jong-un-in-pictures-bizarre-photoshoots-of

Here's one read on the Far East crisis:

US: China, there's a new sheriff in town.  We're not going to send all our manufacturing to you anymore.  You steal proprietary information that contractually you can't touch.  You dump product on the US market destroying US industries.  You mess with the balance of trade.  You mess with your currency.  You make products of US companies and then sell copies of the same products on the gray market.

CHINA:  Can't we just all be friends and keep your ships out of the Pacific so we can steal the Spratlys, Paracels, Pratas, etc., etc.

DPRK:  Yap-yap, yap-yap, nuke, nuke!

US:  China, can't you get a leash on that dog?

CHINA:  US. we'd really, really like to, but we're really consumed with concern about the collapse of our economy and not getting those islands.  We really can't get too serious with this dog with all our problems.  (Kicks dog so he'll bark more.)

DPRK:  Threats, yap-yap.  Parades, yap-yap.   Missile tests, yap-yap.  Incarcerate tourists, yap-yap.  Artillery exercises. Nuke, nuke!

CHINA: Oh dear me.

In sum, China, fearing it is about to lose critical US trade, encourages the DPRK to act up with the hope of winning China concessions if it appears to be a "peacemaker."

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Apr 26 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-9978-611+06.htm, number 127795, was posted on Thu Apr 27 at 10:11:08
in reply to 43ee63ba00A-9977-504-07.htm

Apparently not

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Judging by the photo, that graveyard is many tens of meters above the current sea level.

On Wed Apr 26, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/climate/tasmania-globa

>Better to be buried at sea; sewn into your hammock with two roundshot....


Message 182d672f0Nn-9978-1132+06.htm, number 127796, was posted on Thu Apr 27 at 18:51:57
in reply to 465fd3f38YV-9977-1226+07.htm

Re^2: Erasure

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Apr 26, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Methinks that would have been a useful tool, back in the day.. (albeit all the while opening the door for rampant censorship)

>And you did this, how?
>
>


I don't know it. In fact I don't remember seeing if before.  It only occurred with two threads.  Normally in the past when a post went bold black, that meant the poster has retracted it.

What are the odds of four retractors all striking on the same day?

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9978-1136+06.htm, number 127796, was edited on Thu Apr 27 at 18:56:32
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9978-1132+06.htm

Re^2: Erasure

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Apr 26, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Methinks that would have been a useful tool, back in the day.. (albeit all the while opening the door for rampant censorship)

>And you did this, how?
>
>


I DON'T know it. In fact I don't remember seeing if before.  It only occurred with two threads.  Normally in the past when a post went bold black, that meant the poster has retracted it and did not affect other posts in the thread.

What are the odds of eight retractors all striking on the same day?  The three common posters to both threads are Christo, Culling Simples and myself. I didn't retract any.

A puzzlement.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Thu Apr 27 by the author ]


Message 182d672f0Nn-9978-1140+06.htm, number 127796, was edited on Thu Apr 27 at 19:00:11
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9978-1136+06.htm

Re^2: Erasure

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed Apr 26, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Methinks that would have been a useful tool, back in the day.. (albeit all the while opening the door for rampant censorship)

>And you did this, how?
>
>


I DON'T know it. In fact I don't remember seeing if before.  It only occurred with two, no three, threads.  Normally in the past when a post went bold black, that meant the poster has retracted it and it did not affect other posts in the thread.

What are the odds of eight retractors (the first two bold black threads) all striking on the same day?  The three common posters to the first two threads are Christo, Culling Simples and myself. I didn't retract any.

A puzzlement.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Thu Apr 27 by the author ]


Message 46d300f900A-9979-93+05.htm, number 127797, was posted on Fri Apr 28 at 01:33:26
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9978-1140+06.htm

Re^3: Or

Max


The first poster checked the one week box on the 18th and on the 25th that post and its replies lapsed.

Horses not Zebras.




On Thu Apr 27, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>On Wed Apr 26, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>Methinks that would have been a useful tool, back in the day.. (albeit all the while opening the door for rampant censorship)

>>And you did this, how?
>>
>>
>
>
>I DON'T know it. In fact I don't remember seeing if before.  It only occurred with two, no three, threads.  Normally in the past when a post went bold black, that meant the poster has retracted it and it did not affect other posts in the thread.

>What are the odds of eight retractors (the first two bold black threads) all striking on the same day?  The three common posters to the first two threads are Christo, Culling Simples and myself. I didn't retract any.

>A puzzlement.

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 43ee63ba00A-9979-451-07.htm, number 127798, was posted on Fri Apr 28 at 07:31:31
Avoiding having your rudder "beat off"

Guest


www.nytimes.com/2017/04/21/magazine/how-to-avoid-icebergs.html?emc=edit_nn_20170428&nl=morning-briefing&nlid=64484057&te=1&_r=0

Message 6c1413d300A-9979-596+05.htm, number 127799, was posted on Fri Apr 28 at 09:55:40
in reply to 434f071e00A-9977-699-07.htm

Re: POB editors

Don Seltzer


On Wed Apr 26, Curious wrote
----------------------------
>Is anyone aware of a list of editors POB worked with on the various books, particularly The Canon? Am aware of Starling Lawrence's original purchase of US rights, but see no other references to POB editors anywhere.

Richard Ollard of POB's British publisher William Collins was arguably the most influential of POB's editors.  He retired in 1984, replaced by Stuart Proffitt.

On the American side, Woolcott Gibbs at Lippincott was the most important of POB's early editors.  FSOW would later be dedicated to him.


Message 182d672f0Nn-9979-610-90.htm, number 127800, was posted on Fri Apr 28 at 10:09:39
One week box?

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Well, why don't all the postings connected to the thread starter disappear (expire)?  

Why allow posting titles to remain if thread "expires" in a week?

This is what comes of a one-party forum, warped paternalism.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9977-1198+5a.htm, number 127793, was edited on Fri Apr 28 at 10:10:48
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9977-1198+07.htm

The Land of Morning Calm and the Dragon

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/15/kim-jong-un-in-pictures-bizarre-photoshoots-of

Here's one read on the Far East crisis:

US: China, there's a new sheriff in town.  We're not going to send all our manufacturing to you anymore.  You steal proprietary information that contractually you can't touch.  You dump product on the US market destroying US industries.  You mess with the balance of trade.  You mess with your currency.  You make products of US companies and then sell copies of the same products on the gray market.

CHINA:  Can't we just all be friends and keep your ships out of the Pacific so we can steal the Spratlys, Paracels, Pratas, etc., etc.

DPRK:  Yap-yap, yap-yap, nuke, nuke!

US:  China, can't you get a leash on that dog?

CHINA:  US. we'd really, really like to, but we're really consumed with concern about the collapse of our economy and not getting those islands.  We really can't get too serious with this dog with all our problems.  (Kicks dog so he'll bark more.)

DPRK:  Threats, yap-yap.  Parades, yap-yap.   Missile tests, yap-yap.  Incarcerate tourists, yap-yap.  Artillery exercises. Nuke, nuke!

CHINA: Oh dear me.

In sum, China, fearing it is about to lose critical US trade, encourages the DPRK to act up with the hope of winning China concessions if it appears to be a "peacemaker."

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Fri Apr 28 by the author ]


Message aeed033a00A-9979-767+5a.htm, number 127801, was posted on Fri Apr 28 at 12:46:51
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9979-610-90.htm

Re: One week box?

Handful of Tow


Because Cèilidh uses Univ of Minn "Gopher" and
AOL dialup circa 1995?  Probably in 4 bit....

Message 4981ca22cZn-9979-914+05.htm, number 127802, was posted on Fri Apr 28 at 15:14:31
in reply to 46d300f900A-9979-93+05.htm

Thread "rebirth"

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Strange happenings.

I believe that Max is correct.  The original thread had a 1-week life and expired.  Somehow, it was rejuvenated.  

While replying, here, to Max's post, I'm told that this thread will expire on May 3, which is 1 week after Christo's ". . endlessly steaming . ." post.

If I try to reply directly to Christo's post, I'm given a choice of

           Expire in    1 week    1 month    3 months  

as if I were starting a new thread.

Perhaps the timing of Christo's editing, just as the thread was to expire, triggered its rebirth.  I've never seen anything like this before.

Mark


On Fri Apr 28, Max wrote
------------------------
>The first poster checked the one week box on the 18th and on the 25th that post and its replies lapsed.

>Horses not Zebras.
>
>
>
>
>On Thu Apr 27, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>---------------------------------
>>On Wed Apr 26, akatow wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>Methinks that would have been a useful tool, back in the day.. (albeit all the while opening the door for rampant censorship)

>>>And you did this, how?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>I DON'T know it. In fact I don't remember seeing if before.  It only occurred with two, no three, threads.  Normally in the past when a post went bold black, that meant the poster has retracted it and it did not affect other posts in the thread.

>>What are the odds of eight retractors (the first two bold black threads) all striking on the same day?  The three common posters to the first two threads are Christo, Culling Simples and myself. I didn't retract any.

>>A puzzlement.

>>r,

>>Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9979-1192+05.htm, number 127803, was posted on Fri Apr 28 at 19:52:23
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9979-914+05.htm

Re: Thread "rebirth"

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


I have a hard time associating computers with near-religious experiences, except for plagues of course.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-9977-1198+5a.htm, number 127793, was edited on Fri Apr 28 at 19:53:33
The Land of Morning Calm and the Dragon

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/15/kim-jong-un-in-pictures-bizarre-photoshoots-of

Here's one read on the Far East crisis:

US: China, there's a new sheriff in town.  We're not going to send all our manufacturing to you anymore.  You steal proprietary information that contractually you can't touch.  You dump product on the US market destroying US industries.  You mess with the balance of trade.  You mess with your currency.  You make products of US companies and then sell copies of the same products on the gray market.

CHINA:  Can't we just all be friends and keep your ships out of the Pacific so we can steal the Spratlys, Paracels, Pratas, etc., etc.

DPRK:  Yap-yap, yap-yap, nuke, nuke!

US:  China, can't you get a leash on that dog?

CHINA:  US. we'd really, really like to, but we're really consumed with concern about the collapse of our economy and not getting those islands.  We really can't get too serious with this dog with all our problems.  (Kicks dog so he'll bark more.)

DPRK:  Threats, yap-yap.  Parades, yap-yap.   Missile tests, yap-yap.  Incarcerate tourists, yap-yap.  Artillery exercises. Nuke, nuke!

CHINA: Oh dear me.

In sum, China, fearing it is about to lose critical US trade, encourages the DPRK to act up with the hope of winning China concessions if it appears to be a "peacemaker."

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Fri Apr 28 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9980-396-07.htm, number 127804, was posted on Sat Apr 29 at 06:36:10
‘What imaginary line of navigation separates Big Diomede Island and Little Diomede Island?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference. Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780191751394%2E013%2E1847 to find the answer.

Tolerably obscure  unless you come from that part of the world so here’s a clue: Sarah Palin.


Message 50e5a913p13-9980-409+04.htm, number 127805, was posted on Sat Apr 29 at 06:49:30
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9977-597-07.htm

Re: Erasure

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


I have noting to add - I did nothing unusual. Ceilidh is 20 years old and has not been tested with modern browsers for 10 years or more, so they may cause it to do things it shouldn’t.
………………………………………………..
Ceilidh: Collaborative Writing on the Web

Abstract: Two important characteristics of the World Wide Web, which will henceforth be referred to as the Web, are its ease-of-use and the ability of authors to create hyperlinks to other pages. This latter feature especially allows the Web to transcend printed media and gives it the potential to develop as a powerful teaching and learning tool. In order for the Web to realize fully this potential, however, it must progress beyond the ability to display static information.

Ceilidh, an HTTP-based web conferencing engine, promotes use of the Web as a collaborative, text-based, intellectual space by allowing users to create web pages over which they have control. These pages each comprise one component of a threaded list of such pages. By transcending virtually all platform-, server- and browser-dependencies, Ceilidh helps realize the enormous potential of the Web both as a universal collaborative writing environment and as a distance learning tool. We discuss one example of this - how Ceilidh is being used to teach writing at Utah State University English Department.

Hughes, Richard J.*, Shewmake, Jake† and Okelberry, Christopher R.‡, 1998.
archive.li/m3UbB


Message 47e54d5c00A-9980-513+14.htm, number 127806, was posted on Sat Apr 29 at 08:33:18
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9970-1284+1e.htm

Antibiotics and an ancient Anglo-Saxon recipe

Whoreson Beast


www.cnn.com/2015/03/31/health/anglo-saxon-potion-mrsa/index.html

Message 49df0d9bcYC-9980-740+07.htm, number 127807, was posted on Sat Apr 29 at 12:20:41
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9980-396-07.htm

Re: ‘What imaginary line of navigation separates Big Diomede Island and Little Diomede Island?’ . .

Windguy
klcousineau@veriozn.net


On Sat Apr 29, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference. Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780191751394%2E013%2E1847 to find the answer.

>Tolerably obscure  unless you come from that part of the world so here’s a clue: Sarah Palin.

I have sailed between the two islands keeping close watch on the Russian side as we went by, on our way north into the ice.

Windguy


Message 6242b06200A-9981-1299+58.htm, number 127808, was posted on Sun Apr 30 at 21:41:29
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-9979-610-90.htm

Here's an idea.

YA


youtube.com/watch?v=7c6Vrnf99Ac
I never said it was a good idea.
On Fri Apr 28, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>Well, why don't all the postings connected to the thread starter disappear (expire)?  

>Why allow posting titles to remain if thread "expires" in a week?

>This is what comes of a one-party forum, warped paternalism.

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 47e54d5c00A-9981-1369-07.htm, number 127809, was posted on Sun Apr 30 at 22:49:38
Is it time to offer Longwood House on St Helena to Kim Jong-un ?

Whoreson Beast


I'm sure Her Majesty's Navy will offer a suitable Frigate for transportation to honored strongman exile.

Maybe he'll adopt a Flag with a Roach Rampant on a field of crushed peasants with anti-aircraft guns as tamgha sinister.

What is the Latin for "In the land of the starving, the Fat Little Man is a gouty king"


Message 50e5a913p13-9983-722-07.htm, number 127810, was posted on Tue May 2 at 12:02:30
Test1

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


qq

Message 4747f4808HW-9983-1250+11.htm, number 127811, was posted on Tue May 2 at 20:50:23
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9970-742-30.htm

Re: Off-topic: Antibiotics and resistance thereto

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


So far I see no rebuttal to my original suspicion:  If there are grounds for believing that antibiotics cause resistance to antibiotics, they aren't mentioned in this thread.

Nothing Jan said contradicted me (and as far as I can tell she wasn't trying to, unless she misunderstood my question).  Mark Henry linked to an article that apparently tried to contradict me, but it failed:  In the section entitled "How Resistance Happens and Spreads", the entire paragraph says only this:

The use of antibiotics is the single most important factor leading to antibiotic resistance around the world.  Simply using antibiotics creates resistance.  These drugs should only be used to manage infections."
In other words, it makes the assertion, but doesn't back it up.  No one else addressed the question.

I intended to point this out much sooner but (sorry, Mark) I wrote most of it and then temporarily lost my internet connection before completing it, and didn't have the heart to attempt it again until today.  Are there any other contenders?  I'm still hoping someone can point to something definitive one way or the other.  Jan, did you miss my point or are you agreeing with me?

On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 50e5a913p13-9984-435+10.htm, number 127812, was posted on Wed May 3 at 07:15:37
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9983-1250+11.htm

The 2 levels of discourse: disease vs. microbe

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


That ‘antibiotics cause resistance to antibiotics’ is correct at the disease level of discourse but not at the microbe level. This doesn’t seem to me hard to grasp.

Resistance at the disease level can only arise if within the varied population of the microbe there are some that can neutralise the antibiotic, usually by using enzymes to decompose it into harmless waste. There is an energy cost to this so such microbes are at a disadvantage in competition with their fellows if there is no or little antibiotic. Alternatively they may add the genes for this enzyme to their genome from other bacteria that already have it. This gene swapping goes on all the time but we only notice it when it has an effect at our level of discourse.

When the whole population is challenged by the antibiotic, the neutralisers win out and expand as the others are killed off. It is normal, natural and correct to say the antibiotic has caused the resistance.

This is the general  picture off the top of my head - I am not a biologist and I haven’t troubled to look it up or check it out as I regard it as general knowledge - evidently quite wrongly. I’m sure that if you delve into wikipedia you’ll find it all there.

There is of course a third level of discourse: the chemistry of the antibiotic effect.
…………………………….
On Tue May 2, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>So far I see no rebuttal to my original suspicion:  If there are grounds for believing that antibiotics cause resistance to antibiotics, they aren't mentioned in this thread.

>Nothing Jan said contradicted me (and as far as I can tell she wasn't trying to, unless she misunderstood my question).  Mark Henry linked to an article that apparently tried to contradict me, but it failed:  In the section entitled "How Resistance Happens and Spreads", the entire paragraph says only this:

The use of antibiotics is the single most important factor leading to antibiotic resistance around the world.  Simply using antibiotics creates resistance.  These drugs should only be used to manage infections."
In other words, it makes the assertion, but doesn't back it up.  No one else addressed the question.

>I intended to point this out much sooner but (sorry, Mark) I wrote most of it and then temporarily lost my internet connection before completing it, and didn't have the heart to attempt it again until today.  Are there any other contenders?  I'm still hoping someone can point to something definitive one way or the other.  Jan, did you miss my point or are you agreeing with me?

>On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 47e54d5c00A-9984-811-07.htm, number 127813, was posted on Wed May 3 at 13:31:22
New Arctic shipping routes 2015-2060

Handful of tow


www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/03/science/earth/arctic-s

Message 43dc04a200A-9984-1315+04.htm, number 127814, was posted on Wed May 3 at 21:54:57
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9981-1369-07.htm

Re: Is it time to offer Longwood House on St Helena to Kim Jong-un ?

Latin


In fame pereo terra, et homo est, modicum generosi rex aeger

Message 47e54d5c00A-9985-431-07.htm, number 127815, was posted on Thu May 4 at 07:11:13
The Battle of Coral Sea 75 years later.

Whoreson Beast


en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Coral_Sea

In other news, Trump to meet with Turnbull, will lament the necessity of the War in the absence of a better negotiator, Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson to be mentioned....


Message 4981ca22cZn-9986-875+0e.htm, number 127816, was posted on Fri May 5 at 14:37:10
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9983-1250+11.htm

Re^2: Off-topic: Antibiotics and resistance thereto

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Bob,

"Simply using antibiotics creates resistance" is from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, certainly a respected authority.  Another quote from the same source is, "Bacteria will inevitably find ways of resisting the antibiotics developed by humans, . . ."

Both of the links that I provided in my earlier post are quite basic.  If you want more, there's plenty on the Internet.  

In any case, I believe that your explanation of how a small minority of antibiotic resistant microbes becomes a majority when the non-resistant microbes are killed off is essentially correct.  What you seem to have missed is how the resistant bacteria arise in the first place.  They don't necessarily already exist in nature.  

From my second link:

Bacteria can also acquire resistance. This happens when a type of bacteria changes in a way that protects it from the antibiotic. Bacteria can acquire resistance in two ways: either through a new genetic change that helps the bacterium survive, or by getting DNA from a bacterium that is already resistant.

Jan addressed this in her reply -- "Random mutations happen in nature ALL THE TIME.  They especially happen in populations of organisms which reproduce their numbers in the billions."

So, among a huge population of microbes, as a result of a random mutation, a single microbe will appear that is resistant to antibiotic X.  It's a new organism, slightly different from all of its relatives, but it did not acquire this resistance in response to X, whether X was present or not.  It will multiply and/or share its DNA with other microbes, thus creating a small colony of microbes that are resistant to X.  If X is present, initially or applied later, this small minority of resistant microbes very well may become the majority when its non-resistant cousins are killed off, as you described.  Its becoming a majority is in response to X and, if present in huge numbers, it is more likely to be transferred to other individuals and thus spread.

Here's a much more technical article on mutations and antibiotic resistance:  
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89960/

To anyone doubting Darwin, this is evolution happening before our eyes -- natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc.  

Mark



On Tue May 2, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>So far I see no rebuttal to my original suspicion:  If there are grounds for believing that antibiotics cause resistance to antibiotics, they aren't mentioned in this thread.

>Nothing Jan said contradicted me (and as far as I can tell she wasn't trying to, unless she misunderstood my question).  Mark Henry linked to an article that apparently tried to contradict me, but it failed:  In the section entitled "How Resistance Happens and Spreads", the entire paragraph says only this:

The use of antibiotics is the single most important factor leading to antibiotic resistance around the world.  Simply using antibiotics creates resistance.  These drugs should only be used to manage infections."
In other words, it makes the assertion, but doesn't back it up.  No one else addressed the question.

>I intended to point this out much sooner but (sorry, Mark) I wrote most of it and then temporarily lost my internet connection before completing it, and didn't have the heart to attempt it again until today.  Are there any other contenders?  I'm still hoping someone can point to something definitive one way or the other.  Jan, did you miss my point or are you agreeing with me?

>On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 47e54d5c00A-9986-1113-07.htm, number 127817, was posted on Fri May 5 at 18:33:30
"Dunkirk" 7/21

Whoreson Beast


www.dunkirkmovie.com

Message 4747f4808HW-9986-1119+0e.htm, number 127818, was posted on Fri May 5 at 18:41:59
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9986-875+0e.htm

Re^3: Off-topic: Antibiotics and resistance thereto

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'll get around to looking at that more technical article after a packed weekend—or at least I have ambitions of looking at it :-)—but for now let me snap out a reply that may not hold up once you argue further:

The CDC presumably deserves my respect, or at any rate they have it.  But their bare assertion, against plain reason and without explanation, carries little weight by itself.  Nothing here explains the claim that bacteria become resistant to an antibiotic in response to the antibiotic itself—indeed you seem to be denying it yourself.  If you're citing Darwinism, the very heart of Darwinist theory is that the changes occur randomly; they would occur with or without being exposed to antibiotics.  (If someone wants to argue that widespread use of antibiotics causes resistance thereto, they pretty much have to argue intelligent design, that is, some intelligence makes changes in bacterial DNA in order to combat antibiotics.)  But as for me, I'm assuming that these changes are random, and it sounds like you agree.

You say you agree with my original description, so if we're in accord on that then the only point of disagreement I can see is whether it's reasonable to say "use of antibiotics causes antibiotic resistance".  I don't see how it is, but if you agree with me about the underlying facts but think this description isn't misleading, I'm not sure what else I can usefully say about it.

On Fri May 5, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>"Simply using antibiotics creates resistance" is from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, certainly a respected authority.  Another quote from the same source is, "Bacteria will inevitably find ways of resisting the antibiotics developed by humans, . . ."

>Both of the links that I provided in my earlier post are quite basic.  If you want more, there's plenty on the Internet.  

>In any case, I believe that your explanation of how a small minority of antibiotic resistant microbes becomes a majority when the non-resistant microbes are killed off is essentially correct.  What you seem to have missed is how the resistant bacteria arise in the first place.  They don't necessarily already exist in nature.  

>From my second link:

>Bacteria can also acquire resistance. This happens when a type of bacteria changes in a way that protects it from the antibiotic. Bacteria can acquire resistance in two ways: either through a new genetic change that helps the bacterium survive, or by getting DNA from a bacterium that is already resistant.

>Jan addressed this in her reply -- "Random mutations happen in nature ALL THE TIME.  They especially happen in populations of organisms which reproduce their numbers in the billions."

>So, among a huge population of microbes, as a result of a random mutation, a single microbe will appear that is resistant to antibiotic X.  It's a new organism, slightly different from all of its relatives, but it did not acquire this resistance in response to X, whether X was present or not.  It will multiply and/or share its DNA with other microbes, thus creating a small colony of microbes that are resistant to X.  If X is present, initially or applied later, this small minority of resistant microbes very well may become the majority when its non-resistant cousins are killed off, as you described.  Its becoming a majority is in response to X and, if present in huge numbers, it is more likely to be transferred to other individuals and thus spread.

>Here's a much more technical article on mutations and antibiotic resistance:  
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89960/

>To anyone doubting Darwin, this is evolution happening before our eyes -- natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc.  

>On Tue May 2, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>So far I see no rebuttal to my original suspicion:  If there are grounds for believing that antibiotics cause resistance to antibiotics, they aren't mentioned in this thread.

>>Nothing Jan said contradicted me (and as far as I can tell she wasn't trying to, unless she misunderstood my question).  Mark Henry linked to an article that apparently tried to contradict me, but it failed:  In the section entitled "How Resistance Happens and Spreads", the entire paragraph says only this:

The use of antibiotics is the single most important factor leading to antibiotic resistance around the world.  Simply using antibiotics creates resistance.  These drugs should only be used to manage infections."
In other words, it makes the assertion, but doesn't back it up.  No one else addressed the question.

>>I intended to point this out much sooner but (sorry, Mark) I wrote most of it and then temporarily lost my internet connection before completing it, and didn't have the heart to attempt it again until today.  Are there any other contenders?  I'm still hoping someone can point to something definitive one way or the other.  Jan, did you miss my point or are you agreeing with me?

>>On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>>>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>>>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>>>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 50e5a913p13-9987-420+06.htm, number 127819, was posted on Sat May 6 at 06:59:52
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9986-1113-07.htm

‘ . . WArare not won bby evacuations . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The foundingmyth of the ‘British people’ = the Brexiteers:

Message 4981ca22cZn-9987-477+0d.htm, number 127820, was posted on Sat May 6 at 07:57:50
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9986-1119+0e.htm

Antibiotics and resistance thereto

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Bob -- I believe that we are in agreement.  My reading on the subject leads me to believe that the statement, "use of antibiotics causes antibiotic resistance" is, indeed, somewhat misleading.  The cause appears to be indirect and a better statement might be "use of antibiotics eventually results in antibiotic resistance."  This is essentially identical to the other quote I posted from the article, "Bacteria will inevitably find ways of resisting the antibiotics developed by humans, . . ."  (It's quite likely that the writer of the CDC article was not a scientist.)

The technical paper to which I linked discusses stressed populations which tend to have increased mutation rates.  So, a bacterial colony being stressed by an anti-bacterial might mutate more rapidly and a resistant bacteria would have a greater chance of appearing but, as I understand it, the mutations are still random and not directly targeting the antibiotic.

Mark


On Fri May 5, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>I'll get around to looking at that more technical article after a packed weekend—or at least I have ambitions of looking at it :-)—but for now let me snap out a reply that may not hold up once you argue further:

>The CDC presumably deserves my respect, or at any rate they have it.  But their bare assertion, against plain reason and without explanation, carries little weight by itself.  Nothing here explains the claim that bacteria become resistant to an antibiotic in response to the antibiotic itself—indeed you seem to be denying it yourself.  If you're citing Darwinism, the very heart of Darwinist theory is that the changes occur randomly; they would occur with or without being exposed to antibiotics.  (If someone wants to argue that widespread use of antibiotics causes resistance thereto, they pretty much have to argue intelligent design, that is, some intelligence makes changes in bacterial DNA in order to combat antibiotics.)  But as for me, I'm assuming that these changes are random, and it sounds like you agree.

>You say you agree with my original description, so if we're in accord on that then the only point of disagreement I can see is whether it's reasonable to say "use of antibiotics causes antibiotic resistance".  I don't see how it is, but if you agree with me about the underlying facts but think this description isn't misleading, I'm not sure what else I can usefully say about it.

>On Fri May 5, Mark Henry wrote
>------------------------------
>>"Simply using antibiotics creates resistance" is from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, certainly a respected authority.  Another quote from the same source is, "Bacteria will inevitably find ways of resisting the antibiotics developed by humans, . . ."

>>Both of the links that I provided in my earlier post are quite basic.  If you want more, there's plenty on the Internet.  

>>In any case, I believe that your explanation of how a small minority of antibiotic resistant microbes becomes a majority when the non-resistant microbes are killed off is essentially correct.  What you seem to have missed is how the resistant bacteria arise in the first place.  They don't necessarily already exist in nature.  

>>From my second link:

>>Bacteria can also acquire resistance. This happens when a type of bacteria changes in a way that protects it from the antibiotic. Bacteria can acquire resistance in two ways: either through a new genetic change that helps the bacterium survive, or by getting DNA from a bacterium that is already resistant.

>>Jan addressed this in her reply -- "Random mutations happen in nature ALL THE TIME.  They especially happen in populations of organisms which reproduce their numbers in the billions."

>>So, among a huge population of microbes, as a result of a random mutation, a single microbe will appear that is resistant to antibiotic X.  It's a new organism, slightly different from all of its relatives, but it did not acquire this resistance in response to X, whether X was present or not.  It will multiply and/or share its DNA with other microbes, thus creating a small colony of microbes that are resistant to X.  If X is present, initially or applied later, this small minority of resistant microbes very well may become the majority when its non-resistant cousins are killed off, as you described.  Its becoming a majority is in response to X and, if present in huge numbers, it is more likely to be transferred to other individuals and thus spread.

>>Here's a much more technical article on mutations and antibiotic resistance:  
>>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89960/

>>To anyone doubting Darwin, this is evolution happening before our eyes -- natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc.  

>>On Tue May 2, Bob Bridges wrote
>>-------------------------------
>>>So far I see no rebuttal to my original suspicion:  If there are grounds for believing that antibiotics cause resistance to antibiotics, they aren't mentioned in this thread.

>>>Nothing Jan said contradicted me (and as far as I can tell she wasn't trying to, unless she misunderstood my question).  Mark Henry linked to an article that apparently tried to contradict me, but it failed:  In the section entitled "How Resistance Happens and Spreads", the entire paragraph says only this:

The use of antibiotics is the single most important factor leading to antibiotic resistance around the world.  Simply using antibiotics creates resistance.  These drugs should only be used to manage infections."
In other words, it makes the assertion, but doesn't back it up.  No one else addressed the question.

>>>I intended to point this out much sooner but (sorry, Mark) I wrote most of it and then temporarily lost my internet connection before completing it, and didn't have the heart to attempt it again until today.  Are there any other contenders?  I'm still hoping someone can point to something definitive one way or the other.  Jan, did you miss my point or are you agreeing with me?

>>>On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>--------------------------------
>>>>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>>>>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>>>>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>>>>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 6bd5c1a400A-9987-754-07.htm, number 127821, was posted on Sat May 6 at 12:34:15
A Very Good Read!

Lee Shore


My thanks to formumites for recommending A Gentleman In Moscow by Amor Towles. Just finished reading it.  Had a long wait, 26 ahead of me at my library, but it was worth it.  It's been a while since I had a book I could not put down.  I wanted to rush through it but did not want it to end.  Thank you again.  Do you also recommend Rules Of Civility?

Message 182d672f0Nn-9987-896+01.htm, number 127822, was posted on Sat May 6 at 14:56:16
in reply to 43dc04a200A-9984-1315+04.htm

Hangugo

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Wed May 3, Latin wrote
-------------------------
>In fame pereo terra, et homo est, modicum generosi rex aeger

Of course if you want your curse to be understood by the object of derision:

굶주리기의 땅에서는, 뚱뚱한 작은 남자는 통풍 임금이다

No hanja were used here because the North Koreans, unlike the South Koreans, do not employ Chinese pictograms.

r.

Caltrop


Message 47e54d5c00A-9987-967-07.htm, number 127823, was posted on Sat May 6 at 16:06:46
Mauritius-Africa's money spot

Whoreson Beast


www.cnn.com/2017/05/05/africa/africa-wealth-report/?iid=ob_homepage_showcase_pool-test

Message adff84738YV-9987-1416+0d.htm, number 127824, was posted on Sat May 6 at 23:38:31
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-9987-477+0d.htm

Re: Wait, so are we just talking about semantics here?

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


No, the antibiotics themselves do not cause resistance. They are just the instrument which clears a niche for the naturally occurring resistant bacteria to flourish. They do not cause mutations.

This IS natural selection at work; I was going to suggest Darwin but I was trying to keep it simple.

This is one of those examples they give you in Bio 101 - There's a forest of birch trees with a population of black moths and a population of white months.  Birds are easily able to spot the resting black moths against the white bark of the birch trees, and eat them almost to extinction.  Then the Industrial Revolution happens. The smoke from the coal-burning engines and furnaces coats the bark of the birch trees in the forest and now the bark appears dark grey.  The black moths are well hidden against the darkened bark and their  population increases exponentially.  The white moths are easily distinguishable now and the birds decimate the white moth population.

See?  (I've got another scenario that involves aliens if you need more clarification)

On Sat May 6, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>Bob -- I believe that we are in agreement.  My reading on the subject leads me to believe that the statement, "use of antibiotics causes antibiotic resistance" is, indeed, somewhat misleading.  The cause appears to be indirect and a better statement might be "use of antibiotics eventually results in antibiotic resistance."  This is essentially identical to the other quote I posted from the article, "Bacteria will inevitably find ways of resisting the antibiotics developed by humans, . . ."  (It's quite likely that the writer of the CDC article was not a scientist.)

>The technical paper to which I linked discusses stressed populations which tend to have increased mutation rates.  So, a bacterial colony being stressed by an anti-bacterial might mutate more rapidly and a resistant bacteria would have a greater chance of appearing but, as I understand it, the mutations are still random and not directly targeting the antibiotic.

>Mark
>
>
>On Fri May 5, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>I'll get around to looking at that more technical article after a packed weekend—or at least I have ambitions of looking at it :-)—but for now let me snap out a reply that may not hold up once you argue further:

>>The CDC presumably deserves my respect, or at any rate they have it.  But their bare assertion, against plain reason and without explanation, carries little weight by itself.  Nothing here explains the claim that bacteria become resistant to an antibiotic in response to the antibiotic itself—indeed you seem to be denying it yourself.  If you're citing Darwinism, the very heart of Darwinist theory is that the changes occur randomly; they would occur with or without being exposed to antibiotics.  (If someone wants to argue that widespread use of antibiotics causes resistance thereto, they pretty much have to argue intelligent design, that is, some intelligence makes changes in bacterial DNA in order to combat antibiotics.)  But as for me, I'm assuming that these changes are random, and it sounds like you agree.

>>You say you agree with my original description, so if we're in accord on that then the only point of disagreement I can see is whether it's reasonable to say "use of antibiotics causes antibiotic resistance".  I don't see how it is, but if you agree with me about the underlying facts but think this description isn't misleading, I'm not sure what else I can usefully say about it.

>>On Fri May 5, Mark Henry wrote
>>------------------------------
>>>"Simply using antibiotics creates resistance" is from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, certainly a respected authority.  Another quote from the same source is, "Bacteria will inevitably find ways of resisting the antibiotics developed by humans, . . ."

>>>Both of the links that I provided in my earlier post are quite basic.  If you want more, there's plenty on the Internet.  

>>>In any case, I believe that your explanation of how a small minority of antibiotic resistant microbes becomes a majority when the non-resistant microbes are killed off is essentially correct.  What you seem to have missed is how the resistant bacteria arise in the first place.  They don't necessarily already exist in nature.  

>>>From my second link:

>>>Bacteria can also acquire resistance. This happens when a type of bacteria changes in a way that protects it from the antibiotic. Bacteria can acquire resistance in two ways: either through a new genetic change that helps the bacterium survive, or by getting DNA from a bacterium that is already resistant.

>>>Jan addressed this in her reply -- "Random mutations happen in nature ALL THE TIME.  They especially happen in populations of organisms which reproduce their numbers in the billions."

>>>So, among a huge population of microbes, as a result of a random mutation, a single microbe will appear that is resistant to antibiotic X.  It's a new organism, slightly different from all of its relatives, but it did not acquire this resistance in response to X, whether X was present or not.  It will multiply and/or share its DNA with other microbes, thus creating a small colony of microbes that are resistant to X.  If X is present, initially or applied later, this small minority of resistant microbes very well may become the majority when its non-resistant cousins are killed off, as you described.  Its becoming a majority is in response to X and, if present in huge numbers, it is more likely to be transferred to other individuals and thus spread.

>>>Here's a much more technical article on mutations and antibiotic resistance:  
>>>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89960/

>>>To anyone doubting Darwin, this is evolution happening before our eyes -- natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc.  

>>>On Tue May 2, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>-------------------------------
>>>>So far I see no rebuttal to my original suspicion:  If there are grounds for believing that antibiotics cause resistance to antibiotics, they aren't mentioned in this thread.

>>>>Nothing Jan said contradicted me (and as far as I can tell she wasn't trying to, unless she misunderstood my question).  Mark Henry linked to an article that apparently tried to contradict me, but it failed:  In the section entitled "How Resistance Happens and Spreads", the entire paragraph says only this:

The use of antibiotics is the single most important factor leading to antibiotic resistance around the world.  Simply using antibiotics creates resistance.  These drugs should only be used to manage infections."
In other words, it makes the assertion, but doesn't back it up.  No one else addressed the question.

>>>>I intended to point this out much sooner but (sorry, Mark) I wrote most of it and then temporarily lost my internet connection before completing it, and didn't have the heart to attempt it again until today.  Are there any other contenders?  I'm still hoping someone can point to something definitive one way or the other.  Jan, did you miss my point or are you agreeing with me?

>>>>On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>>--------------------------------
>>>>>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>>>>>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>>>>>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>>>>>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 591e316400A-9989-148+05.htm, number 127825, was posted on Mon May 8 at 02:28:34
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-9987-754-07.htm

Re: A Very Good Read!

NiceRedTrousers


Hear him, hear him!

I'm about 3/4 of the way through the book after the same recommendation.  Again there was a waiting list at the library, but worth it!

NRT


On Sat May 6, Lee Shore wrote
-----------------------------
>My thanks to formumites for recommending A Gentleman In Moscow by Amor Towles. Just finished reading it.  Had a long wait, 26 ahead of me at my library, but it was worth it.  It's been a while since I had a book I could not put down.  I wanted to rush through it but did not want it to end.  Thank you again.  Do you also recommend Rules Of Civility?


Message 50e5a913p13-9989-343+04.htm, number 127819, was edited on Mon May 8 at 05:43:18
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9987-420+06.htm

‘ . . Wars are not won by evacuations . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The founding myth of the ‘British people’ = the Brexiteers:

[ This message was edited on Mon May 8 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9989-346+04.htm, number 127819, was edited on Mon May 8 at 05:46:05
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9989-343+04.htm

‘ . . Wars are not won by evacuations . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The founding myth of the ‘British people’ = the Brexiteers:
”>

[ This message was edited on Mon May 8 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-9989-358+04.htm, number 127819, was edited on Mon May 8 at 05:58:35
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-9989-346+04.htm

‘ . . Wars are not won by evacuations . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


”>

The founding myth of the ‘British people’ = the Brexiteers:
 photo Weeks1.jpg

[ This message was edited on Mon May 8 by the author ]


Message 182d672f0Nn-9989-732-90.htm, number 127826, was posted on Mon May 8 at 12:12:31
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9976-781+00.htm

The Incredible Shrinking Thread

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Which will last longer, the carriers on station in Westpack or the Ceilidh thread?

r,

Caltrop


Message 47e54d5c00A-9989-868-07.htm, number 127827, was posted on Mon May 8 at 14:28:05
Washed away Irish beach reappears after 33 years.

Whoreson Beast


www.cnn.com/2017/05/08/travel/dooagh-beach-achill-island-ireland/index.html

Message 4747f4808HW-9990-675+03.htm, number 127828, was posted on Tue May 9 at 11:15:21
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9989-358+04.htm

"...a colossal military disaster..."

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I don't get it.  I heard Churchill's speech with interest, but what connection does Dunkirk have with Brexit?

On Mon May 8, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>”>

>The founding myth of the ‘British people’ = the Brexiteers:
> photo Weeks1.jpg


Message 4747f4808HW-9990-706+0a.htm, number 127829, was posted on Tue May 9 at 11:45:58
in reply to adff84738YV-9987-1416+0d.htm

Maybe so.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Sure, I'm familiar with the moth-on-the-bark example.  But maybe I haven't fully appreciated what competition may exist between bacteria that consume the same resources.

You speak of "clearing a niche"; apparently you're saying that if I use antibiotics to kill off non-resistant bacteria, the resistant ones can reproduce more freely than if I had not.  This makes sense (as far as I can see) only if the strains are actively killing each other or else competing for limited resources.  I was arguing under the belief that neither condition pertains.

I've been thinking of a human body as an essentially endless supply of nutrients.  One bacterium, twenty, twenty million, they can all eat freely without "competing" in the sense of any unit taking what another would have needed to thrive.  That is, the numbers would have to get a lot higher before there began to be any lack.  Am I wrong about that?

On Sat May 6, akatow wrote
--------------------------
>No, the antibiotics themselves do not cause resistance. They are just the instrument which clears a niche for the naturally occurring resistant bacteria to flourish. They do not cause mutations.

>This IS natural selection at work; I was going to suggest Darwin but I was trying to keep it simple.

>This is one of those examples they give you in Bio 101 - There's a forest of birch trees with a population of black moths and a population of white months.  Birds are easily able to spot the resting black moths against the white bark of the birch trees, and eat them almost to extinction.  Then the Industrial Revolution happens. The smoke from the coal-burning engines and furnaces coats the bark of the birch trees in the forest and now the bark appears dark grey.  The black moths are well hidden against the darkened bark and their  population increases exponentially.  The white moths are easily distinguishable now and the birds decimate the white moth population.

>See?  (I've got another scenario that involves aliens if you need more clarification)

>On Sat May 6, Mark Henry wrote
>------------------------------
>>Bob -- I believe that we are in agreement.  My reading on the subject leads me to believe that the statement, "use of antibiotics causes antibiotic resistance" is, indeed, somewhat misleading.  The cause appears to be indirect and a better statement might be "use of antibiotics eventually results in antibiotic resistance."  This is essentially identical to the other quote I posted from the article, "Bacteria will inevitably find ways of resisting the antibiotics developed by humans, . . ."  (It's quite likely that the writer of the CDC article was not a scientist.)

>>The technical paper to which I linked discusses stressed populations which tend to have increased mutation rates.  So, a bacterial colony being stressed by an anti-bacterial might mutate more rapidly and a resistant bacteria would have a greater chance of appearing but, as I understand it, the mutations are still random and not directly targeting the antibiotic.

>>On Fri May 5, Bob Bridges wrote
>>-------------------------------
>>>I'll get around to looking at that more technical article after a packed weekend—or at least I have ambitions of looking at it :-)—but for now let me snap out a reply that may not hold up once you argue further:

>>>The CDC presumably deserves my respect, or at any rate they have it.  But their bare assertion, against plain reason and without explanation, carries little weight by itself.  Nothing here explains the claim that bacteria become resistant to an antibiotic in response to the antibiotic itself—indeed you seem to be denying it yourself.  If you're citing Darwinism, the very heart of Darwinist theory is that the changes occur randomly; they would occur with or without being exposed to antibiotics.  (If someone wants to argue that widespread use of antibiotics causes resistance thereto, they pretty much have to argue intelligent design, that is, some intelligence makes changes in bacterial DNA in order to combat antibiotics.)  But as for me, I'm assuming that these changes are random, and it sounds like you agree.

>>>You say you agree with my original description, so if we're in accord on that then the only point of disagreement I can see is whether it's reasonable to say "use of antibiotics causes antibiotic resistance".  I don't see how it is, but if you agree with me about the underlying facts but think this description isn't misleading, I'm not sure what else I can usefully say about it.

>>>On Fri May 5, Mark Henry wrote
>>>------------------------------
>>>>"Simply using antibiotics creates resistance" is from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, certainly a respected authority.  Another quote from the same source is, "Bacteria will inevitably find ways of resisting the antibiotics developed by humans, . . ."

>>>>Both of the links that I provided in my earlier post are quite basic.  If you want more, there's plenty on the Internet.  

>>>>In any case, I believe that your explanation of how a small minority of antibiotic resistant microbes becomes a majority when the non-resistant microbes are killed off is essentially correct.  What you seem to have missed is how the resistant bacteria arise in the first place.  They don't necessarily already exist in nature.  

>>>>From my second link:

>>>>Bacteria can also acquire resistance. This happens when a type of bacteria changes in a way that protects it from the antibiotic. Bacteria can acquire resistance in two ways: either through a new genetic change that helps the bacterium survive, or by getting DNA from a bacterium that is already resistant.

>>>>Jan addressed this in her reply -- "Random mutations happen in nature ALL THE TIME.  They especially happen in populations of organisms which reproduce their numbers in the billions."

>>>>So, among a huge population of microbes, as a result of a random mutation, a single microbe will appear that is resistant to antibiotic X.  It's a new organism, slightly different from all of its relatives, but it did not acquire this resistance in response to X, whether X was present or not.  It will multiply and/or share its DNA with other microbes, thus creating a small colony of microbes that are resistant to X.  If X is present, initially or applied later, this small minority of resistant microbes very well may become the majority when its non-resistant cousins are killed off, as you described.  Its becoming a majority is in response to X and, if present in huge numbers, it is more likely to be transferred to other individuals and thus spread.

>>>>Here's a much more technical article on mutations and antibiotic resistance:  
>>>>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89960/

>>>>To anyone doubting Darwin, this is evolution happening before our eyes -- natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc.  

>>>>On Tue May 2, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>>-------------------------------
>>>>>So far I see no rebuttal to my original suspicion:  If there are grounds for believing that antibiotics cause resistance to antibiotics, they aren't mentioned in this thread.

>>>>>Nothing Jan said contradicted me (and as far as I can tell she wasn't trying to, unless she misunderstood my question).  Mark Henry linked to an article that apparently tried to contradict me, but it failed:  In the section entitled "How Resistance Happens and Spreads", the entire paragraph says only this:

The use of antibiotics is the single most important factor leading to antibiotic resistance around the world.  Simply using antibiotics creates resistance.  These drugs should only be used to manage infections."
In other words, it makes the assertion, but doesn't back it up.  No one else addressed the question.

>>>>>I intended to point this out much sooner but (sorry, Mark) I wrote most of it and then temporarily lost my internet connection before completing it, and didn't have the heart to attempt it again until today.  Are there any other contenders?  I'm still hoping someone can point to something definitive one way or the other.  Jan, did you miss my point or are you agreeing with me?

>>>>>On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>>>--------------------------------
>>>>>>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>>>>>>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>>>>>>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>>>>>>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 4747f4808HW-9990-712-30.htm, number 127830, was posted on Tue May 9 at 11:52:10
Separate question about mutations in bacteria

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Coïcidentally, the weather here in NC unexpectedly turned cool again a week or so ago and is projected to continue cool for a while longer.  I've long observed that when the weather changes, either hot or cold, sicknesses abound, mostly ordinary colds as far as I can tell.  I just started a sore throat late yesterday, so it's on my mind.

But I got to thinking: My body, I gather, is able mostly to protect me from organisms it's encountered in the past; it's the new mutations that I catch.  Right?  So how does this match up to the observation that sicknesses increase when the weather changes?  Are we to believe that new bacteria appear at such times?  And if so, why?


Message 182d672f0Nn-9990-869+03.htm, number 127831, was posted on Tue May 9 at 14:29:33
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9989-358+04.htm

Re: ‘ . . Wars are not won by evacuations . . '

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


No, but a successful evacuation can buoy morale and allow warriors to fight another day.

MacArthur's "I shall return" would have had more punch if he could have said, "we shall return."

The withdrawal from the Chosin Reservoir and Hungnam evacuation are regarded as tactical successes on this side of the pond.

Sometimes you can't afford to throw good money after bad.  Sometimes  -- at the time -- you don't have any money to throw at all.

r,

Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-9991-397+02.htm, number 127832, was posted on Wed May 10 at 06:37:05
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9990-675+03.htm

Dunkirk, Bond and all that: the Brexit myth of British exceptionalism

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The connection, like the ‘Special Relationship’ is invisible to most but alive and well in the minds of those who believe in it:

Claims about Britain’s past were made regularly in the referendum debate. But claims about Britain’s historical place in the world – courageously standing alone, being outnumbered and outgunned but in the end outperforming everyone – are not based on fact, writes Mike Finn*. Yet many thought they could revive this mythical, exceptionalist past by voting to Leave. They are likely to be disappointed.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/08/23/dunkirk-bond-and-all-that-the-brexit-myth-of-british-exceptionalism/

See also:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12173650/The-spirit-of-Dunkirk-will-see-us-thrive-outside-the-EU.html
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/678915/War-hero-Britain-EU-referendum-Brexit-supports
reaction.life/defence-dunkirk-british-amateurism/

* an Irishman probably and therefore inoculated against this particular illusion.


Message 47e54d5c00A-9991-420-07.htm, number 127833, was posted on Wed May 10 at 07:00:16
Plastic in your sea salt?

Whoreson Beast


httpe://qz.com/979101/sea-salt-is-likely-to-contain-microparticles-of-plastic-according-to-a-new-study/

Message 4747f4808HW-9991-591+02.htm, number 127834, was posted on Wed May 10 at 09:51:24
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9991-397+02.htm

"No, no, no"

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


<quarrelsome>The articles you cite mention the word "Dunkirk", but none of them try to show a connection to it from Brexit.  (I'm not counting the headline writers' contributions.)  The second one is not about Dunkirk itself but merely about standing alone "after the defeat at Dunkirk".  The last one rebuts the connection to Dunkirk, against "...my ultra-Remainer friends in the media who are so obsessed about other people being obsessed by the War that they are always the first to mention it".

I'm guessing that's the real connection, ie only in the minds of those who want to refute it.  Oh, I don't doubt that if you try again you'll be able to find an article that really does argue that one headline ("The spirit of Dunkirk will see us thrive outside the EU").  But it apparently isn't widespread.</quarrelsome>

On Wed May 10, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>The connection, like the ‘Special Relationship’ is invisible to most but alive and well in the minds of those who believe in it:

>Claims about Britain’s past were made regularly in the referendum debate. But claims about Britain’s historical place in the world – courageously standing alone, being outnumbered and outgunned but in the end outperforming everyone – are not based on fact, writes Mike Finn*. Yet many thought they could revive this mythical, exceptionalist past by voting to Leave. They are likely to be disappointed.

>blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/08/23/dunkirk-bond-and-all-that-the-brexit-myth-of-british-exceptionalism/

>See also:

>www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12173650/The-spirit-of-Dunkirk-will-see-us-thrive-outside-the-EU.html
>www.express.co.uk/news/uk/678915/War-hero-Britain-EU-referendum-Brexit-supports
>reaction.life/defence-dunkirk-british-amateurism/

>* an Irishman probably and therefore inoculated against this particular illusion.


Message 50e5a913p13-9991-797-07.htm, number 127835, was posted on Wed May 10 at 13:17:13
Which ‘hot spot archipelago’ includes the undersea volcano Loihi?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Find the answer at www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780199766444.001.0001/acref-9780199766444-e-3158

Easy-peasy for some forumites - tolerably hard for many others


Message 47e54d5c00A-9992-414-07.htm, number 127836, was posted on Thu May 11 at 06:54:16
Self driving(sic) electric ship

Whoreson Beast


qz.com/980207/a-self-driving-electric-ship-will-replace-thousands-of-truck-trips-at-yara-a-norwegian-fertilizer-firm/?utm_source=qzfb

Message 47e54d5c00A-9992-418+06.htm, number 127837, was posted on Thu May 11 at 06:57:52
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9991-797-07.htm

Semi related....

Handful of Tow


www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/05/11/lava-waves-sweep-across-jupiter-moon-ios-massive-molten-lake.html

Message 4747f4808HW-9992-836+07.htm, number 127838, was posted on Thu May 11 at 13:55:56
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9992-414-07.htm

"Zero-emissions"?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I take it there's a canal or river between the plant and the port?

I'm not against the goal of zero emissions—if such a thing is possible even theoretically—but this all-electric vessel is surely not that.  As many folks have rhetorically asked before, how do they think the electricity is being produced?

(That doesn't make this a bad idea.  I'm just picking nits with the Quartz writer.)

On Thu May 11, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>qz.com/980207/a-self-driving-electric-ship-will-replace-thousands-of-truck-trips-at-yara-a-norwegian-fertilizer-fi


Message 4747f4808HW-9992-850+06.htm, number 127839, was posted on Thu May 11 at 14:10:38
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9992-418+06.htm

Re: Semi related....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


This article is really interesting, if you like such things (and I do).  But I don't see an answer to one of the first questions that occurred to me:  What is this "lava" made of?

The article uses all the words that we habitually associate on earth with molten rock: "volcano", "lava", "molten", "patera", "magma".  But if it flows at -3°C to 56°C, it can't be anything like our rock.  Yet at those temperatures it not only flows but incandesces as well, so it isn't just one of the substances more common out there, eg water or (I think) ammonia.  Anyone know?  Or am I misreading something?

On Thu May 11, Handful of Tow wrote
-----------------------------------
>www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/05/11/lava-waves-sweep-across-jupiter-moon-ios-massive-molten-lake.html


Message 50e5a913p13-9992-1190+07.htm, number 127840, was posted on Thu May 11 at 19:50:20
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9992-836+07.htm

Water power

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu May 11, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
. . how do they think the electricity is being produced?

I have no doubt that every Norwegian school student learns from an early age that electricity is produced by running water through turbines - as 99 % of theirs is.

www.statkraft.com/energy-sources/hydropower/


Message 6242bba700A-9992-1278+06.htm, number 127841, was posted on Thu May 11 at 21:18:07
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9992-850+06.htm

Re^2: Semi related....

YA


Read the paragraphs that follow. Long story short, the deltaT you quote is not temperature of flowing magma, but evidence the direction taken when the previous crusty bit on top overtuned. I can see documentary footage of the phenomenon on earth in my mind's eye,  but first page of Google video search doesn't yield what I want. But here's a video of the subject at hand:

youtube.com/watch?v=QbBqTezTjHg


And to your first question, io lava is usually basalt,but sometimes sulfur or sulfur dioxide. So sayeth wikipedia.


On Thu May 11, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>This article is really interesting, if you like such things (and I do).  But I don't see an answer to one of the first questions that occurred to me:  What is this "lava" made of?

>The article uses all the words that we habitually associate on earth with molten rock: "volcano", "lava", "molten", "patera", "magma".  But if it flows at -3°C to 56°C, it can't be anything like our rock.  Yet at those temperatures it not only flows but incandesces as well, so it isn't just one of the substances more common out there, eg water or (I think) ammonia.  Anyone know?  Or am I misreading something?

>On Thu May 11, Handful of Tow wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/05/11/lava-waves-sweep-across-jupiter-moon-ios-massive-molten-lake.html


Message 47e54d5c00A-9993-447-07.htm, number 127842, was posted on Fri May 12 at 07:27:00
"An Albatross Census From Space"

Whoreson Beast


www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/05/space-birdwatching/526044/

Message 6c1413d300A-9993-650-07.htm, number 127843, was posted on Fri May 12 at 10:50:10
CiC on US naval technology

Don Seltzer


Jack Aubrey would not countenance any discussion of politics among the officers in the gunroom, but a discussion of naval technology would likely be considered within bounds.

Treading a narrow path, I refer the forum to this article in Navy Times.

www.navytimes.com/articles/trump-says-navy-should-ditch-carrier-emals


Message 50e5a913p13-9993-807+07.htm, number 127844, was posted on Fri May 12 at 13:27:14
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9992-836+07.htm

Water power

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu May 11, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
. . how do they think the electricity is being produced?

I have no doubt that every Norwegian school student learns from an early age that electricity is produced by running water through turbines - as 99 % of theirs is.

www.statkraft.com/energy-sources/hydropower/


Message 50e5a913p13-9993-809+06.htm, number 127845, was posted on Fri May 12 at 13:29:00
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9992-414-07.htm

Which it’s not a ship but a barge:

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘ship, n.1 Common Germanic . .
1. a. (a) A large sea-going vessel (opposed to a boat) . .

except in law:

. . c. In legal enactments often with greatly extended application, as in the following quot. 1870:

1870 Act 33 & 34 Vict. c. 90 §30 ‘Ship’ shall include any description of boat, vessel, floating battery, or floating craft; also any description of boat, vessel, or other craft or battery, made to move either on the surface of or under water, or sometimes on the surface of and sometimes under water.’

vs.

‘barge, n.1 Old French . .
. . 2. A flat-bottomed freight-boat, chiefly for canal- and river-navigation, either with or without sails: in the latter case also called a lighter . .
. . 1769 W. Falconer Universal Dict. Marine sig. E3v, Barge, is also the name of a flat-bottomed vessel of burthen, for lading and discharging ships.
1842 Tennyson Lady of Shalott (rev. ed.) i, in Poems (new ed.) I. 78 By the margin, willow-veil'd, Slide the heavy barges trail'd . . ‘

(OED)


Message 50e5a913p13-9993-849+07.htm, number 127846, was posted on Fri May 12 at 14:09:04
in reply to 6c1413d300A-9993-650-07.htm

Experts? Who needs ‘em

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


A phrase that POB used to stem the flow of gushing praise from an effusive fan: “Madam, please consider how much your opinion is worth”. This has stuck in my mind as a useful caution to encourage me to keep silent about matters I have no knowledge of.

I recommend it to your C-in-C, who reminds me of a British politician, until recently a cabinet minister, who asserted that we had enough of experts and would get on better with out them:
 photo 26809-yfhdpw_1.jpg”></a><P>[<A href=www.ft.com/content/3be49734-29cb-11e6-83e4-abc22d5d108c]


Message 3261e5f58YV-9993-988+07.htm, number 127847, was posted on Fri May 12 at 16:29:31
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9990-706+0a.htm

Re: Don't say I didn't warn you....

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


It is a bright sunny day on planet Earth.  Suddenly,(!) a fleet of alien space ships appear in our sunny skies and start spewing forth a unending stream of a toxic chemical into our atmosphere: all who inhale the chemical, die.  Initially there are some survivors; people who have fled to underground bunkers with a stored air supply, but eventually even those segregated systems fail and its occupants die.  Except...

for a population that carry a genetically transmissible, randomly mutated, recessive gene on chromosome 16.  Yes - it's the Gingers.

In the beginning, even their progeny from cross breeding with humans with a more dominant gene profile survive for awhile, but none of them can successfully reproduce, and that genetic line dies out too, leaving only those humans who carry a matched mutated gene set.

Immune to the only weapon the aliens have against the human species, the mutant red-heads multiply, and after several million generations destroy the alien ships and wipe out their home planet as well.

The End.
 

Bacteria (in vivo) thrive and overgrow when they are successful in resisting the host's attempts to eliminate them - their success depends on their ability to reproduce.

A food supply is a good thing have, but it is meaningless when successful reproduction is not an option.


On Tue May 9, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Sure, I'm familiar with the moth-on-the-bark example.  But maybe I haven't fully appreciated what competition may exist between bacteria that consume the same resources.

>You speak of "clearing a niche"; apparently you're saying that if I use antibiotics to kill off non-resistant bacteria, the resistant ones can reproduce more freely than if I had not.  This makes sense (as far as I can see) only if the strains are actively killing each other or else competing for limited resources.  I was arguing under the belief that neither condition pertains.

>I've been thinking of a human body as an essentially endless supply of nutrients.  One bacterium, twenty, twenty million, they can all eat freely without "competing" in the sense of any unit taking what another would have needed to thrive.  That is, the numbers would have to get a lot higher before there began to be any lack.  Am I wrong about that?

>On Sat May 6, akatow wrote
>--------------------------
>>No, the antibiotics themselves do not cause resistance. They are just the instrument which clears a niche for the naturally occurring resistant bacteria to flourish. They do not cause mutations.

>>This IS natural selection at work; I was going to suggest Darwin but I was trying to keep it simple.

>>This is one of those examples they give you in Bio 101 - There's a forest of birch trees with a population of black moths and a population of white months.  Birds are easily able to spot the resting black moths against the white bark of the birch trees, and eat them almost to extinction.  Then the Industrial Revolution happens. The smoke from the coal-burning engines and furnaces coats the bark of the birch trees in the forest and now the bark appears dark grey.  The black moths are well hidden against the darkened bark and their  population increases exponentially.  The white moths are easily distinguishable now and the birds decimate the white moth population.

>>See?  (I've got another scenario that involves aliens if you need more clarification)

>>On Sat May 6, Mark Henry wrote
>>------------------------------
>>>Bob -- I believe that we are in agreement.  My reading on the subject leads me to believe that the statement, "use of antibiotics causes antibiotic resistance" is, indeed, somewhat misleading.  The cause appears to be indirect and a better statement might be "use of antibiotics eventually results in antibiotic resistance."  This is essentially identical to the other quote I posted from the article, "Bacteria will inevitably find ways of resisting the antibiotics developed by humans, . . ."  (It's quite likely that the writer of the CDC article was not a scientist.)

>>>The technical paper to which I linked discusses stressed populations which tend to have increased mutation rates.  So, a bacterial colony being stressed by an anti-bacterial might mutate more rapidly and a resistant bacteria would have a greater chance of appearing but, as I understand it, the mutations are still random and not directly targeting the antibiotic.

>>>On Fri May 5, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>-------------------------------
>>>>I'll get around to looking at that more technical article after a packed weekend—or at least I have ambitions of looking at it :-)—but for now let me snap out a reply that may not hold up once you argue further:

>>>>The CDC presumably deserves my respect, or at any rate they have it.  But their bare assertion, against plain reason and without explanation, carries little weight by itself.  Nothing here explains the claim that bacteria become resistant to an antibiotic in response to the antibiotic itself—indeed you seem to be denying it yourself.  If you're citing Darwinism, the very heart of Darwinist theory is that the changes occur randomly; they would occur with or without being exposed to antibiotics.  (If someone wants to argue that widespread use of antibiotics causes resistance thereto, they pretty much have to argue intelligent design, that is, some intelligence makes changes in bacterial DNA in order to combat antibiotics.)  But as for me, I'm assuming that these changes are random, and it sounds like you agree.

>>>>You say you agree with my original description, so if we're in accord on that then the only point of disagreement I can see is whether it's reasonable to say "use of antibiotics causes antibiotic resistance".  I don't see how it is, but if you agree with me about the underlying facts but think this description isn't misleading, I'm not sure what else I can usefully say about it.

>>>>On Fri May 5, Mark Henry wrote
>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>"Simply using antibiotics creates resistance" is from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, certainly a respected authority.  Another quote from the same source is, "Bacteria will inevitably find ways of resisting the antibiotics developed by humans, . . ."

>>>>>Both of the links that I provided in my earlier post are quite basic.  If you want more, there's plenty on the Internet.  

>>>>>In any case, I believe that your explanation of how a small minority of antibiotic resistant microbes becomes a majority when the non-resistant microbes are killed off is essentially correct.  What you seem to have missed is how the resistant bacteria arise in the first place.  They don't necessarily already exist in nature.  

>>>>>From my second link:

>>>>>Bacteria can also acquire resistance. This happens when a type of bacteria changes in a way that protects it from the antibiotic. Bacteria can acquire resistance in two ways: either through a new genetic change that helps the bacterium survive, or by getting DNA from a bacterium that is already resistant.

>>>>>Jan addressed this in her reply -- "Random mutations happen in nature ALL THE TIME.  They especially happen in populations of organisms which reproduce their numbers in the billions."

>>>>>So, among a huge population of microbes, as a result of a random mutation, a single microbe will appear that is resistant to antibiotic X.  It's a new organism, slightly different from all of its relatives, but it did not acquire this resistance in response to X, whether X was present or not.  It will multiply and/or share its DNA with other microbes, thus creating a small colony of microbes that are resistant to X.  If X is present, initially or applied later, this small minority of resistant microbes very well may become the majority when its non-resistant cousins are killed off, as you described.  Its becoming a majority is in response to X and, if present in huge numbers, it is more likely to be transferred to other individuals and thus spread.

>>>>>Here's a much more technical article on mutations and antibiotic resistance:  
>>>>>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89960/

>>>>>To anyone doubting Darwin, this is evolution happening before our eyes -- natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc.  

>>>>>On Tue May 2, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>>>-------------------------------
>>>>>>So far I see no rebuttal to my original suspicion:  If there are grounds for believing that antibiotics cause resistance to antibiotics, they aren't mentioned in this thread.

>>>>>>Nothing Jan said contradicted me (and as far as I can tell she wasn't trying to, unless she misunderstood my question).  Mark Henry linked to an article that apparently tried to contradict me, but it failed:  In the section entitled "How Resistance Happens and Spreads", the entire paragraph says only this:

The use of antibiotics is the single most important factor leading to antibiotic resistance around the world.  Simply using antibiotics creates resistance.  These drugs should only be used to manage infections."
In other words, it makes the assertion, but doesn't back it up.  No one else addressed the question.

>>>>>>I intended to point this out much sooner but (sorry, Mark) I wrote most of it and then temporarily lost my internet connection before completing it, and didn't have the heart to attempt it again until today.  Are there any other contenders?  I'm still hoping someone can point to something definitive one way or the other.  Jan, did you miss my point or are you agreeing with me?

>>>>>>On Wed Apr 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>>>>--------------------------------
>>>>>>>It occurs to me that someone here may be able to answer a question I've had running through my head for a few years now.  We're told that we shouldn't use antibiotics too freely, because they lead to the proliferation of organisms that are resistant to them.  It seems to me that this must be a misunderstanding.

>>>>>>>To be sure, antibiotics kill off organism that are not resistant, and fail to kill off those that are, and as a direct result the resistant organisms are a higher percentage of the total over time.  But the antibiotics didn't create the resistance, nor increase the numbers of the resistant organisms.

>>>>>>>Put it this way:  Let's say you start with 100 resistant bacteria and 2000 non-resistant ones.  At the end of a certain period of time they would multiply by a factor of (say) a million, at which point you'd have 100 million resistant bacteria and 2 billion non-resistant.  Or, if you use antibiotics freely, you have 90 million resistant bacteria (assuming they're slightly susceptible to antibiotics) and 200 thousand non-resistant (assuming you can't get 'em all).  So sure, the percentage of resistance went from 4.8% to 99.8%, but you're still better off by having eliminated 95.7% of the target organisms.

>>>>>>>So can someone, akatow or someone, tell me what I'm missing?


Message 3261e5f58YV-9993-1220+1b.htm, number 127848, was posted on Fri May 12 at 20:21:34
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9990-712-30.htm

Re: No...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Bob, I think you could benefit from taking a basic microbiology class - it would answer many questions for you.  Humans should come with an owners manual.

"colds" in the main are not of bacterial origin, they are viral.  Most of us here are of an age where we have been vaccinated against (or have access to vaccines for), or actually survived  the most common lethal viruses,(polio, smallpox, diptheria, measles, chickenpox {the herpes family}, petussis, yellow fever, now maybe even Ebola and Malaria, but

1)there are a gajillion viruses out there as they mutate fairly quickly (Swine flu, anyone?)
2) we are still learning about them - we have some antivirals, but at this stage they are still more symptom relievers than 'cures'.
3)viruses can live in your body for your entire life. (sorry!)

Two fairly common viruses are rhinoviruses (aka the 'common'cold) and noroviruses (stomach flu), both of these may be easily 'caught' by the virus becoming aerosolized.  The droplets in a sneeze can travel something like 20 feet...

In the winter - centralized hot air ...virus carrier.  In the Spring/Summer - open windows improve air circulation ...and carry viruses.  

Additionally, many people have environmental allergies (dust mites, hay fever, molds, grasses, trees, pollen and flowers) that activate your immune system and give you symptoms similar to a 'cold'.  Sadly, the body has a finite number of immune responses and can not tell you exactly why you have a sore throat.

The bacteria that live in your body (and there are, once again, a gajillion of them) do not need to 'mutate' to make you ill, they just need an opportunity to proliferate to numbers more than your immune system can handle, or be transported to an environment that doesn't have resources against them.  

Escherichia coli (e.coli to most people) lives in your colon and makes lots of Vitamin K to help you clot when you get a boo-boo, and then is evacuated from your body. Its a symbiotic relationship.  If it ever gets in your blood stream, it has a good chance of killing you.



On Tue May 9, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Coïcidentally, the weather here in NC unexpectedly turned cool again a week or so ago and is projected to continue cool for a while longer.  I've long observed that when the weather changes, either hot or cold, sicknesses abound, mostly ordinary colds as far as I can tell.  I just started a sore throat late yesterday, so it's on my mind.

>But I got to thinking: My body, I gather, is able mostly to protect me from organisms it's encountered in the past; it's the new mutations that I catch.  Right?  So how does this match up to the observation that sicknesses increase when the weather changes?  Are we to believe that new bacteria appear at such times?  And if so, why?


Message 6242bb6d00A-9993-1253+1b.htm, number 127849, was posted on Fri May 12 at 20:56:13
in reply to 3261e5f58YV-9993-1220+1b.htm

Re^2: No...

YA


Might I suggest www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9p4nrTJcd0  . Haven't seen it myself, but it's on great courses plus,so it's probably good, and we all have subscriptions to gcp, right? Right?



On Fri May 12, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Bob, I think you could benefit from taking a basic microbiology class - it would answer many questions for you.  Humans should come with an owners manual.


Message 3261e5f58YV-9993-1270+1b.htm, number 127850, was posted on Fri May 12 at 21:09:46
in reply to 6242bb6d00A-9993-1253+1b.htm

Re^3: Yeah, no

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Seems a tad more fraught with hyperbole than I remember my classes.



On Fri May 12, YA wrote
-----------------------
>Might I suggest www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9p4nrTJcd0  . Haven't seen it myself, but it's on great courses plus,so it's probably good, and we all have subscriptions to gcp, right? Right?
>
>
>
>On Fri May 12, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>Bob, I think you could benefit from taking a basic microbiology class - it would answer many questions for you.  Humans should come with an owners manual.

>


Message 6242bb6d00A-9993-1289+07.htm, number 127851, was posted on Fri May 12 at 21:29:01
in reply to 3261e5f58YV-9993-988+07.htm

Re^2: Don't say I didn't warn you....

YA


Planet of redheads, you say? Hnnnnn.... But seriously, it's like you fed  war of the worlds and battlefield earth into the shredder and glued the pages back together, sort of. Well done.

Message 465fd3f38YV-9994-1173+06.htm, number 127852, was posted on Sat May 13 at 19:33:24
in reply to 6c1413d300A-9993-650-07.htm

Re: CiC on US naval technology

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Clueless people should not be making policy decisions, but it seems to be a trend.

In the newly built hospital I used to work at, the designers included a whiz bang $1million 'boom' in the trauma resuscitation area.  It had all the gizmos and doodads you could ever want to use on a trauma patient.  Just one problem...the boom took up so much room that you couldn't reach the patient.  Looked spiffy though.  They did something similar in the CT scanner, but that was MUCH more expensive to fix.

On Fri May 12, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>Jack Aubrey would not countenance any discussion of politics among the officers in the gunroom, but a discussion of naval technology would likely be considered within bounds.

>Treading a narrow path, I refer the forum to this article in Navy Times.

>www.navytimes.com/articles/trump-says-navy-should-ditch-carrier-emals


Message 50e5a913p13-9995-753+04.htm, number 127853, was posted on Sun May 14 at 12:33:07
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9992-414-07.htm

A sea-going ship it is!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



The vessel “Yara Birkeland” will be the world’s first fully electric and autonomous container ship, with zero emissions. KongsberGruppen will integrate sensor, control, communication and electrical systems.

Operation is planned to start in the latter half of 2018, shipping products from YARA’s Porsgrunn production plant to Brevik and Larvik in Norway.
 photo Screen Shot 2017-05-14 at 17.19.05.png  photo Screen Shot 2017-05-14 at 17.20.21.png
[www.maritime-executive.com/article/autonomous-zero-emissions-ship-planned-for-2020]


Message 90a0625f00A-9995-808+05.htm, number 127854, was posted on Sun May 14 at 13:28:41
in reply to 465fd3f38YV-9994-1173+06.htm

Re^2: CiC on US naval technology

YA


I've been hearing many things about Marie Curie. Great things, wonderful things. Marie Curie is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is getting recognized more and more, I notice.


On Sat May 13, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Clueless people should not be making policy decisions, but it seems to be a trend.

>In the newly built hospital I used to work at, the designers included a whiz bang $1million 'boom' in the trauma resuscitation area.  It had all the gizmos and doodads you could ever want to use on a trauma patient.  Just one problem...the boom took up so much room that you couldn't reach the patient.  Looked spiffy though.  They did something similar in the CT scanner, but that was MUCH more expensive to fix.

>On Fri May 12, Don Seltzer wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Jack Aubrey would not countenance any discussion of politics among the officers in the gunroom, but a discussion of naval technology would likely be considered within bounds.

>>Treading a narrow path, I refer the forum to this article in Navy Times.

>>www.navytimes.com/articles/trump-says-navy-should-ditch-carrier-emals


Message 6ca8e32c8YV-9995-832+05.htm, number 127855, was posted on Sun May 14 at 13:52:31
in reply to 90a0625f00A-9995-808+05.htm

Re^3:LOL!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


She's doing an really really great job, a glowing example for all, considering her current  yugely disadvantageous position.

Yes, she and the CT scanner suffered from the same lack of coverage.


On Sun May 14, YA wrote
-----------------------
>I've been hearing many things about Marie Curie. Great things, wonderful things. Marie Curie is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is getting recognized more and more, I notice.
>
>
>On Sat May 13, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>Clueless people should not be making policy decisions, but it seems to be a trend.

>>In the newly built hospital I used to work at, the designers included a whiz bang $1million 'boom' in the trauma resuscitation area.  It had all the gizmos and doodads you could ever want to use on a trauma patient.  Just one problem...the boom took up so much room that you couldn't reach the patient.  Looked spiffy though.  They did something similar in the CT scanner, but that was MUCH more expensive to fix.

>>On Fri May 12, Don Seltzer wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>Jack Aubrey would not countenance any discussion of politics among the officers in the gunroom, but a discussion of naval technology would likely be considered within bounds.

>>>Treading a narrow path, I refer the forum to this article in Navy Times.

>>>www.navytimes.com/articles/trump-says-navy-should-ditch-carrier-emals


Message 4747f4808HW-9995-834-90.htm, number 127856, was posted on Sun May 14 at 13:54:34
Gunnery, Cochrane, Peter Weir, medicine and more

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I should think everyone here has already seen it, but I don't think I've heard mention of it myself so maybe not.  I just encountered a 45-minute YouTube video, about Master and Commander and comparing it to the actual period and situations.  They talk about medicine and amputations, splinters in combat, gunnery, disguising ships, the constructions of the USS Constitution, Lord Cochrane and much more.  Very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NConxlRNwg#t=178.044625


Message 4747f4808HW-9996-680+02.htm, number 127857, was posted on Mon May 15 at 11:20:37
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-9991-420-07.htm

Why not?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Some random comments:

"Estimates vary, but there’s no doubt the amount of plastic now in the oceans is substantial: one 2014 study found that there are more than 5 trillion plastic pieces sharing the seas with marine life...."  Meaningless.  At a quick calculation that's one plastic piece per every quarter billion liters of sea water—which doesn't tell us a thing because most of it is probably either lying on the bottom or floating near the top.  "5 trillion" doesn't tell us anything except that the writer thinks of it as a big number.

"Just in case mercury concentrations weren’t enough to show us the consequences of a fish-eat-fish world...."  No need, I'm sure, to point out in this forum how dangerous plastic is compared to mercury.  But there's one interesting word in here: "concentration".  Does plastic accumulate in the body like, say, arsenic?  Anyone know?

"Researchers tested 16 sea-salt brands from eight countries to see if they could identify any foreign particles in their makeup. They dissolved the salt in water and examined what remained: a total of 72 particles. Of those, 30 were confirmed as plastic, 17 as pigment that once belonged to plastic, four as dust. Twenty one particles could not be identified."  I could wish the writer had said more.  72 particles for what weight of salt?  If they bought one table-sized shaker of each brand, this seems to come to about three plastic microparticles per bottle...but it's only a guess.

"The 16 salt brands came from Australia, France, Iran, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Portugal, and South Africa. Only the one from France wasn’t found to be contaminated with plastic."  Fascinating.  What is France doing different?  Where are they getting their sea salt (or their sea water) from?

"The concentration of the particles found in sea salt and sea food today is low enough that it likely won’t affect your health."  What would the health effects be?  I mean, I can easily imagine eating so many tiny plastic pieces that they clog up my innards mechanically.  But I assume what's meant here are chemical effects, what happens when the plastics are broken down into other products by my digestive system, which products do...what, to my body?  Has this been studied?

"Erik van Sebille, an oceanographer at Utrecht University who studies ocean circulation and plastic pollution, told Hakai the findings, while shocking, weren’t unexpected."  What does Erik van Sebille imagine that "shocking" means, I wonder?

On Wed May 10, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>httpe://qz.com/979101/sea-salt-is-likely-to-contain-microparticles-of-plastic-according-to-a-new-study/


Message d8503bde00A-9996-884-07.htm, number 127858, was posted on Mon May 15 at 14:44:16
Yellow Fever - back and bad as Zika

Whoreson Beast


www.nytimes.com/20

Message 50e5a913p13-9997-414+01.htm, number 127859, was posted on Tue May 16 at 06:53:36
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9996-680+02.htm

If you care about the purity of your salt . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . get it from a salt mine:

Message 182d672f0Nn-9997-695+06.htm, number 127860, was posted on Tue May 16 at 11:34:42
in reply to d8503bde00A-9996-884-07.htm

(yawn) And then too, there's Chikungunya and Dengue fever...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


...no shots, not cure.

Must have been a slow day at the Times.  Didn't anyone remind the science staff what the Times' agenda was?

Poor Alinsky, an opportunity lost.

r,

Caltrop


Message 6b4d593dwd5-9997-802-90.htm, number 127861, was posted on Tue May 16 at 13:21:55
Narwhale News

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Not a unicorn!

newatlas.com/drone-footage-narwhal-tusk/49524/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=a5302064c7-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-a5302064c7-91925469


Message d8503bde00A-9997-807-07.htm, number 127862, was posted on Tue May 16 at 13:26:57
Brig vs. locked in bilboes

Whoreson Beast


foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-is-what-the-jail-on-an-aircraft-carrier-looks-like-1795236092

Message 6ca8e32c8YV-9997-931+07.htm, number 127863, was posted on Tue May 16 at 15:31:30
in reply to d8503bde00A-9997-807-07.htm

Re:

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


I believe the expression 'ever-so-cromulent Nimitz is incromulent.  I have seen the Nimitz and there's nothing spurious about it.

On Tue May 16, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-is-what-the-jail-on-an-aircraft-carrier-looks-like-1795236092


Message aedd004d00A-9997-1010-07.htm, number 127864, was posted on Tue May 16 at 16:50:36
Sweeting's Island today?

Whoreson Beast


www.nbcnews.com/news/world/henderson-island-38m-pieces-trash-washed-ashore-pacific-ocean-n759926

Message 56003e26cb5-9997-1277-07.htm, number 127865, was posted on Tue May 16 at 21:17:18
You may recall that Jack wanted a house overlooking the sea...

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



Well, so did I, and I bought one. But traffic in the Baltic isn't what it was in the days of the Hanseatic League. Never mind, there's still the occasional freighter. Here it is:

Google Photos album of a house on Gotland


Message 47e54d5c00A-9997-1404-07.htm, number 127866, was posted on Tue May 16 at 23:23:41
"Sir, he says he will be happy to throw it for you; and hopes you will encourage him with a tot of rum"

Cultural Appropriation


www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/fashion/chanel-boomerang-cultural-appropriati

Message 68cdaea6gpf-9998-40+06.htm, number 127867, was posted on Wed May 17 at 00:40:17
in reply to 56003e26cb5-9997-1277-07.htm

Re: You may recall that Jack wanted a house overlooking the sea...

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Wish you joy of your purchase, Frenchie. My goodness, Gotland! Out there! (Says the guy who lives in northern Alberta)
The empty interior shots remind me of the item on Jeopardy tonight, for which the question was: 'What is minimalism?'

On Tue May 16, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>Well, so did I, and I bought one. But traffic in the Baltic isn't what it was in the days of the Hanseatic League. Never mind, there's still the occasional freighter. Here it is:

>Google Photos album of a house on Gotland


Message 182d672f0Nn-9998-436+05.htm, number 127860, was edited on Wed May 17 at 07:16:09
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-9997-695+06.htm

(yawn) And then too, there's Chikungunya and Dengue fever...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


...no shots, no cure.

Must have been a slow day at the Times.  Didn't anyone remind the science staff what the Times' agenda was?

Poor Alinsky, an opportunity lost.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed May 17 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-9998-460+06.htm, number 127868, was posted on Wed May 17 at 07:39:48
in reply to 56003e26cb5-9997-1277-07.htm

Re: You may recall that Jack wanted a house overlooking the sea...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'm interested by the contrast between the appearance of the two sides of the house: so plain facing the road, so attractive—so beautiful—facing the sea.  The opposite of what I instinctively expect, assuming that the road side is the "front" of the house.

That's a lot of glass; I wish you may not have too much trouble heating the place in the winter.

Sure is beautiful.

On Tue May 16, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>Well, so did I, and I bought one. But traffic in the Baltic isn't what it was in the days of the Hanseatic League. Never mind, there's still the occasional freighter. Here it is:

>Google Photos album of a house on Gotland


Message 44654cc700A-9999-115+05.htm, number 127869, was posted on Thu May 18 at 01:55:05
in reply to 56003e26cb5-9997-1277-07.htm

Re: You may recall that Jack wanted a house overlooking the sea...

A-Polly


It's beautiful — congratulations!  When should we show up for the forum housewarming?

...and if I may be so bold (and nosy) to ask, what steered you toward Gotland?


On Tue May 16, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>Well, so did I, and I bought one. But traffic in the Baltic isn't what it was in the days of the Hanseatic League. Never mind, there's still the occasional freighter. Here it is:

>Google Photos album of a house on Gotland


Message 50e5a913p13-9999-323-0.htm, number 127870, was posted on Thu May 18 at 05:22:57
‘In meteorology what conditions are required to produce a williwaw?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference; visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E2684 to find the answer.

Message acdeb5a800A-9999-809-0.htm, number 127871, was posted on Thu May 18 at 13:29:23
Summation of Trump by conservative inner circle in NYT

Max


Conservative New York Times columnist Ross Douthat sums up the situation aptly:

Read the things that these people, members of his inner circle, his personally selected appointees, say daily through anonymous quotations to the press. (And I assure you they say worse off the record.) They have no respect for him, indeed they seem to palpate with contempt for him, and to regard their mission as equivalent to being stewards for a syphilitic emperor.


Message 50e5a913p13-9999-1182-0.htm, number 127872, was posted on Thu May 18 at 19:42:13
in reply to acdeb5a800A-9999-809-0.htm

Link

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu May 18, Max wrote
------------------------
>>Conservative New York Times columnist Ross Douthat sums up the situation aptly:

>Read the things that these people, members of his inner circle, his personally selected appointees, say daily through anonymous quotations to the press. (And I assure you they say worse off the record.) They have no respect for him, indeed they seem to palpate with contempt for him, and to regard their mission as equivalent to being stewards for a syphilitic emperor.

www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/opinion/25th-amendment-trump.html


Message 56003e26cb5-9999-1213+00.htm, number 127873, was posted on Thu May 18 at 20:13:10
in reply to 68cdaea6gpf-9998-40+06.htm

Re^2: You may recall that Jack wanted a house overlooking the sea...

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


On Wed May 17, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Wish you joy of your purchase, Frenchie. My goodness, Gotland! Out there! (Says the guy who lives in northern Alberta)
>The empty interior shots remind me of the item on Jeopardy tonight, for which the question was: 'What is minimalism?'

Thank you! The current owner has never really lived in it, so the furniture is indeed rather minimalist. We are furnishing it from scratch from (where else?) IKEA. It will look a bit more comfy after that, although we won't let it get cluttered up. The idea is to be able to rent it out when we're not there.


Message 56003e26cb5-9999-1222+00.htm, number 127874, was posted on Thu May 18 at 20:21:52
in reply to 4747f4808HW-9998-460+06.htm

Re^2: You may recall that Jack wanted a house overlooking the sea...

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


On Wed May 17, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I'm interested by the contrast between the appearance of the two sides of the house: so plain facing the road, so attractive—so beautiful—facing the sea.  The opposite of what I instinctively expect, assuming that the road side is the "front" of the house.

>That's a lot of glass; I wish you may not have too much trouble heating the place in the winter.

>Sure is beautiful.

Thank you. The original house consisted of a tiny little cottage with only three rooms: a kitchen, a small nook for eating in, and an adjacent bedroom. No bathroom. Even to this day a number of Swedish summer houses only have an outhouse ("a jakes, or privy?"). Since then it has been expanded considerably, adding the living room, upstairs, glassed-in "veranda" (the former porch), and bathroom. The deck is also new.

It's all triple-glazed with argon in between the panes. The heating is done by a heat pump, electric oil-filled radiators, underfloor heating (popular in Sweden), and the two stoves, one of which heat-recapturing. A lot of firewood comes with the property. We'll have to see about what it's like in winter, but I'm fairly confident. If not, we'll supplement with little electric floor fan heaters.


Message 56003e26cb5-9999-1233+00.htm, number 127875, was posted on Thu May 18 at 20:33:13
in reply to 44654cc700A-9999-115+05.htm

Re^2: You may recall that Jack wanted a house overlooking the sea...

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


On Thu May 18, A-Polly wrote
----------------------------
>It's beautiful — congratulations!  When should we show up for the forum housewarming?

>...and if I may be so bold (and nosy) to ask, what steered you toward Gotland?

Thank you! The housewarming will be in about three weeks.

I'm a senior lecturer at the Uppsala University Campus Gotland. My appointment there is part-time, but I'm planning to increase my contribution from about 50% to 66%. We got tired of paying exorbitant rents and decided to buy a place that we could rent out ourselves in the summers. Gotland is sort of the Hawaii of Sweden, a hugely popular tourist destination, and just about everyone on the island who owns real estate rents it out to visitors if they can.


Message 47e54d5c00A-10000-449-07.htm, number 127876, was posted on Fri May 19 at 07:28:50
Syphilis cases on the rise worldwide

Whoreson Beast


qz.com/984705/syphilis-is-on-the-rise-because-penicillin-isnt-profitable/

Message 47e54d5c00A-10000-496-07.htm, number 127877, was posted on Fri May 19 at 08:15:55
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9999-1182-0.htm

Unfortunately, "Malignant Narcissism" is not considered "Incapacitating"

Non-deplorable



when your Cabinet is filled with Goldman Saks Übermensch.

Message 182d672f0Nn-10000-597-07.htm, number 127878, was posted on Fri May 19 at 09:57:07
in reply to acdeb5a800A-9999-809-0.htm

Apparently...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


...Trump Derangement Syndrome is incurable.

Group hysteria gives victims the delusionary sense that incessant ad hominem attacks are the key to curing their unfair loss.

One symptom is the can let go of the thought that Trump couldn't have won since the polls they paid attention to could NOT have been wrong.

So how do they console themselves in a manner that still heightens the hysteria?  By grasping at polls, anecdotal reports, and rumors.

Maxine Waters say the chant "Lock her up, locker her up," came directly from Putin.  Still waiting for that evidence.

Always fun to post in a one-party forum.

r,

Caltrop


Message 182d672f0Nn-10000-599+07.htm, number 127878, was edited on Fri May 19 at 09:59:30
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-10000-597-07.htm

Apparently...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


...Trump Derangement Disorder (TDD) is incurable.

Group hysteria gives victims the delusionary sense that incessant ad hominem attacks are the key to curing their unfair loss.

One symptom is the can let go of the thought that Trump couldn't have won since the polls they paid attention to could NOT have been wrong.

So how do they console themselves in a manner that still heightens the hysteria?  By grasping at polls, anecdotal reports, and rumors.

Maxine Waters say the chant "Lock her up, locker her up," came directly from Putin.  Still waiting for that evidence.

Always fun to post in a one-party forum.  They guy gets things moving.  That's what really heightens TDD.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Fri May 19 by the author ]


Message 182d672f0Nn-10000-701+07.htm, number 127878, was edited on Fri May 19 at 11:40:59
and replaces message 182d672f0Nn-10000-599+07.htm

Apparently...

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


...Trump Derangement Disorder (TDD) is incurable.

Group hysteria gives victims the delusionary sense that incessant ad hominem attacks are the key to curing their "unfair" loss.

One symptom is they can't let go of the thought that Trump couldn't have won since the polls they paid attention to could NOT have been wrong.

So how do they console themselves in a manner that still heightens the hysteria?  By grasping at polls, anecdotal reports, and rumors.

Maxine Waters says the chant "Lock her up, locker her up," came directly from Putin.  Still waiting for that evidence.

Always fun to post in a one-party forum.  

This guy gets things moving.  Sadly, that's what really heightens TDD.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Fri May 19 by the author ]


Message 3261d7808YV-10001-705+06.htm, number 127879, was posted on Sat May 20 at 11:45:07
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-10000-449-07.htm

Re: Syphilis cases on the rise worldwide

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


And locally too!



"In the five years from 2005 to 2009, the number of reported cases of syphilis and chlamydia among those 55 and older increased 43 percent, according to an Orlando Sentinel analysis of data provided by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

In the Sunbelt where retirees have formed large communities, the rise was even more dramatic.

For instance, in Arizona's Maricopa and Pima counties — home to large retirement communities just outside Phoenix — the percent of reported cases of syphilis and chlamydia increased twice as fast as the national average from 2005 to 2009. Reported cases were up 87 percent among those 55 and older in those counties.

In Central Florida, where The Villages and other retirement communities sprawl across several counties, reported cases of syphilis and chlamydia increased 71 percent among those 55 and older in that same period. And South Florida saw a 60 percent rise in those two sexually transmitted infections among the same age group, according to the Florida Department of Health.

In Riverside County, Calif., home to retirement mecca Palm Springs, reported cases were up 50 percent over the five-year span, according to data from that county's health department.

The reported cases of syphilis and chlamydia among older adults outpaced the nation's average, according to the analysis. Among all age groups nationwide, reported cases of syphilis increased 60 percent between 2005 and 2009, while in the 55 to 64 age group it increased 70 percent. Meanwhile, the incidences of chlamydia rose 27 percent among all ages, and double that among those age 55 to 64."


Message 68cdaf9bgpf-10001-743-07.htm, number 127880, was posted on Sat May 20 at 12:23:25
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9999-323-0.htm

Re: ‘In meteorology what conditions are required to produce a williwaw?’ . .

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


The only thing I can think of is to turn Gore Vidal loose with a typewriter.


On Thu May 18, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference; visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E2684 to find the answer.

Message 47e54d5c00A-10001-1333+06.htm, number 127881, was posted on Sat May 20 at 22:13:21
in reply to 3261d7808YV-10001-705+06.htm

"Cocaine is God's way of telling you you are making too much money." Robin Williams

Key clubs and Cougars


Syphillis is God's way of telling you you have far to much free time (and Viagra).

Message 61769c68UWK-10001-1357+06.htm, number 127882, was posted on Sat May 20 at 22:36:44
in reply to 182d672f0Nn-10000-701+07.htm

Re: Apparently...

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Capt.,
Not totally one party.
TDD is mostly paid for, it will continue as long as it is funded.
I wish you would write something more (novelish or memoirish)so I could fund you.
CS



On Fri May 19, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>...Trump Derangement Disorder (TDD) is incurable.

>Group hysteria gives victims the delusionary sense that incessant ad hominem attacks are the key to curing their "unfair" loss.

>One symptom is they can't let go of the thought that Trump couldn't have won since the polls they paid attention to could NOT have been wrong.

>So how do they console themselves in a manner that still heightens the hysteria?  By grasping at polls, anecdotal reports, and rumors.

>Maxine Waters says the chant "Lock her up, locker her up," came directly from Putin.  Still waiting for that evidence.

>Always fun to post in a one-party forum.  

>This guy gets things moving.  Sadly, that's what really heightens TDD.

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-10002-387-07.htm, number 127883, was posted on Sun May 21 at 06:26:47
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9999-323-0.htm

Re: ‘In meteorology. .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu May 18, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference; visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E2684 to find the answer.

OED says:

‘williwaw, . ? A sailor's (whaler's, etc.) name for a sudden violent squall, orig. in the Straits of Magellan.
1842 J. D. Hooker in L. Huxley Life & Lett. J. D. Hooker (1918) I. vi. 137 A squall or Williewaw, as they are called [round Cape Horn].
1863 R. Fitzroy Weather Bk. 125 (note) , Those whirlwind squalls, formerly called by the sealers in Tierra del Fuego, ‘willi~waws’.
1901 R. Kipling Kim xiii. 335 Where storm and wandering wullie-wa got up to dance.’


Message 46d300c600A-10002-974+05.htm, number 127884, was posted on Sun May 21 at 16:14:09
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-10000-496-07.htm

Actions however still count

Max


Yes, the strawberries remain untouched. However: www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/05/here_is_a_draft_of_articles_of_impeachment_for_donald_j_trump.

Message 47e54d5c00A-10003-423-07.htm, number 127885, was posted on Mon May 22 at 07:02:49
Abraham Lincoln - marine engineer

Whoreson Beast


americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_740175

Message 4b821a108HW-10003-550-30.htm, number 127886, was posted on Mon May 22 at 09:10:02
The trifecta, revisited

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Jan, I just saw this NPR article about something we discussed a few years ago.  The headline reads "If Raw Fruits Or Veggies Give You A Tingly Mouth, It's A Real Syndrome".  I've known about this for years, but now they've given it a name (oh, woopie).  The article confirms what I said before, that the symptoms are mild, annoying rather than life-threatening.  It also mentions that cooking the offending foods denatures the proteins I'm reacting to—or rather the article says it "might help", but in my case at least it's a reliable and complete solution.  And it says a few things I didn't know: that peeling might help, as the proteins tend to concentrate in the skin, and also that symptoms tend to be worse during hay-fever season.  I knew that these mild food allergies are associated with hay fever, but I've never noticed that they're seasonal themselves; I'll have to watch for that to see.


Message 4981ca22cZn-10003-804+1e.htm, number 127887, was posted on Mon May 22 at 13:24:27
in reply to 4b821a108HW-10003-550-30.htm

Re: Fruit allergies

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


I've experienced this for many years from a variety of fruit, but particularly from apples, and am also amused that they have given it a name.  However, my symptoms are not a tingly mouth; they are a scratchy throat, runny nose, sneezing, etc., just like a hay-fever attack.

For apples, I have found:

-  Peeling reduces the symptoms to almost negligible.  However, a large percentage of an apple's nutrition is in its skin so I generally don't do this.

-  Cooking eliminates the symptoms.  Baked apples, with the skin, have no effect.

-  The symptoms are greatly magnified during hay-fever season so the effects must be additive.

-  Eating a small piece of chocolate immediately afterwards will cause the symptoms to dissipate quite rapidly -- a very pleasant discovery!  So, Bob, try this and let me know what happens.  If you can confirm my experience, we can report it to the medical community!



On Mon May 22, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Jan, I just saw this NPR article about something we discussed a few years ago.  The headline reads "If Raw Fruits Or Veggies Give You A Tingly Mouth, It's A Real Syndrome".  I've known about this for years, but now they've given it a name (oh, woopie).  The article confirms what I said before, that the symptoms are mild, annoying rather than life-threatening.  It also mentions that cooking the offending foods denatures the proteins I'm reacting to—or rather the article says it "might help", but in my case at least it's a reliable and complete solution.  And it says a few things I didn't know: that peeling might help, as the proteins tend to concentrate in the skin, and also that symptoms tend to be worse during hay-fever season.  I knew that these mild food allergies are associated with hay fever, but I've never noticed that they're seasonal themselves; I'll have to watch for that to see.

>


Message 321745d08YV-10003-824+1e.htm, number 127888, was posted on Mon May 22 at 13:44:58
in reply to 4b821a108HW-10003-550-30.htm

So here's the thing about food allergies...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


they can go from mildly annoying to life-threatening between one exposure to the next...allergies do not an follow a measured progression of reactions. No strings on them!

My daughter, who has the 'tingly' mouth syndrome, turns out to be allergic to melons, which sadly lose everything pleasing about them when heat is applied.  She also has a histamine reaction to anti-histamines.  I react to seafood no matter how well it is cooked.

Be careful in your experimentation.  Consider visiting an allergist if you're really curious.  I think you may have already played your 'dragged back from the precipice' card for this go round.  Actually, all of my favorite brainiacs have done so, hmmmm.

On Mon May 22, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Jan, I just saw this NPR article about something we discussed a few years ago.  The headline reads "If Raw Fruits Or Veggies Give You A Tingly Mouth, It's A Real Syndrome".  I've known about this for years, but now they've given it a name (oh, woopie).  The article confirms what I said before, that the symptoms are mild, annoying rather than life-threatening.  It also mentions that cooking the offending foods denatures the proteins I'm reacting to—or rather the article says it "might help", but in my case at least it's a reliable and complete solution.  And it says a few things I didn't know: that peeling might help, as the proteins tend to concentrate in the skin, and also that symptoms tend to be worse during hay-fever season.  I knew that these mild food allergies are associated with hay fever, but I've never noticed that they're seasonal themselves; I'll have to watch for that to see.

>


Message 4b821a108HW-10004-621+1d.htm, number 127889, was posted on Tue May 23 at 10:22:07
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-10003-804+1e.htm

Re^2: Fruit allergies

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Apples do it to me only rarely; I always thought it must be a particular variety or crop, but now that you and this article both say it can be worse during hay-fever season I'll watch for that effect.  For me it's raw cherries, potatoes and carrot sticks; other foods only rarely.  I was just talking about this with family last night and my baby sister says it's kiwi fruit with her.

Oh, and peeling; I might try that, too, as an experiment—that is, if the first piece of apple causes a noticeable reaction, I'll wait until the symptoms go away, then peel the next piece to see whether it helps.  Sounds like it may save me a minor annoyance—and I do like a good crisp apple.

I get the lips and the throat both, plus sometimes the swelling.  I never imagined runny nose or sneezing, though.  I guess there's no limiting the different ways human bodies can react to the same stimuli.  I was always more comfortable with physics that biology, for that reason I think.

Chocolate is a happy thought.  I just arrived at my baby sister's house in TN for a semi-annual two-week visit; on the road from NC I usually stop by a Russell-Stover factory outlet where they sell seconds, for example misshapen toffee sticks or nut clusters that stuck together (oh, the horror!).  Or they made 5 bajillion chocolate santas and were able to sell only 3.8 bajillion of them last quarter, so now they're on sale for $2/lb in the factory outlets.  What I'm saying is that I have lots of chocolate on hand; maybe I can make the experiment soon.

On Mon May 22, Mark Henry wrote
-------------------------------
>I've experienced this for many years from a variety of fruit, but particularly from apples, and am also amused that they have given it a name.  However, my symptoms are not a tingly mouth; they are a scratchy throat, runny nose, sneezing, etc., just like a hay-fever attack.

>For apples, I have found:

>-  Peeling reduces the symptoms to almost negligible.  However, a large percentage of an apple's nutrition is in its skin so I generally don't do this.

>-  Cooking eliminates the symptoms.  Baked apples, with the skin, have no effect.

>-  The symptoms are greatly magnified during hay-fever season so the effects must be additive.

>-  Eating a small piece of chocolate immediately afterwards will cause the symptoms to dissipate quite rapidly -- a very pleasant discovery!  So, Bob, try this and let me know what happens.  If you can confirm my experience, we can report it to the medical community!

>On Mon May 22, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Jan, I just saw this NPR article about something we discussed a few years ago.  The headline reads "If Raw Fruits Or Veggies Give You A Tingly Mouth, It's A Real Syndrome".  I've known about this for years, but now they've given it a name (oh, woopie).  The article confirms what I said before, that the symptoms are mild, annoying rather than life-threatening.  It also mentions that cooking the offending foods denatures the proteins I'm reacting to—or rather the article says it "might help", but in my case at least it's a reliable and complete solution.  And it says a few things I didn't know: that peeling might help, as the proteins tend to concentrate in the skin, and also that symptoms tend to be worse during hay-fever season.  I knew that these mild food allergies are associated with hay fever, but I've never noticed that they're seasonal themselves; I'll have to watch for that to see.


Message 4b821a108HW-10004-639+1d.htm, number 127890, was posted on Tue May 23 at 10:40:21
in reply to 321745d08YV-10003-824+1e.htm

I promise I keep my eye on that

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I've long heard that.  I'm not sure when I really started believing it—maybe it was when I suddenly went from immunity to poison ivy to reacting like everyone else.  But I haven't forgotten, and once I had to give up certain (raw) foods I don't keep trying.

Something about the way the article was written led me to wonder whether OAS might never turn lift-threatening like that.  I gather you don't think so, and I'll keep it in mind.  But (he says hopefully) have hay-fever allergies ever suddenly turned deadly like that?  If not, might there be a different mechanism going on here?  I ask not because I'm worried about suddenly dying—that can happen regardless, and my worrying may make it more likely but never less—but because I occasionally think about the pleasures of a slice of salted raw potato, and of not having to wait until after I've died to enjoy one again.

On Mon May 22, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>So here's the thing about food allergies: they can go from mildly annoying to life-threatening between one exposure to the next...allergies do not an follow a measured progression of reactions. No strings on them!

>My daughter, who has the 'tingly' mouth syndrome, turns out to be allergic to melons, which sadly lose everything pleasing about them when heat is applied.  She also has a histamine reaction to anti-histamines.  I react to seafood no matter how well it is cooked.

>Be careful in your experimentation.  Consider visiting an allergist if you're really curious.  I think you may have already played your 'dragged back from the precipice' card for this go round.  Actually, all of my favorite brainiacs have done so, hmmmm.

>On Mon May 22, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Jan, I just saw this NPR article about something we discussed a few years ago.  The headline reads "If Raw Fruits Or Veggies Give You A Tingly Mouth, It's A Real Syndrome".  I've known about this for years, but now they've given it a name (oh, woopie).  The article confirms what I said before, that the symptoms are mild, annoying rather than life-threatening.  It also mentions that cooking the offending foods denatures the proteins I'm reacting to—or rather the article says it "might help", but in my case at least it's a reliable and complete solution.  And it says a few things I didn't know: that peeling might help, as the proteins tend to concentrate in the skin, and also that symptoms tend to be worse during hay-fever season.  I knew that these mild food allergies are associated with hay fever, but I've never noticed that they're seasonal themselves; I'll have to watch for that to see.

>>


Message 4b821a108HW-10004-647-30.htm, number 127891, was posted on Tue May 23 at 10:46:43
in reply to 50e5a913p13-9999-323-0.htm

Re: ‘In meteorology what conditions are required to produce a williwaw?’ . .

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I belatedly read this, and was surprised.  I thought I knew that a williwaw is a mini-tornado in Australia, big enough to knock a man off his horse but not usually to destroy a house.  I thought "williwaw" was the Aussie word for it.  Am I confusing that with a different word?

On Thu May 18, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference; visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E2684 to find the answer.


Message 4b821a108HW-10004-944+1d.htm, number 127892, was posted on Tue May 23 at 15:45:05
in reply to 321745d08YV-10003-824+1e.htm

Oh, and...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


1) My sympathies to your daughter.  All melons?  Such a shame.

2) "Seafood no matter how well it is cooked":  I gotta believe something different is going on in the case of seafood.  Whatever proteins (proteins?) I'm reacting to in fruit and vegetables are changed, destroyed, denatured in some way by cooking.  But with seafood...well, I guess it isn't that different; it's just a different set of proteins that retain their structure, right?

And I'm curious about this seafood thing in general:  It's so often stated just that way, plain "seafood", but is it usually all seafood?  So many allergies are idiosyncratic; in reality is it just some seafoods, and a different set of seafoods for different people?  Clams for some, tuna for others, eels for a third?  If it's all seafoods for everyone, that seems kind of odd considering how much variety there is in allergies.

On Mon May 22, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>they can go from mildly annoying to life-threatening between one exposure to the next...allergies do not an follow a measured progression of reactions. No strings on them!

>My daughter, who has the 'tingly' mouth syndrome, turns out to be allergic to melons, which sadly lose everything pleasing about them when heat is applied.  She also has a histamine reaction to anti-histamines.  I react to seafood no matter how well it is cooked.

>Be careful in your experimentation.  Consider visiting an allergist if you're really curious.  I think you may have already played your 'dragged back from the precipice' card for this go round.  Actually, all of my favorite brainiacs have done so, hmmmm.

>On Mon May 22, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Jan, I just saw this NPR article about something we discussed a few years ago.  The headline reads "If Raw Fruits Or Veggies Give You A Tingly Mouth, It's A Real Syndrome".  I've known about this for years, but now they've given it a name (oh, woopie).  The article confirms what I said before, that the symptoms are mild, annoying rather than life-threatening.  It also mentions that cooking the offending foods denatures the proteins I'm reacting to—or rather the article says it "might help", but in my case at least it's a reliable and complete solution.  And it says a few things I didn't know: that peeling might help, as the proteins tend to concentrate in the skin, and also that symptoms tend to be worse during hay-fever season.  I knew that these mild food allergies are associated with hay fever, but I've never noticed that they're seasonal themselves; I'll have to watch for that to see.

>>


Message 50e5a913p13-10005-385-90.htm, number 127893, was posted on Wed May 24 at 06:25:02
Careless talk by those who should know better

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Ewen MacAskill: The frustration of the security services with the American leaks was obvious on Tuesday, with the release of the name of the Manchester killer and other details while the investigation was still live.

And on Wednesday the home secretary, Amber Rudd, said: “The British police have been very clear that they want to control the flow of information in order to protect operational integrity, the element of surprise. So it is irritating if it gets released from other sources and I have been very clear with our friends that should not happen again.”

The irritation would have turned to despair with the French interior minister, Gerard Collomb, on Wednesday, revealing further details of British intelligence on television. He let it be known not only that Salman Abedi had recently been to Libya, but may also have been in Syria.

The police and security services usually have good reasons for not disclosing information immediately to the media as they accumulate it. One of the main reasons is that it is helpful when investigating a suspect’s network of family, friends and colleagues not to alert them by disclosing the name. So it was awkward for the police when Abedi’s name was revealed by US officials in Washington to American journalists two hours before they disclosed it to the UK.

Earlier in the day, the security services had no plans to disclose the name and may only have done so because of the Americans.

There are other reasons. They do not want to reveal to those they are hunting – and their opponents in general – the extent of the information they hold and, sometimes, the techniques they use for gaining that information.

On a purely practical level, the police would have preferred time searching the home of Abedi and speaking to neighbours without the media descending on the location after the US released the name.

One of the basic tenets of intelligence sharing is that other agencies do not disclose it. The problem is that those intelligence agencies, whether the US or French, pass it upwards to their presidents, prime ministers and departmental ministers. In the past, that secrecy was usually respected.

But in quick succession, Donald Trump revealed to Russia information obtained by Israeli intelligence from a Middle East source, the US revealed UK intelligence about Abedi and now the French have done so too.

The temptation for the UK police and intelligence services would be to stop sharing some of that intelligence. But the UK relies so heavily on the sharing of intelligence from the US and also benefits from intelligence, especially on counter-terrorism, from European colleagues such as France and Germany.

[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/may/24/manchester-arena-bombing-terror-attack-victims-threat-critical-ariana-grande-concert-live-news]


Message 50e5a913p13-10005-385+5a.htm, number 127893, was edited on Wed May 24 at 06:26:05
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10005-385-90.htm

Careless talk by those who should know better

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Ewen MacAskill: The frustration of the security services with the American leaks was obvious on Tuesday, with the release of the name of the Manchester killer and other details while the investigation was still live.

And on Wednesday the home secretary, Amber Rudd, said: “The British police have been very clear that they want to control the flow of information in order to protect operational integrity, the element of surprise. So it is irritating if it gets released from other sources and I have been very clear with our friends that should not happen again.”

The irritation would have turned to despair with the French interior minister, Gerard Collomb, on Wednesday, revealing further details of British intelligence on television. He let it be known not only that Salman Abedi had recently been to Libya, but may also have been in Syria.

The police and security services usually have good reasons for not disclosing information immediately to the media as they accumulate it. One of the main reasons is that it is helpful when investigating a suspect’s network of family, friends and colleagues not to alert them by disclosing the name. So it was awkward for the police when Abedi’s name was revealed by US officials in Washington to American journalists two hours before they disclosed it to the UK.

Earlier in the day, the security services had no plans to disclose the name and may only have done so because of the Americans.

There are other reasons. They do not want to reveal to those they are hunting – and their opponents in general – the extent of the information they hold and, sometimes, the techniques they use for gaining that information.

On a purely practical level, the police would have preferred time searching the home of Abedi and speaking to neighbours without the media descending on the location after the US released the name.

One of the basic tenets of intelligence sharing is that other agencies do not disclose it. The problem is that those intelligence agencies, whether the US or French, pass it upwards to their presidents, prime ministers and departmental ministers. In the past, that secrecy was usually respected.

But in quick succession, Donald Trump revealed to Russia information obtained by Israeli intelligence from a Middle East source, the US revealed UK intelligence about Abedi and now the French have done so too.

The temptation for the UK police and intelligence services would be to stop sharing some of that intelligence. But the UK relies so heavily on the sharing of intelligence from the US and also benefits from intelligence, especially on counter-terrorism, from European colleagues such as France and Germany.

[www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/may/24/manchester-arena-bombing-terror-attack-victims-threat-critical-ariana-]

[ This message was edited on Wed May 24 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10005-399+1d.htm, number 127894, was posted on Wed May 24 at 06:38:58
in reply to 4b821a108HW-10004-647-30.htm

Re^2: ‘In meteorology . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue May 23, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I belatedly read this, and was surprised.  I thought I knew that a williwaw is a mini-tornado in Australia, big enough to knock a man off his horse but not usually to destroy a house.  I thought "williwaw" was the Aussie word for it.  Am I confusing that with a different word?

No: there’s a simple explanation: the OED entry is flagged as ‘last revised in 1926’ so it doesn’t include any secondary meanings that have arisen since then or which were missed in 1926 by the OED’s volunteer readers of Australian printed material.

One can imaginer that sailors laid off in the Depression wander the world looking for work and some of them ended up in the Australian Outback and introduced the word which was then spread by the local press. No doubt ‘williwaw’s association with ‘willy’ made it amusing and memorable, particularly to children:

‘willy willie, n.2   Pet-form of the name William n.2. slang. An infantile name for the penis. Also Comb., as willy-warmer.
1905   Eng. Dial. Dict. Suppl. 178/2   Willy, the male organ; a slang name for a child's penis. Cum., Wm.
1972   Listener 22 June 841/3   The gallant soldier-boys are afflicted with ‘syph, darling’ (‘their willies rot away’).
1975   Observer 7 Dec. 27/3   Joky gifts are speechlessly embarrassing; this season's dud is a woolly willy-warmer.
1977   J. Wilson Making Hate ix. 113   A younger male [baboon]..fingered its crimson penis... ‘It's playing with its willie!’ Nicky squealed.
1985   P. Angadi Governess x. 93   We used to hold each other's willies... We didn't know about sex then.’


Message 4b821a108HW-10005-573+1d.htm, number 127895, was posted on Wed May 24 at 09:32:49
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10005-399+1d.htm

Re^3: ‘In meteorology . .

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


The topic moves forward:  How many Freudians does it take to change a light bulb?  A: Two.  One to screw in the bulb, and one to hold the penis.  Ladder!—I mean ladder.

On Wed May 24, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>No: there’s a simple explanation: the OED entry is flagged as ‘last revised in 1926’ so it doesn’t include any secondary meanings that have arisen since then or which were missed in 1926 by the OED’s volunteer readers of Australian printed material.

>One can imaginer that sailors laid off in the Depression wander the world looking for work and some of them ended up in the Australian Outback and introduced the word which was then spread by the local press. No doubt ‘williwaw’s association with ‘willy’ made it amusing and memorable, particularly to children:

>‘willy willie, n.2   Pet-form of the name William n.2. slang. An infantile name for the penis. Also Comb., as willy-warmer.
>1905   Eng. Dial. Dict. Suppl. 178/2   Willy, the male organ; a slang name for a child's penis. Cum., Wm.
>1972   Listener 22 June 841/3   The gallant soldier-boys are afflicted with ‘syph, darling’ (‘their willies rot away’).
>1975   Observer 7 Dec. 27/3   Joky gifts are speechlessly embarrassing; this season's dud is a woolly willy-warmer.
>1977   J. Wilson Making Hate ix. 113   A younger male [baboon]..fingered its crimson penis... ‘It's playing with its willie!’ Nicky squealed.
>1985   P. Angadi Governess x. 93   We used to hold each other's willies... We didn't know about sex then.’

>On Tue May 23, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>I belatedly read this, and was surprised.  I thought I knew that a williwaw is a mini-tornado in Australia, big enough to knock a man off his horse but not usually to destroy a house.  I thought "williwaw" was the Aussie word for it.  Am I confusing that with a different word?


Message 4b821a108HW-10005-589+5a.htm, number 127896, was posted on Wed May 24 at 09:49:58
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10005-385+5a.htm

Re: Careless talk by those who should know better

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead."  Poor Richard, I think.  The problem with sharing intelligence, as against the acknowledged benefits, is that once you've told a secret you've lost control of it; no matter how discreet you think your intelligence partner is, it will necessarily be released when he thinks best...and of course vice versa.  You sometimes must share information, but you will inevitably bobble the cost/benefit calculation from time to time as someone betrays your trust.

So if the Guardian is right, the Brits' calculation changes a bit, and they'll tell us less next time.

On Wed May 24, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Ewen MacAskill: The frustration of the security services with the American leaks was obvious on Tuesday, with the release of the name of the Manchester killer and other details while the investigation was still live.

>And on Wednesday the home secretary, Amber Rudd, said: “The British police have been very clear that they want to control the flow of information in order to protect operational integrity, the element of surprise. So it is irritating if it gets released from other sources and I have been very clear with our friends that should not happen again.”

>The irritation would have turned to despair with the French interior minister, Gerard Collomb, on Wednesday, revealing further details of British intelligence on television. He let it be known not only that Salman Abedi had recently been to Libya, but may also have been in Syria.

>The police and security services usually have good reasons for not disclosing information immediately to the media as they accumulate it. One of the main reasons is that it is helpful when investigating a suspect’s network of family, friends and colleagues not to alert them by disclosing the name. So it was awkward for the police when Abedi’s name was revealed by US officials in Washington to American journalists two hours before they disclosed it to the UK.

>Earlier in the day, the security services had no plans to disclose the name and may only have done so because of the Americans.

>There are other reasons. They do not want to reveal to those they are hunting – and their opponents in general – the extent of the information they hold and, sometimes, the techniques they use for gaining that information.

>On a purely practical level, the police would have preferred time searching the home of Abedi and speaking to neighbours without the media descending on the location after the US released the name.

>One of the basic tenets of intelligence sharing is that other agencies do not disclose it. The problem is that those intelligence agencies, whether the US or French, pass it upwards to their presidents, prime ministers and departmental ministers. In the past, that secrecy was usually respected.

>But in quick succession, Donald Trump revealed to Russia information obtained by Israeli intelligence from a Middle East source, the US revealed UK intelligence about Abedi and now the French have done so too.

>The temptation for the UK police and intelligence services would be to stop sharing some of that intelligence. But the UK relies so heavily on the sharing of intelligence from the US and also benefits from intelligence, especially on counter-terrorism, from European colleagues such as France and Germany.

>[www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/may/24/manchester-arena-bombing-terror-attack-victims-threat-critical-]


Message 50e5a913p13-10005-812+1d.htm, number 127897, was posted on Wed May 24 at 13:32:36
in reply to 4b821a108HW-10004-647-30.htm

Re^2: ‘In meteorology what conditions are required to produce a williwaw?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue May 23, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I belatedly read this, and was surprised.  I thought I knew that a williwaw is a mini-tornado in Australia, big enough to knock a man off his horse but not usually to destroy a house.  I thought "williwaw" was the Aussie word for it.  Am I confusing that with a different word?

Your ‘williwaw’ is actually a ‘willy-willy’:

‘ . . One surface wind met in many situations is the katabatic wind, which I have observed in impressive intensity in Boulder, Colorado, and which often occurs along the mountain front. It is, in fact, called a "Boulder wind." A similar wind on the Southern California coast is called the "Santa Ana." When the air in a valley cools by radiation at night, it becomes heavier than the air around it, and slides away, being replaced by warmer and lighter air from above. The body of air can accelerate to surprising velocities, of up to 100 mph.

. . The bora of the Dalmatian coast is another katabatic wind. The high plateaus are cold in winter, while the Adriatic is warm. The lapse rate over the water is often superadiabatic, so the descending air spilling off the edge of the plateau is still cooler than its surroundings when it reaches the coast, and the instability causes storms. Similar gusty, cold winds in northern latitudes are called the williwaw (not to be confused with the Australian willy-willy, which is a hurricane). The harmattan of the West African coast is also a dry land wind blowing from December to February.

[mysite.du.edu/~etuttle/weather/wind.htm]
……………………….
‘willy-willy, n. an Australian Aboriginal language. In north-west Australia, a cyclonic storm or tornado. Also attrib.
1894 Age (Melbourne) 20 Jan. 13/4 A..report of a ‘Willy Willy’ in the north-west portion of West Australia.
1902 Blackwood's Edinb. Mag. May 646/2 The pools formed by the willy-willy shower had evaporated.’ (OED)


Message 50e5a913p13-10005-813+1d.htm, number 127897, was edited on Wed May 24 at 13:33:29
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10005-812+1d.htm

Re^2: ‘In meteorology . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue May 23, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I belatedly read this, and was surprised.  I thought I knew that a williwaw is a mini-tornado in Australia, big enough to knock a man off his horse but not usually to destroy a house.  I thought "williwaw" was the Aussie word for it.  Am I confusing that with a different word?

Your ‘williwaw’ is actually a ‘willy-willy’:

‘ . . One surface wind met in many situations is the katabatic wind, which I have observed in impressive intensity in Boulder, Colorado, and which often occurs along the mountain front. It is, in fact, called a "Boulder wind." A similar wind on the Southern California coast is called the "Santa Ana." When the air in a valley cools by radiation at night, it becomes heavier than the air around it, and slides away, being replaced by warmer and lighter air from above. The body of air can accelerate to surprising velocities, of up to 100 mph.

. . The bora of the Dalmatian coast is another katabatic wind. The high plateaus are cold in winter, while the Adriatic is warm. The lapse rate over the water is often superadiabatic, so the descending air spilling off the edge of the plateau is still cooler than its surroundings when it reaches the coast, and the instability causes storms. Similar gusty, cold winds in northern latitudes are called the williwaw (not to be confused with the Australian willy-willy, which is a hurricane). The harmattan of the West African coast is also a dry land wind blowing from December to February.

[mysite.du.edu/~etuttle/weather/wind.htm]
……………………….
‘willy-willy, n.   an Australian Aboriginal language. In north-west Australia, a cyclonic storm or tornado. Also attrib.
1894   Age (Melbourne) 20 Jan. 13/4   A..report of a ‘Willy Willy’ in the north-west portion of West Australia.
1902   Blackwood's Edinb. Mag. May 646/2   The pools formed by the willy-willy shower had evaporated.’ (OED)

[ This message was edited on Wed May 24 by the author ]


Message aeda053200A-10005-881-07.htm, number 127898, was posted on Wed May 24 at 14:41:08
"The Proceedings..." How whales evolved to be yuge.

Whoreson Beast


www.nytimes.com/2017/05/24/science/whales-evolution-oceans.ht

Message 6242b02c00A-10005-1136+1d.htm, number 127899, was posted on Wed May 24 at 18:56:08
in reply to 4b821a108HW-10005-573+1d.htm

Re^4: ‘In meteorology . .

YA


Lol check out this delivery:
youtube.com/watch?v=ky6rgKDvgLc

On Wed May 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>The topic moves forward:  How many Freudians does it take to change a light bulb?  A: Two.  One to screw in the bulb, and one to hold the penis.  Ladder!—I mean ladder.

>


Message 50e5a913p13-10006-307+59.htm, number 127900, was posted on Thu May 25 at 05:06:43
in reply to 4b821a108HW-10005-589+5a.htm

UK police stop passing information to US over leaks of key evidence

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


z

Message 50e5a913p13-10006-308+59.htm, number 127901, was posted on Thu May 25 at 05:08:08
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10006-307+59.htm

Re: UK police stop passing information to US over leaks of key evidence

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed May 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
. . So if the Guardian is right, the Brits' calculation changes a bit, and they'll tell us less next time.

Not next time - this time:

Officers investigating Manchester Arena bombing take decision as transatlantic row over leaks escalates:

British police have stopped sharing evidence from its investigation into the terror network behind the Manchester bombing with the United States after a series of leaks left investigators and the government furious. The ban is limited to the Manchester investigation only, with British police believing the leaks are unprecedented in their scope, frequency and potential damage . .  

Ian Blair, the former Metropolitan police commissioner during the 2005 London underground bombings on 7/7, said his investigation was also troubled by leaks from US intelligence . . he was sure the leaks had “nothing to do with Trump” given that similar leaks had happened during his own time investigating a terror attack.

“I’m afraid this reminds me exactly of what happened after 7/7, when the US published a complete picture of the way the bombs had been made up. We had the same protests. It’s a different world in how the US operates in the sense of how they publish things. And this is a very grievous breach but I’m afraid it’s the same as before.” .  .


Message 50e5a913p13-10006-309+59.htm, number 127900, was edited on Thu May 25 at 05:08:57
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10006-307+59.htm

UK police stop passing information to US over leaks of key evidence

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed May 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
. . So if the Guardian is right, the Brits' calculation changes a bit, and they'll tell us less next time.

Not next time - this time:

Officers investigating Manchester Arena bombing take decision as transatlantic row over leaks escalates:

British police have stopped sharing evidence from its investigation into the terror network behind the Manchester bombing with the United States after a series of leaks left investigators and the government furious. The ban is limited to the Manchester investigation only, with British police believing the leaks are unprecedented in their scope, frequency and potential damage . .  

Ian Blair, the former Metropolitan police commissioner during the 2005 London underground bombings on 7/7, said his investigation was also troubled by leaks from US intelligence . . he was sure the leaks had “nothing to do with Trump” given that similar leaks had happened during his own time investigating a terror attack.

“I’m afraid this reminds me exactly of what happened after 7/7, when the US published a complete picture of the way the bombs had been made up. We had the same protests. It’s a different world in how the US operates in the sense of how they publish things. And this is a very grievous breach but I’m afraid it’s the same as before.” .  .

[ This message was edited on Thu May 25 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10006-311+59.htm, number 127902, was posted on Thu May 25 at 05:10:32
in reply to 4b821a108HW-10005-589+5a.htm

Re^2: Careless talk by those who should know better

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed May 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
So if the Guardian is right, the Brits' calculation changes a bit, and they'll tell us less next time.

On Wed May 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
. . So if the Guardian is right, the Brits' calculation changes a bit, and they'll tell us less next time.

Not next time - this time:

Officers investigating Manchester Arena bombing take decision as transatlantic row over leaks escalates:

British police have stopped sharing evidence from its investigation into the terror network behind the Manchester bombing with the United States after a series of leaks left investigators and the government furious. The ban is limited to the Manchester investigation only, with British police believing the leaks are unprecedented in their scope, frequency and potential damage . .  

Ian Blair, the former Metropolitan police commissioner during the 2005 London underground bombings on 7/7, said his investigation was also troubled by leaks from US intelligence . . he was sure the leaks had “nothing to do with Trump” given that similar leaks had happened during his own time investigating a terror attack.

“I’m afraid this reminds me exactly of what happened after 7/7, when the US published a complete picture of the way the bombs had been made up. We had the same protests. It’s a different world in how the US operates in the sense of how they publish things. And this is a very grievous breach but I’m afraid it’s the same as before.” .  .


Message 50e5a913p13-10006-312+59.htm, number 127902, was edited on Thu May 25 at 05:11:43
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10006-311+59.htm

Re^2: Careless talk by those who should know better

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



On Wed May 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
. . So if the Guardian is right, the Brits' calculation changes a bit, and they'll tell us less next time.

Not next time - this time:

Officers investigating Manchester Arena bombing take decision as transatlantic row over leaks escalates:

British police have stopped sharing evidence from its investigation into the terror network behind the Manchester bombing with the United States after a series of leaks left investigators and the government furious. The ban is limited to the Manchester investigation only, with British police believing the leaks are unprecedented in their scope, frequency and potential damage . .  

Ian Blair, the former Metropolitan police commissioner during the 2005 London underground bombings on 7/7, said his investigation was also troubled by leaks from US intelligence . . he was sure the leaks had “nothing to do with Trump” given that similar leaks had happened during his own time investigating a terror attack.

“I’m afraid this reminds me exactly of what happened after 7/7, when the US published a complete picture of the way the bombs had been made up. We had the same protests. It’s a different world in how the US operates in the sense of how they publish things. And this is a very grievous breach but I’m afraid it’s the same as before.” .  .

[www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/25/uk-police-stop-passing-information-to-us-over-leaks-of-key-evidence]

Live updates: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/may/25/manchester-attack-police-raids-terror-network-live-updates

[ This message was edited on Thu May 25 by the author ]


Message 3261d7828YV-10006-899+1b.htm, number 127903, was posted on Thu May 25 at 14:59:29
in reply to 4b821a108HW-10004-944+1d.htm

Re: Its Iodine

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


But if you just tell people they are allergic to 'iodine', they have no idea what foods have iodine...so.  My health records say "Iodine".  

But, this reminds me of a tragic incident that happened at one of the hospitals I used to work at.  An awake and alert ICU patient with a stated "seafood" allergy received a dinner tray with a fish entree.  The RN tried to take the tray away from the patient and provide an alternate meal.  The patient wanted to know what kind of fish he had been served, and when the kitchen identified the fish, he decided it wasn't the type he was allergic to and insisted on eating the meal.  Of course he went into anaphylatic shock and they couldn't intubate him in time even though he was in an ICU and they were aware of the possiblity.

So...



On Tue May 23, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>1) My sympathies to your daughter.  All melons?  Such a shame.

>2) "Seafood no matter how well it is cooked":  I gotta believe something different is going on in the case of seafood.  Whatever proteins (proteins?) I'm reacting to in fruit and vegetables are changed, destroyed, denatured in some way by cooking.  But with seafood...well, I guess it isn't that different; it's just a different set of proteins that retain their structure, right?

>And I'm curious about this seafood thing in general:  It's so often stated just that way, plain "seafood", but is it usually all seafood?  So many allergies are idiosyncratic; in reality is it just some seafoods, and a different set of seafoods for different people?  Clams for some, tuna for others, eels for a third?  If it's all seafoods for everyone, that seems kind of odd considering how much variety there is in allergies.

>On Mon May 22, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>they can go from mildly annoying to life-threatening between one exposure to the next...allergies do not an follow a measured progression of reactions. No strings on them!

>>My daughter, who has the 'tingly' mouth syndrome, turns out to be allergic to melons, which sadly lose everything pleasing about them when heat is applied.  She also has a histamine reaction to anti-histamines.  I react to seafood no matter how well it is cooked.

>>Be careful in your experimentation.  Consider visiting an allergist if you're really curious.  I think you may have already played your 'dragged back from the precipice' card for this go round.  Actually, all of my favorite brainiacs have done so, hmmmm.

>>On Mon May 22, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>Jan, I just saw this NPR article about something we discussed a few years ago.  The headline reads "If Raw Fruits Or Veggies Give You A Tingly Mouth, It's A Real Syndrome".  I've known about this for years, but now they've given it a name (oh, woopie).  The article confirms what I said before, that the symptoms are mild, annoying rather than life-threatening.  It also mentions that cooking the offending foods denatures the proteins I'm reacting to—or rather the article says it "might help", but in my case at least it's a reliable and complete solution.  And it says a few things I didn't know: that peeling might help, as the proteins tend to concentrate in the skin, and also that symptoms tend to be worse during hay-fever season.  I knew that these mild food allergies are associated with hay fever, but I've never noticed that they're seasonal themselves; I'll have to watch for that to see.

>>>


Message aeda84bf00A-10007-373-07.htm, number 127904, was posted on Fri May 26 at 06:12:49
"....boas he had beheld...."

Whoreson Beast


animalbehaviorandcognition.org/uploads/journals/14/02%20Feb2017%20Dinets_HH(7)_final.pdf

Cuban snakes that hunt in packs.  

Stephen would be elated; for my part: NOPE NOPE NOPE!


Message 50e5a913p13-10007-430+07.htm, number 127905, was posted on Fri May 26 at 07:10:25
in reply to aeda84bf00A-10007-373-07.htm

Re: "....boas he had beheld...."

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri May 26, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>animalbehaviorandcognition.org/uploads/journals/14/02%20Feb2017%20Dinets_HH(7)_final.pdf
…………
‘ . . Discussion: The present study suggests that boas take the positions of other individuals into account when choosing the hunting location. They position themselves in a way that allows them to form a barrier  across a cave passage. This significantly improves the effectiveness of the hunt, apparently because they can most effectively block the prey’s flight path and easily intercept passing bats.

This is the first scientifically documented case of coordinated hunting by snakes. It is also the first study on reptiles to statistically test for coordination between hunters and to show that coordination increases hunting success.

Studies of social behavior in reptiles in the wild are few, the prevalence of such behavior appears to be highly underestimated, and many important observations remain unpublished (Doody, Burghardt, & Dinets, 2013). There are videos of a number of snake species hunting in large groups, for example, of banded sea kraits (Laticauda colubrina) hunting in apparent coordination between themselves and with two species of predatory fish (see www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0038t09), and of Galapagos racers (Philodryas biserialis) hunting iguana hatchlings (see www.bbc.com/earth/story/20161114-fromplanet-earth-ii-a-baby-iguana-is-chased-by-snakes), but these observations have never been published scientifically.

It is possible that boas are not unique among snakes, and that coordinated hunting is not particularly rare. This possibility suggests that at least some snakes are not the “solitary animals” they are commonly considered to be, and that they are capable of high behavioral complexity required for such hunting (Bernard et al., 2016). '


Message 4b821a108HW-10007-598+1a.htm, number 127906, was posted on Fri May 26 at 09:58:24
in reply to 3261d7828YV-10006-899+1b.htm

How strange!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I guess that should give pause to Greg House ("Well, it's a good thing he's in a hospital, then!").  Probably won't, though.

On Thu May 25, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>....a tragic incident that happened at one of the hospitals I used to work at.  An awake and alert ICU patient with a stated "seafood" allergy received a dinner tray with a fish entree.  The RN tried to take the tray away from the patient and provide an alternate meal.  The patient wanted to know what kind of fish he had been served, and when the kitchen identified the fish, he decided it wasn't the type he was allergic to and insisted on eating the meal.  Of course he went into anaphylatic shock and they couldn't intubate him in time even though he was in an ICU and they were aware of the possiblity.


Message 4b821a108HW-10007-602+1b.htm, number 127907, was posted on Fri May 26 at 10:01:44
in reply to 6242b02c00A-10005-1136+1d.htm

Excellent!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I like that very much.  I don't know whether I can pull it off, but I can try.

On Wed May 24, YA wrote
-----------------------
>Lol check out this delivery:
>youtube.com/watch?v=ky6rgKDvgLc

>On Wed May 24, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>How many Freudians does it take to change a light bulb?  A: Two.  One to screw in the bulb, and one to hold the penis.  Ladder!—I mean ladder.


Message 3261e5f48YV-10007-713+1a.htm, number 127908, was posted on Fri May 26 at 11:53:03
in reply to 4b821a108HW-10007-598+1a.htm

Re: Not strange at all

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


I'm trying to tell you that there is no way of knowing how severely you will react to the next exposure of something to which you are allergic. Sometimes things just happen too fast for them to be counteracted.

People die in operating rooms; people code while they're in cath lab (the place you go after a heart attack); and some people can't be intubated because of their physiology.

Sh*t happens - I don't think it's a wise idea to play Russian Roulette.

TV shows are NOT a good source for accurate medical information.



On Fri May 26, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I guess that should give pause to Greg House ("Well, it's a good thing he's in a hospital, then!").  Probably won't, though.

>On Thu May 25, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>....a tragic incident that happened at one of the hospitals I used to work at.  An awake and alert ICU patient with a stated "seafood" allergy received a dinner tray with a fish entree.  The RN tried to take the tray away from the patient and provide an alternate meal.  The patient wanted to know what kind of fish he had been served, and when the kitchen identified the fish, he decided it wasn't the type he was allergic to and insisted on eating the meal.  Of course he went into anaphylatic shock and they couldn't intubate him in time even though he was in an ICU and they were aware of the possiblity.


Message 90a0625f00A-10008-881+0c.htm, number 127909, was posted on Sat May 27 at 14:40:59
in reply to 3261e5f58YV-9993-1270+1b.htm

Re^4: Yeah, no

YA


eh.... Well, it's a commercial, for a commercial product which is probably based on a survey course for non majors. Also, by an MD academic who I trust not to pimp himself out (for anything less than Doctor Oz money). I see Khan academy also has a little something available, or we could get Ben Stein to read the transcript for this course.

Got anything else?

On Fri May 12, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Seems a tad more fraught with hyperbole than I remember my classes.
>
>
>
>On Fri May 12, YA wrote
>-----------------------
>>Might I suggest www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9p4nrTJcd0  . Haven't seen it myself, but it's on great courses plus,so it's probably good, and we all have subscriptions to gcp, right? Right?
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri May 12, akatow wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>Bob, I think you could benefit from taking a basic microbiology class - it would answer many questions for you.  Humans should come with an owners manual.

>>


Message 47e54d5c00A-10008-993-07.htm, number 127910, was posted on Sat May 27 at 16:32:46
Discharged Dead: Gregg Allman

The Midnight Rider


www.rollingstone.com/music/news/gregg-allman-southern-rock-legend-dead-at-69-w433068

Message 46d1c8fb00A-10008-1194+07.htm, number 127911, was posted on Sat May 27 at 19:54:09
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-10008-993-07.htm

Re: Discharged Dead: Gregg Allman

Max


The Allman Bros "invented southern rock"? Bo Diddley, Elvis Presley, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, Fats Domino, Jerry Lee Lewis, Buddy Holly, Muddy Waters, Charlie Daniels, etc.
Was,Ol Greg 10 yet when Rocket 88 was on the charts?



n Sat May 27, The Midnight Rider wrote
---------------------------------------
>www.rollingstone.com/music/news/gregg-allman-southern-rock-legend-dead-at-69-w433068

Message c10b0d08cb5-10009-711-90.htm, number 127912, was posted on Sun May 28 at 11:50:46
Cognitive disorders in the canon.

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


It suddenly occurred to me that O'Brian's books include a great many more cognitive disorders, or sometimes simple character peculiarities, than most other historical novels... or indeed any novels. We have:

- Stephen's addictions to laudanum and coca leaves (and his evident depression)

- The Teapot

- Diana's chaperone in India, who couldn't help speaking aloud what was in her mind

- Stephen's daughter Brigid's apparent autism

- Padeen's near-inability to speak

- The warrant officer who always mistook his right and his left and lost his life as a result

- Clonfert's obsessive competitiveness and strange illness that caused him to sweat on only one side of his body

- Alcoholism in numerous cases

Whom else am I missing?


Message 46d1c0a100A-10009-874+5a.htm, number 127913, was posted on Sun May 28 at 14:34:05
in reply to c10b0d08cb5-10009-711-90.htm

Re: Cognitive disorders in the canon.

Max


>Whom else am I missing?


Clarrisa: sexual dysfunction

An entire asylum in Boston


Message 47e54d5c00A-10010-402-07.htm, number 127914, was posted on Mon May 29 at 06:41:40
“For navigating smartly, Bill Swallow was the man, who laid a course out neatly to take us to Japan.”

Whoreson Beast


www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/may/28/australian-convict-pirates-in-japan-evidence-of-1830-voyage-unearthe

Message 6c1413d300A-10010-653+59.htm, number 127915, was posted on Mon May 29 at 10:52:53
in reply to c10b0d08cb5-10009-711-90.htm

Re: Cognitive disorders in the canon.

Don Seltzer


Clonfert is certainly near the top of the list of interesting, disturbed characters. He even made such an impression on POB that he had Stephen reflect back on Clonfert many books later, in TGS:

---When they were alone with their coffee Stephen, after a long brooding pause, said, 'Do you remember I once said of Clonfert that for him truth was what he could make others believe? ... I expressed myself badly. What I meant was that if he could induce others to believe what he said, then for him the statement acquired some degree of truth, a reflection of their belief that it was true; and this reflected truth might grow stronger with time and repetition until it became conviction, indistinguishable from ordinary factual truth, or very nearly so.'---

Rev Martin comes to mind.  His secret lustful thoughts about Clarissa Oakes led him to believe that his salt-caused skin sores were some dread venereal disease.

And then there is envoy Fox in TGS.  He is haunted by some dark secret that he wishes to confess to Stephen, who puts him off, not wanting to share the burden.  It is strongly implied that is related to a hidden homosexual past, perhaps related to Ledward in their youth.



On Sun May 28, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>It suddenly occurred to me that O'Brian's books include a great many more cognitive disorders, or sometimes simple character peculiarities, than most other historical novels... or indeed any novels. We have:

>- Stephen's addictions to laudanum and coca leaves (and his evident depression)

>- The Teapot

>- Diana's chaperone in India, who couldn't help speaking aloud what was in her mind

>- Stephen's daughter Brigid's apparent autism

>- Padeen's near-inability to speak

>- The warrant officer who always mistook his right and his left and lost his life as a result

>- Clonfert's obsessive competitiveness and strange illness that caused him to sweat on only one side of his body

>- Alcoholism in numerous cases

>Whom else am I missing?
>


Message aeda814500A-10012-801-07.htm, number 127916, was posted on Wed May 31 at 13:20:42
A 21st Century Line of Battle Ship?

Whoreson Beast


foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/what-a-21st-century-battleship-could-look-like-1795547798

Message 465fd3f38YV-10015-1294-90.htm, number 127917, was posted on Sat Jun 3 at 21:34:31
And I wondered why the freeways were slow at 0730 this morning...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Only in California -






That is, of course, the USS Midway behind the cattle.

Message aeda8e8500A-10016-393-07.htm, number 127918, was posted on Sun Jun 4 at 06:33:05
Gedymin Jagiello's countrymen? -- mummified. If we could only consult Stephen

Whoreson Beast


.

n


Message 68cdafa4gpf-10016-1310-07.htm, number 127919, was posted on Sun Jun 4 at 21:50:05
Mark Twain on Bonaparte

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I just came across this, in 'Life on the Mississippi':

'Against the crimes of the French Revolution and of Bonaparte may be set two compensating benefactions: the revolution broke the chains of the ancient regime and of the Church, and made of a nation of abject slaves a nation of freemen; and Bonaparte instituted the setting of merit above birth, and also so completely stripped the divinity from royalty that whereas crowned heads in Europe were gods before, they are only men, since, and can never be gods again, but only figureheads, and answerable for their acts like common clay. Such benefactions as these compensate the temporary harm which Bonaparte and the revolution did, and leave the world in debt to them for these great and permanent services to liberty, humanity and progress.'

I wonder what Stephen would have said to that. Or Jack, for that matter.

Oddly enough, Twain goes on from there to blame Walter Scott for the backwardness of the South.


Message 46d30ca900A-10017-438+06.htm, number 127920, was posted on Mon Jun 5 at 07:18:12
in reply to 68cdafa4gpf-10016-1310-07.htm

Re: Mark Twain on Sir Walter Scott

Max


twain.lib.virginia.edu/yankee/cyinlife.html

MT makes a good point.




n Sun Jun 4, Joe McWilliams wrote
----------------------------------
>I just came across this, in 'Life on the Mississippi':

>'Against the crimes of the French Revolution and of Bonaparte may be set two compensating benefactions: the revolution broke the chains of the ancient regime and of the Church, and made of a nation of abject slaves a nation of freemen; and Bonaparte instituted the setting of merit above birth, and also so completely stripped the divinity from royalty that whereas crowned heads in Europe were gods before, they are only men, since, and can never be gods again, but only figureheads, and answerable for their acts like common clay. Such benefactions as these compensate the temporary harm which Bonaparte and the revolution did, and leave the world in debt to them for these great and permanent services to liberty, humanity and progress.'

>I wonder what Stephen would have said to that. Or Jack, for that matter.

>Oddly enough, Twain goes on from there to blame Walter Scott for the backwardness of the South.


Message 4747f4808HW-10017-684+06.htm, number 127921, was posted on Mon Jun 5 at 11:24:03
in reply to 46d30ca900A-10017-438+06.htm

Re^2: Mark Twain on Sir Walter Scott

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'm all for recognizing clearly the relative merits of realism and fantasy, and for not getting them confused.  In that pursuit, it's well to keep in mind a danger in the opposite direction:  It seems to me that some folks who want to be realists make the mistake of thinking that all laudable ideals are fantasy and all grit, vice and cruelty are real.

In the intro to the article in Max's link, my eye caught on the writer's distinction between "Scott's idealizations of the Middle Ages" and "[Twain's] own 'realistic' attempt to show the same past as it actually was".  I'm reminded of a snippet from The Screwtape Letters:

....there is a sort of attack on the emotions which can still be tried.  It turns on making him feel, when first he sees human remains plastered on a wall, that this is "what the world is really like" and that all his religion has been a fantasy.  You will notice that we have got them completely fogged about the meaning of the word "real".  They tell each other, of some great spiritual experience, "all that really happened was that you heard some music in a lighted building"; here "real" means the bare physical facts, separated from the other elements in the experience they actually had.  On the other hand, they will also say "It's all very well discussing that high dive as you sit here in an armchair, but wait till you get up there and see what it's really like"; here "real" is being used in the opposite sense to mean not the physical facts (which they know already while discussing the matter in armchairs) but the emotional effect those facts will have on a human consciousness.  Either application of the word could be defended; but our business is to keep the two going at once so that the emotional value of the word "real" can be placed now on one side of the account, now on the other, as it happens to suit us.  The general rule which we have now pretty well established among them is that in all experience which can make them happier or better only the physical facts are "real" while the spiritual elements are "subjective"; in all experiences which can discourage or corrupt them, the spiritual elements are the main reality and to ignore them is to be an escapist.  This in birth the blood and pain are "real", the rejoicing a mere subjective point of view; in death, the terror and ugliness reveal what death "really means".  The hatefulness of a hated person is "real"—in hatred you see men as they are, you are disillusioned—but the loveliness of a loved person is merely a subjective haze concealing a "real" core of sexual appetite or economic association.  Wars and poverty are "really" horrible; peace and plenty are mere physical facts about which men happen to have certain sentiments.  The creatures are always accusing one another of wanting "to eat the cake and have it "; but thanks to our labours they are more often in the predicament of paying for the cake and not eating it.  Your patient, properly handled, will have no difficulty in regarding his emotions an the sight of human entrails as a revelation of Reality and his emotion at the sight of happy children or fair weather as mere sentiment.

This is a side hike only, one I took upon reading the intro.  I haven't yet read the Twain article to the end and am not accusing Twain of making this mistake.

On Mon Jun 5, Max wrote
-----------------------
>twain.lib.virginia.edu/yankee/cyinlife.html

>MT makes a good point.

>n Sun Jun 4, Joe McWilliams wrote
>----------------------------------
>>I just came across this, in 'Life on the Mississippi':

>>'Against the crimes of the French Revolution and of Bonaparte may be set two compensating benefactions: the revolution broke the chains of the ancient regime and of the Church, and made of a nation of abject slaves a nation of freemen; and Bonaparte instituted the setting of merit above birth, and also so completely stripped the divinity from royalty that whereas crowned heads in Europe were gods before, they are only men, since, and can never be gods again, but only figureheads, and answerable for their acts like common clay. Such benefactions as these compensate the temporary harm which Bonaparte and the revolution did, and leave the world in debt to them for these great and permanent services to liberty, humanity and progress.'

>>I wonder what Stephen would have said to that. Or Jack, for that matter.

>>Oddly enough, Twain goes on from there to blame Walter Scott for the backwardness of the South.


Message 4747f4808HW-10017-999+06.htm, number 127921, was edited on Mon Jun 5 at 16:39:16
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-10017-684+06.htm

Re^2: Mark Twain on Sir Walter Scott

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'm all for recognizing clearly the relative merits of realism and fantasy, and for not getting them confused.  In that pursuit, it's well to keep in mind a danger in the opposite direction:  It seems to me that some folks who want to be realists make the mistake of thinking that all laudable ideals are fantasy and all grit, vice and cruelty are real.

In the intro to the article in Max's link, my eye caught on the writer's distinction between "Scott's idealizations of the Middle Ages" and "[Twain's] own 'realistic' attempt to show the same past as it actually was".  I'm reminded of a snippet from The Screwtape Letters:

....there is a sort of attack on the emotions which can still be tried.  It turns on making him feel, when first he sees human remains plastered on a wall, that this is "what the world is really like" and that all his religion has been a fantasy.  You will notice that we have got them completely fogged about the meaning of the word "real".  They tell each other, of some great spiritual experience, "all that really happened was that you heard some music in a lighted building"; here "real" means the bare physical facts, separated from the other elements in the experience they actually had.  On the other hand, they will also say "It's all very well discussing that high dive as you sit here in an armchair, but wait till you get up there and see what it's really like"; here "real" is being used in the opposite sense to mean not the physical facts (which they know already while discussing the matter in armchairs) but the emotional effect those facts will have on a human consciousness.  Either application of the word could be defended; but our business is to keep the two going at once so that the emotional value of the word "real" can be placed now on one side of the account, now on the other, as it happens to suit us.  The general rule which we have now pretty well established among them is that in all experience which can make them happier or better only the physical facts are "real" while the spiritual elements are "subjective"; in all experiences which can discourage or corrupt them, the spiritual elements are the main reality and to ignore them is to be an escapist.  Thus in birth the blood and pain are "real", the rejoicing a mere subjective point of view; in death, the terror and ugliness reveal what death "really means".  The hatefulness of a hated person is "real"—in hatred you see men as they are, you are disillusioned—but the loveliness of a loved person is merely a subjective haze concealing a "real" core of sexual appetite or economic association.  Wars and poverty are "really" horrible; peace and plenty are mere physical facts about which men happen to have certain sentiments.  The creatures are always accusing one another of wanting "to eat the cake and have it "; but thanks to our labours they are more often in the predicament of paying for the cake and not eating it.  Your patient, properly handled, will have no difficulty in regarding his emotions at the sight of human entrails as a revelation of Reality and his emotion at the sight of happy children or fair weather as mere sentiment.

This is a side hike only, one I took upon reading the intro.  I haven't yet read the Twain article to the end and am not accusing Twain of making this mistake.

[Later: Corrected a couple typos.]

On Mon Jun 5, Max wrote
-----------------------
>twain.lib.virginia.edu/yankee/cyinlife.html

>MT makes a good point.

>n Sun Jun 4, Joe McWilliams wrote
>----------------------------------
>>I just came across this, in 'Life on the Mississippi':

>>'Against the crimes of the French Revolution and of Bonaparte may be set two compensating benefactions: the revolution broke the chains of the ancient regime and of the Church, and made of a nation of abject slaves a nation of freemen; and Bonaparte instituted the setting of merit above birth, and also so completely stripped the divinity from royalty that whereas crowned heads in Europe were gods before, they are only men, since, and can never be gods again, but only figureheads, and answerable for their acts like common clay. Such benefactions as these compensate the temporary harm which Bonaparte and the revolution did, and leave the world in debt to them for these great and permanent services to liberty, humanity and progress.'

>>I wonder what Stephen would have said to that. Or Jack, for that matter.

>>Oddly enough, Twain goes on from there to blame Walter Scott for the backwardness of the South.

[ This message was edited on Mon Jun 5 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-10017-1288+06.htm, number 127922, was posted on Mon Jun 5 at 21:28:37
in reply to aeda8e8500A-10016-393-07.htm

Re: Gedymin Jagiello's countrymen? -- mummified. If we could only consult Stephen

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Coïcidentally, I just rewatching Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade:

On Sun Jun 4, Whoreson Beast wrote
----------------------------------
>article


Message 50e5a913p13-10018-841-90.htm, number 127923, was posted on Tue Jun 6 at 14:00:53
Off with their heads: 3D scans reveal Lord Nelson's secrets

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-06 at 18.46.51.png
Wax portrait heads of historical figures captured in extraordinary detail in pioneering partnership of art and science:

Maev Kennedy writes: Adm Lord Horatio Nelson and William Pitt the Younger have travelled together by taxi across the Thames, from their home in Westminster Abbey to St Thomas’ hospital, to have their heads run through some of the most sophisticated scanning equipment in the world in a pioneering partnership of art, conservation and science.

Scanning of the wax portrait heads, made at the time of their deaths in 1805 and 1806, was performed using state-of-the-art equipment owned by Guy’s and St Thomas’, with all the scientists, curators, conservators and abbey staff involved in the project working unpaid overtime . .

The figure – dressed in one of the admiral’s uniforms and a hat with a flap that folds down to protect his blind eye – is startlingly lifelike, a fact vouched for by his mistress, Emma Hamilton, who was barred from his state funeral but brought discreetly into the abbey to see the effigy.

. . Nelson sat for his portrait, made by wax artist Patience Wright, whose double life might have surprised the admiral – she was also an American spy, who enclosed secret messages in the wax busts she sent to the US.

. . The scanning forms part of extensive conservation work on the abbey’s collection, before a new museum opens in 2018 in the triforium, the attic of the church never before open to the public.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/03/off-with-his-head-3d-scans-reveal-lord-horatio-nelson-william-pitt-secrets]

New tower will reveal hidden world of Westminster Abbey https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/dec/14/new-tower-will-reveal-hidden-world-westminster-abbey


Message 6c1413d300A-10018-1011+5a.htm, number 127924, was posted on Tue Jun 6 at 16:51:06
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10018-841-90.htm

Re: Off with their heads: 3D scans reveal Lord Nelson's secrets

Don Seltzer



...Scanning of the wax portrait heads, made at the time of their deaths in 1805 and 1806,...

... Nelson sat for his portrait, made by wax artist Patience Wright, whose double life might have surprised the admiral – she was also an American spy, who enclosed secret messages in the wax busts she sent to the US.


I am trying to imagine Admiral Nelson sitting for his portrait after his death.  And his willingness to do so for a sculptor who had died two decades earlier, in 1786.


Message 50e5a913p13-10018-1168+5a.htm, number 127923, was edited on Tue Jun 6 at 19:28:26
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10018-841-90.htm

Off with their heads: 3D scans reveal Lord Nelson's secrets

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-06 at 18.46.51.png
Wax portrait heads of historical figures captured in extraordinary detail in pioneering partnership of art and science:

Maev Kennedy writes: Adm Lord Horatio Nelson and William Pitt the Younger have travelled together by taxi across the Thames, from their home in Westminster Abbey to St Thomas’ hospital, to have their heads run through some of the most sophisticated scanning equipment in the world in a pioneering partnership of art, conservation and science.

Scanning of the wax portrait heads, made at the time of their deaths in 1805 and 1806, was performed using state-of-the-art equipment owned by Guy’s and St Thomas’, with all the scientists, curators, conservators and abbey staff involved in the project working unpaid overtime . .

The figure – dressed in one of the admiral’s uniforms and a hat with a flap that folds down to protect his blind eye – is startlingly lifelike, a fact vouched for by his mistress, Emma Hamilton, who was barred from his state funeral but brought discreetly into the abbey to see the effigy.

. . Nelson sat for his portrait, made by wax artist Patience Wright, whose double life might have surprised the admiral – she was also an American spy, who enclosed secret messages in the wax busts she sent to the US.

. . The scanning forms part of extensive conservation work on the abbey’s collection, before a new museum opens in 2018 in the triforium, the attic of the church never before open to the public.

[www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/03/off-with-his-head-3d-scans-reveal-lord-horatio-nelson-william-pitt-secrets]

New tower will reveal hidden world of Westminster Abbey www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/dec/14/new-tower-will-reveal-hidden-world-westminster-abbey

[ This message was edited on Tue Jun 6 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10018-1196+5a.htm, number 127925, was posted on Tue Jun 6 at 19:56:15
in reply to 6c1413d300A-10018-1011+5a.htm

Re^2: Off with their heads: 3D scans reveal Lord Nelson's secrets

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Jun 6, Don Seltzer wrote
-------------------------------
. . I am trying to imagine Admiral Nelson sitting for his portrait after his death.  And his willingness to do so for a sculptor who had died two decades earlier, in 1786.

The Abbey’s press release sets the record straight:

‘ . . The Abbey has an important collection of funeral effigies, dating from the death of King Edward III in 1377. They were originally made to lie on top of the coffin, dressed in ceremonial clothes, to represent the dead monarch lying beneath. The Abbey’s earliest wax effigy is Charles II (died 1685), whose hand has also been scanned in this collaboration. The lifelike wax head of William Pitt, was one of the last to be made by Patience Wright, the American wax sculptor who was as celebrated in her day as Madame Tussaud.

Nelson’s wax head was made during his lifetime and acquired by the Abbey as a tourist attraction after his death. His lover, Lady Emma Hamilton, thought that it was so lifelike that she apparently arranged a lock of the hair as he always wore it.  

Both effigies will form part of the display in a new museum and gallery at Westminster Abbey

www.westminster-abbey.org/press/news/2017/may/new-collaboration-to-reveal-secrets-of-nelson-and-pitt-effigies


Message 50e5a913p13-10020-203-90.htm, number 127926, was posted on Thu Jun 8 at 03:23:40
It’s Election Day here in Blighty . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . so here’s an old favourite from Hogarth:
 photo 1024px-William_Hogarth_031.jpg

Message 50e5a913p13-10020-203+5a.htm, number 127926, was edited on Thu Jun 8 at 04:38:47
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10020-203-90.htm

It’s Election Day here in Blighty . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . so here’s an old favourite from Hogarth:
 photo 1024px-William_Hogarth_031.jpg
plus Steve Bell from today’s Guardian:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-08 at 09.33.04.png
www.theguardian.com/profile/stevebell

[ This message was edited on Thu Jun 8 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10020-399-90.htm, number 127927, was posted on Thu Jun 8 at 06:39:52
Qatar - all you need to know

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


A brief explainer for anyone who wonders why we should care about Qatar:
 photo QatarTurkeyGasLine_01.png
‘ . . As ZeroHedge pointed out yesterday it’s about energy and the money and power that comes with it. Surprise:

“The real reason behind the diplomatic fallout may be far simpler, and once again has to do with a long-running and controversial topic, namely Qatar’s regional natural gas dominance.

Recall that many have speculated (with evidence going back as far back as 2012) that one of the reasons for the long-running Syria proxy war was nothing more complex than competing gas pipelines, with Qatar eager to pass its own pipeline, connecting Europe to its vast natural gas deposits, however as that would put Gazprom’s monopoly of European LNG supply in jeopardy, Russia had been firmly, and violently, against this strategy from the beginning and explains Putin’s firm support of the Assad regime and the Kremlin’s desire to prevent the replacement of the Syrian government with a puppet regime.”

With nearly 30% of global LNG supply, Qatar has more natural gas than Michael Moore after a bowl of cauliflower. And what’s more, it has the lowest extraction rates in the world. It’s how they got to be the richest country in the world on a per capita basis.’

[capitalistexploits.at/2017/06/world-whack-qatar-gently-weeps/]


Message 50e5a913p13-10020-203+07.htm, number 127926, was edited on Thu Jun 8 at 07:23:30
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10020-203+5a.htm

It’s Election Day here in Blighty . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . so here’s an old favourite from Hogarth:
 photo 1024px-William_Hogarth_031.jpg
plus Steve Bell from today’s Guardian:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-08 at 09.33.04.png
www.theguardian.com/profile/stevebell

Britain's Strange Election About Nothing (Bloomberg June 8)          

[ This message was edited on Thu Jun 8 by the author ]


Message 46c795dd00A-10020-1010+07.htm, number 127928, was posted on Thu Jun 8 at 16:50:03
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10020-203+07.htm

Re: It’s Election Day here in Blighty . .

Max


Subtle differences from the Trump campaign

In a packed final rally at London's Union Chapel, Jeremy Corbyn quoted Shelley as he urged young voters to "rise like lions from slumber in unvanquishable number".


Message 50e5a913p13-10020-1214+07.htm, number 127929, was posted on Thu Jun 8 at 20:14:17
in reply to 46c795dd00A-10020-1010+07.htm

Life is full of surprises!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Jun 8, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Subtle differences from the Trump campaign

>In a packed final rally at London's Union Chapel, Jeremy Corbyn quoted Shelley as he urged young voters to "rise like lions from slumber in unvanquishable number".

You can follow it at: www.bloomberg.com/news/live-blog/2017-04-25/u-k-general-election
 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-09 at 00.43.56.png
 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-09 at 00.52.24.png
and, finally, nephew Robert, who reports for Bloomberg from the Palace of Westminster:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-09 at 01.04.09.png
twitter.com/RobDotHutton/with_replies


Message 32e1898300A-10021-435+06.htm, number 127930, was posted on Fri Jun 9 at 07:15:32
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10020-1214+07.htm

Re: Life is full of surprises!

Max


If we give you back New Jersey can we have Preet Gill?




n Thu Jun 8, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>On Thu Jun 8, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>Subtle differences from the Trump campaign

>>In a packed final rally at London's Union Chapel, Jeremy Corbyn quoted Shelley as he urged young voters to "rise like lions from slumber in unvanquishable number".

>You can follow it at: www.bloomberg.com/news/live-blog/2017-04-25/u-k-general-election
> photo Screen Shot 2017-06-09 at 00.43.56.png
> photo Screen Shot 2017-06-09 at 00.52.24.png
>and, finally, nephew Robert, who reports for Bloomberg from the Palace of Westminster:
> photo Screen Shot 2017-06-09 at 01.04.09.png
>twitter.com/RobDotHutton/with_replies


Message 50e5a913p13-10021-564+06.htm, number 127931, was posted on Fri Jun 9 at 09:24:30
in reply to 32e1898300A-10021-435+06.htm

Re^2: Life is full of surprises!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Jun 9, Max wrote
-----------------------
>If we give you back New Jersey can we have Preet Gill?

? I had never heard of her before now but I gather that she’s a British Sikh singer just elected to Parliament:

 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-09 at 14.11.29.png


Message 50e5a913p13-10021-577+06.htm, number 127931, was edited on Fri Jun 9 at 09:37:13
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10021-564+06.htm

Re^2: Life is full of surprises!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Jun 9, Max wrote
-----------------------
>If we give you back New Jersey can we have Preet Gill?

? I had never heard of her before now but I gather that she’s a British Sikh singer just elected to Parliament:

Would your goons let her in?
 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-09 at 14.11.29.png

Good lungs, evvidently. The Tories will not easily be able to shout her down if they don’t like what she’s saying . .

[ This message was edited on Fri Jun 9 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10021-578+06.htm, number 127931, was edited on Fri Jun 9 at 09:38:32
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10021-577+06.htm

Re^2: Life is full of surprises!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Jun 9, Max wrote
-----------------------
>If we give you back New Jersey can we have Preet Gill?

? I had never heard of her before now but I gather that she’s a British Sikh singer just elected to Parliament:

Would your goons let her in?
 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-09 at 14.11.29.png

Good lungs, evidently. The Tories will not easily be able to shout her down if they don’t like what she’s saying . .

[ This message was edited on Fri Jun 9 by the author ]


Message 32e1898300A-10021-609+06.htm, number 127932, was posted on Fri Jun 9 at 10:09:19
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10021-578+06.htm

Re^3: Life is full of surprises!

Max


Fagetta 'bout it. I know a guy. She's in.

So, is Boris going to be the new PM?



On Fri Jun 9, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>On Fri Jun 9, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>If we give you back New Jersey can we have Preet Gill?

>? I had never heard of her before now but I gather that she’s a British Sikh singer just elected to Parliament:

>Would your goons let her in?
> photo Screen Shot 2017-06-09 at 14.11.29.png
>
>Good lungs, evidently. The Tories will not easily be able to shout her down if they don’t like what she’s saying . .


Message 50e5a913p13-10021-678+06.htm, number 127933, was posted on Fri Jun 9 at 11:27:17
in reply to 32e1898300A-10021-609+06.htm

Re^4: Life is full of surprises!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Jun 9, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Fagetta 'bout it. I know a guy. She's in.

>So, is Boris going to be the new PM?

We must wait and see:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-09 at 16.15.01.png

May Vows to Stay on for Brexit After Forging Loose Alliance:

' . . If history is any indication, the Tories will waste little time in seeking a new leader. But for now, she’s bought herself some time.'


Message 47e54d5c00A-10022-441-07.htm, number 127934, was posted on Sat Jun 10 at 07:20:45
Sloth's undebauched

Whoreson Beast


money.cnn.com/2017/03/10/luxury/sloth-portland-oregon-business-travel/index.html

Message aeda818600A-10022-520-07.htm, number 127935, was posted on Sat Jun 10 at 08:39:47
Americas' Cup NBCSportsNetwork

Whoreson Beast


How about the harmonics coming off Artemis when she's throwing a fine
foil wave.  Will we get a boat at 100% foiling around the Grand
Sound?

I'm thinking Jimmy Spithill's got his hands full defending
against the Swedes and Kiwis, with Japan lurking.

Sir Ben seems more intent on rubbing than racing.  


Message 47e54d5c00A-10022-762-07.htm, number 127936, was posted on Sat Jun 10 at 12:41:41
"The US Navy is Screwed"

Whoreson Beast


foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-u-s-navy-is-screwed-1795662679

Message 50e5a913p13-10022-889+05.htm, number 127937, was posted on Sat Jun 10 at 14:49:59
in reply to 32e1898300A-10021-609+06.htm

Re^4: Life is full of surprises!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Jun 9, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Fagetta 'bout it. I know a guy. She's in.

>So, is Boris going to be the new PM?

If the next PM is a Tory, he’s favourite:
 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-10 at 19.40.18.png
His Premiership would certainly add to the gaiety of nations far away from Blighty while it lasts, which is unlikely to be long, but it may be much less amusing for the long-suffering people of Britiain.


Message aeda812f00A-10023-606-07.htm, number 127938, was posted on Sun Jun 11 at 10:06:04
A banyan jacket. "TFSotW"

Whoreson Beast


I recall the unique garment from the film and ran across it again in the Canon....this article perhaps predates our heroes.

www.history.org/history/clothing/men/mglossary.cfm


Message 50e5a913p13-10023-810+07.htm, number 127939, was posted on Sun Jun 11 at 13:30:24
in reply to aeda812f00A-10023-606-07.htm

'His banyan, with silver clasp, wrapt round His shrinking paunch.'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Jun 11, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>I recall the unique garment from the film .  .

‘banian, . Portugue e Arab c Sanskrit . .
1. A Hindu trader, especially one from the province of Gujarat (‘many of which have for ages been settled in Arabian ports, and known by this name’ —Col. Yule); sometimes applied by early writers to all Hindus in Western India . .

3. A loose gown, jacket, or shirt of flannel, worn in India. (Originally attrib. from sense 1.)
1725 in Harl. Misc. VIII. 297, I have lost nothing by it but a banyan shirt, a corner of my quilt, and my bible singed.
1773 R. Graves Spiritual Quixote III. xi. iv. 198 His banyan, with silver clasp, wrapt round His shrinking paunch.
1854 J. H. Stocqueler Hand-bk. Brit. India (ed. 3) 315 Even in the low country a light flannel banian (jacket or shirt) is of service.’

(OED)


Message 6b4d6f5ewd5-10024-828-90.htm, number 127940, was posted on Mon Jun 12 at 13:48:02
The map of literature

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


I need to look at this on a proper screen not my phone

Let's hope that POB is on one of the continents

https://www.buzzfeed.com/danieldalton/map-of-literature?utm_term=.pe0688eRk#.xi0y00wNd

Tom


Message 6b4d6f5ewd5-10024-828+5a.htm, number 127940, was edited on Mon Jun 12 at 22:37:22
and replaces message 6b4d6f5ewd5-10024-828-90.htm

The map of literature-edited link-try it now!

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


I need to look at this on a proper screen not my phone

Let's hope that POB is on one of the continents

www.buzzfeed.com/danieldalton/map-of-literature?utm_term=.pe0688eRk#.xi0y00wNd

Tom

[ This message was edited on Mon Jun 12 by the author ]


Message aeda8d8000A-10026-418-07.htm, number 127941, was posted on Wed Jun 14 at 06:57:57
"Coast Guard ship found after 100 years in US Pacific coast"

Whoreson Beast


www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/us/coast-guard-ship-remains/index.html

Off Santa Barbara.


Message 50e5a913p13-10026-570-07.htm, number 127942, was posted on Wed Jun 14 at 09:29:47
test

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This has nothing to do with eating bayan fruits (= Indian figs) but derives from the veggie diet of the banyans:

‘banian . .
2. In Bengal: a native-born broker or clerk attached to a European business; (also) a person similarly employed by a private individual.m  Now usually called sircar.
1783   E. Burke Speech Fox's E. India Bill in Wks. (1842) I. 293   Mr. Hastings's bannian was, after this auction, found possessed of territories, etc. . .

. .  banian-day  n. (Naut.) one on which no meat is served out.
1748   T. Smollett Roderick Random I. xxv. 234   On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, the ship's company had no allowance of meat, and..these meagre days were called banyan days . . ‘


Message 4747f48000A-10026-577+07.htm, number 127943, was posted on Wed Jun 14 at 09:37:30
in reply to aeda8d8000A-10026-418-07.htm

Re: "Coast Guard ship found after 100 years in US Pacific coast"

Grammar Nazi


For a professional writer Ms Chavez has a curiously poor grasp of the English language.  Leaving aside minor punctuation problems, the Coast-Guard cutter "battled wars" before "the shipwreck disappeared under water" and is now found "in the coast"—although that last is more probably the fault of the headline writer.

But it's only CNN; maybe the problem is institutional.

On Wed Jun 14, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/us/coast-guard-ship-remains/index.html

>Off Santa Barbara.


Message 50e5a913p13-10026-570+07.htm, number 127942, was edited on Wed Jun 14 at 10:17:43
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10026-570-07.htm

. . these meagre days were called banyan days . . ‘

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This has nothing to do with eating bayan fruits (= Indian figs) but derives from the veggie diet of the banyans:

‘banian . .
2. In Bengal: a native-born broker or clerk attached to a European business; (also) a person similarly employed by a private individual.m  Now usually called sircar.
1783   E. Burke Speech Fox's E. India Bill in Wks. (1842) I. 293   Mr. Hastings's bannian was, after this auction, found possessed of territories, etc. . .

. .  banian-day  n. (Naut.) one on which no meat is served out.
1748   T. Smollett Roderick Random I. xxv. 234   On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, the ship's company had no allowance of meat, and..these meagre days were called banyan days . . ‘

[ This message was edited on Wed Jun 14 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10026-619+04.htm, number 127944, was posted on Wed Jun 14 at 10:18:40
in reply to aeda812f00A-10023-606-07.htm

. . these meagre days were called banyan days . . ‘

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This has nothing to do with eating bayan fruits (= Indian figs) but derives from the veggie diet of the banyans:

‘banian . .
2. In Bengal: a native-born broker or clerk attached to a European business; (also) a person similarly employed by a private individual.m  Now usually called sircar.
1783   E. Burke Speech Fox's E. India Bill in Wks. (1842) I. 293   Mr. Hastings's bannian was, after this auction, found possessed of territories, etc. . .

. .  banian-day  n. (Naut.) one on which no meat is served out.
1748   T. Smollett Roderick Random I. xxv. 234   On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, the ship's company had no allowance of meat, and..these meagre days were called banyan days . . ‘

(OED)


Message 50e5a913p13-10027-804+03.htm, number 127944, was edited on Thu Jun 15 at 13:24:34
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10026-619+04.htm

. . these meagre days were called banyan days . . ‘

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This has nothing to do with eating banyan fruits (= Indian figs) but derives from the veggie diet of the banyans:

‘banian . .
2. In Bengal: a native-born broker or clerk attached to a European business; (also) a person similarly employed by a private individual.m  Now usually called sircar.
1783   E. Burke Speech Fox's E. India Bill in Wks. (1842) I. 293   Mr. Hastings's bannian was, after this auction, found possessed of territories, etc. . .

. .  banian-day  n. (Naut.) one on which no meat is served out.
1748   T. Smollett Roderick Random I. xxv. 234   On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, the ship's company had no allowance of meat, and..these meagre days were called banyan days . . ‘

(OED)

[ This message was edited on Thu Jun 15 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10027-809-90.htm, number 127945, was posted on Thu Jun 15 at 13:29:29
Poseidon’s Curse: British Naval Impressment and Atlantic Origins of the American Revolution

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Poseidon’s Curse: British Naval Impressment and Atlantic Origins of the American Revolution
by Christopher Magra; Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 2016, ISBN: 9781107112148; 352pp.; Price: £39.99; Reviewer: Professor Paul Gilje, University of Oklahoma
www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/2124?utm_source=Reviews+in+H

Author’s response: www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/2124?utm_source=Reviews+in+History&utm_campaign=fad5ab3f70-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_02_23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f24f670b90-fad5ab3f70-516740337#author-response


Message 50e5a913p13-10027-809+07.htm, number 127945, was edited on Thu Jun 15 at 13:34:03
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10027-809-90.htm

Poseidon’s Curse: British Naval Impressment and Atlantic Origins of the American Revolution

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Poseidon’s Curse: British Naval Impressment and Atlantic Origins of the American Revolution
by Christopher Magra; Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 2016, ISBN: 9781107112148; 352pp.; Price: £39.99; Reviewer: Professor Paul Gilje, University of Oklahoma
www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/2124?utm_source=Reviews+in+History&utm_campa

Author’s response: www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/2124?utm_source=Revie

[ This message was edited on Thu Jun 15 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10028-324-90.htm, number 127946, was posted on Fri Jun 16 at 05:24:39
Churchill review – Brian Cox's jowl-quivering addition to the cult of Winston

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



3/5stars
   
Cox’s wartime leader is haunted by fears about the Normandy landings in Jonathan Teplitzky’s watchable biopic

‘ . . This drama cloyingly invents a doe-eyed secretary for Winston with a sweetheart among the invading forces whose first name is Arthur, Gawd help us. Well, it’s watchable. Miranda Richardson plays Churchill’s wife, Clemmie, shrewdly: imperious, exasperated, gimlet-eyed.’
[www.theguardian.com/film/2017/jun/14/churchill-film-review-brian-cox-miranda-richardson-john-slattery]

Winston Churchill’s black dog: portraying the ‘greatest Briton’ on screen - As the wartime leader returns to cinemas, the screenwriter reflects on the challenges of portraying Churchill, vulnerabilities and all
[www.theguardian.com/film/2017/jun/09/winston-churchill-black-dog-films-gary-oldman-brian-cox]

Brian Cox: ‘It horrified me when the three amigos, Clegg, Cameron and Miliband, arrived in Scotland’ - The actor explains why he left the Labour party, how putting on weight to play Churchill was more fun than taking it off again afterwards – and why he’ll never be best friends with a certain physicist …
[www.theguardian.com/film/2017/jun/15/brian-cox-it-horrified-me-when-the-three-amigos-clegg-cameron-and-miliband-arrived-in-scotland]


Message 50e5a913p13-10028-337+02.htm, number 127944, was edited on Fri Jun 16 at 05:36:56
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10027-804+03.htm

. . these meagre days were called banyan days . . ‘

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


 photo Screen Shot 2017-06-16 at 10.30.47.png
This has nothing to do with eating banyan fruits (= Indian figs) but derives from the veggie diet of the banyans:

‘banian . .
2. In Bengal: a native-born broker or clerk attached to a European business; (also) a person similarly employed by a private individual.m  Now usually called sircar.
1783   E. Burke Speech Fox's E. India Bill in Wks. (1842) I. 293   Mr. Hastings's bannian was, after this auction, found possessed of territories, etc. . .

. .  banian-day  n. (Naut.) one on which no meat is served out.
1748   T. Smollett Roderick Random I. xxv. 234   On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, the ship's company had no allowance of meat, and..these meagre days were called banyan days . . ‘

(OED)

[ This message was edited on Fri Jun 16 by the author ]


Message 465fd3f38YV-10028-730+05.htm, number 127947, was posted on Fri Jun 16 at 12:10:20
in reply to 4747f48000A-10026-577+07.htm

Re^2:Felicitations of the day!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


A glass of wine with you and hopes for many more!

I also found 'in the coast' particularly jarring.  Perhaps its one of those 'in queue/on gueue' kind of things?


On Wed Jun 14, Grammar Nazi wrote
---------------------------------
>For a professional writer Ms Chavez has a curiously poor grasp of the English language.  Leaving aside minor punctuation problems, the Coast-Guard cutter "battled wars" before "the shipwreck disappeared under water" and is now found "in the coast"—although that last is more probably the fault of the headline writer.

>But it's only CNN; maybe the problem is institutional.

>On Wed Jun 14, Whoreson Beast wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/us/coast-guard-ship-remains/index.html

>>Off Santa Barbara.


Message aeda82c000A-10028-768+5a.htm, number 127948, was posted on Fri Jun 16 at 12:47:55
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10028-324-90.htm

Albert Finney: The most Churchillian Churchill?

Whoreson Beast


en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gathering_Storm_(2002_film)

Message aeda82c000A-10028-775-07.htm, number 127949, was posted on Fri Jun 16 at 12:54:44
Was he hiding in the cable tier?

Whoreson Beast


www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/navy-sailor-missing-one-week-found-alive-onboard-his-ship-n773251

Message 50e5a913p13-10028-794+5a.htm, number 127950, was posted on Fri Jun 16 at 13:14:26
in reply to aeda82c000A-10028-768+5a.htm

Working link

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Jun 16, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gathering_Storm_(2002_film)

Spot the difference:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gathering_Storm_(2002_film


Message 6242b08900A-10028-1256-90.htm, number 127951, was posted on Fri Jun 16 at 20:56:02
All that ocean...USS Fitzgerald collision

YA


Video:
streamable.com/fix0t
Pithy commentary from :
www.reddit.com/r/navy/comments/6hpfl5/us_navy_destroyer_collides_with_merchant_ship/

Message 6c1413d300A-10029-1349+04.htm, number 127952, was posted on Sat Jun 17 at 22:29:18
in reply to 4747f48000A-10026-577+07.htm

Re^2: "Coast Guard ship found after 100 years in US Pacific coast"

Don Seltzer


The whole paragraph is bizarre,

'The long-lost US military ship battled wars and sailed across the Pacific in the late 1800s until it collided with the passenger steamship that carried more than 400 passengers, US Coast Guard and NOAA officials said.'

It conjures up an image of a Flying Dutchman, cruising the waters of the Pacific for years until released from its curse by a passenger ship.



Message 47e54d5c00A-10030-479-07.htm, number 127953, was posted on Sun Jun 18 at 07:59:18
"Hawaii deep sea canoe returns home after global voyage"

Whoreson Beast


www.cnn.com/2017/06/18/us/hawaii-deep-sea-canoe-hokulea-returns/index.html

Now the spear throwing ceremony would be "must see TV"....


Message 50e5a913p13-10030-562-07.htm, number 127954, was posted on Sun Jun 18 at 09:22:05
'What is the meaning of the phrase 'to cut the Gordian knot’?'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference.
 photo 6165571_14544488592128_rId6.jpg
Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195093544%2E013%2E0158 to find the answer . .

Message 47e54d5c00A-10030-1213-07.htm, number 127955, was posted on Sun Jun 18 at 20:12:51
"Pakistan Upsets India to Claim Its First Cricket Champions Trophy"

Willow Hurley Bat


mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/18/sports/pakistan-upsets-india-to-claim-its-first-cricket-champions-trophy.html

Message 4747f4808HW-10030-1345+03.htm, number 127956, was posted on Sun Jun 18 at 22:26:13
in reply to 465fd3f38YV-10028-730+05.htm

Re^3:Curses, my super-secret identity is blown!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


My wife (now, sadly, my ex-wife) used to say "on accident", by derivation from "on purpose".  Although idiomata are idiosyncratic—sort of a tautology—I just feel that's wrong.  I feel the same way about "in the coast":  Sure, maybe each language uses prepositions in different ways that are hard to defend rationally, but as my old Greek teacher used to say, you'll find it a lot easier to learn it than to change it.

I'm reminded of something I read in Linda Ellerbee's book:  

/* In order to write for The A-Team, you'd have to be a much better writer than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations — forget about shows like Hill Street Blues or The Muppet Show, where writing REALLY counts.  -Linda Ellerbee, And So It Goes */

On Fri Jun 16, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>A glass of wine with you and hopes for many more!

>I also found 'in the coast' particularly jarring.  Perhaps its one of those 'in queue/on gueue' kind of things?

>On Wed Jun 14, Grammar Nazi wrote
>---------------------------------
>>For a professional writer Ms Chavez has a curiously poor grasp of the English language.  Leaving aside minor punctuation problems, the Coast-Guard cutter "battled wars" before "the shipwreck disappeared under water" and is now found "in the coast"—although that last is more probably the fault of the headline writer.

>>But it's only CNN; maybe the problem is institutional.

>>On Wed Jun 14, Whoreson Beast wrote
>>-----------------------------------
>>>www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/us/coast-guard-ship-remains/index.html

>>>Off Santa Barbara.


Message 465fd3f38YV-10030-1363+03.htm, number 127957, was posted on Sun Jun 18 at 22:42:51
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10030-1345+03.htm

Re^4:Yes, as a secret that ranked right up there with "Who was that Masked Man?" ;-)

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Sun Jun 18, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>My wife (now, sadly, my ex-wife) used to say "on accident", by derivation from "on purpose".  Although idiomata are idiosyncratic—sort of a tautology—I just feel that's wrong.  I feel the same way about "in the coast":  Sure, maybe each language uses prepositions in different ways that are hard to defend rationally, but as my old Greek teacher used to say, you'll find it a lot easier to learn it than to change it.

>I'm reminded of something I read in Linda Ellerbee's book:  

>/* In order to write for The A-Team, you'd have to be a much better writer than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations — forget about shows like Hill Street Blues or The Muppet Show, where writing REALLY counts.  -Linda Ellerbee, And So It Goes */

>On Fri Jun 16, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>A glass of wine with you and hopes for many more!

>>I also found 'in the coast' particularly jarring.  Perhaps its one of those 'in queue/on gueue' kind of things?

>>On Wed Jun 14, Grammar Nazi wrote
>>---------------------------------
>>>For a professional writer Ms Chavez has a curiously poor grasp of the English language.  Leaving aside minor punctuation problems, the Coast-Guard cutter "battled wars" before "the shipwreck disappeared under water" and is now found "in the coast"—although that last is more probably the fault of the headline writer.

>>>But it's only CNN; maybe the problem is institutional.

>>>On Wed Jun 14, Whoreson Beast wrote
>>>-----------------------------------
>>>>www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/us/coast-guard-ship-remains/index.html

>>>>Off Santa Barbara.


Message 47e54d5c00A-10032-439-07.htm, number 127958, was posted on Tue Jun 20 at 07:18:48
Planning your budget vacation the Enchanted Isles

Whoreson Beast


www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/travel/galapagos-islands-

Looks like they're letting almost anyone in these days....


Message 50e5a913p13-10032-785+05.htm, number 127959, was posted on Tue Jun 20 at 13:05:25
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-10030-1213-07.htm

Re: "Pakistan Upsets India . . "

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


 photo 418F569900000578-4619366-image-a-27_1497905312746.jpg

Taliban suspend hostilities, tribesmen huddle round a TV… the sheer joy of seeing Pakistan rule the world at the Champions Trophy

/A>


Message 47e54d5c00A-10034-447-07.htm, number 127960, was posted on Thu Jun 22 at 07:27:27
Orca v Longliners, and the Orcas are winning.

Skirt of weed


www.adn.com/alaska-news/2017/06/18/in-a-bering-sea-battle-of-killer-whales-vs-fishermen-the-orcas-are-winning/

Message 465fd3f38YV-10035-686+06.htm, number 127961, was posted on Fri Jun 23 at 11:26:07
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-10034-447-07.htm

Re: Good on 'em. Go, Orcas!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Thu Jun 22, Skirt of weed wrote
----------------------------------
>www.adn.com/alaska-news/2017/06/18/in-a-bering-sea-battle-of-killer-whales-vs-fishermen-the-orcas-are-winning/


Message 465afc8d00A-10035-924-07.htm, number 127962, was posted on Fri Jun 23 at 15:23:58
‘Why, now, a sloop, as you know, is properly a one-masted vessel, with a fore-and-aft rig. But in the Navy a sloop may be ship-rigged...."

Whoreson Beast


America's Cup Superyacht races.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=CtaUJzQnGWU&feature=youtu.be

The "super" sloops are plain enough, but one appears to be ship-rigged or perhaps Junk rigged with full width battens.  Perhaps this is the yacht built by one plutocrats of Hewlett-Packard as a square rigger but with servo motors in place of reefers?  Was she "Maltese Falcon"?


Message 47e54d5c00A-10035-1039+07.htm, number 127963, was posted on Fri Jun 23 at 17:18:54
in reply to 465afc8d00A-10035-924-07.htm

and related, Pahi racing and those annoying drones

Whoreson Beast


Perhaps Larry Ellison should have rigged "Oracle" with swivels in the tops.

www.nytimes.com/2017/06/21/sports/sailing/americas-cup-new-zealand-oracl


Message 465fd3f38YV-10036-843+06.htm, number 127964, was posted on Sat Jun 24 at 14:02:54
in reply to 465afc8d00A-10035-924-07.htm

Re: Wait...whaaaat?

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


who, what, how is that thing sailing????  I couldn't find any design information on the Torpedo 7.  Articles mention 'astonishing speed' and 'crew working out in the gym for 6 months' and even a cycle contest...and 'hidden systems'...but I don't even get how its staying above the water surface.  Are the cyclists generating electricity?

Mansplain at will.



On Fri Jun 23, Whoreson Beast wrote
-----------------------------------
>America's Cup Superyacht races.

>m.youtube.com/watch?v=CtaUJzQnGWU&feature=youtu.be

>The "super" sloops are plain enough, but one appears to be ship-rigged or perhaps Junk rigged with full width battens.  Perhaps this is the yacht built by one plutocrats of Hewlett-Packard as a square rigger but with servo motors in place of reefers?  Was she "Maltese Falcon"?


Message 50e5a913p13-10036-905+06.htm, number 127965, was posted on Sat Jun 24 at 15:04:47
in reply to 465fd3f38YV-10036-843+06.htm

Emirates Team Nz Launch Their Fastest Boat Yet (from last June)

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sat Jun 24, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>who, what, how is that thing sailing????  I couldn't find any design information on the Torpedo 7 . .

It’s being kept very hush-hush but this tells us a bit:


emirates-team-new-zealand.americascup.com/en/news/182_EMIRATES-TEAM-NZ-LAUNCH-THEIR-FASTEST-BOAT-YET.html
21.06.16


Message 6242bbc900A-10036-1223+06.htm, number 127966, was posted on Sat Jun 24 at 20:24:27
in reply to 465fd3f38YV-10036-843+06.htm

Hydrofoils

YA


Not just for power craft anymore. Hobie used to have one.
Aldasplanaition at about the 2 minute mark.
youtube.com/watch?v=zXSgZCDVWOM
On Sat Jun 24, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>who, what, how is that thing sailing????  I couldn't find any design information on the Torpedo 7.  Articles mention 'astonishing speed' and 'crew working out in the gym for 6 months' and even a cycle contest...and 'hidden systems'...but I don't even get how its staying above the water surface.  Are the cyclists generating electricity?

>Mansplain at will.
>
>
>
>On Fri Jun 23, Whoreson Beast wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>America's Cup Superyacht races.

>>m.youtube.com/watch?v=CtaUJzQnGWU&feature=youtu.be

>>The "super" sloops are plain enough, but one appears to be ship-rigged or perhaps Junk rigged with full width battens.  Perhaps this is the yacht built by one plutocrats of Hewlett-Packard as a square rigger but with servo motors in place of reefers?  Was she "Maltese Falcon"?


Message 46d308a300A-10037-448+04.htm, number 127967, was posted on Sun Jun 25 at 07:28:42
in reply to 47e54d5c00A-10034-447-07.htm

Re: Orca v Longliners, and the Orcas are winning.

Max



Not always

wapo.st/2oF0iAH?tid=ss_mail-amp




n Thu Jun 22, Skirt of weed wrote
----------------------------------
>www.adn.com/alaska-news/2017/06/18/in-a-bering-sea-battle-of-killer-whales-vs-fishermen-the-orcas-are-winning/


Message 465fd3f38YV-10037-703+05.htm, number 127968, was posted on Sun Jun 25 at 11:42:40
in reply to 6242bbc900A-10036-1223+06.htm

Re: Hydrofoils

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Thanks!  I needed to see the design with the ski in front for it to click.  

On Sat Jun 24, YA wrote
-----------------------
>Not just for power craft anymore. Hobie used to have one.
>Aldasplanaition at about the 2 minute mark.
>youtube.com/watch?v=zXSgZCDVWOM
>On Sat Jun 24, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>who, what, how is that thing sailing????  I couldn't find any design information on the Torpedo 7.  Articles mention 'astonishing speed' and 'crew working out in the gym for 6 months' and even a cycle contest...and 'hidden systems'...but I don't even get how its staying above the water surface.  Are the cyclists generating electricity?

>>Mansplain at will.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri Jun 23, Whoreson Beast wrote
>>-----------------------------------
>>>America's Cup Superyacht races.

>>>m.youtube.com/watch?v=CtaUJzQnGWU&feature=youtu.be

>>>The "super" sloops are plain enough, but one appears to be ship-rigged or perhaps Junk rigged with full width battens.  Perhaps this is the yacht built by one plutocrats of Hewlett-Packard as a square rigger but with servo motors in place of reefers?  Was she "Maltese Falcon"?


Message 47e54d5c00A-10037-1200-07.htm, number 127969, was posted on Sun Jun 25 at 19:59:44
"Why Do Bird Eggs Have Different Shapes? Look to the Wings". "NYT"

Whoreson Beast


www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/science/bird-eggs-shapes-flight.html?hpw&rref=science&ac

Message 56003e2600A-10038-593+50.htm, number 127970, was posted on Mon Jun 26 at 09:53:08
in reply to aeda82c000A-10028-768+5a.htm

Finney was brilliant.

The Serpents of Various Malignity


He looked far more like Churchill than John Lithgow in The Crown, or Timothy Spall at the opening of the Olympics. I'd love to see that one again.

Message 56003e2600A-10038-975-90.htm, number 127971, was posted on Mon Jun 26 at 16:15:00
Who on earth wants a blundering great first-rate, with not the slightest chance of an independent cruise?,

The Tall, Handsome Pillared Octagon


HMS Queen Elizabeth sets sail, the largest Royal Navy ship of all time, and the first aircraft carrier since Ark Royal was scrapped.

HMS Queen Elizabeth sets sail from Rosyth for sea trials


Message 50e5a913p13-10050-858-90.htm, number 127972, was posted on Sat Jul 8 at 14:17:58
An affordable present for the ‘Forumite who has everything’‘

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'Patrick O'Brian: Critical Essays and a Bibliography
FIRST EDITION 1994     · New York by O'BRIAN, PATRICK
New York: W. W. Norton, 1994.

First Edition. Fine in dark blue cloth covered boards with gilt text stamping on the spine with minor dust staining to the top edge of the text block. An octavo measuring 9" by 6" with the "erratum" slip laid-in at the front of the book. In a fine dust jacket with the price intact on the front flap. Edited by A. E. Cunningham. Numerous essays by critics, historians and admirers including Charlton Heston as well as a thorough bibliography.'

[www.abaa.org/book/992266648]


Message 50e5a913p13-10051-393-90.htm, number 127973, was posted on Sun Jul 9 at 06:33:29
Whose English is it anyway?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Note the Queen’s any more:

‘ . . But just at the point when he is in danger of conflating too many things, of appearing like an old fizzle out of step with modern times, (Martin Engels) finds a reason to be cheerful. In the autumn of 2013, the head teacher of a secondary school in Upper Norwood, insisted that her students could no longer use a list of banned words including “basically”, “bare” and “extra”. Apparently, these are all part of “multicultural London English”, or MLE*, a polyglot of black British vernacular garnished with some white working-class slang, British South Asian phrases and the occasional dash of Polish and Somali.

The head teacher was worried that, by persisting in using MLE, her students were spoiling their chances at job and college interviews. Unless they could learn to talk proper – talk in Americanised English in other words – they risked exiling themselves from the modern world. But to Engel’s jaded ears MLE is glorious evidence of a youthful resistance to imported ready-made language in favour of something authentic and home-brewed. Never has “innit” sounded quite so close to poetry.

• That’s the Way It Crumbles is published by Profile. To order a copy for £14.44 (RRP £16.99) go to bookshop.theguardian.com or call 0330 333 6846. Free UK p&p over £10, online orders only. Phone orders min p&p of £1.99.’

[www.theguardian.com/books/2017/jul/08/thats-way-it-crumbles-matthew-engel-review]

* . . a sociolect of English that emerged in the late 20th century. It is spoken authentically by working-class, mainly young, people in London . .  it can contain elements from "learners’ varieties of English, Englishes from the Indian subcontinent and Africa, Caribbean creoles and Englishes along with their indigenised London versions (Sebba 1993), local London and south-eastern vernacular varieties of English, local and international youth slang, as well as more levelled and standard-like varieties from various sources." . . ‘ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicultural_London_English
……………
See also:

‘Today we speak of "BBC English" as a standard form of the language, but this form had to be invented by a small team in the 1920s & 30s. 1 . .  ’

twitter.com/nick_kapur/status/ - a tweetstorm!


Message 50e5a913p13-10051-723+4d.htm, number 127974, was posted on Sun Jul 9 at 12:03:08
in reply to 56003e2600A-10038-975-90.htm

'Britain’s new aircraft carrier may be a vast folly — but it still provokes awe'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



Ian Jack writes: As a little admiral growing up on the Firth of Forth, I caught the naval bug – and the awkward truth is, it’s still with me . . When HMS Queen Elizabeth left Rosyth for her sea trials on Monday, I remembered my days as a little admiral and considered how some of my enthusiasms that were formed during that short-trousered age have never completely left me.

This is an awkward residue of interest. It can lead to a protective attitude towards what the military historian Max Hastings, writing this week in the Daily Mail, described as “giant embarrassments … symbols of almost everything that is wrong with British defence policy”. He has a good case. The aircraft carrier and her yet-to-be-completed sister, HMS Prince of Wales, are the largest ships ever built for the Royal Navy, costing a total of £6.2bn. Their complicated construction – six shipyards spread throughout Britain supplied the “blocks” or modules that were welded together in Rosyth – suggest that their purpose was as much about jobs in Labour constituencies as about fulfilling a grand naval strategy . .

(The) ship runs on outdated software (Microsoft Windows XP) and will take far fewer aircraft (the Lockheed Martin F35) than originally planned. Also, big ships are vulnerable unless heavily defended. This week a spokesman for the Russian defence ministry, reacting to some boastful remark by Fallon, said that the HMS Queen Elizabeth amounted to “nothing more than a huge, easy naval target”.

It is, apart from all that, a disappointingly ugly ship. Nonetheless, Britain managed to build it. That fact alone deserves a cheer from the little admirals who still survive in so many of us

[www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/30/new-aircraft-carrier-hms-queen-elizabeth-royal-navy]


Message 6cab80b4b8G-10052-347+4c.htm, number 127975, was posted on Mon Jul 10 at 05:47:32
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10051-723+4d.htm

Re: 'Britain’s new aircraft carrier may be a vast folly — but it still provokes awe'

Victor
rms.carmania@gmail.com


Very amusing piece - but still complete shilo...

"six shipyards spread throughout Britain supplied the “blocks” or modules that were welded together in Rosyth – suggest that their purpose was as much about jobs in Labour constituencies as about fulfilling a grand naval strategy . . "

Since all shipyards in the UK are in Labour constituencies this does not explain why the carriers were ordered or built. These yards could easily have been kept busy building more Type 45s, Type 26s or Astute submarines (or some smaller flat top(s)).

"(The) ship runs on outdated software (Microsoft Windows XP)"

This is simply not true.

"and will take far fewer aircraft (the Lockheed Martin F35) than originally planned."

What does this mean? The ship can take as many aircraft as you could fit into or onto it (and continue to operate) and take to war. What he should have stated is that on routine deployments (not war situations) the ship will carry fewer F-35s than originally envisaged. The MoD has already confirmed that they intend to order all the F-35Bs originally planned - so in a war situation the carrier is capable of operating the maximum number of aircraft that space or contingency allows...

"Also, big ships are vulnerable unless heavily defended. This week a spokesman for the Russian defence ministry, reacting to some boastful remark by Fallon, said that the HMS Queen Elizabeth amounted to “nothing more than a huge, easy naval target”."

This is simply stating the bleeding obvious. The same applies to the aircraft carriers of the Russian, Chinese, Indian, French and US Navies. Aircraft Carriers will rely (mostly) on its own fighter aircraft and the medium/long-range missiles of its designated escort(s) (such as the Type 45 or 'Arleigh Burke') for air defence. The Queen Elizabeth is no-more vulnerable to the latest anti-ship weaponry than any other aircraft carrier...

"It is, apart from all that, a disappointingly ugly ship."

I have to agree with him there. However, beauty (as always) is in the eye of the beholder. Aircraft Carriers will never win prizes for aesthetics - the twin island layout is also unusual compared to the more traditional single island design that we are all used to seeing - it also has a 'hump' (the ski ramp) which is a result of choosing to operate the VSTOL version of the F-35 rather than the CATOBAR variant.


Message 6bd5c1a400A-10053-642-30.htm, number 127976, was posted on Tue Jul 11 at 10:42:07
Potential Air Crafts Collision

Lee Shore


As bad as the destroyer and cargo ship colliding was, imagine if this collision had occurred.  Hats off to a sharp San Francisco Air Traffic Controller and pilots on the taxiway for catching this in time.

www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/10/exclusive-sfo-near-miss-might-have-triggered-greatest-aviation-disaster-in-history/


Message 4086b52800A-10053-1210-07.htm, number 127977, was posted on Tue Jul 11 at 20:10:42
"Did a Huge Glowing Sea Creature Help Push the U.S. into the Vietnam War?" "The Atlantic"

Whoreson Beast


www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/07/giant-pyrosomes-vietnam-war/532893/?utm_source=nl-atlantic-daily-071117

Message 4747f4808HW-10054-533-30.htm, number 127978, was posted on Wed Jul 12 at 08:52:46
Seen on Facebook

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com



Message 419ec81e00A-10054-668+1e.htm, number 127979, was posted on Wed Jul 12 at 11:08:31
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10054-533-30.htm

Re: Seen on Facebook

Max


Two right


On Wed Jul 12, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>

Message aeda053c00A-10054-683-07.htm, number 127980, was posted on Wed Jul 12 at 11:22:49
A large ice sheet upon which one may beat off their rudder.

Whoreson Beast


www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/iceberg-about-size-delaware-breaks-antarctica-n782096

Message 43b4af28cYC-10054-724+1d.htm, number 127981, was posted on Wed Jul 12 at 12:03:41
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-10053-642-30.htm

Re: Potential Air Crafts Collision

Windguy
klcousineau@veriozn.net


I am always amazed at the ignorance of reporters, especially when it comes to the interaction between Air Traffic Control (ATC) and Pilots. After reading the article it appears that our commercial aircraft are actually controlled and flown by people on the ground called air traffic controllers. That is simply and totally wrong. It is the pilots who both fly and control the aircraft. In this case the pilot would certainly have recognized that the "runway" (actually a taxiway) was filled with other aircraft and then realized his mistake, and taken the correct action -- called a "go around," where he simply elects to abort to landing and go around for another try.The pilot is not blind and sits in the front of the aircraft for a very good reason -- totally ignored by the reporter of this story.

Then again I guess a reporter who never flew in a cockpit with a pilot should be given some lee way -- or perhaps not since they should do their research before publishing?

Guess if there is no news we get to make up a possible story that could have happened. How about the pilot who landed on our local freeway a few miles away last week, when his engine quite right after takeoff from our local airport. ATC was little help, they don't have spare engines to through at the airplane and essentially its all of to the "pilot in command." This guy did the right thing and brought it down safely on the freeway with no injuries to anyone. That makes for a good news story -- or at least a factual one.

Wind guy  


Tue Jul 11, Lee Shore wrote
------------------------------
>As bad as the destroyer and cargo ship colliding was, imagine if this collision had occurred.  Hats off to a sharp San Francisco Air Traffic Controller and pilots on the taxiway for catching this in time.

>www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/10/exclusive-sfo-near-miss-might-have-triggered-greatest-aviation-disaster-in-history/


Message 50e5a913p13-10054-826+07.htm, number 127982, was posted on Wed Jul 12 at 13:46:31
in reply to aeda053c00A-10054-683-07.htm

'Oh what did Del-a-ware boy, what did Delaware . . ‘ ?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Non-North Amercian Forumites, like me unable to find Delalware on a map and ignorant of its evidently small size, may finnd this Brithjs account mmore helpful, particularly as it comes with a helpful video:

Iceberg twice size of Luxembourg breaks off Antarctic ice shelf - Satellite data confirms ‘calving’ of trillion-tonne, 5,800 sq km iceberg from the Larsen C ice shelf, dramatically altering the landscape
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/12/giant-antarctic-iceberg-breaks-free-of-larsen-c-ice-shelf

All I know about Delaware is that it inspired a pop song of my youth, still played occasionally today:

Oh what did Del-a-ware boy, what did Delaware
What did Del-a-ware boy, what did Delaware
She wore a brand New Jersey,
She wore a brand New Jersey,
She wore a brand New Jersey,
That's what she did wear .  .

And that someone or other crossed it on some famous occasion or other . .


Message 46d1c1da00A-10054-1203+07.htm, number 127983, was posted on Wed Jul 12 at 20:02:45
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10054-826+07.htm

Re: 'Oh what did Del-a-ware boy, what did Delaware . . ‘ ?

Mac



Q: What did Dela ware to the Iditarod?
A: I don't know but alaska.




n Wed Jul 12, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Non-North Amercian Forumites, like me unable to find Delalware on a map and ignorant of its evidently small size, may finnd this Brithjs account mmore helpful, particularly as it comes with a helpful video:

>Iceberg twice size of Luxembourg breaks off Antarctic ice shelf - Satellite data confirms ‘calving’ of trillion-tonne, 5,800 sq km iceberg from the Larsen C ice shelf, dramatically altering the landscape
>www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/12/giant-antarctic-ice
>What did Del-a-ware boy, what did Delaware
>She wore a brand New Jersey,
>She wore a brand New Jersey,
>She wore a brand New Jersey,
>That's what she did wear .  .

>And that someone or other crossed it on some famous occasion or other . .


Message 50e5a913p13-10055-391+06.htm, number 127984, was posted on Thu Jul 13 at 06:30:49
in reply to aeda053c00A-10054-683-07.htm

A Professor of Glaciology writes . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


I’ve studied Larsen C and its giant iceberg for years – it’s not a simple story of climate change

Adrian Luckman*: One of the largest icebergs ever recorded has just broken away from the Larsen C Ice Shelf in Antarctica. Over the past few years I’ve led a team that has been studying this ice shelf and monitoring change. We spent many weeks camped on the ice investigating melt ponds and their impact – and struggling to avoid sunburn thanks to the thin ozone layer. Our main approach, however, is to use satellites to keep an eye on things.

We’ve been surprised by the level of interest in what may simply be a rare but natural occurrence. Because, despite the media and public fascination, the Larsen C rift and iceberg “calving” is not a warning of imminent sea level rise, and any link to climate change is far from straightforward. This event is, however, a spectacular episode in the recent history of Antarctica’s ice shelves, involving forces beyond the human scale, in a place where few of us have been, and one which will fundamentally change the geography of this region . .

. . This event has also been widely but over-simplistically linked to climate change. This is not surprising because notable changes in the earth’s glaciers and ice sheets are normally associated with rising environmental temperatures. The collapses of Larsen A and B have previously been linked to regional warming, and the iceberg calving will leave Larsen C at its most retreated position in records going back over a hundred years.

However, in satellite images from the 1980s, the rift was already clearly a long-established feature, and there is no direct evidence to link its recent growth to either atmospheric warming, which is not felt deep enough within the ice shelf, or ocean warming, which is an unlikely source of change given that most of Larsen C has recently been thickening. It is probably too early to blame this event directly on human-generated climate change.

* Professor of Glaciology and Remote Sensing, Swansea University, Wales, UK

reaction.life/ive-studied-larsen-c-giant-iceberg-years-not-simple-story-climate-change/


Message 4747f4808HW-10055-718+1c.htm, number 127985, was posted on Thu Jul 13 at 11:58:01
in reply to 43b4af28cYC-10054-724+1d.htm

Re^2: Potential Air Crafts Collision

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Not the Grammar Nazi speaking this time:  As I get older I notice odd mistakes in my writing.  I can't call them typos—I still make those, where my finger skips a key or hits a key next to the one I meant.  Those we understand.  But when I proofread I sometimes find that I've typed an entirely different word from the one I intended, a homophone or one that rhymes or even something more different.  I can't blame those on my fingers; they typed exactly the word my brain sent them.  So I type "now" for "not" ("I am now trying to be insulting"), "acting" for "action" (the -ing and -ion endings have become especially treacherous for me these days), sometimes even "it's" for "its", which is just plain embarrassing.

So Windguy, I'm pleased to see it's not just me.

Is it advancing age, do you think?  Have I always done it and it just took me a while to notice it?  The happiest explanation is that as my mind takes on more and more knowledge, the risk of spontaneous cross-indexing increases.

On Wed Jul 12, Windguy wrote
----------------------------
>I am always amazed at the ignorance of reporters, especially when it comes to the interaction between Air Traffic Control (ATC) and Pilots. After reading the article it appears that our commercial aircraft are actually controlled and flown by people on the ground called air traffic controllers. That is simply and totally wrong. It is the pilots who both fly and control the aircraft. In this case the pilot would certainly have recognized that the "runway" (actually a taxiway) was filled with other aircraft and then realized his mistake, and taken the correct action -- called a "go around," where he simply elects to abort to landing and go around for another try.The pilot is not blind and sits in the front of the aircraft for a very good reason -- totally ignored by the reporter of this story.

>Then again I guess a reporter who never flew in a cockpit with a pilot should be given some lee way -- or perhaps not since they should do their research before publishing?

>Guess if there is no news we get to make up a possible story that could have happened. How about the pilot who landed on our local freeway a few miles away last week, when his engine quite right after takeoff from our local airport. ATC was little help, they don't have spare engines to through at the airplane and essentially its all of to the "pilot in command." This guy did the right thing and brought it down safely on the freeway with no injuries to anyone. That makes for a good news story -- or at least a factual one.

> Tue Jul 11, Lee Shore wrote
>------------------------------
>>As bad as the destroyer and cargo ship colliding was, imagine if this collision had occurred.  Hats off to a sharp San Francisco Air Traffic Controller and pilots on the taxiway for catching this in time.

>>www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/10/exclusive-sfo-near-miss-might-have-triggered-greatest-aviation-disaster-in-history/


Message 43b4af28cYC-10055-864+1c.htm, number 127986, was posted on Thu Jul 13 at 14:29:22
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10055-718+1c.htm

Re^3: Potential Air Crafts Collision

Windguy
klcousineau@veriozn.net


Yes you have me Bob. I think it was more of trying to stay focused on what I was typing and not on the bigger picture -- editing and grammar and the like. I don't think it has anything to do with getting old -- I am better at writing now then when I was younger, but the grammar is always a problem. My wife, as a retired newspaper editor usually looks over my stuff but often I just wing it here on this site -- probably not the best idea!



On Thu Jul 13, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Not the Grammar Nazi speaking this time:  As I get older I notice odd mistakes in my writing.  I can't call them typos—I still make those, where my finger skips a key or hits a key next to the one I meant.  Those we understand.  But when I proofread I sometimes find that I've typed an entirely different word from the one I intended, a homophone or one that rhymes or even something more different.  I can't blame those on my fingers; they typed exactly the word my brain sent them.  So I type "now" for "not" ("I am now trying to be insulting"), "acting" for "action" (the -ing and -ion endings have become especially treacherous for me these days), sometimes even "it's" for "its", which is just plain embarrassing.

>So Windguy, I'm pleased to see it's not just me.

>Is it advancing age, do you think?  Have I always done it and it just took me a while to notice it?  The happiest explanation is that as my mind takes on more and more knowledge, the risk of spontaneous cross-indexing increases.

>On Wed Jul 12, Windguy wrote
>----------------------------
>>I am always amazed at the ignorance of reporters, especially when it comes to the interaction between Air Traffic Control (ATC) and Pilots. After reading the article it appears that our commercial aircraft are actually controlled and flown by people on the ground called air traffic controllers. That is simply and totally wrong. It is the pilots who both fly and control the aircraft. In this case the pilot would certainly have recognized that the "runway" (actually a taxiway) was filled with other aircraft and then realized his mistake, and taken the correct action -- called a "go around," where he simply elects to abort to landing and go around for another try.The pilot is not blind and sits in the front of the aircraft for a very good reason -- totally ignored by the reporter of this story.

>>Then again I guess a reporter who never flew in a cockpit with a pilot should be given some lee way -- or perhaps not since they should do their research before publishing?

>>Guess if there is no news we get to make up a possible story that could have happened. How about the pilot who landed on our local freeway a few miles away last week, when his engine quite right after takeoff from our local airport. ATC was little help, they don't have spare engines to through at the airplane and essentially its all of to the "pilot in command." This guy did the right thing and brought it down safely on the freeway with no injuries to anyone. That makes for a good news story -- or at least a factual one.

>> Tue Jul 11, Lee Shore wrote
>>------------------------------
>>>As bad as the destroyer and cargo ship colliding was, imagine if this collision had occurred.  Hats off to a sharp San Francisco Air Traffic Controller and pilots on the taxiway for catching this in time.

>>>www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/10/exclusive-sfo-near-miss-might-have-triggered-greatest-aviation-disaster-in-history/


Message 50e5a913p13-10056-792-07.htm, number 127987, was posted on Fri Jul 14 at 13:12:15
‘Which nineteenth-century novel opens with the words, 'Call me Ishmael'?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference - an easy one for Forumites. Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199990009%2E013%2E5521 to find the answer.

Message 4747f4808HW-10056-1001-30.htm, number 127988, was posted on Fri Jul 14 at 16:42:57
Quantum entanglement: details?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I was excitedly informed at least a dozen times Wednesday-or-was-it-Tuesday? that the Chinese have successfully changed the state of an entangled photon and watched its partner (so to speak) 500 miles up change state along with it.  The word "teleportation" was used in most of those articles, which I scornfully ignore.  But in a follow-up article today I read that they tried it a million times over 32 days, and were successful 911 times.

Which tells me I have not properly understood what's going on.  What I had thought is that someone creates a pair of entangled particles, call them E and O.  The second particle is moved to the Chinese facility in orbit about 500 miles above the earth.  Someone on earth changes the state of E, and an observer notices that the state of O changes to match at the same time.

Wednesday night I met an old church friend for dinner and had a long debate over this.  At the time we were focused on simultaneity, and it was my thesis that in order to know that O's change instantly followed E's, they had to have synchronized clocks*.  We also discussed the implications for communication by ansible:  For that to work, you'd have to ship millions of entangled bits from E to O, and each bit would have to be addressable, which we're certainly not ready to do yet.

But in this case apparently they did have a million bits at each end, and they were addressable...if my picture was accurate.  So I must be wrong about their method.  Start back at the beginning:  Can anyone tell me how you a) create two entangled bits and then b) separate them by distance?  I don't have a really scientific forum to hang out at, but it's been remarked before what a broad range of knowledge we have here so maybe...?


* About synchronized clocks: Yes, I understand that relativity denies the concept of simultaneity.  I maintain the possibility of synchronicity, nevertheless, on two grounds:  1) If it's true that particles O and E changed simultaneously, that doesn't violate the speed of light because nothing has traveled from E to O.  No violation of c, therefore no violation of the ban on simultaneity.  2) If you insist on forbidding simultaneity (as my friend did) despite the fact that this case doesn't affect c, it's still alright:  We can synchronize clocks practically speaking (close enough for government work) as follows:  Calibrate clock E on earth to run accurately under 1g.  Calibrate clock O in orbit to run accurately in free fall.  Calculate td as the time it takes light to travel from E to O.  At time t, send a tick from E to O.  Set clock O to t minus td.  From then on, clocks E and O are synchronized, practically speaking.  If td is, say, 5e-2s and particle O changed its step 1e-12s after particle E, then simultaneity notwithstanding we know the effect is essentially simultaneous—at any rate it certainly exceeds c.


Message 4747f4808HW-10056-1007+1b.htm, number 127989, was posted on Fri Jul 14 at 16:47:40
in reply to 43b4af28cYC-10055-864+1c.htm

Oh, I wasn't trying to "get" you

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


As I said, I do it increasingly often.  I'm just pondering the mechanism by which it may happen.  I don't buy it as a matter of grammar; it's not grammatical mistakes I see, either below or in my writing, but word substitutions—and words that are related not by key placement, nor (usually) by meaning, but by syllable count and the first letter or three.  Something is happening in the brain, but it isn't mere faulty understanding of the language; as you say, your writing is better now that ever.

Curious, that's all; it's curious.

On Thu Jul 13, Windguy wrote
----------------------------
>Yes you have me Bob. I think it was more of trying to stay focused on what I was typing and not on the bigger picture -- editing and grammar and the like. I don't think it has anything to do with getting old -- I am better at writing now then when I was younger, but the grammar is always a problem. My wife, as a retired newspaper editor usually looks over my stuff but often I just wing it here on this site -- probably not the best idea!

>On Thu Jul 13, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Not the Grammar Nazi speaking this time:  As I get older I notice odd mistakes in my writing.  I can't call them typos—I still make those, where my finger skips a key or hits a key next to the one I meant.  Those we understand.  But when I proofread I sometimes find that I've typed an entirely different word from the one I intended, a homophone or one that rhymes or even something more different.  I can't blame those on my fingers; they typed exactly the word my brain sent them.  So I type "now" for "not" ("I am now trying to be insulting"), "acting" for "action" (the -ing and -ion endings have become especially treacherous for me these days), sometimes even "it's" for "its", which is just plain embarrassing.

>>So Windguy, I'm pleased to see it's not just me.

>>Is it advancing age, do you think?  Have I always done it and it just took me a while to notice it?  The happiest explanation is that as my mind takes on more and more knowledge, the risk of spontaneous cross-indexing increases.

>>On Wed Jul 12, Windguy wrote
>>----------------------------
>>>I am always amazed at the ignorance of reporters, especially when it comes to the interaction between Air Traffic Control (ATC) and Pilots. After reading the article it appears that our commercial aircraft are actually controlled and flown by people on the ground called air traffic controllers. That is simply and totally wrong. It is the pilots who both fly and control the aircraft. In this case the pilot would certainly have recognized that the "runway" (actually a taxiway) was filled with other aircraft and then realized his mistake, and taken the correct action -- called a "go around," where he simply elects to abort to landing and go around for another try.The pilot is not blind and sits in the front of the aircraft for a very good reason -- totally ignored by the reporter of this story.

>>>Then again I guess a reporter who never flew in a cockpit with a pilot should be given some lee way -- or perhaps not since they should do their research before publishing?

>>>Guess if there is no news we get to make up a possible story that could have happened. How about the pilot who landed on our local freeway a few miles away last week, when his engine quite right after takeoff from our local airport. ATC was little help, they don't have spare engines to through at the airplane and essentially its all of to the "pilot in command." This guy did the right thing and brought it down safely on the freeway with no injuries to anyone. That makes for a good news story -- or at least a factual one.

>>> Tue Jul 11, Lee Shore wrote
>>>------------------------------
>>>>As bad as the destroyer and cargo ship colliding was, imagine if this collision had occurred.  Hats off to a sharp San Francisco Air Traffic Controller and pilots on the taxiway for catching this in time.

>>>>www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/10/exclusive-sfo-near-miss-might-have-triggered-greatest-aviation-disaster-in-history/


Message 4747f4808HW-10056-1001+1e.htm, number 127988, was edited on Fri Jul 14 at 21:08:02
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-10056-1001-30.htm

Quantum entanglement: details? [Later: Oh, and furthermore...]

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I was excitedly informed at least a dozen times Wednesday-or-was-it-Tuesday? that the Chinese have successfully changed the state of an entangled photon and watched its partner (so to speak) 500 miles up change state along with it.  The word "teleportation" was used in most of those articles, which I scornfully ignore.  But in a follow-up article today I read that they tried it a million times over 32 days, and were successful 911 times.

Which tells me I have not properly understood what's going on.  What I had thought is that someone creates a pair of entangled particles, call them E and O.  The second particle is moved to the Chinese facility in orbit about 500 miles above the earth.  Someone on earth changes the state of E, and an observer notices that the state of O changes to match at the same time.

Wednesday night I met an old church friend for dinner and had a long debate over this.  At the time we were focused on simultaneity, and it was my thesis that in order to know that O's change instantly followed E's, they had to have synchronized clocks*.  We also discussed the implications for communication by ansible:  For that to work, you'd have to ship millions of entangled bits from E to O, and each bit would have to be addressable, which we're certainly not ready to do yet.

But in this case apparently they did have a million bits at each end, and they were addressable...if my picture was accurate.  So I must be wrong about their method.  Start back at the beginning:  Can anyone tell me how you a) create two entangled bits and then b) separate them by distance?  I don't have a really scientific forum to hang out at, but it's been remarked before what a broad range of knowledge we have here so maybe...?

[Some hours later:] I forgot to add that, depending on your answer to the above question, the next step may be to wonder why 0.1% success is considered, well, successful.  If you change the state of particle E and the state of particle O changes only every thousandth time, what are we to believe is proven?


* About synchronized clocks: Yes, I understand that relativity denies the concept of simultaneity.  I maintain the possibility of synchronicity, nevertheless, on two grounds:  1) If it's true that particles O and E changed simultaneously, that doesn't violate the speed of light because nothing has traveled from E to O.  No violation of c, therefore no violation of the ban on simultaneity.  2) If you insist on forbidding simultaneity (as my friend did) despite the fact that this case doesn't affect c, it's still alright:  We can synchronize clocks practically speaking (close enough for government work) as follows:  Calibrate clock E on earth to run accurately under 1g.  Calibrate clock O in orbit to run accurately in free fall.  Calculate td as the time it takes light to travel from E to O.  At time t, send a tick from E to O.  Set clock O to t minus td.  From then on, clocks E and O are synchronized, practically speaking.  If td is, say, 5e-2s and particle O changed its step 1e-12s after particle E, then simultaneity notwithstanding we know the effect is essentially simultaneous—at any rate it certainly exceeds c.

[ This message was edited on Fri Jul 14 by the author ]


Message 47e54d5c00A-10057-451+04.htm, number 127990, was posted on Sat Jul 15 at 07:31:27
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10055-391+06.htm

1 Gelderland = 1 Delaware = 2 Luxembourg

Whoreson Beast


qz.com/1027701/two-luxembourgs-10-madrids-one-delaware-how-a-giant-iceberg-in-antarctica-is-described-around-the-world/?mc_cid=077aedcc63&mc_eid=7bdf330d5e

Message 43b4af28cYC-10057-789+1a.htm, number 127991, was posted on Sat Jul 15 at 13:09:13
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10056-1007+1b.htm

Re: Oh, I wasn't trying to "get" you

Windguy
klcousineau@veriozn.net


It is Bob. Like the paragraph where every word is misspelled except for the first and last letter -- and it is still perfectly readable. Our brains tell us in advance what to expect and it is why we often take the meaning of a particular sentence differently than what the writer thought he was saying. I can read something I wrote over and over and always miss one or two things that my wife can find in an instant. I simply gloss over that word -- it passes through my eye, my brain and registers as correct when in fact it was not correct. Only when I leave it for 24 hours or more and then come back and read it a second time will I have any chance of finding that error. Our ability to "see" everything that is in front of us is not 100% -- we miss things because our brains seem to filter stuff out. Why some things get filtered and others do not -- well that the curious part for me.



On Fri Jul 14, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>As I said, I do it increasingly often.  I'm just pondering the mechanism by which it may happen.  I don't buy it as a matter of grammar; it's not grammatical mistakes I see, either below or in my writing, but word substitutions—and words that are related not by key placement, nor (usually) by meaning, but by syllable count and the first letter or three.  Something is happening in the brain, but it isn't mere faulty understanding of the language; as you say, your writing is better now that ever.

>Curious, that's all; it's curious.

>On Thu Jul 13, Windguy wrote
>----------------------------
>>Yes you have me Bob. I think it was more of trying to stay focused on what I was typing and not on the bigger picture -- editing and grammar and the like. I don't think it has anything to do with getting old -- I am better at writing now then when I was younger, but the grammar is always a problem. My wife, as a retired newspaper editor usually looks over my stuff but often I just wing it here on this site -- probably not the best idea!

>>On Thu Jul 13, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>Not the Grammar Nazi speaking this time:  As I get older I notice odd mistakes in my writing.  I can't call them typos—I still make those, where my finger skips a key or hits a key next to the one I meant.  Those we understand.  But when I proofread I sometimes find that I've typed an entirely different word from the one I intended, a homophone or one that rhymes or even something more different.  I can't blame those on my fingers; they typed exactly the word my brain sent them.  So I type "now" for "not" ("I am now trying to be insulting"), "acting" for "action" (the -ing and -ion endings have become especially treacherous for me these days), sometimes even "it's" for "its", which is just plain embarrassing.

>>>So Windguy, I'm pleased to see it's not just me.

>>>Is it advancing age, do you think?  Have I always done it and it just took me a while to notice it?  The happiest explanation is that as my mind takes on more and more knowledge, the risk of spontaneous cross-indexing increases.

>>>On Wed Jul 12, Windguy wrote
>>>----------------------------
>>>>I am always amazed at the ignorance of reporters, especially when it comes to the interaction between Air Traffic Control (ATC) and Pilots. After reading the article it appears that our commercial aircraft are actually controlled and flown by people on the ground called air traffic controllers. That is simply and totally wrong. It is the pilots who both fly and control the aircraft. In this case the pilot would certainly have recognized that the "runway" (actually a taxiway) was filled with other aircraft and then realized his mistake, and taken the correct action -- called a "go around," where he simply elects to abort to landing and go around for another try.The pilot is not blind and sits in the front of the aircraft for a very good reason -- totally ignored by the reporter of this story.

>>>>Then again I guess a reporter who never flew in a cockpit with a pilot should be given some lee way -- or perhaps not since they should do their research before publishing?

>>>>Guess if there is no news we get to make up a possible story that could have happened. How about the pilot who landed on our local freeway a few miles away last week, when his engine quite right after takeoff from our local airport. ATC was little help, they don't have spare engines to through at the airplane and essentially its all of to the "pilot in command." This guy did the right thing and brought it down safely on the freeway with no injuries to anyone. That makes for a good news story -- or at least a factual one.

>>>> Tue Jul 11, Lee Shore wrote
>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>As bad as the destroyer and cargo ship colliding was, imagine if this collision had occurred.  Hats off to a sharp San Francisco Air Traffic Controller and pilots on the taxiway for catching this in time.

>>>>>www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/10/exclusive-sfo-near-miss-might-have-triggered-greatest-aviation-disaster-in-history/


Message 6cadb27dgpf-10057-975+1d.htm, number 127992, was posted on Sat Jul 15 at 16:14:47
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10056-1001+1e.htm

Re: Quantum entanglement: details? [Later: Oh, and furthermore...]

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Bob, I'm afraid I can't comment usefully on this intriguing topic, not being one of your philosophical gents; however, you deserve a response, having expressed yourself so well. Thank you! I appreciate the effort it takes to engage in such inquiry and to express it here as you do.



On Fri Jul 14, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I was excitedly informed at least a dozen times Wednesday-or-was-it-Tuesday? that the Chinese have successfully changed the state of an entangled photon and watched its partner (so to speak) 500 miles up change state along with it.  The word "teleportation" was used in most of those articles, which I scornfully ignore.  But in a follow-up article today I read that they tried it a million times over 32 days, and were successful 911 times.

>Which tells me I have not properly understood what's going on.  What I had thought is that someone creates a pair of entangled particles, call them E and O.  The second particle is moved to the Chinese facility in orbit about 500 miles above the earth.  Someone on earth changes the state of E, and an observer notices that the state of O changes to match at the same time.

>Wednesday night I met an old church friend for dinner and had a long debate over this.  At the time we were focused on simultaneity, and it was my thesis that in order to know that O's change instantly followed E's, they had to have synchronized clocks*.  We also discussed the implications for communication by ansible:  For that to work, you'd have to ship millions of entangled bits from E to O, and each bit would have to be addressable, which we're certainly not ready to do yet.

>But in this case apparently they did have a million bits at each end, and they were addressable...if my picture was accurate.  So I must be wrong about their method.  Start back at the beginning:  Can anyone tell me how you a) create two entangled bits and then b) separate them by distance?  I don't have a really scientific forum to hang out at, but it's been remarked before what a broad range of knowledge we have here so maybe...?

>[Some hours later:] I forgot to add that, depending on your answer to the above question, the next step may be to wonder why 0.1% success is considered, well, successful.  If you change the state of particle E and the state of particle O changes only every thousandth time, what are we to believe is proven?
>
>
>* About synchronized clocks: Yes, I understand that relativity denies the concept of simultaneity.  I maintain the possibility of synchronicity, nevertheless, on two grounds:  1) If it's true that particles O and E changed simultaneously, that doesn't violate the speed of light because nothing has traveled from E to O.  No violation of c, therefore no violation of the ban on simultaneity.  2) If you insist on forbidding simultaneity (as my friend did) despite the fact that this case doesn't affect c, it's still alright:  We can synchronize clocks practically speaking (close enough for government work) as follows:  Calibrate clock E on earth to run accurately under 1g.  Calibrate clock O in orbit to run accurately in free fall.  Calculate td as the time it takes light to travel from E to O.  At time t, send a tick from E to O.  Set clock O to t minus td.  From then on, clocks E and O are synchronized, practically speaking.  If td is, say, 5e-2s and particle O changed its step 1e-12s after particle E, then simultaneity notwithstanding we know the effect is essentially simultaneous—at any rate it certainly exceeds c.


Message 50e5a913p13-10058-518-07.htm, number 127993, was posted on Sun Jul 16 at 08:38:08
‘Which nineteenth-century novel opens with the words, 'Call me Ishmael'?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference - an easy one for Forumites. Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199990009%2E013%2E5521 to find the answer.

Message 50e5a913p13-10058-520+1c.htm, number 127994, was posted on Sun Jul 16 at 08:40:39
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10056-1001+1e.htm

‘Spooky Action at a Distance’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is the English rendering of Einstein’s famous phrase spukhafte Fernwirkung; here’s an interesting discussion of what he mean by it and how best to translate it: ‘spooky’ or ‘ghostlly’ or ‘mystical’:

Andrew May: I don’t think I’ve ever seen a popular account of quantum entanglement that failed to mention Einstein’s “spooky action at a distance” quote. That’s not surprising, because quantum mechanics is a notoriously difficult subject to communicate to the non-specialist. It needs all the memorable sound-bites it can get... especially ones that a layperson can relate to. If you saw an experiment in which an electron in one location seemed to know what another electron somewhere else was doing, then the word “spooky” might well spring to mind . .

forteana-blog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/spooky-action-at-distance.html

And here’s TED cartoon:

Einstein's brilliant mistake: Entangled states - Chad Orzel


Message 6cadb27dgpf-10058-801+05.htm, number 127995, was posted on Sun Jul 16 at 13:21:08
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10056-792-07.htm

Re: ‘Which nineteenth-century novel opens with the words, 'Call me Ishmael'?’ . .

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Too easy, Christo. Ask us something tougher


On Fri Jul 14, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference - an easy one for Forumites. Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199990009%2E013%2E5521 to find the answer.
>

Message 321763758YV-10058-889+1c.htm, number 127996, was posted on Sun Jul 16 at 14:49:23
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10056-1001+1e.htm

Re: Quantum entanglement: details? [Later: Oh, and furthermore...]

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


A small addition...

My understanding is that entangled protons switch to an opposite state (not matching) of the other and that there are four possible states - up down left right



On Fri Jul 14, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I was excitedly informed at least a dozen times Wednesday-or-was-it-Tuesday? that the Chinese have successfully changed the state of an entangled photon and watched its partner (so to speak) 500 miles up change state along with it.  The word "teleportation" was used in most of those articles, which I scornfully ignore.  But in a follow-up article today I read that they tried it a million times over 32 days, and were successful 911 times.

>Which tells me I have not properly understood what's going on.  What I had thought is that someone creates a pair of entangled particles, call them E and O.  The second particle is moved to the Chinese facility in orbit about 500 miles above the earth.  Someone on earth changes the state of E, and an observer notices that the state of O changes to match at the same time.

>Wednesday night I met an old church friend for dinner and had a long debate over this.  At the time we were focused on simultaneity, and it was my thesis that in order to know that O's change instantly followed E's, they had to have synchronized clocks*.  We also discussed the implications for communication by ansible:  For that to work, you'd have to ship millions of entangled bits from E to O, and each bit would have to be addressable, which we're certainly not ready to do yet.

>But in this case apparently they did have a million bits at each end, and they were addressable...if my picture was accurate.  So I must be wrong about their method.  Start back at the beginning:  Can anyone tell me how you a) create two entangled bits and then b) separate them by distance?  I don't have a really scientific forum to hang out at, but it's been remarked before what a broad range of knowledge we have here so maybe...?

>[Some hours later:] I forgot to add that, depending on your answer to the above question, the next step may be to wonder why 0.1% success is considered, well, successful.  If you change the state of particle E and the state of particle O changes only every thousandth time, what are we to believe is proven?
>
>
>* About synchronized clocks: Yes, I understand that relativity denies the concept of simultaneity.  I maintain the possibility of synchronicity, nevertheless, on two grounds:  1) If it's true that particles O and E changed simultaneously, that doesn't violate the speed of light because nothing has traveled from E to O.  No violation of c, therefore no violation of the ban on simultaneity.  2) If you insist on forbidding simultaneity (as my friend did) despite the fact that this case doesn't affect c, it's still alright:  We can synchronize clocks practically speaking (close enough for government work) as follows:  Calibrate clock E on earth to run accurately under 1g.  Calibrate clock O in orbit to run accurately in free fall.  Calculate td as the time it takes light to travel from E to O.  At time t, send a tick from E to O.  Set clock O to t minus td.  From then on, clocks E and O are synchronized, practically speaking.  If td is, say, 5e-2s and particle O changed its step 1e-12s after particle E, then simultaneity notwithstanding we know the effect is essentially simultaneous—at any rate it certainly exceeds c.


Message 46d30af600A-10058-1014+07.htm, number 127997, was posted on Sun Jul 16 at 16:54:10
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10058-518-07.htm

Short term memory loss is a symptom of what?

Max


You already posted this on Friday.



n Sun Jul 16, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference - an easy one for Forumites. Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199990009%2E013%2E5521 to find the answer.
>

Message 50e5a913p13-10059-773+04.htm, number 127998, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 12:53:51
in reply to 6cadb27dgpf-10058-801+05.htm

I’m no quiz master

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Jul 16, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Too easy, Christo. Ask us something tougher

AlasI have no book of suitable questions - indeed I have no way of judging what Forumites would find ‘hard’ but not too hard, as we are a varied bunch and I have never met any other POB fans.

The questions I post all come from Oxford Reference and anyone can sign up to receive them at www.oxfordreference.com/oso/emailsignupform?nojs=true .

I only post ones which have a connection, often tenuous,with our concerns or which amuse or intrigue me. Some of them ask about obscure people or events which to me are of no interest whatsoever.

So for ! week only I will post them all, starting with today’s:

How did Raoul Wallenberg, believed to have died on this day in 1947, save the lives of over 30,000 Jewish people?

Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780191802997.001.0001/acref-9780191802997-e-2461


Message 617af4f3UWK-10059-1052+1b.htm, number 127999, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 17:32:35
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10056-1001+1e.htm

Re: Quantum entanglement: details? [Later: Oh, and furthermore...]

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Question: Can anyone tell me how you a) create two entangled bits.

Response: The "bits" in the Experiment you referenced are Photons, so the how question is answered as follows:

Shining an ultraviolet laser on a non-linear optical crystal.

physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2016/aug/16/china-launches-world-s-first-quantum-science-satellite.

This is referred to as the Spontaneous parametric down-conversion (SPDC)method.  There is another method of entanglement for Photons, but it requires a beam splitter which I think has to be applied locally and would not work at much distance, and there is a method to entangle electrons as well.
SPCD described here:  www.nature.com/articles/srep20906
Question: then b) separate them by distance?

Response:  Observations are made at differing points of the Vector of the Laser.  In this case the Vector is from Tibet to the Satellite and back, and the entangled photons might be viewed as "contained" in the beam.


On Fri Jul 14, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I was excitedly informed at least a dozen times Wednesday-or-was-it-Tuesday? that the Chinese have successfully changed the state of an entangled photon and watched its partner (so to speak) 500 miles up change state along with it.  The word "teleportation" was used in most of those articles, which I scornfully ignore.  But in a follow-up article today I read that they tried it a million times over 32 days, and were successful 911 times.

>Which tells me I have not properly understood what's going on.  What I had thought is that someone creates a pair of entangled particles, call them E and O.  The second particle is moved to the Chinese facility in orbit about 500 miles above the earth.  Someone on earth changes the state of E, and an observer notices that the state of O changes to match at the same time.

>Wednesday night I met an old church friend for dinner and had a long debate over this.  At the time we were focused on simultaneity, and it was my thesis that in order to know that O's change instantly followed E's, they had to have synchronized clocks*.  We also discussed the implications for communication by ansible:  For that to work, you'd have to ship millions of entangled bits from E to O, and each bit would have to be addressable, which we're certainly not ready to do yet.

>But in this case apparently they did have a million bits at each end, and they were addressable...if my picture was accurate.  So I must be wrong about their method.  Start back at the beginning:  Can anyone tell me how you a) create two entangled bits and then b) separate them by distance?  I don't have a really scientific forum to hang out at, but it's been remarked before what a broad range of knowledge we have here so maybe...?

>[Some hours later:] I forgot to add that, depending on your answer to the above question, the next step may be to wonder why 0.1% success is considered, well, successful.  If you change the state of particle E and the state of particle O changes only every thousandth time, what are we to believe is proven?
>
>
>* About synchronized clocks: Yes, I understand that relativity denies the concept of simultaneity.  I maintain the possibility of synchronicity, nevertheless, on two grounds:  1) If it's true that particles O and E changed simultaneously, that doesn't violate the speed of light because nothing has traveled from E to O.  No violation of c, therefore no violation of the ban on simultaneity.  2) If you insist on forbidding simultaneity (as my friend did) despite the fact that this case doesn't affect c, it's still alright:  We can synchronize clocks practically speaking (close enough for government work) as follows:  Calibrate clock E on earth to run accurately under 1g.  Calibrate clock O in orbit to run accurately in free fall.  Calculate td as the time it takes light to travel from E to O.  At time t, send a tick from E to O.  Set clock O to t minus td.  From then on, clocks E and O are synchronized, practically speaking.  If td is, say, 5e-2s and particle O changed its step 1e-12s after particle E, then simultaneity notwithstanding we know the effect is essentially simultaneous—at any rate it certainly exceeds c.


Message 6cadb1dagpf-10059-1211+04.htm, number 128000, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 20:11:10
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10059-773+04.htm

Re: I’m no quiz master

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


How did Raoul Wallenberg, believed to have died on this day in 1947, save the lives of over 30,000 Jewish people?


By granting them quick Swedish citizenship?

Message 61768a3eUWK-10060-19+05.htm, number 128001, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 00:19:21
in reply to 46d30af600A-10058-1014+07.htm

Re: S, Bots don't get Alzeimers

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


So I am told.


On Sun Jul 16, Max wrote
------------------------
>You already posted this on Friday.
>
>
>
>n Sun Jul 16, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference - an easy one for Forumites. Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199990009%2E013%2E5521 to find the answer.
>>

Message 4747f4808HW-10060-39-30.htm, number 128002, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 00:39:20
Now there's an idea we've discussed before!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'm pretty sure we've done or at least talked about this before, but maybe we should try collecting and posting POB-related trivia questions for fun and valuable prizes.  What "value"?  I dunno, maybe we can get Major Dave to return long enough to dedicate a poem to the lucky winner.  Or maybe just praise and adulation.  But I'm sure we'll have no trouble thinking up challenging questions.  What color shoes was Mrs Williams wearing the day she [oh, wait, no spoilers]?  Was Steven's tutor in Malay Shiite or Sunni?  What month does Dil think she was born in?  I just made those up and there are probably no answers (unless we want to award extra credit for inventive speculation), but you get the idea.

How about this:  The first to answer a challenge question correctly is "it" and gets to pose (and judge) the next one.  That ensures, you see, that at least no one has to be pestered who isn't interested enough at least to attempt it.

On Mon Jul 17, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
I’m no quiz master.  AlasI have no book of suitable questions - indeed I have no way of judging what Forumites would find ‘hard’ but not too hard, as we are a varied bunch and I have never met any other POB fans....

>On Sun Jul 16, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>Too easy, Christo. Ask us something tougher

On Fri Jul 14, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>‘Which nineteenth-century novel opens with the words, "Call me Ishmael"?’ is today’s question from Oxford Reference - an easy one for Forumites. Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199990009%2E013%2E5521 to find the answer.


Message 50e5a913p13-10060-321+03.htm, number 128003, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 05:20:33
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10059-773+04.htm

Humbert Humbert

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Jul 17, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
So for ! week only I will post them all, starting with today’s:

Tuesday: ‘In which novel does Humbert Humbert write out his life story in the psychopathic ward of a prison while awaiting trial for murder?’

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195065480%2E013%2E2846 to find the answer to today's question.


Message 90a0625e00A-10060-544+05.htm, number 128004, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 09:03:47
in reply to 46d30af600A-10058-1014+07.htm

Re: Short term memory loss is a symptom of what?

YA


There's a glitch in the matrix.


On Sun Jul 16, Max wrote
------------------------
>You already posted this on Friday.
>
>
>
>n Sun Jul 16, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference - an easy one for Forumites. Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199990009%2E013%2E5521 to find the answer.
>>

Message 50e5a913p13-10060-804+1e.htm, number 128005, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 13:24:51
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10060-39-30.htm

Here goes: ‘Is minic Gall maith’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Jul 18, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>How about this:  The first to answer a challenge question correctly is "it" and gets to pose (and judge) the next one.  That ensures, you see, that at least no one has to be pestered who isn't interested enough at least to attempt it.

As has been observed - not least by me - I am sadly decayed from when I read the Canon 40 years ago so I am ill-fitted to start this game off but my brain offered the ghost of this, which, verified against the source, I humbly lay before you:

Warm ups:

a: What does this mean?

b: Who said it?

c: Where did they say it?

Quiz:

What did the other person say in reply?


Message 50e5a913p13-10060-829-90.htm, number 128006, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 13:49:19
‘ . . Every schoolboy knows who imprisoned Montezuma, and who strangled Atahualpa . . ’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


A General Knowledge (GK) Quiz requires a common idea of what is and isn’t GK. When I was a lad 60 years ago it was defined as ‘What Every schoolboy knows’ - a phrase popularised by Thomas Macaulay in his 1840 essay on Clive of India. ‘Schoolboy’ of course meant the select few who had attended on of Britain’‘s Public (= fee-paying) Schools or a decent free Grammar School and had therefore had, willy-nilly, a vast stock of such facts beaten into them.

OED must have received a wide range of quotes for this phrase and cites six of them:

Every schoolboy knows: used to refer to an item of factual information that is supposed to be generally known (sometimes used humorously with reference to obscure or specialized information).
. . 1795   T. Pownall Considerations Scarcity & High Prices of Bread-corn & Bread Pref. p. vi   Every school-boy knows that the nut will not shell until it is a brown-sheller.
1840   Macaulay in Edinb. Rev. Jan. 295   Every schoolboy knows who imprisoned Montezuma, and who strangled Atahualpa.
1872   Lancet 27 July 113/2   Every schoolboy knows that if he visit a nest too often, or disturb it in any way, the old birds will desert their little ones.
1900   Cornhill Mag. Sept. 382   The meal which is most characteristic of Yorkshire, as every schoolboy knows, is the high tea.
1963   New Scientist 26 Sept. 658/2   Every schoolboy knows that one sphere can be surrounded by up to twelve others of equal size, so the function g (r) rises steeply to a maximum..then oscillates a few times.
1995   J. M. Kolkey Germany on March ii. 28   As every schoolboy knows, the joint Austro-Prussian military invasion of France was halted short of Paris at a battle that became known as the Miracle of Valmy.’

Nowadays the rise of universal secondary education and college education for the majority there is no GK - just General Ignorance - GI.


Message 6cadb27dgpf-10060-978+1e.htm, number 128007, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 16:18:09
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10060-804+1e.htm

Re: Here goes: ‘Is minic Gall maith’

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Not a clue in the world, Christo. But I would be delighted to learn that the person so addressed replied: 'Ye thrawn, ill-feckit gaberlunzie!' But that would be too much to hope for, I suppose.

On Tue Jul 18, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Tue Jul 18, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>How about this:  The first to answer a challenge question correctly is "it" and gets to pose (and judge) the next one.  That ensures, you see, that at least no one has to be pestered who isn't interested enough at least to attempt it.

>As has been observed - not least by me - I am sadly decayed from when I read the Canon 40 years ago so I am ill-fitted to start this game off but my brain offered the ghost of this, which, verified against the source, I humbly lay before you:
>
>Warm ups:
>

>a: What does this mean?

>b: Who said it?

>c: Where did they say it?
>
>Quiz:

>What did the other person say in reply?
>

>


Message 4747f4808HW-10060-1094+1e.htm, number 128008, was posted on Tue Jul 18 at 18:13:57
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10060-804+1e.htm

Googling doesn't count

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Hm, I find that the first thing I want is a fully indexed on-line copy of the Canon.  But that would be cheating—it would subvert the whole purpose, right?

I promptly found the answer by googling, but I don't think that should count, unless y'all want to make this an Internet Scavenger hunt...or at least not until everyone else has given up.  I'll let someone else impress us by knowing the answer through the application of an encyclopedic knowledge and memory.

On Tue Jul 18, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>As has been observed - not least by me - I am sadly decayed from when I read the Canon 40 years ago so I am ill-fitted to start this game off but my brain offered the ghost of this, which, verified against the source, I humbly lay before you:

>Warm ups:

>a: What does this mean?

>b: Who said it?

>c: Where did they say it?

>Quiz:

>What did the other person say in reply?

>On Tue Jul 18, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>How about this:  The first to answer a challenge question correctly is "it" and gets to pose (and judge) the next one.  That ensures, you see, that at least no one has to be pestered who isn't interested enough at least to attempt it.


Message 50e5a913p13-10061-797+02.htm, number 128009, was posted on Wed Jul 19 at 13:17:03
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10059-773+04.htm

White on White'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Which Russian artist produced a series of 'White on White' paintings around 1918?

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780191782763%2E013%2E1496 to find the answer to today's question.


Message aeda01ec00A-10061-968+04.htm, number 128010, was posted on Wed Jul 19 at 16:07:33
in reply to 90a0625e00A-10060-544+05.htm

Re^2: Short term memory loss is a symptom of what?

Whoreson Beast


The marthambles?

Leghorn Pox?

Carrying teratomas in your holster?

Ah, falling damps!


Message 46d1cb3b00A-10061-1171+59.htm, number 128011, was posted on Wed Jul 19 at 19:31:10
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10060-829-90.htm

Re: ‘ . . Every schoolboy knows who imprisoned Montezuma, and who strangled Atahualpa . . ’

Max


Justice Stanley Reed, speaking for the US Supreme Court in 1955 justified taking Native land thru outright theft and murder:

“Every American schoolboy knows that the savage tribes of this continent were deprived of their ancestral ranges by force and that, even when the Indians ceded millions of acres by treaty in return for blankets, food and trinkets, it was not a sale but the conqueror’s will that deprived them of their land.”


Message 50e5a913p13-10062-474+01.htm, number 128012, was posted on Thu Jul 20 at 07:54:27
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10059-773+04.htm

Anyone for thanatosis?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'In zoology what is the state of thanatosis?'

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199684274%2E013%2E8857 to find the answer to today's question


Message 50e5a913p13-10062-496-90.htm, number 128013, was posted on Thu Jul 20 at 08:15:47
Dunkirk review

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Christopher Nolan's apocalyptic war epic is his best film so far
5 / 5 stars


Nolan eschews war porn for a powerful and superbly crafted disaster movie – starring Kenneth Branagh, Tom Hardy and a decent Harry Styles – with a story to tell https://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2017/jul/19/dunkirk-christopher-nolan-kubrick

Review: https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/jul/17/dunkirk-review-christopher-nolans-apocalyptic-war-epic-is-his-best-film-so-far


Message 50e5a913p13-10062-496+5a.htm, number 128013, was edited on Thu Jul 20 at 08:16:49
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10062-496-90.htm

Dunkirk review

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Christopher Nolan's apocalyptic war epic is his best film so far
5 / 5 stars


Nolan eschews war porn for a powerful and superbly crafted disaster movie – starring Kenneth Branagh, Tom Hardy and a decent Harry Styles – with a story to tell https://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2017/jul/19/dunkirk-christopher-nolan-kubrick

Review: https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/jul/17/dunkirk-review-christopher-nolans-apocalyptic-war-epic-is-his-best-film-so-far

[ This message was edited on Thu Jul 20 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10062-539-90.htm, number 128014, was posted on Thu Jul 20 at 08:59:02
Another quiz: Ugh

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Who says ‘Ugh’?

To whom?

What did they mean by it?


Message 4747f4808HW-10062-624+5a.htm, number 128015, was posted on Thu Jul 20 at 10:24:03
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10062-539-90.htm

Hah! I know this one!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Stephen says it to an Indian of his acquaintance while he and Jack are being held in the USA, under the impression that it's a standard Amerindian greeting.  Eventually the Indian asks him why he says it, and then explains (not very plausibly in my opinion, but Mr O'Brian never asked my opinion) that "Ugh" was really the Indians' expression of distaste at the sight of those ugly white men.

On Thu Jul 20, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Who says ‘Ugh’?

>To whom?

>What did they mean by it?


Message 46d1c97300A-10062-641+5a.htm, number 128016, was posted on Thu Jul 20 at 10:41:15
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10062-624+5a.htm

Mystery explained

Max


youtu.be/J8uSUcAFiXc




On Thu Jul 20, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Stephen says it to an Indian of his acquaintance while he and Jack are being held in the USA, under the impression that it's a standard Amerindian greeting.  Eventually the Indian asks him why he says it, and then explains (not very plausibly in my opinion, but Mr O'Brian never asked my opinion) that "Ugh" was really the Indians' expression of distaste at the sight of those ugly white men.

>On Thu Jul 20, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>Who says ‘Ugh’?

>>To whom?

>>What did they mean by it?


Message 4747f4808HW-10062-664+1c.htm, number 128017, was posted on Thu Jul 20 at 11:03:58
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10060-804+1e.htm

Re: Here goes: ‘Is minic Gall maith’

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


No one has volunteered so I'll consider the time expired and give my answer:  I didn't remember this at all, but I googled it and came up first with this article in the Irish Times, which starts out
In Desolation Island, the fifth of Patrick O’Brian’s epic naval series, the ship surgeon Stephen Maturin ribs his friend, Capt Jack Aubrey, with what he claims to be an Irish proverb. “There is good to be found even in an Englishman” is how he translates the original (given as Is minic Gall maith). Then he adds drily: “It is not often used, however.”
However, Anthony Gary Brown translates it "there's usually some good in a foreigner".

On the strength of this I took out my copy of Desolation Island—my favorite of the series, I think—but didn't immediately find the place so as to fill in the rest of the answers, and really I should get to work.

On Tue Jul 18, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>As has been observed - not least by me - I am sadly decayed from when I read the Canon 40 years ago so I am ill-fitted to start this game off but my brain offered the ghost of this, which, verified against the source, I humbly lay before you:

>Warm ups:
>a: What does this mean?
>b: Who said it?
>c: Where did they say it?

>Quiz: What did the other person say in reply?

>On Tue Jul 18, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>How about this:  The first to answer a challenge question correctly is "it" and gets to pose (and judge) the next one.  That ensures, you see, that at least no one has to be pestered who isn't interested enough at least to attempt it.


Message 4747f4808HW-10062-829+58.htm, number 128018, was posted on Thu Jul 20 at 13:49:31
in reply to 46d1cb3b00A-10061-1171+59.htm

Probably a waste of time, but...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I had to do a little research to figure out what decision you were talking about, Max.  As I suspected, though, when I got there I learned that Reed was not justifying theft and murder—just admitting it, and describing its effect on the legal relationship between the US government and the various conquered originals.

Gotta admit, though, he didn't sound all that apologetic about it either.  Nothing, for example, about "much as it pains me, the legal position is such that...".

On Wed Jul 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>Justice Stanley Reed, speaking for the US Supreme Court in 1955 justified taking Native land thru outright theft and murder:

> “Every American schoolboy knows that the savage tribes of this continent were deprived of their ancestral ranges by force and that, even when the Indians ceded millions of acres by treaty in return for blankets, food and trinkets, it was not a sale but the conqueror’s will that deprived them of their land.”


Message 50e5a913p13-10062-496+07.htm, number 128013, was edited on Fri Jul 21 at 05:56:38
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10062-496+5a.htm

Dunkirk review

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Christopher Nolan's apocalyptic war epic is his best film so far
5 / 5 stars


Nolan eschews war porn for a powerful and superbly crafted disaster movie – starring Kenneth Branagh, Tom Hardy and a decent Harry Styles – with a story to tell www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2017/jul/19/dunkirk-christopher-nolan-kubrick

Review: www.theguardian.com/film/2017/jul/17/dunkirk-review-christopher-nolans-apocalyptic-war-epic-is-his-best-film-so-far

[ This message was edited on Fri Jul 21 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10063-394-90.htm, number 128019, was posted on Fri Jul 21 at 06:33:38
JORN (Oxford quiz cont.)

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


In Australian military history what does the acronym JORN stand for?

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195517842%2E013%2E0625 to find the answer to today's question!

Tolerabley obscure to non-Ozzies.


Message 50e5a913p13-10063-407+06.htm, number 128020, was posted on Fri Jul 21 at 06:46:43
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10062-496+07.htm

The Dunkirk spirit: how cinema is shaping Britain’s identity in the Brexit era

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'Where some see disaster, others see victory … No, not the fraught events of 1940 as depicted in Christopher Nolan’s war epic, but the right’s battle against Europe. Has cinema become a willing ally?'

' . . To its credit, Nolan’s Dunkirk avoids flag-waving jingoism in favour of a more complex account of events. The heroism and courage and sacrifice is duly celebrated, but the movie acknowledges there was also panic, chaos, fear and cowardice. There was xenophobia – “English only!” shouts the naval officer, turning French soldiers away from the rescue ships – but there was also solidarity: “I’m staying … for the French,” says Kenneth Branagh’s naval commander, as he watches the last British troops sail home. Nolan has said he approached the film “from the point of view of the pure mechanics of survival rather than from the politics of the event”.

It is a theme that resonates beyond Dunkirk itself, and far beyond the Brexit interpretation of it. As we watch hundreds of thousands of unfortunate people huddled on the beaches, hoping for deliverance, the similarity between our boys trying to get home and present-day migrants striving desperately to reach Europe is impossible to ignore. Our identity myths should surely be able to accommodate both.'

Steven Rose
www.theguardian.com/film/2017/jul/20/dunkirk-spirit-british-film-brexit-national-identity-christopher-nolan

Dunkirk is released today.


Message 31bb94e900A-10063-506+5a.htm, number 128021, was posted on Fri Jul 21 at 08:25:45
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10063-394-90.htm

Re: JORN (Oxford quiz cont.)

wombat


On Fri Jul 21, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>In Australian military history what does the acronym JORN stand for?

>Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195517842%2E013%2E0625 to find the answer to today's question!

>Tolerabley obscure to non-Ozzies.

And not dazzlingly clear to marsupials either.


Message 47e54da900A-10063-1326+06.htm, number 128022, was posted on Fri Jul 21 at 22:06:17
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10063-407+06.htm

At least we know what happens to Captain Tom Pullings

Whoreson Beast


He went on to become a Colonel in the British Army (James D'Arcy).

BTW, with the Royal Marines, RAF, and RN, why isn't it the Royal Army?

/Colonists wish to know


Message adb7f4aagpf-10063-1354+5a.htm, number 128023, was posted on Fri Jul 21 at 22:34:28
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10063-394-90.htm

Re: JORN (Oxford quiz cont.)

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Does the RN stand for 'Royal Navy?'

Probably not

On Fri Jul 21, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>In Australian military history what does the acronym JORN stand for?

>Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195517842%2E013%2E0625 to find the answer to today's question!

>Tolerabley obscure to non-Ozzies.


Message 50e5a913p13-10064-567+59.htm, number 128024, was posted on Sat Jul 22 at 09:27:29
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10063-394-90.htm

Votes for British Women

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘In which year were women granted the same voting rights as men in the UK?’

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780192800916%2E013%2E0562 to find the answer to today's question.

Message 50e5a913p13-10064-569+59.htm, number 128025, was posted on Sat Jul 22 at 09:28:35
in reply to adb7f4aagpf-10063-1354+5a.htm

Re^2: JORN (Oxford quiz cont.)

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Jul 21, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Does the RN stand for 'Royal Navy?'

Double NO.


Message 50e5a913p13-10065-416+58.htm, number 128026, was posted on Sun Jul 23 at 06:55:34
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10063-394-90.htm

The world's longest literary work?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Which great epic of India is thought to be the world's longest literary work?

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195102758%2E013%2E0174 to find the answer to today's question.


Message 6bd5c1a400A-10065-1262-07.htm, number 128027, was posted on Sun Jul 23 at 21:02:19
Strange Story Of The SS Warimoo

Lee Shore


I don't recall if anyone has posted this. Interesting.

www.mastermariners.org.au/stories-from-the-past/2304-strange-story-of-the-ss-warimoo


Message 0ce2b8b200A-10065-1298+07.htm, number 128028, was posted on Sun Jul 23 at 21:38:11
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-10065-1262-07.htm

Does not a new century begin

Hoyden


01/01/XX01, not XX00?

Message 50e5a913p13-10066-439+57.htm, number 128029, was posted on Mon Jul 24 at 07:18:55
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10063-394-90.htm

, ‘In Mesoamerican mythology . . ’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘ . . which deity descended to the underworld to obtain the bones with which to create the human race?

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195156690%2E013%2E1326 to find the answer.


Message 50e5a913p13-10066-440+57.htm, number 128029, was edited on Mon Jul 24 at 07:19:45
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10066-439+57.htm

‘In Mesoamerican mythology . . ’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . which deity descended to the underworld to obtain the bones with which to create the human race?

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195156690%2E013%2E1326 to find the answer.

[ This message was edited on Mon Jul 24 by the author ]


Message 4086b48c00A-10066-680-90.htm, number 128030, was posted on Mon Jul 24 at 11:20:16
"Jack, if you would just wait until we get to my estate, there is plenty of food"

YA


www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/bear-cliff-edge-200-sheep-france-spain-a7856001.html

Message 4747f4808HW-10066-707+18.htm, number 128031, was posted on Mon Jul 24 at 11:47:11
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10062-664+1c.htm

Re^2: Here goes: ‘Is minic Gall maith’

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Once having picked up Desolation Island I found myself reading it again, so I now have the last answer:  Stephen said it to Jack during a morning conversation after the British whaler had given him the loan of their forge:
He had rarely seen Jack happier than he was at breakfast, sitting there in the great cabin drinking coffee, with a spy-glass at hand so that he could watch the beautiful smithy between cups.  "There is good even in an American", he said.  "And when I think of that poor skipper with his face-ache, drinking small-beer for his morning draught, I have a mind to send him a sack of coffee-beans."

"There is a proverb in Ireland", said Stephen, "to the effect that there is good to be found even in an Englishman—is minic Gall maith.  It is not often used, however."

"Of course there is good in an American", said Jack.  "Look at young Herapath yesterday...."

They were sitting in the horrible old Leopard, anchored at Desolation Island after a harrowing journey far south of their originally intended port of call.

On Thu Jul 20, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>No one has volunteered so I'll consider the time expired and give my answer:  I didn't remember this at all, but I googled it and came up first with this article in the Irish Times, which starts out

In Desolation Island, the fifth of Patrick O’Brian’s epic naval series, the ship surgeon Stephen Maturin ribs his friend, Capt Jack Aubrey, with what he claims to be an Irish proverb. “There is good to be found even in an Englishman” is how he translates the original (given as Is minic Gall maith). Then he adds drily: “It is not often used, however.”
However, Anthony Gary Brown translates it "there's usually some good in a foreigner".

>On the strength of this I took out my copy of Desolation Island—my favorite of the series, I think—but didn't immediately find the place so as to fill in the rest of the answers, and really I should get to work.

>On Tue Jul 18, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>As has been observed - not least by me - I am sadly decayed from when I read the Canon 40 years ago so I am ill-fitted to start this game off but my brain offered the ghost of this, which, verified against the source, I humbly lay before you:

>>Warm ups:
>>a: What does this mean?
>>b: Who said it?
>>c: Where did they say it?

>>Quiz: What did the other person say in reply?

>>On Tue Jul 18, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>How about this:  The first to answer a challenge question correctly is "it" and gets to pose (and judge) the next one.  That ensures, you see, that at least no one has to be pestered who isn't interested enough at least to attempt it.


Message 6c1413d300A-10066-1257+06.htm, number 128032, was posted on Mon Jul 24 at 20:57:03
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-10065-1262-07.htm

Re: Strange Story Of The SS Warimoo

Don Seltzer


The story originated with Mark Twain's 1895 crossing of the IDL aboard the Warrimoo.  He wrote an account of the oddity of the bow and stern being in two different days.  He got it a bit wrong, however, in claiming that they were two days apart.

The current version of the story adds in the equator and the turn of the century New Year's Eve to embellish the paradox.  While certainly possible, it is more likely that this version of the story was an exaggeration of Twain's original.


Message 68cdae10gpf-10066-1337-07.htm, number 128033, was posted on Mon Jul 24 at 22:17:05
The Boys in the Boat

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


What a great story. Either that or I'm just a sucker for this sort of 'overcoming great odds to achieve sporting glory' type of thing. Maybe both.

In any case, I highly recommend 'The Boys in the Boat,' by Daniel James Brown. He digs deeply into it and turns up gold - well before the literal gold medal at the 1936 Olympics. That was merely the icing on the cake.


Message aeda007f00A-10067-656-07.htm, number 128034, was posted on Tue Jul 25 at 10:55:53
" Stretch out (today) for Doggetts Coat and Badge"

Hoyden


www.doggettsrace.org.uk

7/25/17
11:30 am


Message 6c1413d300A-10067-1231+05.htm, number 128035, was posted on Tue Jul 25 at 20:31:31
in reply to 6c1413d300A-10066-1257+06.htm

Urban Legend or Not?

Don Seltzer


On Mon Jul 24, I wrote

>The current version of the story adds in the equator and the turn of the century New Year's Eve to embellish the paradox.  While certainly possible, it is more likely that this version of the story was an exaggeration of Twain's original.

I see this story pop up every now and then and thought it was time to firmly debunk it by researching shipping records.  To my surprise it appears to be very plausible.

The Warrimoo, commanded by Capt Phillips, left Vancouver on Dec 15, 1899.  It touched briefly at Honolulu on Dec 24 and arrived in Sydney on Jan 9, 1900.  Its course would have taken it very near 0° lat, 180° long within a day or two of Dec 31.  

It is odd that there does not seem to be any references to this story before the mid-20th century.


Message 50e5a913p13-10069-799-90.htm, number 128036, was posted on Thu Jul 27 at 13:18:48
The Hijacking of the Brillante Virtuoso: A Mysterious Assault, . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . An Unsolved Murder And A Ship That Hasn’t Given Up All Its Secrets by Kit Chellel And Matthew Campbell
July 27, 2017
‘1: Nestor Tabares must have known the hijackers were out there, waiting. It was his 13th day at sea aboard the oil tanker Brillante Virtuoso, and as the ship turned east, into the pirate-strewn waters off Somalia, the 54-year-old chief engineer would have understood that it made for an obvious target. With a top speed of less than 13 knots and stretching 300 yards from bow to rusting stern, the black-hulled Brillante was plodding into the world’s most dangerous shipping lane with a cargo worth $100 million.

It was July 2011, and the threat of Somali piracy in the Gulf of Aden had never been more severe . . ‘

Be warned that this is long - 6400 words.

www.bloomberg.com/features/2017-hijacking-of-brillante-virtuoso/


Message 90a0626000A-10073-675-90.htm, number 128037, was posted on Mon Jul 31 at 11:16:00
antibiotics update

YA


I don't know what to say, I just found this interesting:

Message 50e5a913p13-10076-592+4d.htm, number 128038, was posted on Thu Aug 3 at 09:51:32
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10063-394-90.htm

A final selection of recent questions:

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


How does grapefruit affect the metabolism of many drugs?

Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780191752391%2E013%2E2492
……..
In the novel 'Oliver Twist' by Charles Dickens, who adopts Oliver?

Find the answer at:  www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199608218%2E013%2E5580*
…….
In the novel 'Oliver Twist' by Charles Dickens, who adopts Oliver?

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199608218%2E013%2E5580

………………..
You can sign up to receive a daily question at: www.oxfordreference.com/oso/emailsignupform?nojs=true


Message 4747f4808HW-10076-602+57.htm, number 128039, was posted on Thu Aug 3 at 10:02:13
in reply to 90a0626000A-10073-675-90.htm

Re: antibiotics update

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I was going to ask where you found it—could it really have been on Amazon?—but I see the URL, https://i.redd.it/nr1rb5gndwcz.jpg.

On Mon Jul 31, YA wrote
-----------------------
>I don't know what to say, I just found this interesting:
>


Message 50e5a913p13-10076-598+4d.htm, number 128038, was edited on Thu Aug 3 at 10:09:31
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10076-592+4d.htm

A final selection of recent questions:

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


How does grapefruit affect the metabolism of many drugs?

Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780191752391%2E013%2E2492
……..
In the novel 'Oliver Twist' by Charles Dickens, who adopts Oliver?

Find the answer at:  www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199608218%2E013%2E5580*
…….
In the Netherlands what is sold at the Alkmaar auction?

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199330881%2E013%2E0018
………………..
You can sign up to receive a daily question at: www.oxfordreference.com/oso/emailsignupform?nojs=true

[ This message was edited on Thu Aug 3 by the author ]


Message 4abe5c7200A-10076-669+57.htm, number 128040, was posted on Thu Aug 3 at 11:08:38
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10076-602+57.htm

Re^2: antibiotics update

YA


I was wondering what you were on about, then I checked amazon-not there, taken down.
But it was, I swears-

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yQ1ETl7m9MUJ:https://www.a

Which it might well not have been, and been complete BS; instead of only partial BS. Word to the wise, check your sources.

On Thu Aug 3, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>I was going to ask where you found it—could it really have been on Amazon?—but I see the URL, https://i.redd.it/nr1rb5gndwcz.jpg.


Message c61740a88YV-10076-1228+57.htm, number 128041, was posted on Thu Aug 3 at 20:27:53
in reply to 4abe5c7200A-10076-669+57.htm

Re^3: no, it was there

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Amazon took it down, perhaps because the reviewers were being a little too open about who they were buying it for.  And it does appear to be a 'thing' - survivalists stocking up on 'antibiotics' before the coming apocalypse.

Personally, anyone stupid enough to buy antibiotics described as being for fish, which means they're aren't approved by the FDA or any other agency and could literally have anything in the pill bottles (who would you complain to?) deserves whatever happens to them.

AOn Thu Aug 3, YA wrote
----------------------
>I was wondering what you were on about, then I checked amazon-not there, taken down.
>But it was, I swears-

>webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yQ1ETl7m9MUJ:https://www.a

>Which it might well not have been, and been complete BS; instead of only partial BS. Word to the wise, check your sources.

>On Thu Aug 3, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>I was going to ask where you found it—could it really have been on Amazon?—but I see the URL, https://i.redd.it/nr1rb5gndwcz.jpg.

>


Message 50e5a913p13-10082-477-90.htm, number 128042, was posted on Wed Aug 9 at 07:57:12
'What is the name of the schooner taken in 1910 by Roald Amundsen to the Antarctic, successfully reaching the South Pole?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . today’s queston.

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E1036 to find the answer.


Message 32e1898200A-10083-383-30.htm, number 128043, was posted on Thu Aug 10 at 06:22:33
Gentleman in Moscow

Max


Well, this was depressing. I went to a dinner party of seemingly bright, educated people. Not young.
They were reading A Gentleman in Moscow with great enjoyment.
So far, so good.
While discussing the book however it became apparent that they thought it took place during, or right after, the Napoleonic era.

I didn't know where to start.


Message 50e5a913p13-10082-477+5a.htm, number 128042, was edited on Thu Aug 10 at 13:13:29
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10082-477-90.htm

'What is the name of the schooner taken by Roald Amundsen to the Antarctic ? . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . today’s queston.

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E1036 to find the answer.

[ This message was edited on Thu Aug 10 by the author ]


Message 56003e26cb5-10083-1053+59.htm, number 128044, was posted on Thu Aug 10 at 17:32:51
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10082-477+5a.htm

Fram, of course!

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



It means "forward" in Norwegian. She originally belonged to Nansen. A brilliantly-designed ship for Arctic exploration, she can't be crushed by the ice because her bottom is rounded so the ice will simply push her up. You can take a tour in Oslo.

Message 56003e26cb5-10083-1056-30.htm, number 128045, was posted on Thu Aug 10 at 17:36:07
What do we think of that fellow... (on-topic)

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



... who said, "I never drink a glass of wine with any man"? I believe he said this to Clonfert in The Mauritius Command. This seems deliberately offensive, and I can't imagine the justification for it. If you drink wine, why should you not drink a glass in friendship with another, as custom doth dictate? Is there some obligation imposed thereby, that he wished to avoid?

Message 46d310ab00A-10084-522+1d.htm, number 128046, was posted on Fri Aug 11 at 08:42:30
in reply to 56003e26cb5-10083-1056-30.htm

I say he has a demon

Max


In Luke 7:33–44, Jesus said, “For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’”


Message 6242bb3b00A-10084-612+1d.htm, number 128047, was posted on Fri Aug 11 at 10:11:52
in reply to 32e1898200A-10083-383-30.htm

Re: Gentleman in Moscow

YA


Dinner with Max. You gotta be on your game:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeDjaQNiTog

Originally looked for a Letterkenny 'to be fair' clip, no can find.
Figure it oot.

On Thu Aug 10, Max wrote
------------------------
>Well, this was depressing. I went to a dinner party of seemingly bright, educated people. Not young.
>They were reading A Gentleman in Moscow with great enjoyment.
>So far, so good.
>While discussing the book however it became apparent that they thought it took place during, or right after, the Napoleonic era.

>I didn't know where to start.


Message 68cdafb5gpf-10084-1045+1d.htm, number 128048, was posted on Fri Aug 11 at 17:24:33
in reply to 32e1898200A-10083-383-30.htm

Re: Gentleman in Moscow

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Thanks for the heads-up, Max. I will be sure now not to make that mistake if I ever get my hands on A Gentleman in Moscow, which - due to my reliance on regional library system inventory - may not be for a long time. I checked last night and found every copy of Towle in the system is out and with a waiting list. I had no idea. Same for George Saunders, I notice. Has anyone here read 'Lincoln in the Bardo?'

On Thu Aug 10, Max wrote
------------------------
>Well, this was depressing. I went to a dinner party of seemingly bright, educated people. Not young.
>They were reading A Gentleman in Moscow with great enjoyment.
>So far, so good.
>While discussing the book however it became apparent that they thought it took place during, or right after, the Napoleonic era.

>I didn't know where to start.


Message 68cdafb5gpf-10084-1047+58.htm, number 128049, was posted on Fri Aug 11 at 17:26:45
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10082-477+5a.htm

Re: 'What is the name of the schooner taken by Roald Amundsen to the Antarctic ? . . '

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I was all set to guess 'Gjoa', but that was on an Arctic voyage. I once met a fellow from Gjoa Haven who told me about Amundsen spending a couple of winters there. He figured he had some of old Roald's blood in him, as well.
On Thu Aug 10, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . today’s queston.

>Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E1036 to find the answer.


Message 46d30bbe00A-10085-42+1c.htm, number 128050, was posted on Sat Aug 12 at 00:42:21
in reply to 68cdafb5gpf-10084-1045+1d.htm

Re^2: Gentleman in Moscow

Max


I haven't read  'Lincoln in the Bardo'. No plan not to. Just too much going on to read as much as I like.
My astonishment at the dinner party is that GIM as about nothing if it isn't about the decade after decade changes in society post 1922. Words like "Bolsheviks" are on every page. There are cars and radios.
I'm just astonished that educated people can miss by a full century.




n Fri Aug 11, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Thanks for the heads-up, Max. I will be sure now not to make that mistake if I ever get my hands on A Gentleman in Moscow, which - due to my reliance on regional library system inventory - may not be for a long time. I checked last night and found every copy of Towle in the system is out and with a waiting list. I had no idea. Same for George Saunders, I notice. Has anyone here read 'Lincoln in the Bardo?'

>On Thu Aug 10, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Well, this was depressing. I went to a dinner party of seemingly bright, educated people. Not young.
>>They were reading A Gentleman in Moscow with great enjoyment.
>>So far, so good.
>>While discussing the book however it became apparent that they thought it took place during, or right after, the Napoleonic era.

>>I didn't know where to start.


Message 31bb0f9f00A-10085-236+1c.htm, number 128051, was posted on Sat Aug 12 at 03:56:23
in reply to 56003e26cb5-10083-1056-30.htm

Re: What do we think of that fellow... (on-topic)

wombat


On Thu Aug 10, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>... who said, "I never drink a glass of wine with any man"? I believe he said this to Clonfert in The Mauritius Command. This seems deliberately offensive, and I can't imagine the justification for it. If you drink wine, why should you not drink a glass in friendship with another, as custom doth dictate? Is there some obligation imposed thereby, that he wished to avoid?

Maybe PO'B meant to hint at the flaws in the personalities of both Clonfert and Corbett? A hint of further clashes? (I'm not sure as
I haven't re-read TMC in years).

I googled because googling is what I *do*. PO'B lifted the episode straight from "Life of a Seaman". Cochrane was being pleasant to his new admiral, Vandeput, a man who could be intimidating on first aquaintance.:


"On joining this ship a few days afterwards my reception was anything but encouraging.

Being seated near the admiral at dinner, he inquired what dish was before me. Mentioning its nature, I asked if he would permit me to help him. The uncourteous reply was — that whenever he wished for anything he was in the habit of asking for it. Not knowing what to make of a rebuff of this nature, it was  met by an inquiry if he would allow me the honour  of taking wine with him. "I never take wine with  any man, my lord," was the unexpected reply, from  which it struck me that my lot was cast among Goths, if no worse".

On further acquaintance the admiral proved to be one of the kindest of commanders. "There was not a happier ship afloat, nor one in which the officers lived in more perfect harmony".


Message 46d3102500A-10085-1253+57.htm, number 128052, was posted on Sat Aug 12 at 20:52:38
in reply to 56003e26cb5-10083-1053+59.htm

Re: Fram, of course!

Max


By odd coincidence I am reading The Mission Song and Fram just came up appropo of nothing.
What are the odds?



n Thu Aug 10, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>It means "forward" in Norwegian. She originally belonged to Nansen. A brilliantly-designed ship for Arctic exploration, she can't be crushed by the ice because her bottom is rounded so the ice will simply push her up. You can take a tour in Oslo.

Message 56003e26cb5-10087-709+1a.htm, number 128053, was posted on Mon Aug 14 at 11:48:55
in reply to 31bb0f9f00A-10085-236+1c.htm

Great research! Thanks! (NT)

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


.

Message ad2078cfhi9-10087-906-07.htm, number 128054, was posted on Mon Aug 14 at 15:06:26
Master & Commander Weekend in Toronto 2017

Adam Quinan
hms.bee@gmail.com


MASTER AND COMMANDER

A Weekend in Nelson's Navy

at Historic Montgomery's Inn
(4709 Dundas West at Islington), Fort York, Campbell House Museum, and aboard tall ship Playfair.

September 22-24, 2017

The year is 1800. Standing on the deck of a British warship, you hear the wind snapping her sails and the creak of her wooden hull. Then -- a strange ship is sighted on the horizon, and you're off in hot pursuit!

This event offers a unique immersive experience: you will spend the weekend in the world of the Royal Navy of 200 years ago.

The three-day weekend includes:

--Crewing (or just relaxing) aboard a tall ship out on Lake Ontario
-- historical music and dance
--five historical meals by firelight, including toasted cheese, sea
pie and spotted dog
--speakers on Jack's ships real and fictional, a newly discovered MS
of music used by naval and military bands, and Jane Austen's naval
brothers
--a display and talk on antique navigational instruments
--lessons in letter-writing with quill pens and sealing wax, using the
bosun's pipes, and cutlass
--demonstrations in cutlass, pike and musket drill
--a lieutenants' examination board (in full dress uniform)
--reading the Articles of War e& divisions on Sunday
--a book table by the fabulous Nautical Mind bookshop, merchants
(Joseph the Chandler and Linda's Early Fashions)
--tours of 1812-era Fort York and late-Georgian Campbell House museum
--historical games and newspapers, and -- wait for it -- a bad naval
poetry contest!

Full details are up on the Master and Commander page of my website, www.JaneAustenDancing.ca and I'm creating a photo gallery from last year's event as well.
Enquiries are coming in from both Canadians and Americans.


Message 46d1cb1200A-10087-1370+07.htm, number 128055, was posted on Mon Aug 14 at 22:49:53
in reply to ad2078cfhi9-10087-906-07.htm

The address, "Dundas West" is certainly promising

Max


On Mon Aug 14, Adam Quinan wrote
--------------------------------
>MASTER AND COMMANDER

>A Weekend in Nelson's Navy

>at Historic Montgomery's Inn
>(4709 Dundas West at Islington), Fort York, Campbell House Museum, and aboard tall ship Playfair.

>September 22-24, 2017

>The year is 1800. Standing on the deck of a British warship, you hear the wind snapping her sails and the creak of her wooden hull. Then -- a strange ship is sighted on the horizon, and you're off in hot pursuit!

>This event offers a unique immersive experience: you will spend the weekend in the world of the Royal Navy of 200 years ago.

>The three-day weekend includes:

>--Crewing (or just relaxing) aboard a tall ship out on Lake Ontario
>-- historical music and dance
>--five historical meals by firelight, including toasted cheese, sea
>pie and spotted dog
>--speakers on Jack's ships real and fictional, a newly discovered MS
>of music used by naval and military bands, and Jane Austen's naval
>brothers
>--a display and talk on antique navigational instruments
>--lessons in letter-writing with quill pens and sealing wax, using the
>bosun's pipes, and cutlass
>--demonstrations in cutlass, pike and musket drill
>--a lieutenants' examination board (in full dress uniform)
>--reading the Articles of War e& divisions on Sunday
>--a book table by the fabulous Nautical Mind bookshop, merchants
>(Joseph the Chandler and Linda's Early Fashions)
>--tours of 1812-era Fort York and late-Georgian Campbell House museum
>--historical games and newspapers, and -- wait for it -- a bad naval
>poetry contest!

>Full details are up on the Master and Commander page of my website, www.JaneAustenDancing.ca and I'm creating a photo gallery from last year's event as well.
>Enquiries are coming in from both Canadians and Americans.


Message 68cdafb5gpf-10088-816+06.htm, number 128056, was posted on Tue Aug 15 at 13:35:38
in reply to ad2078cfhi9-10087-906-07.htm

Re: Master & Commander Weekend in Toronto 2017

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


It sounds like great fun, Mr. Quinan. Thanks for letting us know about it.
Once upon a time I lived near there, but alas, am too far away now to consider attending. Too bad, because I am up for any amount of bad naval poetry.


On Mon Aug 14, Adam Quinan wrote
--------------------------------
>MASTER AND COMMANDER

>A Weekend in Nelson's Navy

>at Historic Montgomery's Inn
>(4709 Dundas West at Islington), Fort York, Campbell House Museum, and aboard tall ship Playfair.

>September 22-24, 2017

>The year is 1800. Standing on the deck of a British warship, you hear the wind snapping her sails and the creak of her wooden hull. Then -- a strange ship is sighted on the horizon, and you're off in hot pursuit!

>This event offers a unique immersive experience: you will spend the weekend in the world of the Royal Navy of 200 years ago.

>The three-day weekend includes:

>--Crewing (or just relaxing) aboard a tall ship out on Lake Ontario
>-- historical music and dance
>--five historical meals by firelight, including toasted cheese, sea
>pie and spotted dog
>--speakers on Jack's ships real and fictional, a newly discovered MS
>of music used by naval and military bands, and Jane Austen's naval
>brothers
>--a display and talk on antique navigational instruments
>--lessons in letter-writing with quill pens and sealing wax, using the
>bosun's pipes, and cutlass
>--demonstrations in cutlass, pike and musket drill
>--a lieutenants' examination board (in full dress uniform)
>--reading the Articles of War e& divisions on Sunday
>--a book table by the fabulous Nautical Mind bookshop, merchants
>(Joseph the Chandler and Linda's Early Fashions)
>--tours of 1812-era Fort York and late-Georgian Campbell House museum
>--historical games and newspapers, and -- wait for it -- a bad naval
>poetry contest!

>Full details are up on the Master and Commander page of my website, www.JaneAustenDancing.ca and I'm creating a photo gallery from last year's event as well.
>Enquiries are coming in from both Canadians and Americans.


Message 68cdafb5gpf-10088-1052+19.htm, number 128057, was posted on Tue Aug 15 at 17:32:00
in reply to 46d30bbe00A-10085-42+1c.htm

Re^3: Gentleman in Moscow

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Sounds like enough to make a guy feeling like throwing in the Towle.

On Sat Aug 12, Max wrote
------------------------
>I haven't read  'Lincoln in the Bardo'. No plan not to. Just too much going on to read as much as I like.
>My astonishment at the dinner party is that GIM as about nothing if it isn't about the decade after decade changes in society post 1922. Words like "Bolsheviks" are on every page. There are cars and radios.
>I'm just astonished that educated people can miss by a full century.
>
>
>
>
>n Fri Aug 11, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>Thanks for the heads-up, Max. I will be sure now not to make that mistake if I ever get my hands on A Gentleman in Moscow, which - due to my reliance on regional library system inventory - may not be for a long time. I checked last night and found every copy of Towle in the system is out and with a waiting list. I had no idea. Same for George Saunders, I notice. Has anyone here read 'Lincoln in the Bardo?'

>>On Thu Aug 10, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>Well, this was depressing. I went to a dinner party of seemingly bright, educated people. Not young.
>>>They were reading A Gentleman in Moscow with great enjoyment.
>>>So far, so good.
>>>While discussing the book however it became apparent that they thought it took place during, or right after, the Napoleonic era.

>>>I didn't know where to start.


Message ad2078cfhi9-10089-766+05.htm, number 128058, was posted on Wed Aug 16 at 12:46:54
in reply to 46d1cb1200A-10087-1370+07.htm

Re: The address, "Dundas West" is certainly promising

Adam Quinan
hms.bee@gmail.com


Dundas Road is so-called because it runs towards the small town of Dundas, Ontario. However, Dundas town is named after Heneage's brother, Viscount Melville, 1st Lord of the Admiralty who was more sympathetic to Jack Aubrey than Earl St Vincent, aka Old Jarvy.


On Mon Aug 14, Max wrote
------------------------


>On Mon Aug 14, Adam Quinan wrote
>--------------------------------
>>MASTER AND COMMANDER

>>A Weekend in Nelson's Navy

>>at Historic Montgomery's Inn
>>(4709 Dundas West at Islington), Fort York, Campbell House Museum, and aboard tall ship Playfair.

>>September 22-24, 2017

>>The year is 1800. Standing on the deck of a British warship, you hear the wind snapping her sails and the creak of her wooden hull. Then -- a strange ship is sighted on the horizon, and you're off in hot pursuit!

>>This event offers a unique immersive experience: you will spend the weekend in the world of the Royal Navy of 200 years ago.

>>The three-day weekend includes:

>>--Crewing (or just relaxing) aboard a tall ship out on Lake Ontario
>>-- historical music and dance
>>--five historical meals by firelight, including toasted cheese, sea
>>pie and spotted dog
>>--speakers on Jack's ships real and fictional, a newly discovered MS
>>of music used by naval and military bands, and Jane Austen's naval
>>brothers
>>--a display and talk on antique navigational instruments
>>--lessons in letter-writing with quill pens and sealing wax, using the
>>bosun's pipes, and cutlass
>>--demonstrations in cutlass, pike and musket drill
>>--a lieutenants' examination board (in full dress uniform)
>>--reading the Articles of War e& divisions on Sunday
>>--a book table by the fabulous Nautical Mind bookshop, merchants
>>(Joseph the Chandler and Linda's Early Fashions)
>>--tours of 1812-era Fort York and late-Georgian Campbell House museum
>>--historical games and newspapers, and -- wait for it -- a bad naval
>>poetry contest!

>>Full details are up on the Master and Commander page of my website, www.JaneAustenDancing.ca and I'm creating a photo gallery from last year's event as well.
>>Enquiries are coming in from both Canadians and Americans.


Message 4747f4808HW-10089-857-30.htm, number 128059, was posted on Wed Aug 16 at 14:17:07
LORAN returning as a backup system.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


The lead article From SANS NewsBites Vol. 19 Num. 062 (Aug 8).  Email me if you'd like me send you a full copy of this semi-weekly digest of recent computer-security events.

Ships Reviving Radio Navigation for GPS Back-Up
(August 7, 2017)
 
Increasing concerns about the reliability of GPS satellite-based navigation systems for ships is prompting some countries to develop radio-based back-up navigation systems. GPS satellite signals can be jammed or spoofed, and are susceptible to interference from solar weather as well as from deliberate attacks.
 
Editor's Note:

[Pescatore]
Denial of service and ransomware attacks, as well as natural disasters, continue to point out the need for backup capabilities. Just as important as the backup system are the skills people need to periodically test and use the backup systems. Business users dependent on apps that tell them where to turn should still know how to use an actual navigation and maybe even (eek) read a map. (In full disclosure, I'm a ham radio operator and am quite prepared to use Morse Code over HF radio as my Internet backup...)

[Northcutt]
The Naval Academy went so far as to reinstitute training in celestial navigation. Keep in mind the "founder" of GPS supports the use of e-Loran, blind faith in the easily jammable GPS is not wise. I wonder if any motorists still have paper maps?
www.npr.org: U.S. Navy Brings Back Navigation By The Stars For Officers

Read more in:
- arstechnica.com: Radio navigation set to make global return as GPS backup, because cyber
- www.reuters.com: Cyber threats prompt return of radio for ship navigation


Message 4747f4808HW-10089-857+1e.htm, number 128059, was edited on Wed Aug 16 at 14:18:02
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-10089-857-30.htm

LORAN returning as a backup system.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


An item From SANS NewsBites Vol. 19 Num. 062 (Aug 8).  Email me if you'd like me send you a full copy of this semi-weekly digest of recent computer-security events.

Ships Reviving Radio Navigation for GPS Back-Up
(August 7, 2017)
 
Increasing concerns about the reliability of GPS satellite-based navigation systems for ships is prompting some countries to develop radio-based back-up navigation systems. GPS satellite signals can be jammed or spoofed, and are susceptible to interference from solar weather as well as from deliberate attacks.
 
Editor's Note:

[Pescatore]
Denial of service and ransomware attacks, as well as natural disasters, continue to point out the need for backup capabilities. Just as important as the backup system are the skills people need to periodically test and use the backup systems. Business users dependent on apps that tell them where to turn should still know how to use an actual navigation and maybe even (eek) read a map. (In full disclosure, I'm a ham radio operator and am quite prepared to use Morse Code over HF radio as my Internet backup...)

[Northcutt]
The Naval Academy went so far as to reinstitute training in celestial navigation. Keep in mind the "founder" of GPS supports the use of e-Loran, blind faith in the easily jammable GPS is not wise. I wonder if any motorists still have paper maps?
www.npr.org: U.S. Navy Brings Back Navigation By The Stars For Officers

Read more in:
- arstechnica.com: Radio navigation set to make global return as GPS backup, because cyber
- www.reuters.com: Cyber threats prompt return of radio for ship navigation

[ This message was edited on Wed Aug 16 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10090-726-90.htm, number 128060, was posted on Thu Aug 17 at 12:05:43
Summer’s Grace by Vanessa Hannam (review)

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Peggy Woodford on a tale of absence at sea:

'ANYONE who enjoys the naval historical novels of Patrick O’Brian will like Summer’s Grace, by Vanessa Hannam.

It tells the story of Commodore George Anson’s voyage in his flagship Centurion, leaving Ports­mouth in 1740 to circumnavi­gate the globe, accompanied by four other great ships. All superficially looks well, but the crews supplied by the corrupt Admiralty are poor sick men impressed from jails, hospitals, and street corners; the ships them­selves are already alive with rats and lice; and food stocks are of the poorest quality.

Unlike O’Brian’s books, Hannam’s main narrative concentrates on those who are left behind: the families who will have to wait months, even years, without news of their loved ones . . '

www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2017/11-august/books-arts/book-reviews/ships-in-the-offing


Message 50e5a913p13-10090-735+04.htm, number 128061, was posted on Thu Aug 17 at 12:15:24
in reply to ad2078cfhi9-10089-766+05.htm

Re^2: The address, "Dundas West" is certainly promising

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Aug 16, Adam Quinan wrote
--------------------------------
>Dundas Road is so-called because it runs towards the small town of Dundas, Ontario. However, Dundas town is named after Heneage's brother, Viscount Melville, 1st Lord of the Admiralty who was more sympathetic to Jack Aubrey than Earl St Vincent, aka Old Jarvy.
>
Dundas, Henry, first Viscount Melville (1742–1811), politician, was born on 28 April 1742 . .  fourth son among seven children of Robert Dundas, Lord Arniston . .

The post Melville wanted and at length got was first lord of the Admiralty. The country felt no less alarmed than in 1797, but he was sure invasion could be defeated. Against it he devised a triple shield: blockade of the enemy's ports, control of the narrow seas, and means of resistance along the coasts. It occurred to him that he could demonstrate to the French the vanity of their designs by running fire ships into the harbours and destroying the transports. He himself sailed across to stand off Boulogne and observe an experiment on these lines—the nearest he ever got to going abroad.

On Melville's taking office the navy had 81 ships of the line afloat. The number of vessels launched during his term at the Admiralty was higher than in any similar period of its history. By the summer of 1805 Britain boasted 105 ships of the line on active service, and five others almost of the same standard. That autumn she would have 120, including 26 new ones. Of these, 80 were deployed round Europe, most on the dreary and arduous duty of blockading; 24 rode off Brest alone. This meant that the French, Dutch, and Spanish fleets, though together bigger than the Royal Navy, were useless because they could not get out of harbour.

Britain then ruled the rest of the world's oceans. Melville maintained that, since there was no chance of challenging Napoleon on land, a bigger and better navy offered the only chance of renewing offensive operations. He was promptly vindicated by Nelson's victory at the battle of Trafalgar. This settled the naval war for the duration. Never again would France dare to challenge Britain at sea. That meant Britain could not be defeated, even while she and her allies were still a long way off defeating France. Nelson had been an untiring importuner at the Admiralty for ever more vessels to deploy in his actions, and Melville had done everything possible to satisfy these demands. He could claim to be the man who made the dead hero's triumph possible.
Impeachment and death.

By the time of Trafalgar, however, Melville had left the Admiralty . .

. . Melville stood high in the estimation of Scotland, Britain, and the empire at the time of his death (in 1811) , as attested by tributes written and monuments erected to him. But he aroused peculiar rancour among the Scots whigs whom he kept so long in the wilderness. His kinsman Henry Cockburn gave them ammunition in his memoirs with many aperçus which were still generous in a personal sense but harped on the plenitude of his power.

This was the prelude to a sharp fall in Melville's reputation in the later nineteenth and the twentieth century. It created a conventional view of him as a monster of corruption and oppression who had sold out his country and countrymen to the English. For good measure Sir John Fortescue's military history condemned Melville's conduct of war, which certainly looked the worse if no account was taken of his maritime strategy. But Vincent Harlow's imperial history, stressing his creative rethinking, began a rehabilitation which in the military sphere was completed by Michael Duffy's and David Geggus's effective refutation of Fortescue's strictures.

More recent scholarship has pointed to his role in maintaining the cohesion of Scottish government and in averting the subordination that Irish government suffered, while making the union of 1707 a partnership which justified calling the empire a British rather than an English one.

DNB.


Message 50e5a913p13-10090-737+04.htm, number 128061, was edited on Thu Aug 17 at 12:17:18
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10090-735+04.htm

'Dundas, Henry, first Viscount Melville (1742–1811), . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Aug 16, Adam Quinan wrote
--------------------------------
>Dundas Road is so-called because it runs towards the small town of Dundas, Ontario. However, Dundas town is named after Heneage's brother, Viscount Melville, 1st Lord of the Admiralty who was more sympathetic to Jack Aubrey than Earl St Vincent, aka Old Jarvy.
>
. . politician, was born on 28 April 1742 . .  fourth son among seven children of Robert Dundas, Lord Arniston . .

The post Melville wanted and at length got was first lord of the Admiralty. The country felt no less alarmed than in 1797, but he was sure invasion could be defeated. Against it he devised a triple shield: blockade of the enemy's ports, control of the narrow seas, and means of resistance along the coasts. It occurred to him that he could demonstrate to the French the vanity of their designs by running fire ships into the harbours and destroying the transports. He himself sailed across to stand off Boulogne and observe an experiment on these lines—the nearest he ever got to going abroad.

On Melville's taking office the navy had 81 ships of the line afloat. The number of vessels launched during his term at the Admiralty was higher than in any similar period of its history. By the summer of 1805 Britain boasted 105 ships of the line on active service, and five others almost of the same standard. That autumn she would have 120, including 26 new ones. Of these, 80 were deployed round Europe, most on the dreary and arduous duty of blockading; 24 rode off Brest alone. This meant that the French, Dutch, and Spanish fleets, though together bigger than the Royal Navy, were useless because they could not get out of harbour.

Britain then ruled the rest of the world's oceans. Melville maintained that, since there was no chance of challenging Napoleon on land, a bigger and better navy offered the only chance of renewing offensive operations. He was promptly vindicated by Nelson's victory at the battle of Trafalgar. This settled the naval war for the duration. Never again would France dare to challenge Britain at sea. That meant Britain could not be defeated, even while she and her allies were still a long way off defeating France. Nelson had been an untiring importuner at the Admiralty for ever more vessels to deploy in his actions, and Melville had done everything possible to satisfy these demands. He could claim to be the man who made the dead hero's triumph possible.
Impeachment and death.

By the time of Trafalgar, however, Melville had left the Admiralty . .

. . Melville stood high in the estimation of Scotland, Britain, and the empire at the time of his death (in 1811) , as attested by tributes written and monuments erected to him. But he aroused peculiar rancour among the Scots whigs whom he kept so long in the wilderness. His kinsman Henry Cockburn gave them ammunition in his memoirs with many aperçus which were still generous in a personal sense but harped on the plenitude of his power.

This was the prelude to a sharp fall in Melville's reputation in the later nineteenth and the twentieth century. It created a conventional view of him as a monster of corruption and oppression who had sold out his country and countrymen to the English. For good measure Sir John Fortescue's military history condemned Melville's conduct of war, which certainly looked the worse if no account was taken of his maritime strategy. But Vincent Harlow's imperial history, stressing his creative rethinking, began a rehabilitation which in the military sphere was completed by Michael Duffy's and David Geggus's effective refutation of Fortescue's strictures.

More recent scholarship has pointed to his role in maintaining the cohesion of Scottish government and in averting the subordination that Irish government suffered, while making the union of 1707 a partnership which justified calling the empire a British rather than an English one.

DNB.

[ This message was edited on Thu Aug 17 by the author ]


Message 6bd5c1a400A-10090-1032-07.htm, number 128062, was posted on Thu Aug 17 at 17:12:21
A Possible Good Read

Lee Shore


I picked up from our library today, The Jersey Brothers by Sally Mott Freeman.  It's about three brothers, all Naval officers, who each are at the epicenter of a crucial moment in WWII. I was attracted to the book by the fact my boyhood town, Audubon, NJ with a population of under 10,000 has three Medal Of Honor recipients, the highest per capita of any town in America. I thought maybe they might have come from there, but they did not. So far I am really enjoying this book. I am surprised to learn of General MacArthur's blatant lack of preparedness in the Philippines.

Message 6242bb3b00A-10090-1244+52.htm, number 128063, was posted on Thu Aug 17 at 20:44:04
in reply to 46d3102500A-10085-1253+57.htm

Re^2: Fram, of course!

YA


www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ToUAkEF_d4
I'll have to watch this movie again someday, maybe I'll be able to make sense ofit.
On Sat Aug 12, Max wrote
------------------------
>By odd coincidence I am reading The Mission Song and Fram just came up appropo of nothing.
>What are the odds?
>
>
>
>n Thu Aug 10, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>It means "forward" in Norwegian. She originally belonged to Nansen. A brilliantly-designed ship for Arctic exploration, she can't be crushed by the ice because her bottom is rounded so the ice will simply push her up. You can take a tour in Oslo.

Message 4747f4808HW-10091-796-30.htm, number 128064, was posted on Fri Aug 18 at 13:16:43
The Long Ships

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Wish me well.  A while ago I wrote down some books I've long wanted to read or reread, and Wednesday I got around to ordering them on eBay. I just got word that The Long Ships has shipped.  Read it just once, as a teenager, and never forgot it.  When I started cooking for myself, I started using thyme purely because of that book, and to this day it's one of a handful of items in my spice cabinet that I'm never without.

Message 47e54da900A-10092-308-07.htm, number 128065, was posted on Sat Aug 19 at 05:07:36
How the sea snake got her black skin.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com

Message c61740a68YV-10092-837+07.htm, number 128066, was posted on Sat Aug 19 at 13:57:00
in reply to 47e54da900A-10092-308-07.htm

What? Are we reverting to the Dark Ages?

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


First we have the swelling ranks of the 'Flat Earth Society', now we have a 'Science' writer for the NYT talking about moths, pigeons and sea snakes 'adapting' (quickly, no less) to pollution!!!!

LaMarck would be proud.



On Sat Aug 19, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www.nytimes


Message 46d3016500A-10092-974+1b.htm, number 128067, was posted on Sat Aug 19 at 16:13:59
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10089-857+1e.htm

Re: LORAN returning as a backup system.

Max



Excellent idea. I am long convinced that GPS will be down exactly when most needed.


On Wed Aug 16, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>An item From SANS NewsBites Vol. 19 Num. 062 (Aug 8).  Email me if you'd like me send you a full copy of this semi-weekly digest of recent computer-security events.

>

Ships Reviving Radio Navigation for GPS Back-Up
>(August 7, 2017)
>  
>Increasing concerns about the reliability of GPS satellite-based navigation systems for ships is prompting some countries to develop radio-based back-up navigation systems. GPS satellite signals can be jammed or spoofed, and are susceptible to interference from solar weather as well as from deliberate attacks.
>  
>Editor's Note:

>[Pescatore]
>Denial of service and ransomware attacks, as well as natural disasters, continue to point out the need for backup capabilities. Just as important as the backup system are the skills people need to periodically test and use the backup systems. Business users dependent on apps that tell them where to turn should still know how to use an actual navigation and maybe even (eek) read a map. (In full disclosure, I'm a ham radio operator and am quite prepared to use Morse Code over HF radio as my Internet backup...)
>
>[Northcutt]
>The Naval Academy went so far as to reinstitute training in celestial navigation. Keep in mind the "founder" of GPS supports the use of e-Loran, blind faith in the easily jammable GPS is not wise. I wonder if any motorists still have paper maps?
>www.npr.org: U.S. Navy Brings Back Navigation By The Stars For Officers

>Read more in:
>- arstechnica.com: Radio navigation set to make global return as GPS backup, because cyber
>- www.reuters.com: Cyber threats prompt return of radio for ship navigation


Message c61740a68YV-10092-1005+1d.htm, number 128068, was posted on Sat Aug 19 at 16:45:23
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10091-796-30.htm

Re: The Long Ships

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Such an enjoyable book.  I wish you joy in your return voyage.  

I don't recall the thyme in particular...(seems like there's a pun in there somewhere).


On Fri Aug 18, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Wish me well.  A while ago I wrote down some books I've long wanted to read or reread, and Wednesday I got around to ordering them on eBay. I just got word that The Long Ships has shipped.  Read it just once, as a teenager, and never forgot it.  When I started cooking for myself, I started using thyme purely because of that book, and to this day it's one of a handful of items in my spice cabinet that I'm never without.


Message 47e54da900A-10093-405-07.htm, number 128069, was posted on Sun Aug 20 at 06:44:42
"USS Indianapolis" found

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2017/08/19/us/uss-indianapolis-wreckage-found/index.html

Message 46d3040800A-10093-602+07.htm, number 128070, was posted on Sun Aug 20 at 10:01:42
in reply to 47e54da900A-10093-405-07.htm

Re: "USS Indianapolis" found

Max


Well done. Now let's record the location and leave it alone.


On Sun Aug 20, Hoyden  wrote
----------------------------
>www.cnn.com/2017/08/19/us/uss-indianapolis-wreckage-found/index.html

Message 47e54da900A-10093-1247-07.htm, number 128071, was posted on Sun Aug 20 at 20:46:53
Another month, another collision. "USS McCain" v tanker

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2017/08/20/asia/us-navy-destroyer-collision-singapore/index.html?adkey=bn

Message 4747f4808HW-10093-1386+1a.htm, number 128072, was posted on Sun Aug 20 at 23:06:09
in reply to 46d3016500A-10092-974+1b.htm

Re^2: LORAN returning as a backup system.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Count on it, by corollary:

/* Law #36 of combat operations:  Radar tends to fail at night and in bad weather, and especially during both. */

On Sat Aug 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>Excellent idea. I am long convinced that GPS will be down exactly when most needed.

>On Wed Aug 16, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>An item From SANS NewsBites Vol. 19 Num. 062 (Aug 8).  Email me if you'd like me send you a full copy of this semi-weekly digest of recent computer-security events.

Ships Reviving Radio Navigation for GPS Back-Up
>>(August 7, 2017)
 
>>Increasing concerns about the reliability of GPS satellite-based navigation systems for ships is prompting some countries to develop radio-based back-up navigation systems. GPS satellite signals can be jammed or spoofed, and are susceptible to interference from solar weather as well as from deliberate attacks.
 
>>Editor's Note:

>>[Pescatore]
>>Denial of service and ransomware attacks, as well as natural disasters, continue to point out the need for backup capabilities. Just as important as the backup system are the skills people need to periodically test and use the backup systems. Business users dependent on apps that tell them where to turn should still know how to use an actual navigation and maybe even (eek) read a map. (In full disclosure, I'm a ham radio operator and am quite prepared to use Morse Code over HF radio as my Internet backup...)

>>[Northcutt]
>>The Naval Academy went so far as to reinstitute training in celestial navigation. Keep in mind the "founder" of GPS supports the use of e-Loran, blind faith in the easily jammable GPS is not wise. I wonder if any motorists still have paper maps?
>>www.npr.org: U.S. Navy Brings Back Navigation By The Stars For Officers

>>Read more in:
>>- arstechnica.com: Radio navigation set to make global return as GPS backup, because cyber
>>- www.reuters.com: Cyber threats prompt return of radio for ship navigation


Message 46d3016500A-10094-155+06.htm, number 128073, was posted on Mon Aug 21 at 02:34:43
in reply to 47e54da900A-10093-1247-07.htm

Re: Another month, another collision. "USS McCain" v tanker

Max


This is seriously screwed up. 4 ships?!


n Sun Aug 20, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www.cnn.com/2017/08/20/asia/us-navy-destroyer-collision-singapore/index.html?adkey=bn

Message c2371a08sVT-10094-183+1b.htm, number 128074, was posted on Mon Aug 21 at 03:02:47
in reply to c61740a68YV-10092-1005+1d.htm

Re^2: The Long Ships

Otto
dweller@meinberlikomm.de


Agreed, a wonderful book.

Someone here recommended it to me long ago. Since then I've given at least four copies away as gifts. My parents both loved. My mother turned her book club on to it.

Thanks again, discussion forum.


Message c2371e07sVT-10094-191+1b.htm, number 128075, was posted on Mon Aug 21 at 03:11:19
in reply to c61740a68YV-10092-1005+1d.htm

Re^2: The Long Ships

Otto
dweller@meinberlikomm.de


Agreed, a wonderful book.

Someone here recommended it to me long ago. Since then I've given at least four copies away as gifts. My parents both loved. My mother turned her book club on to it.

Thanks again, discussion forum.


Message 50e5a913p13-10094-366+06.htm, number 128076, was posted on Mon Aug 21 at 06:05:52
in reply to 47e54da900A-10093-1247-07.htm

Updates

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


latest @ 1000 UTC:

www.c7f.navy.mil/

www.c7f.navy.mil/Media/News/Display/Article/1283915/uss-john-s-mccain-pulls-into-changi-naval-base-update-355-pm-jst-aug-21-2017/


Message c2371a08sVT-10094-523+1b.htm, number 128074, was edited on Mon Aug 21 at 08:43:27
and replaces message c2371a08sVT-10094-183+1b.htm

Re^2: The Long Ships

Otto
dweller@meinberlikomm.de


Agreed, a wonderful book.
I first read it after someone on this forum recommended it warmly.  Since then I've given at least four copies away as gifts. My wife, parents and siblings all loved it. My mother turned her book club on to it.

Thanks again, discussion forum.

[ This message was edited on Mon Aug 21 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-10094-659+1b.htm, number 128077, was posted on Mon Aug 21 at 10:59:21
in reply to c61740a68YV-10092-1005+1d.htm

Re^2: The Long Ships

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I've forgotten some of the dialogue, but it was near the end of the  book; as they were approaching country they knew, they bought a meal at an inn and rejoiced at food that tasted at least somewhat like home.  "There is thyme in it", one of them said with tears in his eyes.  For some reason that stuck in my memory.  I don't think I was able to identify thyme in my own food at the time, but as an adult thyme and marjoram are two of a handful of spices I never allow to run out.

On Sat Aug 19, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Such an enjoyable book.  I wish you joy in your return voyage.  

>I don't recall the thyme in particular...(seems like there's a pun in there somewhere).

>On Fri Aug 18, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Wish me well.  A while ago I wrote down some books I've long wanted to read or reread, and Wednesday I got around to ordering them on eBay. I just got word that The Long Ships has shipped.  Read it just once, as a teenager, and never forgot it.  When I started cooking for myself, I started using thyme purely because of that book, and to this day it's one of a handful of items in my spice cabinet that I'm never without.


Message c61740a68YV-10094-751+06.htm, number 128078, was posted on Mon Aug 21 at 12:31:10
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10094-366+06.htm

Re: Query...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


How do you not notice that a 600-ft vessel is too close to you?

The hell with the laser guns - seems as if our navy can be taken out by unarmed merchant ships.  The shipyards here DO seem to be inordinately busy these days....

So, I work 3 blocks from the front gate of North Island and live within a mile of Miramar (the 'Top Gun' from the movie, now it is in Nevada... still have Osprey and bombers flying over the house, though)

Protected or Target, do you think?


Message 56003e26cb5-10094-774+06.htm, number 128079, was posted on Mon Aug 21 at 12:53:54
in reply to 46d3040800A-10093-602+07.htm

As a war grave, it should not be touched.

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


In the USA it's governed by the Sunken Military Craft Act. The Navy may issue permits to dive on the location for specific purposes only.

Here's a brief summary:

Revised Navy Sunken and Terrestrial Military Craft Permitting Guidelines Published in Federal Register


Message 50e5a913p13-10094-792+06.htm, number 128080, was posted on Mon Aug 21 at 13:12:13
in reply to 46d3040800A-10093-602+07.htm

Other wrecks have been salvaged

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Aug 20, Max wrote
------------------------
>Well done. Now let's record the location and leave it alone.

The great depth of this wreck (3+ miles) may save it from the salvage scavengers, unlike HMS Exeter, 200’ down, which has virtually disappeared as have several Dutch warships.


Message 50e5a913p13-10094-794+06.htm, number 128081, was posted on Mon Aug 21 at 13:14:18
in reply to 56003e26cb5-10094-774+06.htm

Which it’s in the Philippines’ waters . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Aug 21, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>In the USA it's governed by the Sunken Military Craft Act. The Navy may issue permits to dive on the location for specific purposes only.

. . so protecting it - or not - iss amatter for them.


Message 4747f4808HW-10095-555+12.htm, number 128082, was posted on Tue Aug 22 at 09:15:41
in reply to 31bb0f9f00A-10085-236+1c.htm

Re^2: What do we think of that fellow... (on-topic)

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


It's an interesting contrast, the apparent brusqueness and the happy ship.  I'm reminded that I did something similar myself, probably more than once but I have one episode in mind.  I grew up in Minnesota, but I was currently living in NC, engaged to a woman born in Wilmington NC.  During part of our engagement I was going to UNC-G in her home town, and I ate at her parents' house frequently.  Her father was from Georgia and her mother local.  My future mother-in-law, according to the practice she grew up with, on many occasions offered me more of <insert dish here> ("Bob, would you like more collard greens?" / "There's more corn if you'd like some.")  I never quite understood the rationale, since the dish was in plain sight on the table and they'd always made me feel perfectly comfortable so I could certainly ask if I wanted anything.  I usually said so—not impatiently, just smiling and saying that I could see it plainly there and could ask.

On this particular evening, as she offered something yet again, I said nothing, just opened my mouth wide as a child being fed and looked at her expectantly.  She threw a pea at me (pleasing me mightily), and understanding was established.

I mention this not exactly to defend Vandeput (or for that matter myself) but to suggest that maybe the discourtesy of his first words were not meant in the spirit that they appear in writing.

On Sat Aug 12, wombat wrote
---------------------------
>Maybe PO'B meant to hint at the flaws in the personalities of both Clonfert and Corbett? A hint of further clashes? (I'm not sure as I haven't re-read TMC in years).

>I googled because googling is what I *do*. PO'B lifted the episode straight from "Life of a Seaman". Cochrane was being pleasant to his new admiral, Vandeput, a man who could be intimidating on first aquaintance:

>"On joining this ship a few days afterwards my reception was anything but encouraging.

>"Being seated near the admiral at dinner, he inquired what dish was before me. Mentioning its nature, I asked if he would permit me to help him. The uncourteous reply was — that whenever he wished for anything he was in the habit of asking for it. Not knowing what to make of a rebuff of this nature, it was  met by an inquiry if he would allow me the honour  of taking wine with him. "I never take wine with  any man, my lord," was the unexpected reply, from  which it struck me that my lot was cast among Goths, if no worse".

>On further acquaintance the admiral proved to be one of the kindest of commanders. "There was not a happier ship afloat, nor one in which the officers lived in more perfect harmony".

>On Thu Aug 10, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>>What do we think of that fellow who said, "I never drink a glass of wine with any man"? I believe he said this to Clonfert in The Mauritius Command. This seems deliberately offensive, and I can't imagine the justification for it. If you drink wine, why should you not drink a glass in friendship with another, as custom doth dictate? Is there some obligation imposed thereby, that he wished to avoid?


Message 50e5a913p13-10095-843-90.htm, number 128083, was posted on Tue Aug 22 at 14:02:55
Cooperation is the key to defeating pirates – here’s why

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘PIRATES are notoriously hard to capture. Their actions occur on the shifting, vast expanse of the open oceans. Perpetrators cannot simply be “arrested” by a conventional police force and, even if they are caught, it’s a challenge to prosecute an offender who by their very nature transcends borders. There is no single answer to the problem, particularly given pirates’ different guises and motivations. Yet a study of historical anti-piracy operations, both ancient and recent, does reveal one commonality in the repression of piracy: international cooperation . .

Yet piracy is going nowhere anytime soon. The Gulf of Guinea and the seas of South-East Asia, both areas where valuable maritime trade clashes with lacklustre governance, have superseded East Africa as new “pirate hotspots” where successors to Blackbeard’s brethren continue to put maritime trade to the sword.
New approaches are needed, and the root causes have to be addressed. Yet the core of any successful strategy will always be the same: international cooperation and unity of purpose. The international community must constantly unite against common threats, be they piracy, terrorism, or international crime.

[theconversation.com/cooperation-is-the-key-to-defeating-pirates-heres-why-80427]
[www.hellenicshippingnews.com/nigerian-piracy-in-the-gulf-of-guinea-a-major-risk-for-merchant-shipping/]
[www.dw.com/en/southeast-asia-a-pirates-paradise/a-18599742]


Message 47e54da900A-10098-359-07.htm, number 128084, was posted on Fri Aug 25 at 05:58:59
Rain in the Atacama Desert. Stephen would go a-botanizing.

Hoyden


qz.com/1061207/atacama-desert-the-driest-place-on-earth-is-blooming-with-flowers-after-surprise-rainfall/?mc_cid=ace82beedb&mc_eid=7bdf330d5e

Message 4747f4808HW-10098-663-30.htm, number 128085, was posted on Fri Aug 25 at 11:03:01
Continuing the sea-snake conversation

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


The article says in part "It’s sort of like the moths in Europe that swapped speckled for black wings during the Industrial Revolution, evading hungry birds by blending in with coal dust."  I read that without a qualm the first time through, forgetting until just now that the famous moths didn't adapt.  We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered.

I have a hard time taking the Flat-Earth society seriously, by the way.  I got the impression somewhere that it's sort of an insider joke, that they don't really believe the earth is flat.  I shouldn't underestimate the stupidity potential—maybe a few do—but not the membership as a whole, surely.

On Sat Aug 19, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>First we have the swelling ranks of the 'Flat Earth Society', now we have a 'Science' writer for the NYT talking about moths, pigeons and sea snakes 'adapting' (quickly, no less) to pollution!!!!

>LaMarck would be proud.

>On Sat Aug 19, Hoyden wrote
>---------------------------
>>www.nytimes


Message 50e5a913p13-10098-803-90.htm, number 128086, was posted on Fri Aug 25 at 13:23:29
Life cycle of the dodo revealed

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


BULBOUS-beaked, plump and puny-winged, the dodo has been immortalised by humans in art, literature and song. But while the peculiar animals have inspired a panoply of research, not least as to whether they were really bird-brained or as corpulent as portraits implied, much about the dodo’s life has remained a mystery until now.

Scientists studying remains of the extinct avians say they have managed to put flesh on the bones of the dodo’s existence, revealing aspects of their life from when they laid eggs to how quickly they reached adulthood, and even that they shed and regrew their plumage each year . .

[www.theguardian.com/science/2017/aug/24/life-cycle-of-the-mysterious-and-long-dead-dodo-revealed-by-bone-study#img-2]

or, more formally:

‘CONCLUSION: This study of the bone histology of the dodo provides insight into the life history of this recently extinct bird. In order to deduce the timing of the events such as reproduction and molting we have considered the histological patterns, modern birds in Mauritius and the ecology of the area.

From these we propose that the breeding season started several months before the austral summer (around August) with ovulation in the females, and that it occurred after a period of potential fattening, which corresponds with the fat and thin cycles recorded in many Mauritian vertebrates, both living and extinct.

We further suggest, that after the eggs were laid and chicks hatched, they grew quickly to almost adult body size and attained sexual maturity before the cyclone period in the austral summer. Additionally, our findings could indicate that following the breeding season and the end of the austral summer, molting began (around March) with the replacement of the feathers of the wings and the tail first.

Thus, at the end of July, the molt would have been completed in time for the next breeding season. These novel findings about the life history of the dodo have been deduced from the bone microstructure and the proposed timing thereof appear to correlate well with the current observations of modern birds in Mauritius, and have been further corroborated by historical descriptions.

[Bone histology sheds new light on the ecology of the dodo (Raphus cucullatus, Aves, Columbiformes) Scientific Reports (2017). nature.com/articles/doi:10.1038/s41598-017-08536-3 ]


Message c61740a68YV-10098-876+1e.htm, number 128087, was posted on Fri Aug 25 at 14:37:05
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10098-663-30.htm

Re: Continuing the sea-snake conversation

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Beware the uneducated...

Check out YouTube for a stupendous amount of stupidity related to 'proof' of the Earth being flat.  These people are serious - they have 'proof'. Mathematics, Physics and Logic are not subjects with which they are familiar.

What does this sentence mean? -

"We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

Who are 'We' and who told you that?  This happened 150 years ago - in Europe.

YOU should never have been told that was true in any American science class.

The black/white moth scenario is a classic example of Charles Darwin's Natural Selection. The white moths die off; the black moths live to procreate.

Lamarck's theory was that species could 'adapt' (alter their appearance, or whatever other change was necessary) within a single lifetime and pass that change onto their progeny.

Genetics, anyone?



On Fri Aug 25, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>The article says in part "It’s sort of like the moths in Europe that swapped speckled for black wings during the Industrial Revolution, evading hungry birds by blending in with coal dust."  I read that without a qualm the first time through, forgetting until just now that the famous moths didn't adapt.  We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered.

>I have a hard time taking the Flat-Earth society seriously, by the way.  I got the impression somewhere that it's sort of an insider joke, that they don't really believe the earth is flat.  I shouldn't underestimate the stupidity potential—maybe a few do—but not the membership as a whole, surely.

>On Sat Aug 19, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>First we have the swelling ranks of the 'Flat Earth Society', now we have a 'Science' writer for the NYT talking about moths, pigeons and sea snakes 'adapting' (quickly, no less) to pollution!!!!

>>LaMarck would be proud.

>>On Sat Aug 19, Hoyden wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>www.nytimes


Message 6242bb3b00A-10098-982+1e.htm, number 128088, was posted on Fri Aug 25 at 16:22:14
in reply to c61740a68YV-10098-876+1e.htm

Re^2: Continuing the sea-snake conversation

YA


"light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

Or, ya know, the population adapted through natural selection.

Enjoy your game of pigeon chess, I'll be over here popping popcorn.

On Fri Aug 25, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Beware the uneducated...

>Check out YouTube for a stupendous amount of stupidity related to 'proof' of the Earth being flat.  These people are serious - they have 'proof'. Mathematics, Physics and Logic are not subjects with which they are familiar.

>What does this sentence mean? -

>"We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

>Who are 'We' and who told you that?  This happened 150 years ago - in Europe.

>YOU should never have been told that was true in any American science class.

>The black/white moth scenario is a classic example of Charles Darwin's Natural Selection. The white moths die off; the black moths live to procreate.

>Lamarck's theory was that species could 'adapt' (alter their appearance, or whatever other change was necessary) within a single lifetime and pass that change onto their progeny.

>Genetics, anyone?
>
>
>
>On Fri Aug 25, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>The article says in part "It’s sort of like the moths in Europe that swapped speckled for black wings during the Industrial Revolution, evading hungry birds by blending in with coal dust."  I read that without a qualm the first time through, forgetting until just now that the famous moths didn't adapt.  We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered.

>>I have a hard time taking the Flat-Earth society seriously, by the way.  I got the impression somewhere that it's sort of an insider joke, that they don't really believe the earth is flat.  I shouldn't underestimate the stupidity potential—maybe a few do—but not the membership as a whole, surely.

>>On Sat Aug 19, akatow wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>First we have the swelling ranks of the 'Flat Earth Society', now we have a 'Science' writer for the NYT talking about moths, pigeons and sea snakes 'adapting' (quickly, no less) to pollution!!!!

>>>LaMarck would be proud.

>>>On Sat Aug 19, Hoyden wrote
>>>---------------------------
>>>>www.nytimes


Message c61740a68YV-10098-1026+1e.htm, number 128089, was posted on Fri Aug 25 at 17:06:44
in reply to 6242bb3b00A-10098-982+1e.htm

Re^3: What?

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


I'm missing your point.  The NYT's article was stating the Lamarckian solution (swapped speckled wings), not Bob.

But Bob said, "We were told....etc" as if that had been presented to him at some time as a fact.  I certainly hope that is not the case.

And I'd be really happy if the 'Trilobites' author rewrote that piece to reflect reality.


On Fri Aug 25, YA wrote
-----------------------
>"light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

>Or, ya know, the population adapted through natural selection.

>Enjoy your game of pigeon chess, I'll be over here popping popcorn.

>On Fri Aug 25, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>Beware the uneducated...

>>Check out YouTube for a stupendous amount of stupidity related to 'proof' of the Earth being flat.  These people are serious - they have 'proof'. Mathematics, Physics and Logic are not subjects with which they are familiar.

>>What does this sentence mean? -

>>"We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

>>Who are 'We' and who told you that?  This happened 150 years ago - in Europe.

>>YOU should never have been told that was true in any American science class.

>>The black/white moth scenario is a classic example of Charles Darwin's Natural Selection. The white moths die off; the black moths live to procreate.

>>Lamarck's theory was that species could 'adapt' (alter their appearance, or whatever other change was necessary) within a single lifetime and pass that change onto their progeny.

>>Genetics, anyone?
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri Aug 25, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>The article says in part "It’s sort of like the moths in Europe that swapped speckled for black wings during the Industrial Revolution, evading hungry birds by blending in with coal dust."  I read that without a qualm the first time through, forgetting until just now that the famous moths didn't adapt.  We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered.

>>>I have a hard time taking the Flat-Earth society seriously, by the way.  I got the impression somewhere that it's sort of an insider joke, that they don't really believe the earth is flat.  I shouldn't underestimate the stupidity potential—maybe a few do—but not the membership as a whole, surely.

>>>On Sat Aug 19, akatow wrote
>>>---------------------------
>>>>First we have the swelling ranks of the 'Flat Earth Society', now we have a 'Science' writer for the NYT talking about moths, pigeons and sea snakes 'adapting' (quickly, no less) to pollution!!!!

>>>>LaMarck would be proud.

>>>>On Sat Aug 19, Hoyden wrote
>>>>---------------------------
>>>>>www.nytimes


Message c61740a68YV-10098-1036+1e.htm, number 128089, was edited on Fri Aug 25 at 17:16:17
and replaces message c61740a68YV-10098-1026+1e.htm

Re^3: What?

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


I'm missing your point.  The NYT's article was stating the Lamarckian solution (swapped speckled wings), not Bob.

But Bob said, "We were told....etc" as if that had been presented to him at some time as a fact.  I certainly hope that is not the case.

And I'd be really happy if the 'Trilobites' author rewrote that piece to reflect reality because it's the same fuzzy logic as what the Flat Earth Society is using,e.g. -  The horizon is flat therefore the Earth must be flat.  Don't you believe what your own eyes tell you?

The moths didn't swap out their wings and the snakes didn't change their color.

On Fri Aug 25, YA wrote
-----------------------
>"light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

>Or, ya know, the population adapted through natural selection.

>Enjoy your game of pigeon chess, I'll be over here popping popcorn.

>On Fri Aug 25, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>Beware the uneducated...

>>Check out YouTube for a stupendous amount of stupidity related to 'proof' of the Earth being flat.  These people are serious - they have 'proof'. Mathematics, Physics and Logic are not subjects with which they are familiar.

>>What does this sentence mean? -

>>"We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

>>Who are 'We' and who told you that?  This happened 150 years ago - in Europe.

>>YOU should never have been told that was true in any American science class.

>>The black/white moth scenario is a classic example of Charles Darwin's Natural Selection. The white moths die off; the black moths live to procreate.

>>Lamarck's theory was that species could 'adapt' (alter their appearance, or whatever other change was necessary) within a single lifetime and pass that change onto their progeny.

>>Genetics, anyone?
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri Aug 25, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>The article says in part "It’s sort of like the moths in Europe that swapped speckled for black wings during the Industrial Revolution, evading hungry birds by blending in with coal dust."  I read that without a qualm the first time through, forgetting until just now that the famous moths didn't adapt.  We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered.

>>>I have a hard time taking the Flat-Earth society seriously, by the way.  I got the impression somewhere that it's sort of an insider joke, that they don't really believe the earth is flat.  I shouldn't underestimate the stupidity potential—maybe a few do—but not the membership as a whole, surely.

>>>On Sat Aug 19, akatow wrote
>>>---------------------------
>>>>First we have the swelling ranks of the 'Flat Earth Society', now we have a 'Science' writer for the NYT talking about moths, pigeons and sea snakes 'adapting' (quickly, no less) to pollution!!!!

>>>>LaMarck would be proud.

>>>>On Sat Aug 19, Hoyden wrote
>>>>---------------------------
>>>>>www.nytimes

[ This message was edited on Fri Aug 25 by the author ]


Message 6242bb3b00A-10098-1124+1e.htm, number 128090, was posted on Fri Aug 25 at 18:47:19
in reply to c61740a68YV-10098-1036+1e.htm

Re^4: What?

YA


My point was he denies adaptation occurs, then describes the process of adaption.
"...the famous moths didn't adapt... light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

If his implication is that the light winged moths died of depression at not being able to affect color change by force of will, I missed it, and it's moot to my point.  

Anyway, here's proof of Lamarkianism:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbLSFECkhx0


On Fri Aug 25, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>I'm missing your point.  The NYT's article was stating the Lamarckian solution (swapped speckled wings), not Bob.

>But Bob said, "We were told....etc" as if that had been presented to him at some time as a fact.  I certainly hope that is not the case.

>And I'd be really happy if the 'Trilobites' author rewrote that piece to reflect reality because it's the same fuzzy logic as what the Flat Earth Society is using,e.g. -  The horizon is flat therefore the Earth must be flat.  Don't you believe what your own eyes tell you?

>The moths didn't swap out their wings and the snakes didn't change their color.

>On Fri Aug 25, YA wrote
>-----------------------
>>"light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

>>Or, ya know, the population adapted through natural selection.

>>Enjoy your game of pigeon chess, I'll be over here popping popcorn.

>>On Fri Aug 25, akatow wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>Beware the uneducated...

>>>Check out YouTube for a stupendous amount of stupidity related to 'proof' of the Earth being flat.  These people are serious - they have 'proof'. Mathematics, Physics and Logic are not subjects with which they are familiar.

>>>What does this sentence mean? -

>>>"We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

>>>Who are 'We' and who told you that?  This happened 150 years ago - in Europe.

>>>YOU should never have been told that was true in any American science class.

>>>The black/white moth scenario is a classic example of Charles Darwin's Natural Selection. The white moths die off; the black moths live to procreate.

>>>Lamarck's theory was that species could 'adapt' (alter their appearance, or whatever other change was necessary) within a single lifetime and pass that change onto their progeny.

>>>Genetics, anyone?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Fri Aug 25, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>--------------------------------
>>>>The article says in part "It’s sort of like the moths in Europe that swapped speckled for black wings during the Industrial Revolution, evading hungry birds by blending in with coal dust."  I read that without a qualm the first time through, forgetting until just now that the famous moths didn't adapt.  We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered.

>>>>I have a hard time taking the Flat-Earth society seriously, by the way.  I got the impression somewhere that it's sort of an insider joke, that they don't really believe the earth is flat.  I shouldn't underestimate the stupidity potential—maybe a few do—but not the membership as a whole, surely.

>>>>On Sat Aug 19, akatow wrote
>>>>---------------------------
>>>>>First we have the swelling ranks of the 'Flat Earth Society', now we have a 'Science' writer for the NYT talking about moths, pigeons and sea snakes 'adapting' (quickly, no less) to pollution!!!!

>>>>>LaMarck would be proud.

>>>>>On Sat Aug 19, Hoyden wrote
>>>>>---------------------------
>>>>>>www.nytimes


Message 47e54da900A-10099-411-07.htm, number 128091, was posted on Sat Aug 26 at 06:51:17
Peter Guillam is back. "A Legacy of Spies"

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/books/review/john-le-carre-ben-m

Message 44654cc700A-10099-663+1d.htm, number 128092, was posted on Sat Aug 26 at 11:03:37
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10098-663-30.htm

Re: Continuing with moths instead

A-Polly


Speaking of moths and adaptations, did Stephen ever describe one of these?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=prZ8nlqQedE
This is a hummingbird hawk-moth, filmed in Norwich.  I didn't realize that there are no hummingbirds in the UK or Europe, but this moth looks exactly like one!  Can't help but think Stephen would be fascinated.


On Fri Aug 25, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>The article says in part "It’s sort of like the moths in Europe that swapped speckled for black wings during the Industrial Revolution, evading hungry birds by blending in with coal dust."  I read that without a qualm the first time through, forgetting until just now that the famous moths didn't adapt.  We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered.

>I have a hard time taking the Flat-Earth society seriously, by the way.  I got the impression somewhere that it's sort of an insider joke, that they don't really believe the earth is flat.  I shouldn't underestimate the stupidity potential—maybe a few do—but not the membership as a whole, surely.

>On Sat Aug 19, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>First we have the swelling ranks of the 'Flat Earth Society', now we have a 'Science' writer for the NYT talking about moths, pigeons and sea snakes 'adapting' (quickly, no less) to pollution!!!!

>>LaMarck would be proud.

>>On Sat Aug 19, Hoyden wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>www.nytimes


Message 4747f4808HW-10099-776+1d.htm, number 128093, was posted on Sat Aug 26 at 12:57:10
in reply to 6242bb3b00A-10098-1124+1e.htm

I wrote sloppily

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I was thinking that everyone had the same experience in school that I did, so I encapsulated briefly and sloppily, expecting everyone to know what I meant.  Sorry, my bad.  Here's the same thing written out in longhand:

When I was in high school, say in the late '60s, I was taught that pollution in London had gotten so bad that soot and other particulates had darkened the tree trunks, and that moths with light-colored wings were more visible to their predators.  But after a while, moths with darker wings started showing up, more difficult to see.  It's been a lot of years but as I recall this was explained to me, or at least I understood it at the time, as a minor example of evolution in action: The light-winged moths were dying off, but as a species evolved darker wings to survive.  At the time I accepted it.

I later heard the pollution had been somewhat cleared up, the tree trunks began to show lighter in color, and the same process of evolution worked in reverse, that is, moths began to have light wings again.

Later still, when I was in my 20s or 30s I suppose, I read that this is not to be considered an example of a species of moth evolving to survive changing circumstances; there were simply two species or perhaps subspecies of moth.  As the tree trunks darkened, the [sub]species with lighter wings became rarer and the [sub]species with darker wings began to do better.  The reverse happened as the pollution was cleared up.  I accepted this explanation as more likely than evolution by mutation.

Parenthesis: I've noticed that although scientists insist evolution works by random processes, most people including many scientists talk about the "purpose" of various evolutionary changes, as though there is a designer behind it all.  The ones that deny that a hypothetical god has anything to do with it then talk about "Nature" instead.  It seems to me this confuses their language and probably their thoughts as well.  Thus I say above that I understood that the moths had "evolved" darker wings "in order to survive".  This may have been my misunderstanding, but it's how I remember it being presented to me.  Jan, it doesn't sound to me as though you suffer from that confusion.

For akatow: I don't recall anyone telling me it had happened a century before.  (If 150 years ago now, then about 100 years ago when I was in high school.  Boy, time flies.)  I always thought of it as reasonably current, say during the '40s and '50s.  Placing it toward the end of the Industrial Revolution makes more sense.

For YA: As I said, I wrote sloppily.  The above may have made it clear, but when I said the moth species didn't adapt, I meant that a species didn't change their genes to start producing darker wings, but that one species of moth started to do better than the other under the changing circumstances.

Now that I'm required to think about this whole thing, I realize that I don't really know what was happening.  Were the observers at the time mistaking the light- and dark-winged moths for members of the same species?  Were they the same species?  How much genetic variation does it take to produce this difference?  <troll>It's the difference between macroevolution (which seems pretty unscientific to me) and microevolution, which I have no trouble accepting.</troll>

On Fri Aug 25, YA wrote
-----------------------
>My point was he denies adaptation occurs, then describes the process of adaption.
>"...the famous moths didn't adapt... light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

> If his implication is that the light winged moths died of depression at not being able to affect color change by force of will, I missed it, and it's moot to my point.  

>Anyway, here's proof of Lamarkianism:
>www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbLSFECkhx0

>On Fri Aug 25, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>I'm missing your point.  The NYT's article was stating the Lamarckian solution (swapped speckled wings), not Bob.

>>But Bob said, "We were told....etc" as if that had been presented to him at some time as a fact.  I certainly hope that is not the case.

>>And I'd be really happy if the 'Trilobites' author rewrote that piece to reflect reality because it's the same fuzzy logic as what the Flat Earth Society is using,e.g. -  The horizon is flat therefore the Earth must be flat.  Don't you believe what your own eyes tell you?

>>The moths didn't swap out their wings and the snakes didn't change their color.

>>On Fri Aug 25, YA wrote
>>-----------------------
>>>"light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

>>>Or, ya know, the population adapted through natural selection.

>>>Enjoy your game of pigeon chess, I'll be over here popping popcorn.

>>>On Fri Aug 25, akatow wrote
>>>---------------------------
>>>>Beware the uneducated...

>>>>Check out YouTube for a stupendous amount of stupidity related to 'proof' of the Earth being flat.  These people are serious - they have 'proof'. Mathematics, Physics and Logic are not subjects with which they are familiar.

>>>>What does this sentence mean? -

>>>>"We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered."

>>>>Who are 'We' and who told you that?  This happened 150 years ago - in Europe.

>>>>YOU should never have been told that was true in any American science class.

>>>>The black/white moth scenario is a classic example of Charles Darwin's Natural Selection. The white moths die off; the black moths live to procreate.

>>>>Lamarck's theory was that species could 'adapt' (alter their appearance, or whatever other change was necessary) within a single lifetime and pass that change onto their progeny.

>>>>Genetics, anyone?

>>>>On Fri Aug 25, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>>--------------------------------
>>>>>The article says in part "It’s sort of like the moths in Europe that swapped speckled for black wings during the Industrial Revolution, evading hungry birds by blending in with coal dust."  I read that without a qualm the first time through, forgetting until just now that the famous moths didn't adapt.  We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered.

>>>>>I have a hard time taking the Flat-Earth society seriously, by the way.  I got the impression somewhere that it's sort of an insider joke, that they don't really believe the earth is flat.  I shouldn't underestimate the stupidity potential—maybe a few do—but not the membership as a whole, surely.

>>>>>On Sat Aug 19, akatow wrote
>>>>>---------------------------
>>>>>>First we have the swelling ranks of the 'Flat Earth Society', now we have a 'Science' writer for the NYT talking about moths, pigeons and sea snakes 'adapting' (quickly, no less) to pollution!!!!

>>>>>>LaMarck would be proud.

>>>>>>On Sat Aug 19, Hoyden wrote
>>>>>>---------------------------
>>>>>>>www.nytimes


Message 50e5a913p13-10099-889+1d.htm, number 128094, was posted on Sat Aug 26 at 14:50:06
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10098-663-30.htm

Follow the links!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Aug 25, Bob Bridges wrote
————————————————
. . forgetting until just now that the famous moths didn't adapt.  We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered.

There’s adapt at the organism level (e.g. sheltering from a shower under a tree to keep dry) and at the species level as the moths did. The OED lists 7 distinct meanings for ‘adapt; the three from biology are relevant:

'ada t, v. Middle French . .
. . 6. trans. Biol. To modify (an organism, or part of one) through evolutionary change so that it better suits its environment or function. Usually with to, for.
1859 C. Darwin Origin of Species iv. 87 In social animals it [sc. natural selection] will adapt the structure of each individual for the benefit of the community . .

. . 7. intr. Biol.
a. Of an organism: to become acclimatized to environmental conditions, esp. new or changing conditions, through physiological or behavioural change.
. . 2008 N. Draper & C. Hodgson Adventure Sport Physiol. x. 388/1 As you adapt to altitude, catecholamine secretion is reduced.

. . b. Of a variety or species of organism: to become modified through evolution to better fit the environment or an ecological niche. Frequently with to.
1956 Sci. News-let. 12 May 302/2 Through evolution, living creatures adapt closely to their environment . . ‘

The moths are 7.b. 6.a is equivalent.
…………………
From the linked NYT and scientific paper:

. . In a study published in Nature, researchers have pinpointed the precise genetic mutation that led to the darker moth and determined just when this mutation occurred. The same gene, called cortex, was also found to control color patterns on the wings of tropical butterflies in a separate study.

The once rare black peppered moth became commonplace in the United Kingdom during the Industrial Revolution, when its original light speckled wings became a clear target for predators against tree trunks darkened by coal soot. A black version of the same species appeared around 1819, according to the new study. By blending in with the coal-darkened trees, it avoided becoming lunch for birds, passed down its genes and outnumbered the original moth in urban areas for a time.

After searching through a large area of this moth’s genome, Ilik Saccheri, an evolutionary ecologist, and his colleagues at the University of Liverpool found that a single mutation on a gene called cortex was responsible for the wings’ black coloring. The mutation is on a “jumping gene,” or a transposable element, which can hop between locations on the genome . .

[www.nytimes.com/2016/06/02/science/moths-butterflies-dna-cortex-genes.html]

‘The industrial melanism mutation in British peppered moths is a transposable element’

‘Discovering the mutational events that fuel adaptation to environmental change remains an important challenge for evolutionary biology. The classroom example of a visible evolutionary response is industrial melanism in the peppered moth (Biston betularia): the replacement, during the Industrial Revolution, of the common pale typica form by a previously unknown black (carbonaria) form, driven by the interaction between bird predation and coal pollution1. The carbonaria locus has been coarsely localized to a 200-kilobase region, but the specific identity and nature of the sequence difference controlling the carbonaria–typica polymorphism, and the gene it influences, are unknown.

Here we show that the mutation event giving rise to industrial melanism in Britain was the insertion of a large, tandemly repeated, transposable element into the first intron of the gene cortex. Statistical inference based on the distribution of recombined carbonaria haplotypes indicates that this transposition event occurred around 1819, consistent with the historical record. We have begun to dissect the mode of action of the carbonaria transposable element by showing that it increases the abundance of a cortex transcript, the protein product of which plays an important role in cell-cycle regulation, during early wing disc development.

Our findings fill a substantial knowledge gap in the iconic example of microevolutionary change, adding a further layer of insight into the mechanism of adaptation in response to natural selection. The discovery that the mutation itself is a transposable element will stimulate further debate about the importance of ‘jumping genes’ as a source of major phenotypic novelty3.’

Arjen E. van’t Hof et al. Nature 534, 102–105 (02 June 2016)
[www.nature.com/nature/journal/v534/n7605/full/nature17951.html]


Message 4747f4808HW-10099-1196+56.htm, number 128095, was posted on Sat Aug 26 at 19:56:29
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10095-843-90.htm

"Arrest"?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'm sure I'm not the only one who paused at this word.  The various armed forces who encounter pirates on the high seas may have to think about arresting them, unless they are caught in the very act; but surely the pirates' intended victims have no such need.

On Tue Aug 22, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>‘PIRATES are notoriously hard to capture. Their actions occur on the shifting, vast expanse of the open oceans. Perpetrators cannot simply be “arrested” by a conventional police force and, even if they are caught, it’s a challenge to prosecute an offender who by their very nature transcends borders. There is no single answer to the problem, particularly given pirates’ different guises and motivations. Yet a study of historical anti-piracy operations, both ancient and recent, does reveal one commonality in the repression of piracy: international cooperation . .

>Yet piracy is going nowhere anytime soon. The Gulf of Guinea and the seas of South-East Asia, both areas where valuable maritime trade clashes with lacklustre governance, have superseded East Africa as new “pirate hotspots” where successors to Blackbeard’s brethren continue to put maritime trade to the sword.
>New approaches are needed, and the root causes have to be addressed. Yet the core of any successful strategy will always be the same: international cooperation and unity of purpose. The international community must constantly unite against common threats, be they piracy, terrorism, or international crime.

>[theconversation.com/cooperation-is-the-key-to-defeating-pirates-heres-why-80427]
>[www.hellenicshippingnews.com/nigerian-piracy-in-the-gulf-of-guinea-a-major-risk-for-merchant-shipping/]
>[www.dw.com/en/southeast-asia-a-pirates-paradise/a-18599742]


Message c61740a68YV-10100-960-90.htm, number 128096, was posted on Sun Aug 27 at 16:00:20
Dressing a Regency Lady

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Shamelessly lifted from FB, this video would have answered a lot of questions back in the day.


Message 47e54da900A-10101-353+1b.htm, number 128097, was posted on Mon Aug 28 at 05:52:58
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10099-776+1d.htm

Speaking of (sexy) moths

Hoyden


www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/sexy-females-help-plain-jane-moths-snag-their-mates?mc_cid=50b329aae1&mc_eid=7bdf330d5e

Message 50e5a913p13-10101-811-90.htm, number 128098, was posted on Mon Aug 28 at 13:30:53
Why Houston has a problem

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


(Monday 6 pm BST):  . . Scientific American just posted an interview with Jeff Masters, co-founder of Weather Underground, who explains Harvey’s extraordinary destructive potency.

On Wednesday it was a tropical storm. By Friday it had been supercharged from a Category 1 hurricane to Category 4. That’s because Harvey passed over an . . extremely warm eddy, 1 to 2 degrees F warmer than the surrounding Gulf of Mexico . . [it] has become wedged between two areas of high-pressure, one system over the SE U.S, the other over the SW U.S. . .

Harvey is still producing so much rain despite being mostly over land [because] it has dropped so much water over such a large area of SE Texas that the storm is pulling that water back up into itself and dumping it again as more rain . . [The] flooding in Houston is so severe [because] water swollen rivers heading to the sea is meeting a storm surge coming inland. In Galveston the sea surge was about 3’ but the actual water surge was about 9’ . .

A low-pressure trough system has been forming north of Harvey and could begin to pull it northward by the end of the week.

[www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2017/aug/28/ex-hurricane-harvey-houston-flooded-as-catastrophe-unfolds-in-texas-latest-updates] 1740 BST


Message 5b7ddbde00A-10102-17+1a.htm, number 128099, was posted on Tue Aug 29 at 00:16:55
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10099-776+1d.htm

Re: I wrote sloppily

Kate Bunting


On Sat Aug 26, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I was thinking that everyone had the same experience in school that I did, so I encapsulated briefly and sloppily, expecting everyone to know what I meant.  Sorry, my bad.  Here's the same thing written out in longhand:

>When I was in high school, say in the late '60s, I was taught that pollution in London had gotten so bad that soot and other particulates had darkened the tree trunks, and that moths with light-colored wings were more visible to their predators.  But after a while, moths with darker wings started showing up, more difficult to see.  It's been a lot of years but as I recall this was explained to me, or at least I understood it at the time, as a minor example of evolution in action: The light-winged moths were dying off, but as a species evolved darker wings to survive.  At the time I accepted it.

>I later heard the pollution had been somewhat cleared up, the tree trunks began to show lighter in color, and the same process of evolution worked in reverse, that is, moths began to have light wings again.

>Later still, when I was in my 20s or 30s I suppose, I read that this is not to be considered an example of a species of moth evolving to survive changing circumstances; there were simply two species or perhaps subspecies of moth.  As the tree trunks darkened, the [sub]species with lighter wings became rarer and the [sub]species with darker wings began to do better.  The reverse happened as the pollution was cleared up.  I accepted this explanation as more likely than evolution by mutation.

>For akatow: I don't recall anyone telling me it had happened a century before.  (If 150 years ago now, then about 100 years ago when I was in high school.  Boy, time flies.)  I always thought of it as reasonably current, say during the '40s and '50s.  Placing it toward the end of the Industrial Revolution makes more sense.

>For YA: As I said, I wrote sloppily.  The above may have made it clear, but when I said the moth species didn't adapt, I meant that a species didn't change their genes to start producing darker wings, but that one species of moth started to do better than the other under the changing circumstances.

>Now that I'm required to think about this whole thing, I realize that I don't really know what was happening.  Were the observers at the time mistaking the light- and dark-winged moths for members of the same species?  Were they the same species?  depression at not being able to affect color change by force of will, I missed it, and it's moot to my point.  

They were sub-species of moths such as the peppered moth, Biston betularia. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_melanism

Kate (who hasn't posted on this forum for ages!)


Message 5eaf8b1300A-10102-454-30.htm, number 128100, was posted on Tue Aug 29 at 07:34:20
POB enthusiast also plays guitar......

MarkN


An interesting link if you also like Richard Thompson.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/all-the-poets-musicians-on-writing-richard-thompson/#!


Message 68cdafb5gpf-10102-772+1e.htm, number 128101, was posted on Tue Aug 29 at 12:52:05
in reply to 5eaf8b1300A-10102-454-30.htm

Re: POB enthusiast also plays guitar......

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Thanks Mark. Interesting interview. (your link doesn't work but I found it by other means). The interviewer didn't pick up on the O'Brian reference at all - that was disappointing. 'Dickens, Austen, O'Brian, Hughes.' Good company our man keeps.
Interesting also (to me) that The Band's 'Big Pink' had such an impact. It's hard to see how, exactly, but I'll take Thompson's word for it.

On Tue Aug 29, MarkN wrote
--------------------------
>An interesting link if you also like Richard Thompson.

>https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/all-the-poets-musicians-on-writing-richard-thompson/#!


Message 56003e26cb5-10103-769-07.htm, number 128102, was posted on Wed Aug 30 at 12:49:02
So, about sail training ships...

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


Do the officers still shout orders from the quarterdeck as in the Olden Days? Are they still relayed through a couple of different people? Are bosun's pipes still used?

I would expect that they might make a concession to modern technology and use bullhorns/loudhailers instead of just hollering.


Message 50e5a913p13-10103-778+1d.htm, number 128103, was posted on Wed Aug 30 at 12:58:21
in reply to 68cdafb5gpf-10102-772+1e.htm

To make the link work . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Aug 29, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>>https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/all-the-poets-musicians-on-writing-richard-thompson/#!

. . just delete the ’s’ in ‘https’:

lareviewofbooks.org/article/all-the-poets-musicians-on-writing-richard-thompson/#!


Message 50e5a913p13-10103-790+19.htm, number 128104, was posted on Wed Aug 30 at 13:10:07
in reply to 5b7ddbde00A-10102-17+1a.htm

Working link

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Aug 29, Kate Bunting wrote
---------------------------------
>On Sat Aug 26, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>I was thinking that everyone had the same experience in school that I did, so I encapsulated briefly and sloppily, expecting everyone to know what I meant.  Sorry, my bad.  Here's the same thing written out in longhand:

>>When I was in high school, say in the late '60s, I was taught that pollution in London had gotten so bad that soot and other particulates had darkened the tree trunks, and that moths with light-colored wings were more visible to their predators.  But after a while, moths with darker wings started showing up, more difficult to see.  It's been a lot of years but as I recall this was explained to me, or at least I understood it at the time, as a minor example of evolution in action: The light-winged moths were dying off, but as a species evolved darker wings to survive.  At the time I accepted it.

>>I later heard the pollution had been somewhat cleared up, the tree trunks began to show lighter in color, and the same process of evolution worked in reverse, that is, moths began to have light wings again.

>>Later still, when I was in my 20s or 30s I suppose, I read that this is not to be considered an example of a species of moth evolving to survive changing circumstances; there were simply two species or perhaps subspecies of moth.  As the tree trunks darkened, the [sub]species with lighter wings became rarer and the [sub]species with darker wings began to do better.  The reverse happened as the pollution was cleared up.  I accepted this explanation as more likely than evolution by mutation.

>>For akatow: I don't recall anyone telling me it had happened a century before.  (If 150 years ago now, then about 100 years ago when I was in high school.  Boy, time flies.)  I always thought of it as reasonably current, say during the '40s and '50s.  Placing it toward the end of the Industrial Revolution makes more sense.

>>For YA: As I said, I wrote sloppily.  The above may have made it clear, but when I said the moth species didn't adapt, I meant that a species didn't change their genes to start producing darker wings, but that one species of moth started to do better than the other under the changing circumstances.

>>Now that I'm required to think about this whole thing, I realize that I don't really know what was happening.  Were the observers at the time mistaking the light- and dark-winged moths for members of the same species?  Were they the same species?  depression at not being able to affect color change by force of will, I missed it, and it's moot to my point.  

>They were sub-species of moths such as the peppered moth, Biston betularia. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_melanism

>Kate (who hasn't posted on this forum for ages!)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_melanism

Welcome back! The wiki page you link to doesn’t mention subspecies; instead I found:

. . A taxonomist decides whether to recognize a subspecies or not. A common way to decide is that organisms belonging to different subspecies of the same species are capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring, but they do not usually interbreed in nature due to geographic isolation, sexual selection, or other factors. The differences between subspecies are usually less distinct than the differences between species . .

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies

which doesn’t mention the moths. So they may or may not be named as sub-species.


Message 50e5a913p13-10103-849+19.htm, number 128105, was posted on Wed Aug 30 at 14:08:50
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10103-790+19.htm

Peppered moths on wikipedia

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Aug 30, Chrístõ wrote
——————————————
>' . . A taxonomist decides whether to recognize a subspecies or not. A common way to decide is that organisms belonging to different subspecies of the same species are capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring, but they do not usually interbreed in nature due to geographic isolation, sexual selection, or other factors. The differences between subspecies are usually less distinct than the differences between species . . '

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies
…………………………..
The wikipage en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth has more: the different moth colours are called ‘forms’ and distinguished from sub-species by ‘f.’, e.g. Biston betularia f. carbonaria

‘ . . individuals of each morph interbreed and produce fertile offspring with individuals of all other morphs; hence there is only one peppered moth species.

By contrast, different subspecies of the same species can theoretically interbreed with one another and will produce fully fertile and healthy offspring but in practice do not, as they live in different regions or reproduce in different seasons. Full-fledged species are either unable to produce fertile and healthy offspring, or do not recognize each other's courtship signals, or both . .

European breeding experiments have shown that in Biston betularia betularia, the allele for melanism producing morpha carbonaria is controlled by a single locus. The melanic allele is dominant to the non-melanic allele . . ‘

These pages are not linked and were evidently created independently.


Message 4747f4808HW-10104-918-30.htm, number 128106, was posted on Thu Aug 31 at 15:18:37
No title!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Years ago, when I was reading a lot of spy novels...  Ok, decades ago.  Decades ago I tried John le Carré and for some reason couldn't get into him.  I don't know why; there were other authors I liked very much: Frederick Forsyth, Alistair MacLean (please don't sneer), half a dozen others.  So every so often I think I should give le Carré another chance, now that I'm older.

But in the below article I read:

Early in his writing, le Carré introduced the subversive hypothesis that the spies of East and West were two sides of the same tarnished coin, each as bad as the other. It was a stunning idea, espionage painted not in black and white but in shades of gray. With the fall of the Berlin Wall, the author lost the scaffolding for his fiction. His later books are angrier, more polemical, their worldview darker, reflecting the chaotic morality of the post-Soviet era and often presenting the United States — with its exceptionalism, its flouting of international norms, as he sees it — as the villain in the post-Cold War era.

Hm, maybe I don't need to give him a retry after all.  Helen McInnes contradicted the notion, fashionable back then, than the Soviets and the West were morally equivalent, arguing vociferously at times that the attempt to enslave other countries is not morally equivalent to resisting that attempt.  Her writing wasn't quite up to what I'm told of le Carré's standards—though it's good enough to enjoy (try Horizon for example)—but I believe her outlook is closer to the truth than what's attributed to le Carré here.



You should consider starting a new thread

On Sat Aug 26, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/books/review/john-le-carre-b


Message 4747f4808HW-10104-918+1e.htm, number 128106, was edited on Thu Aug 31 at 15:19:40
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-10104-918-30.htm

Peter Guillam, continued

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Years ago, when I was reading a lot of spy novels...  Ok, decades ago.  Decades ago I tried John le Carré and for some reason couldn't get into him.  I don't know why; there were other authors I liked very much: Frederick Forsyth, Alistair MacLean (please don't sneer), half a dozen others.  So every so often I think I should give le Carré another chance, now that I'm older.

But in the below article I read:

Early in his writing, le Carré introduced the subversive hypothesis that the spies of East and West were two sides of the same tarnished coin, each as bad as the other. It was a stunning idea, espionage painted not in black and white but in shades of gray. With the fall of the Berlin Wall, the author lost the scaffolding for his fiction. His later books are angrier, more polemical, their worldview darker, reflecting the chaotic morality of the post-Soviet era and often presenting the United States — with its exceptionalism, its flouting of international norms, as he sees it — as the villain in the post-Cold War era.

Hm, maybe I don't need to give him a retry after all.  Helen McInnes contradicted the notion, fashionable back then, than the Soviets and the West were morally equivalent, arguing vociferously at times that the attempt to enslave other countries is not morally equivalent to resisting that attempt.  Her writing wasn't quite up to what I'm told of le Carré's standards—though it's good enough to enjoy (try Horizon for example)—but I believe her outlook is closer to the truth than what's attributed to le Carré here.



You should consider starting a new thread

On Sat Aug 26, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/books/review/john-le-carre-b

[ This message was edited on Thu Aug 31 by the author ]


Message 6c1413d300A-10104-1022+06.htm, number 128107, was posted on Thu Aug 31 at 17:02:19
in reply to 56003e26cb5-10103-769-07.htm

Re: So, about sail training ships...

Don Seltzer


On Wed Aug 30, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>Do the officers still shout orders from the quarterdeck as in the Olden Days? Are they still relayed through a couple of different people? Are bosun's pipes still used?

>I would expect that they might make a concession to modern technology and use bullhorns/loudhailers instead of just hollering.

Jack and his officers regularly used speaking trumpets, made of brass I suspect.

Of the tall ships that I have been aboard, all but one had officers shouting orders from the quarterdeck, occasionally repeated by someone midships.  On the Constitution, a PA system was sometimes used.


Message ad2078cfhi9-10106-1299-07.htm, number 128108, was posted on Sat Sep 2 at 21:38:57
Reminder for Toronto Master and Commander weekend

Adam Quinan
hms.bee@gmail.com


A Weekend in Nelson's Navy

September 22-24

At Historic Montgomery's Inn, National Historic Site Fort York, the elegant Georgian-era Campbell House Museum and aboard tall ship Playfair

This year's immersive 1812 naval event begins three weeks from today, and meals must be arranged two weeks from today (September 15). It's shaping up to be the best Master and Commander yet, with new speakers, new merchants and workshops along with favourite elements of past years. Students, seniors, veterans, re-enactors, members of JASNA and historical societies: you're in luck (have a look at the registration form).

The year is 1800. Standing on the deck of a British warship, you hear the wind snapping her sails and the creak of her wooden hull. Then -- a strange ship is sighted on the horizon, and you're off in hot pursuit!

This event offers a unique immersive experience: you will spend the weekend in the world of the Royal Navy of 200 years ago.
You will learn about every detail of life both aboard ship and on shore, from writing with quill pens to eating the foods sailors knew, learning the dances they loved, tying knots or trying out a few cutlass moves!
Sea chanties, harbour cruise aboard a tall ship, five historical meals by firelight, dancing, demonstrations, lessons on the boatswain's pipes, antique navigational instruments, merchants, and much, much more -- full details, including the schedule, meal menus and registration form, can be found at www.JaneAustenDancing.ca . You can do pay-as-you-go or register for the full weekend. Pre-registration encouraged, and meals must be booked by Friday, September 15.(416) 578-1031.

Registration forms, detailed schedule and menus can all be found on the website's M and C page.


Message 50e5a913p13-10107-854+54.htm, number 128109, was posted on Sun Sep 3 at 14:13:39
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10101-811-90.htm

Irma is comong . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . but to whom?

5 Charts Showing Where Hurricane Irma Might Land: www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-02/here-are-5-charts-showing-where-hurricane-irma-might-land


Message 50e5a913p13-10107-855+54.htm, number 128109, was edited on Sun Sep 3 at 14:14:35
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10107-854+54.htm

Irma is coming . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . but to whom?

5 Charts Showing Where Hurricane Irma Might Land: www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-02/here-are-5-charts-showing-where-hurricane-irma-might-land

[ This message was edited on Sun Sep 3 by the author ]


Message aeda114c00A-10110-743-07.htm, number 128110, was posted on Wed Sep 6 at 12:22:40
"How Europeans Imagined Exotic Animals Centuries Ago, Based on Hearsay"

Hoyden


Why do most of them seem to be glum and disappointed?

io9.gizmodo.com/how-europeans-imagined-exotic-animals-centuries-ago-ba-1545362205


Message 6cadb2a6gpf-10110-1320+12.htm, number 128111, was posted on Wed Sep 6 at 21:59:53
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10098-663-30.htm

Re: Continuing the sea-snake conversation

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Hey, hey, no sooner do the peppered moths show up on this forum (I had never heard of 'em), than I encounter them in a book recommended (or at least mentioned) by our own Max. Amor Towles has his 'A Gentleman in Moscow' using those moths to make a point.


On Fri Aug 25, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>The article says in part "It’s sort of like the moths in Europe that swapped speckled for black wings during the Industrial Revolution, evading hungry birds by blending in with coal dust."  I read that without a qualm the first time through, forgetting until just now that the famous moths didn't adapt.  We were told at the time that they did, but I gather the later conclusion is that light-winged moths started to die off, and dark-winged moths correspondingly prospered.

>I have a hard time taking the Flat-Earth society seriously, by the way.  I got the impression somewhere that it's sort of an insider joke, that they don't really believe the earth is flat.  I shouldn't underestimate the stupidity potential—maybe a few do—but not the membership as a whole, surely.

>On Sat Aug 19, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>First we have the swelling ranks of the 'Flat Earth Society', now we have a 'Science' writer for the NYT talking about moths, pigeons and sea snakes 'adapting' (quickly, no less) to pollution!!!!

>>LaMarck would be proud.

>>On Sat Aug 19, Hoyden wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>www.nytimes


Message 6cadb2a6gpf-10110-1322+03.htm, number 128112, was posted on Wed Sep 6 at 22:02:21
in reply to 46d30bbe00A-10085-42+1c.htm

Re^3: Gentleman in Moscow

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Max, having now read  most of A Gentleman in Moscow, I can't credit  your story at all. It's almost impossible to believe, given, as you say, the constant references to Bolsheviks, not to mention frequent mention of the years, starting I believe in 1922.

On Sat Aug 12, Max wrote
------------------------
>I haven't read  'Lincoln in the Bardo'. No plan not to. Just too much going on to read as much as I like.
>My astonishment at the dinner party is that GIM as about nothing if it isn't about the decade after decade changes in society post 1922. Words like "Bolsheviks" are on every page. There are cars and radios.
>I'm just astonished that educated people can miss by a full century.
>
>
>
>
>n Fri Aug 11, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>Thanks for the heads-up, Max. I will be sure now not to make that mistake if I ever get my hands on A Gentleman in Moscow, which - due to my reliance on regional library system inventory - may not be for a long time. I checked last night and found every copy of Towle in the system is out and with a waiting list. I had no idea. Same for George Saunders, I notice. Has anyone here read 'Lincoln in the Bardo?'

>>On Thu Aug 10, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>Well, this was depressing. I went to a dinner party of seemingly bright, educated people. Not young.
>>>They were reading A Gentleman in Moscow with great enjoyment.
>>>So far, so good.
>>>While discussing the book however it became apparent that they thought it took place during, or right after, the Napoleonic era.

>>>I didn't know where to start.


Message 4747f4808HW-10111-674+06.htm, number 128113, was posted on Thu Sep 7 at 11:14:07
in reply to aeda114c00A-10110-743-07.htm

Fascinating!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I remember in high school we had an exercise: One person would look at a simple drawing of various geometrical shapes, and would attempt to describe it orally in such a way that another student could reproduce the drawing.  No group succeeded in coming close, and it was borne in on me that a picture really is worth much more than a thousand words.  

(I've since formed the notion that just as a civilized human should be able to write clearly, it would be about equally useful to be able to sketch accurately.  I haven't yet become civilized by that measure.)

That was just a handful of triangles, circles and other polyhedrons tossed into a drawing together, not animals.  I can see the attempts made here, and am fascinated by the various ways in which the illustrators were "close yet so very far".  Thanks, Hoyden, for this look.

On Wed Sep 6, Hoyden wrote
--------------------------
>Why do most of them seem to be glum and disappointed?

>io9.gizmodo.com/how-europeans-imagined-exotic-animals-centuries-ago-ba-1545362205


Message 50e5a913p13-10112-436+4f.htm, number 128114, was posted on Fri Sep 8 at 07:16:29
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10101-811-90.htm

Irma, Jose and Katie . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. .  make an attractive display on the EarthWindMap: https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-67.32,21.47,1391/loc=-73.886,22.027

Click on the image to move inwards. The display gives the estimated wind speed at the cursor.

‘A visualization of global weather conditions forecast by supercomputers, updated every three hours  . . atmospheric pressure corresponds roughly to altitude . .several pressure layers are meteorologically interesting . . they show data assuming the earth is completely smooth.’

Note: 1 hectopascal (hPa) = 1 millibar (mb) . .1000 hPa ~100 m, near sea level conditions.


Message 50e5a913p13-10112-440+4f.htm, number 128114, was edited on Fri Sep 8 at 07:19:52
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10112-436+4f.htm

Irma, Jose and Katie . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. .  make an attractive display on the EarthWindMap: tinyurl.com/ychyhdjx

Click on the image to move inwards. The display gives the estimated wind speed at the cursor.

‘A visualization of global weather conditions forecast by supercomputers, updated every three hours  . . atmospheric pressure corresponds roughly to altitude . .several pressure layers are meteorologically interesting . . they show data assuming the earth is completely smooth.’

Note: 1 hectopascal (hPa) = 1 millibar (mb) . .1000 hPa ~100 m, near sea level conditions.

[ This message was edited on Fri Sep 8 by the author ]


Message 44654cc700A-10112-589+4f.htm, number 128115, was posted on Fri Sep 8 at 09:49:08
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10112-440+4f.htm

Re: Irma, Jose and Katie . .

A-Polly


Oh wow, it's quite lovely!  I've been using the Ventusky site, which is nice because you can click to choose weather features such as wind speed, precipitation, temperature, and so on.  Viewing the wind speed and wave height maps at the world scale puts me in awe of sailors in any era venturing into the Roaring Forties!
www.ventusky.com/

However, the Ventusky map is flat, and I really like the way the EarthWindMap is shown on a globe.  Both sites are mesmerizing!

Thanks for the link, Chrístõ.  I'm in Florida (northern part), and we're all watching the approaching hurricane.



On Fri Sep 8, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>. .  make an attractive display on the EarthWindMap: tinyurl.com/ychyhdjx

>Click on the image to move inwards. The display gives the estimated wind speed at the cursor.

>‘A visualization of global weather conditions forecast by supercomputers, updated every three hours  . . atmospheric pressure corresponds roughly to altitude . .several pressure layers are meteorologically interesting . . they show data assuming the earth is completely smooth.’

>Note: 1 hectopascal (hPa) = 1 millibar (mb) . .1000 hPa ~100 m, near sea level conditions.

>


Message 50e5a913p13-10112-781+4f.htm, number 128116, was posted on Fri Sep 8 at 13:00:41
in reply to 44654cc700A-10112-589+4f.htm

Earth = control panel

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Sep 8, A-Polly wrote
---------------------------
>Thanks for the link, Chrístõ.  I'm in Florida (northern part), and we're all watching the approaching hurricane.

Happy to be of service, ma’am . . Good luck with yr close encounter with Irma. Don’t let the wind blow up yr petticoats - you know how a flash of ankle inflames us poor mariners!

You can access a control panel to change the display via ’earth’ which opens and closes it. It is not as obvious as it needs to be.


Message aeda807b00A-10112-981-07.htm, number 128117, was posted on Fri Sep 8 at 16:21:11
Catalonia in the news - Oct 1

Hoyden


mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/08/world/europe/spain-catalonia-independence.html?action=click&module=Latest&pgtype=Homepage

Message 6ca8e32e8YV-10112-1234+01.htm, number 128118, was posted on Fri Sep 8 at 20:34:25
in reply to ad2078cfhi9-10106-1299-07.htm

Re: Reminder for Toronto Master and Commander weekend

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com






On Sat Sep 2, Adam Quinan wrote
-------------------------------
>A Weekend in Nelson's Navy

>September 22-24

>At Historic Montgomery's Inn, National Historic Site Fort York, the elegant Georgian-era Campbell House Museum and aboard tall ship Playfair

>This year's immersive 1812 naval event begins three weeks from today, and meals must be arranged two weeks from today (September 15). It's shaping up to be the best Master and Commander yet, with new speakers, new merchants and workshops along with favourite elements of past years. Students, seniors, veterans, re-enactors, members of JASNA and historical societies: you're in luck (have a look at the registration form).

>The year is 1800. Standing on the deck of a British warship, you hear the wind snapping her sails and the creak of her wooden hull. Then -- a strange ship is sighted on the horizon, and you're off in hot pursuit!

>This event offers a unique immersive experience: you will spend the weekend in the world of the Royal Navy of 200 years ago.
>You will learn about every detail of life both aboard ship and on shore, from writing with quill pens to eating the foods sailors knew, learning the dances they loved, tying knots or trying out a few cutlass moves!
>Sea chanties, harbour cruise aboard a tall ship, five historical meals by firelight, dancing, demonstrations, lessons on the boatswain's pipes, antique navigational instruments, merchants, and much, much more -- full details, including the schedule, meal menus and registration form, can be found at www.JaneAustenDancing.ca . You can do pay-as-you-go or register for the full weekend. Pre-registration encouraged, and meals must be booked by Friday, September 15.(416) 578-1031.

>Registration forms, detailed schedule and menus can all be found on the website's M and C page.
>


Message 3e2f727600A-10113-560-07.htm, number 128119, was posted on Sat Sep 9 at 09:19:49
"Bats fail to detect smooth, vertical surfaces when they are in a rush"

Hoyden


The danger of walls, buildings, etc.

phys.org/news/2017-09-smooth-vertical-surfaces.html


Message 50e5a913p13-10113-811+4e.htm, number 128120, was posted on Sat Sep 9 at 13:30:36
in reply to 44654cc700A-10112-589+4f.htm

What a hurricane sounds like

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Sep 8, A-Polly wrote
---------------------------
 I'm in Florida (northern part), and we're all watching the approaching hurricane.
……….

Live footage as Hurricane Irma destroys Maho Beach Cam in St Maarten 9/6/2017:
www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=dA5qYrboTUE

Hat-tip: twistedsifter.com/videos/hurricane-irma-destroys-maho-beach-st-maarten/


Message 4747f4808HW-10104-918+1e.htm, number 128120, was edited on Tue Sep 12 at 10:43:12
Peter Guillam, continued

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Years ago, when I was reading a lot of spy novels...  Ok, decades ago.  Decades ago I tried John le Carré and for some reason couldn't get into him.  I don't know why; there were other authors I liked very much: Frederick Forsyth, Alistair MacLean (please don't sneer), Robert Moss, half a dozen others.  So every so often I think I should give le Carré another chance, now that I'm older.

But in the below article I read:

Early in his writing, le Carré introduced the subversive hypothesis that the spies of East and West were two sides of the same tarnished coin, each as bad as the other. It was a stunning idea, espionage painted not in black and white but in shades of gray. With the fall of the Berlin Wall, the author lost the scaffolding for his fiction. His later books are angrier, more polemical, their worldview darker, reflecting the chaotic morality of the post-Soviet era and often presenting the United States — with its exceptionalism, its flouting of international norms, as he sees it — as the villain in the post-Cold War era.

Hm, maybe I don't need to give him a retry after all.  Helen McInnes contradicted the notion, fashionable back then, that the Soviets and the West were morally equivalent, arguing vociferously at times that the attempt to enslave other countries is not morally equivalent to resisting that attempt.  Her writing wasn't quite up to what is claimed for le Carré's standards—though it's good enough to enjoy (try Horizon for example)—but I believe her outlook is closer to the truth than what's attributed to le Carré here.



You should consider starting a new thread

On Sat Aug 26, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/books/review/john-le-carre-b

[ This message was edited on Tue Sep 12 by the author ]


Message ad2078cfhi9-10116-1056-30.htm, number 128121, was posted on Tue Sep 12 at 17:36:20
Video for upcoming Master & Commander weekend in Toronto

Adam Quinan
hms.bee@gmail.com


This is the last week for anyone wanting to attend to register for the meals.

This is a short promo video filmed partially aboard Playfair which will be taking a short cruise on Lake Ontario as part of the weekend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7myMWBBzPPA


Message 46d1c51000A-10119-765-30.htm, number 128122, was posted on Fri Sep 15 at 12:45:25
Ignorance

Max


Pretty much everyday I find that something I'm sure of is dead wrong.
Today I realized that out of proportion school maps gave me a screwed up idea of scale, size and distance in the world.

The U.S. and Europe are smaller than I thought. There is a lot more water especially in the southern hemisphere.
A real eye opener is flipping north and south. Putting south at the maps top.


Message 6242bb9f00A-10119-899+1e.htm, number 128123, was posted on Fri Sep 15 at 14:58:44
in reply to 46d1c51000A-10119-765-30.htm

Re: Ignorance

YA


It'll freak you out if you let it.
youtube.com/watch?v=vVX-PrBRtTY
Or just get a globe.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_map_projections
On Fri Sep 15, Max wrote
------------------------
>Pretty much everyday I find that something I'm sure of is dead wrong.
>Today I realized that out of proportion school maps gave me a screwed up idea of scale, size and distance in the world.

>The U.S. and Europe are smaller than I thought. There is a lot more water especially in the southern hemisphere.
>A real eye opener is flipping north and south. Putting south at the maps top.


Message 50e5a913p13-10120-435+1d.htm, number 128124, was posted on Sat Sep 16 at 07:14:56
in reply to 46d1c51000A-10119-765-30.htm

Have a look at an orthographic projection

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Sep 15, Max wrote
------------------------
>Pretty much everyday I find that something I'm sure of is dead wrong.
>Today I realized that out of proportion school maps gave me a screwed up idea of scale, size and distance in the world.

>The U.S. and Europe are smaller than I thought. There is a lot more water especially in the southern hemisphere.
>A real eye opener is flipping north and south. Putting south at the maps top.
…..
Here's the EarthWindMap set to an orthographic* projection:
http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-89.92,89.01,336/loc=105.000,-50.356
Click
Click 'earth' to open the control panel; click on the image to zoom in; don't know how to zoom out.

* '1. Of a projection used in maps, elevations, etc.: depicted as if seen from an infinite distance, so that the projecting rays are parallel.
1669   Philos. Trans. 1668 (Royal Soc.) 3 872   The Orthographick Projection, by Perpendiculars falling from the respective Points of the Circles of the Spheare, on the Projecting Plain . . ' (OED)


Message 50e5a913p13-10120-441+1d.htm, number 128125, was posted on Sat Sep 16 at 07:21:14
in reply to 46d1c51000A-10119-765-30.htm

Try the viw from space

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Sep 15, Max wrote
------------------------
>Pretty much everyday I find that something I'm sure of is dead wrong.
>Today I realized that out of proportion school maps gave me a screwed up idea of scale, size and distance in the world.

>The U.S. and Europe are smaller than I thought. There is a lot more water especially in the southern hemisphere.
>A real eye opener is flipping north and south. Putting south at the maps top.
………….
Here's the EarthWindMap set to an orthographic* projection.
tinyurl.com/y7pxu449
Click 'earth' to open the control panel; click on the image to rotate and zoom in; I don't know how to zoom out.

* '1. Of a projection used in maps, elevations, etc.: depicted as if seen from an infinite distance, so that the projecting rays are parallel.
1669   Philos. Trans. 1668 (Royal Soc.) 3 872   The Orthographick Projection, by Perpendiculars falling from the respective Points of the Circles of the Spheare, on the Projecting Plain . . ' (OED)


Message 50e5a913p13-10120-442+1d.htm, number 128125, was edited on Sat Sep 16 at 07:21:42
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10120-441+1d.htm

Try the view from space

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri Sep 15, Max wrote
------------------------
>Pretty much everyday I find that something I'm sure of is dead wrong.
>Today I realized that out of proportion school maps gave me a screwed up idea of scale, size and distance in the world.

>The U.S. and Europe are smaller than I thought. There is a lot more water especially in the southern hemisphere.
>A real eye opener is flipping north and south. Putting south at the maps top.
………….
Here's the EarthWindMap set to an orthographic* projection.
tinyurl.com/y7pxu449
Click 'earth' to open the control panel; click on the image to rotate and zoom in; I don't know how to zoom out.

* '1. Of a projection used in maps, elevations, etc.: depicted as if seen from an infinite distance, so that the projecting rays are parallel.
1669   Philos. Trans. 1668 (Royal Soc.) 3 872   The Orthographick Projection, by Perpendiculars falling from the respective Points of the Circles of the Spheare, on the Projecting Plain . . ' (OED)

[ This message was edited on Sat Sep 16 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10120-810-90.htm, number 128126, was posted on Sat Sep 16 at 13:29:34
“There’s not a minute to be lost”

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The Clipper Round the World Race illustrates this favourite maxim of Jack’s very well. The identical boats started together 27 days ago from Liverpool and and are passing Rio today en route for Buenos Aires 1000 nm ahead, the end of the first leg.
clipperroundtheworld.com/race/standings
Nine boats are bunched together within 180 nm. The leader Sanya Serenity is just 32 miles ahead of #2 Unicef - 2.5 hours - equivalent to gaining 5.5 minutes a day for 27 days.

All the crews - amateurs who signed up for the cruise of a lifetime - must be tolerably tired by now!


Message 578acb5a00A-10121-13-07.htm, number 128127, was posted on Sun Sep 17 at 00:13:15
What doth Hurricane Irma reveal? Canoe with square head nails.

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/storyline/hurricane-irma/after-irma-mystery-where-did-washed-ashore-canoe-florida-come-n802001

Message 46d1c51000A-10121-600+07.htm, number 128128, was posted on Sun Sep 17 at 10:00:04
in reply to 578acb5a00A-10121-13-07.htm

Re: What doth Hurricane Irma reveal? Canoe with square head nails.

Max


the canoe is over 50 years old, which makes it historic in age...

Ain't we all?


Message 6ca8e32e8YV-10121-922+1c.htm, number 128129, was posted on Sun Sep 17 at 15:21:47
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10120-442+1d.htm

Terrible maps

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


www.facebook.com/TerribleMaps/photos/a.1702342333343482.1073741828.1702341603343555/2032846193626426/?type=3

www.facebook.com/TerribleMaps/photos/a.1702342333343482.1073741828.1702341603343555/2000183060226073/?type=3


Message 48c466b500A-10121-1381+1c.htm, number 128130, was posted on Sun Sep 17 at 23:01:30
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10120-442+1d.htm

Re: Try the view from space

A-Polly


This one I found especially eye-opening:
www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/cartography




On Sat Sep 16, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Fri Sep 15, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Pretty much everyday I find that something I'm sure of is dead wrong.
>>Today I realized that out of proportion school maps gave me a screwed up idea of scale, size and distance in the world.

>>The U.S. and Europe are smaller than I thought. There is a lot more water especially in the southern hemisphere.
>>A real eye opener is flipping north and south. Putting south at the maps top.
>………….
>Here's the EarthWindMap set to an orthographic* projection.
>tinyurl.com/y7pxu449
>Click 'earth' to open the control panel; click on the image to rotate and zoom in; I don't know how to zoom out.

>* '1. Of a projection used in maps, elevations, etc.: depicted as if seen from an infinite distance, so that the projecting rays are parallel.
>1669   Philos. Trans. 1668 (Royal Soc.) 3 872   The Orthographick Projection, by Perpendiculars falling from the respective Points of the Circles of the Spheare, on the Projecting Plain . . ' (OED)


Message 47e54da900A-10122-425-07.htm, number 128131, was posted on Mon Sep 18 at 07:05:10
Triple Lunar occultations-Jack would be up all night in his little observatory.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2017/09/17/science/occultation-moon-mars-venus-mercury.html?emc=edit_nn_20170918&nl=morning-briefing&nl

Message 465fd3f38YV-10122-1277-90.htm, number 128132, was posted on Mon Sep 18 at 21:17:25
And the winners are.....

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


The 2017 Ig Nobel Prize Winners


The 2017 Ig Nobel Prizes were awarded on Thursday night, September 14, 2017 at the 27th First Annual Ig Nobel Prize Ceremony, at Harvard's Sanders Theatre. The ceremony was webcast .

PHYSICS PRIZE [FRANCE, SINGAPORE, USA] — Marc-Antoine Fardin, for using fluid dynamics to probe the question "Can a Cat Be Both a Solid and a Liquid?"

REFERENCE: "On the Rheology of Cats," Marc-Antoine Fardin, Rheology Bulletin, vol. 83, 2, July 2014, pp. 16-17 and 30.

WHO ATTENDED THE CEREMONY: Marc-Antoine Fardin


PEACE PRIZE [SWITZERLAND, CANADA, THE NETHERLANDS, USA] — Milo Puhan, Alex Suarez, Christian Lo Cascio, Alfred Zahn, Markus Heitz, and Otto Braendli, for demonstrating that regular playing of a didgeridoo is an effective treatment for obstructive sleep apnoea and snoring.

REFERENCE: "Didgeridoo Playing as Alternative Treatment for Obstructive Sleep Apnoea Syndrome: Randomised Controlled Trial," Milo A. Puhan, Alex Suarez, Christian Lo Cascio, Alfred Zahn, Markus Heitz and Otto Braendli, BMJ, vol. 332 December 2006.

WHO ATTENDED THE CEREMONY: Milo Puhan, Christian Lo Cascio, Markus Heitz, Alex Suarez. NOTE: Alex Suarez was the first patient, and was the inspiration for the study.


ECONOMICS PRIZE [AUSTRALIA, USA] — Matthew Rockloff and Nancy Greer, for their experiments to see how contact with a live crocodile affects a person's willingness to gamble.

REFERENCE: "Never Smile at a Crocodile: Betting on Electronic Gaming Machines is Intensified by Reptile-Induced Arousal," Matthew J. Rockloff and Nancy Greer, Journal of Gambling Studies, vol. 26, no. 4, December 2010, pp. 571-81.

WHO ATTENDED THE CEREMONY: Matthew Rockloff and Nancy Greer


ANATOMY PRIZE [UK] — James Heathcote, for his medical research study "Why Do Old Men Have Big Ears?"

REFERENCE: "Why Do Old Men Have Big Ears?" James A. Heathcote, British Medical Journal, vol. 311, 1995, p. 1668.

WHO ATTENDED THE CEREMONY: James Heathcote


BIOLOGY PRIZE [JAPAN, BRAZIL, SWITZERLAND] — Kazunori Yoshizawa, Rodrigo Ferreira, Yoshitaka Kamimura, and Charles Lienhard, for their discovery of a female penis, and a male vagina, in a cave insect.

REFERENCE: "Female Penis, Male Vagina and Their Correlated Evolution in a Cave Insect," Kazunori Yoshizawa, Rodrigo L. Ferreira, Yoshitaka Kamimura, Charles Lienhard, Current Biology, vol. 24, no. 9, 2014, pp. 1006-1010.

WHO ATTENDED THE CEREMONY: They delivered a short video acceptance speech, filmed in a cave.


FLUID DYNAMICS PRIZE [SOUTH KOREA, USA] — Jiwon Han, for studying the dynamics of liquid-sloshing, to learn what happens when a person walks backwards while carrying a cup of coffee. REFERENCE: "A Study on the Coffee Spilling Phenomena in the Low Impulse Regime," Jiwon Han, Achievements in the Life Sciences, vol. 10, no. 1, 2016, pp. 87-101.

WHO ATTENDED THE CEREMONY: Jiwon ("Jesse") Han

NOTE: Jiwon Han was a high school student when he wrote the paper, at Korean Minjok Leadership Academy, Gangwon-do, Republic of Korea.


NUTRITION PRIZE [BRAZIL, CANADA, SPAIN] — Fernanda Ito, Enrico Bernard, and Rodrigo Torres, for the first scientific report of human blood in the diet of the hairy-legged vampire bat

REFERENCE: "What is for Dinner? First Report of Human Blood in the Diet of the Hairy-Legged Vampire Bat Diphylla ecaudata," Fernanda Ito, Enrico Bernard, and Rodrigo A. Torres, Acta Chiropterologica, vol. 18, no. 2, December 2016, pp. 509-515.

WHO ATTENDED THE CEREMONY: The winners delivered their acceptance speech via recorded video.


MEDICINE PRIZE [FRANCE, UK] — Jean-Pierre Royet, David Meunier, Nicolas Torquet, Anne-Marie Mouly and Tao Jiang, for using advanced brain-scanning technology to measure the extent to which some people are disgusted by cheese.

REFERENCE: "The Neural Bases of Disgust for Cheese: An fMRI Study," Jean-Pierre Royet, David Meunier, Nicolas Torquet, Anne-Marie Mouly and Tao Jiang, Frontiers in Human Neuroscience, vol. 10, October 2016, article 511.

WHO ATTENDED THE CEREMONY: The winners delivered their acceptance speech via recorded video.


COGNITION PRIZE [ITALY, SPAIN, UK] — Matteo Martini, Ilaria Bufalari, Maria Antonietta Stazi, and Salvatore Maria Aglioti, for demonstrating that many identical twins cannot tell themselves apart visually.

REFERENCE: "Is That Me or My Twin? Lack of Self-Face Recognition Advantage in Identical Twins," Matteo Martini, Ilaria Bufalari, Maria Antonietta Stazi, Salvatore Maria Aglioti, PLoS ONE, vol. 10, no. 4, 2015: e0120900.

WHO ATTENDED THE CEREMONY: Matteo Martini, Ilaria Bufalari


OBSTETRICS PRIZE — [SPAIN] — Marisa López-Teijón, Álex García-Faura, Alberto Prats-Galino, and Luis Pallarés Aniorte, for showing that a developing human fetus responds more strongly to music that is played electromechanically inside the mother's vagina than to music that is played electromechanically on the mother's belly.

REFERENCE: "Fetal Facial Expression in Response to Intravaginal Music Emission," Marisa López-Teijón, Álex García-Faura, and Alberto Prats-Galino, Ultrasound, November 2015, vol. 23, no. 4, pp. 216–223.

REFERENCE: "Fetal Acoustic Stimulation Device," patent ES2546919B1, granted September 29, 2015 to Luis y Pallarés Aniorte and Maria Luisa López-Teijón Pérez.

WHO ATTENDED THE CEREMONY: Marisa López-Teijón, Álex García-Faura, Alberto Prats-Galino, and Luis Pallarés Aniorte

NOTE: They also offer a product based on this research The product is named "Babypod".


Message 465fd3f38YV-10123-28-90.htm, number 128133, was posted on Tue Sep 19 at 00:27:37
So.....a pirate walks into

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com



a doctor's office to have the spots on his arm looked at.

"They're benign", the doctor said.

"No, Doc, there be eleven - I counted them before I came in..."

Happy TLAP Day!


Message 47e54da900A-10123-374-07.htm, number 128134, was posted on Tue Sep 19 at 06:14:34
The Trash Isles, Northern Pacific

Hoyden


That'll cause a stir at Customs....

qz.com/1080155/could-a-pile-of-trash-become-an-official-nation/?mc_cid=7a58ce7859&mc_eid=7bdf330d5e


Message 46d3012900A-10124-300-30.htm, number 128135, was posted on Wed Sep 20 at 05:00:24
Submarine discovered

Max


www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/german-world-war-i-submarine-discovered-intact-with-23-bodies-inside/ar-AAse3Hb?li=BBmkt5R

Message 4747f4808HW-10124-616-30.htm, number 128136, was posted on Wed Sep 20 at 10:16:41
"Clipper 'Round the World"

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


My mom just sent me this, but she sent the HTML doc rather than the link.  But I think I can find—yes, here it is.  It's from a site talking about a circumnavigation race for "non-professional sailors" (see http://clipperroundtheworld.com/race/race-and-route.  What she sent me is from this blog entry by the British team:
I will post the last in the series of the simulations you can try at home to prepare you for ocean yacht racing, then tomorrow turn you towards what I hope will be our final or penultimate blog, expressing thanks to the wonderful crew I have had the pleasure of sharing this adventure with so far. Today I will open your eyes up to the very simple task of changing a headsail.

You will need:

   Three or four friends
   An automatic carwash
   A poorly trained husky team
   An industrial-grade roller blind
   A large roll of sodden carpet
   A pulley system

Purchase three or four cycles at your local automatic car wash. We recommend Programme 5 – this will leave your teeth and nails with a waxy shine and will help with your personal hygiene issues. Before starting the programmes, make preparations by installing the roller blind just out of comfortable reach of where you intend to stand. Ensure the blind spring is unfeasibly tight so that it will snatch from your hand and recoil more times than anyone could find amusing. Install the pulley system above the roller blind. Once you are ready, let loose the dogs! Using bungee cord, tie at least two huskies to yourself and to each of your friends. Start the programme and enter the car wash. Amid the maelstrom, you should aim to stand in a loose line, reaching and grabbing for the roller blind. The dogs will pull you away in random directions and the soap will make your hands slip, but you must pull the blind down. Once fully reeled in, work to secure it before reaching for the roll of carpet. If you can lift it, the roll you chose was too small. Attach one end to the pulley and, during the drying cycle, hoist to its full height. Secure the carpet before retiring to the forecourt shop for a Costa Express and double chocolate muffin. Repeat at regular intervals throughout the day, and aim to get 95% dry before each repetition.

Wish us luck with the wind so close to the end. Where ever we come now, that first beer is going to taste really good!!

What's American for "roller blind"?

Message 50e5a913p13-10124-837+1e.htm, number 128137, was posted on Wed Sep 20 at 13:56:53
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10124-616-30.htm

Re: "Clipper 'Round the World"

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Wed Sep 20, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>My mom just sent me this, but she sent the HTML doc rather than the link.  But I think I can find—yes, here it is.  It's from a site talking about a circumnavigation race for "non-professional sailors" (see http://clipperroundtheworld.com/race/race-and-route.  
………..
This is the race I posted about on the 16th: www.wwnorton.com/cgi-bin/ceilidh.exe/pob/forum/?C350e5a913p13-10120-810-90.htm

Four days later, just 230 miles to go, the race has a clear winner and a clear loser and 8 boats bunched together vying for 2nd place: clipperroundtheworld.com/race/standings


Message 50e5a913p13-10125-412-90.htm, number 128138, was posted on Thu Sep 21 at 06:52:13
‘What was the name of Sir Francis Drake's flagship in the battle against the Spanish Armada in 1588?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today's question from Oxford Reference; visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E1982 to find the answer.

Clue: “ . . Sink me the ship, Master Gunner . . “


Message 4747f4808HW-10125-1098-30.htm, number 128139, was posted on Thu Sep 21 at 18:19:31
Rereading Alistair MacLean

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I was a little short of something to get out of the library Saturday, and ran across Night without End by Alistair MacLean.  It was the very first Alistair MacLean I ever read; my dad brought it home from a trip once, and although I loved it and for a while read all the MacLeans I could get, he bought it only because he was bored in an airport and didn't especially care for it.  But <shrug> what can I expect?  My father liked mysteries.

But now I'm looking at MacLean's photo on the back of the book, and it's a little strange because I'm pretty sure it's the same photo I looked at decades ago when I first started but...I could swear he was much older back then.

Here's the photo:


Message 4747f4808HW-10125-1098+1e.htm, number 128139, was edited on Thu Sep 21 at 18:21:00
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-10125-1098-30.htm

Rereading Alistair MacLean

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I was a little short of something to get out of the library Saturday, and ran across Night without End by Alistair MacLean.  It was the very first Alistair MacLean I ever read; my dad brought it home from a trip once, and although I loved it and for a while read all the MacLeans I could get, he bought it only because he was bored in an airport and didn't especially care for it.  But <shrug> what can I expect?  My father liked mysteries.

But now I'm looking at MacLean's photo on the back of the book, and it's a little strange because I'm pretty sure it's the same photo I looked at decades ago when I first started but...I could swear he was much older back then.  This kid's barely an adult.

Here's the photo:

[ This message was edited on Thu Sep 21 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-10125-1106+5a.htm, number 128140, was posted on Thu Sep 21 at 18:26:23
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10125-412-90.htm

Must have been heavily damaged

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Says here:
....a 34-gun ship of 441 tons, launched at Deptford in 1577....fought her last fight, which lasted for fifteen hours, against overwhelming odds. When there was no further hope of fighting her, Grenville ordered her to be sunk. However, his surviving officers would not agree to this and terms of surrender were made with the Spaniards on the understanding that the lives and liberties of the ship's company should be spared....Five days after the battle the [vessel] foundered in a storm, taking with her 200 Spaniards who had been put on board.

Two hundred men as a prize crew for a 34-gun ship?  Seems to me she must have been badly hurt to need that many; was she close to sinking, then?

On Thu Sep 21, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today's question from Oxford Reference; visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E1982 to find the answer.

>Clue: “ . . Sink me the ship, Master Gunner . . “


Message 4747f4808HW-10125-1119+05.htm, number 128141, was posted on Thu Sep 21 at 18:38:49
in reply to 47e54da900A-10123-374-07.htm

"Cumulatively"?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


The article finishes "....there’s an area cumulatively the size of France made up entirely of waste plastic in the sea".  Sure, that's impressive, but I've come to the conclusion that any time someone has to say "essentially" or "in effect" or any of several other adverbs, it means "not really".

So what does "cumulatively" mean in this case?  How big is it really?  Is it the size that France would be if France had an inland sea the size of Romania?  If so, I'm much less impressed.

On Tue Sep 19, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>That'll cause a stir at Customs....

>qz.com/1080155/could-a-pile-of-trash-become-an-official-nation/?mc_cid=7a58ce7859&mc_eid=7bdf330d5e


Message 31bb881400A-10125-1119+5a.htm, number 128142, was posted on Thu Sep 21 at 18:39:37
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10125-412-90.htm

Re: ‘What was the name of Sir Francis Drake's flagship in the battle against the Spanish Armada in 1588?’ . .

wombat


On Thu Sep 21, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today's question from Oxford Reference; visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E1982 to find the answer.

>Clue: “ . . Sink me the ship, Master Gunner . . “
>

da dumpity dum de dum not into the hands of Spain....

I have no idea. But wasn't that Don't Give up the Ship command given "At Flores in the Azores [where] Sir Richard Grenville lay"?

I have recently come across the French naval captain, Du Petit-Thouars. I met him in the memoir of a French exile in the United States*. She described him as "exceptionally witty and gay", especially at the expense of the snootier émigrés who showed contempt for the Americans but were unable to support themselves by farming and were reduced to eating robins and boiled tadpoles. But I digress. Here is Wikipedia on Du Petit-Thouars:

... commander of the Tonnant at the Battle of the Nile, where he died on August 2, 1798. During the battle, he forced HMS Majestic to break off combat, with 50 killed, including Captain Westcott, and 143 wounded. After having lost both legs and an arm, he continued to command from a bucket filled with wheat, until he died.

His last order was allegedly to nail the flag of the Tonnant to her mizzen-mast and never to surrender the ship. The Tonnant was eventually captured by the British.

* the fascinating recollections of Mme De La Tour du Pin "one of the great monuments of French history" (New Yorker).


Message 4747f4808HW-10126-634+57.htm, number 128143, was posted on Fri Sep 22 at 10:33:56
in reply to 465fd3f38YV-10123-28-90.htm

Ack! I missed it AGAIN!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'm going to have to set a reminder on my phone somehow.

(" 'Phone'!", the old guy muses wonderingly.  "We call it a 'phone'.")

On Tue Sep 19, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>>a doctor's office to have the spots on his arm looked at.

>"They're benign", the doctor said.

>"No, Doc, there be eleven - I counted them before I came in..."

>Happy TLAP Day!


Message 50e5a913p13-10126-771-90.htm, number 128144, was posted on Fri Sep 22 at 12:50:38
‘What was the name of Sir Francis Drake's flagship in the battle against the Spanish Armada in 1588?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today's question from Oxford Reference; visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E1982 to find the answer.

Clue: “ . . Sink me the ship, Master Gunner . . “


Message 50e5a913p13-10126-783+59.htm, number 128145, was posted on Fri Sep 22 at 13:03:13
in reply to 31bb881400A-10125-1119+5a.htm

‘ . . And a pinnace, like a flutter’d bird, came flying from far away . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Sep 21, wombat wrote
---------------------------
>>Clue: “ . . Sink me the ship, Master Gunner . . “
>da dumpity dum de dum not into the hands of Spain....
>I have no idea. But wasn't that Don't Give up the Ship command given "At Flores in the Azores [where] Sir Richard Grenville lay"?
………………...
Correct:

‘AT Flores, in the Azores Sir Richard Grenville lay,     
And a pinnace, like a flutter’d bird, came flying from far away;     
“Spanish ships of war at sea! we have sighted fifty-three!” . .

. . But Sir Richard cried in his English pride:     
“We have fought such a fight for a day and a night     
As may never be fought again!     
We have won great glory, my men!             
And a day less or more     
At sea or ashore,     
We die—does it matter when?     
Sink me the ship, Master Gunner—sink her, split her in twain!     
Fall into the hands of God, not into the hands of Spain!”             

And the gunner said, “Ay, ay,” but the seamen made reply:     
“We have children, we have wives,     
And the Lord hath spared our lives.     
We will make the Spaniard promise, if we yield, to let us go;     
We shall live to fight again and to strike another blow.”             
And the lion there lay dying, and they yielded to the foe . . ‘

www.bartleby.com/42/646.html


Message 50e5a913p13-10126-798+04.htm, number 128146, was posted on Fri Sep 22 at 13:18:19
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10125-1119+05.htm

Re: "Cumulatively"?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Sep 21, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>The article finishes "....there’s an area cumulatively the size of France made up entirely of waste plastic in the sea".  Sure, that's impressive, but I've come to the conclusion that any time someone has to say "essentially" or "in effect" or any of several other adverbs, it means "not really".

>So what does "cumulatively" mean in this case?  How big is it really?  Is it the size that France would be if France had an inland sea the size of Romania?  If so, I'm much less impressed.

‘cumulatively, adv. = In a cumulative* manner’ (OED)

* 2. a. Constituted by or arising from accumulation, or the accession of successive portions or particulars . .  

The area is not a single island but an archipelago of islets. Its area is the sum total of the areas of the islets. So the LadBible has chosen a clumsy way to saying that the total area equals that of France.


Message 56003e26cb5-10126-800+1d.htm, number 128147, was posted on Fri Sep 22 at 13:20:11
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10125-1098+1e.htm

Re: Rereading Alistair MacLean

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


Yep, definitely too young to be making a lot of money writing thrillers.

I remember Night Without End as one of the better ones. I also enjoyed Bear Island and Ice Station Zebra, and HMS Ulysses is in a class by itself, grim as it was. They were remarkably uneven, though. I thought Fear is the Key was tripe.


Message 56003e26cb5-10126-804+1c.htm, number 128148, was posted on Fri Sep 22 at 13:24:25
in reply to 46d3012900A-10124-300-30.htm

Re: Submarine discovered

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



They want to decide what to do with the bodies. Surely they should simply be left there as a war grave? We didn't remove the bodies from USS Arizona.

Message 4747f4808HW-10126-904+1d.htm, number 128149, was posted on Fri Sep 22 at 15:04:56
in reply to 56003e26cb5-10126-800+1d.htm

Re^2: Rereading Alistair MacLean

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I've been thinking I'll have to reread Fear is the Key; I don't remember much about the details.  On first reading I especially enjoyed The Satan Bug and The Golden Gate.  I still have good memories of the two Navaronnes.  I thought Puppet on a Chain kind of dark at first, but I liked it better some years later...or was that Caravan from Vaccarès?  River of Death (is that the one that takes place in the South-American jungle?) was when I suddenly noticed he was past his prime; I'm not sure I read anything by him after that.

The very best, IMO, is The Last Frontier, which was published in the US as The Secret Ways (but I read it twice, once under each title).  Good from beginning to end, as I recall, with memorable bits all along the way.  I especially enjoyed the final chess game (so to speak): move, counter-move, counter-counter-move—and a thoroughly dedicated cold-war adversary who didn't have to be a thoroughgoing knave.

On Fri Sep 22, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>Yep, definitely too young to be making a lot of money writing thrillers.

>I remember Night Without End as one of the better ones. I also enjoyed Bear Island and Ice Station Zebra, and HMS Ulysses is in a class by itself, grim as it was. They were remarkably uneven, though. I thought Fear is the Key was tripe.


Message 50e5a913p13-10127-458-07.htm, number 128150, was posted on Sat Sep 23 at 07:39:45
Test

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host

Message 50e5a913p13-10127-795-90.htm, number 128151, was posted on Sat Sep 23 at 13:15:07
Book Review: ‘A Legacy of Spies’ by John le Carré

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Alastair Benn writes: ‘John Le Carré’s novel ‘The Spy Who Came in from the Cold’ seemed to emerge fully formed from the Berlin sky, a spy novel of rare quality.  In his newest work, ‘A Legacy of Spies’, Le Carré revisits the novel that brought him fame.  For the hardened Le Carré fan, it is a chance to revisit much-loved characters such as George Smiley, Alec Leamas and Peter Guillam.  For the uninitiated, it is an elegant and accomplished introduction to Le Carré’s fictional universe . . ‘

reaction.life/book-review-legacy-spies-john-le-carre/
reaction.life/about/


Message 6c1413d300A-10127-1301+58.htm, number 128152, was posted on Sat Sep 23 at 21:41:12
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10125-1106+5a.htm

Re: Must have been heavily damaged

Don Seltzer


Different sources cited by Wikipedia put the loss at only 70, Spanish prize crew and British prisoners combined.

Spanish naval battles of that era were mostly boarding actions by soldiers carried on board.  Ships cannons did little damage to opposing ships, they were primarily anti-personnel weapons.  


On Thu Sep 21, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Says here:

....a 34-gun ship of 441 tons, launched at Deptford in 1577....fought her last fight, which lasted for fifteen hours, against overwhelming odds. When there was no further hope of fighting her, Grenville ordered her to be sunk. However, his surviving officers would not agree to this and terms of surrender were made with the Spaniards on the understanding that the lives and liberties of the ship's company should be spared....Five days after the battle the [vessel] foundered in a storm, taking with her 200 Spaniards who had been put on board.

>Two hundred men as a prize crew for a 34-gun ship?  Seems to me she must have been badly hurt to need that many; was she close to sinking, then?


Message d43867a100A-10128-518+57.htm, number 128153, was posted on Sun Sep 24 at 08:38:31
in reply to 31bb881400A-10125-1119+5a.htm

Re^2: ‘What was the name of Sir Francis Drake's flagship in the battle against the Spanish Armada in 1588?’ . .

Anonymous


On Thu Sep 21, wombat wrote
---------------------------
>I have recently come across the French naval captain, Du Petit-Thouars. I met him in the memoir of a French exile in the United States*. She described him as "exceptionally witty and gay", especially at the expense of the snootier émigrés who showed contempt for the Americans but were unable to support themselves by farming and were reduced to eating robins and boiled tadpoles. But I digress. Here is Wikipedia on Du Petit-Thouars:

>... commander of the Tonnant at the Battle of the Nile, where he died on August 2, 1798. During the battle, he forced HMS Majestic to break off combat, with 50 killed, including Captain Westcott, and 143 wounded. After having lost both legs and an arm, he continued to command from a bucket filled with wheat, until he died.

>His last order was allegedly to nail the flag of the Tonnant to her mizzen-mast and never to surrender the ship. The Tonnant was eventually captured by the British.

>* the fascinating recollections of Mme De La Tour du Pin "one of the great monuments of French history" (New Yorker).

Du Petit-Thouars always reminds me of the Black Knight in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail": www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

I am sure that this is maligning a very brave man, but nonetheless I can't help making the connection.


Message 47e54da900A-10128-816+59.htm, number 128154, was posted on Sun Sep 24 at 13:36:05
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10127-795-90.htm

A worthy read. I agree that George's character is a little "flat".

Hoyden


So who plays the Senior Citizens George and Peter? Do we just wait for Gary and Benedict to "grow (old) into" the roles?

Megan Markle as "Laura"?
Adam Brown as "Bunny"?




Message 50e5a913p13-10129-410-90.htm, number 128155, was posted on Mon Sep 25 at 06:50:02
‘Which adventurer and his fellow Spaniards became the first Europeans to see the Pacific Ocean on this day in 1513?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question fromOxford Reference. Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780198601753%2E013%2E0291 to find the answer.

Message 6c1413d300A-10129-693+5a.htm, number 128156, was posted on Mon Sep 25 at 11:33:08
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10129-410-90.htm

Re: ‘Which adventurer and his fellow Spaniards became the first Europeans to see the Pacific Ocean on this day in 1513?’ . .

Don Seltzer


On Mon Sep 25, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today’s question fromOxford Reference. Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780198601753%2E013%2E0291 to find the answer.
>

Unless one considers those Europeans that had previously reached the Spice Islands in the western Pacific.


Message 68cdafb5gpf-10129-1118-07.htm, number 128157, was posted on Mon Sep 25 at 18:38:31
The Long Ships

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Somebody mentioned 'The Long Ships,' by Frans Bengtsson. I'd like to thank him, or her, for the recommendation. I am enjoying it very much.
There is a curious formality to the way Bengtsson has his people talk to each other, that I find very attractive.
As it happens, I can remember saying (or at least thinking) the same thing about O'Brian on my first encounter. Very different of course, in so many ways, but in the article of 'curious formality,' at least similar.


Message 68cdafb5gpf-10129-1145+5a.htm, number 128158, was posted on Mon Sep 25 at 19:05:10
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10129-410-90.htm

Re: ‘Which adventurer and his fellow Spaniards became the first Europeans to see the Pacific Ocean on this day in 1513?’ . .

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


We were taught in school it was Balboa. Not Rocky - some other Balboa

On Mon Sep 25, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is today’s question fromOxford Reference. Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780198601753%2E013%2E0291 to find the answer.
>


Message 4747f4808HW-10131-506+05.htm, number 128159, was posted on Wed Sep 27 at 08:27:05
in reply to 68cdafb5gpf-10129-1118-07.htm

Re: The Long Ships

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


That'd be me, I guess.  I read The Long Ships as a teenager, and recently bought it on eBay so I could reread it.

Jan, it happens that it was only a few minutes ago that I got to the line I mentioned, "there is thyme in it".  I was wrong about it being near the end of the book, but they're back in the North after seven years in parts south, much of the time serving a Moorish caliph.  They're at a Jule celebration held by King Harald Bluetooth:

As the pork approached Orm and Toke, they sat quite still, with their faces turned towards the pot, watching the boy closely as he fished for the meat.  They sighed blissfully as he lifted out fine pieces of shoulder pork to put on their plates, reminding each other how long it was since they had last eaten such a dinner, and marveling that they had managed to survive so many years in a country where no pork was allowed to be eaten.  But when the blood-sausage arrived, tears came into their eyes, and they declared that they had never eaten a meal worthy of the name since they day they had sailed away with Krok.

"This is the best smell of all" said Orm in a small voice.

"There is thyme in it" said Toke huskily.

He plunged his sausage into his mouth, as far as it would go, bit off a length and slowly closed his jaws; then he swung hastily round, grabbing at the boy's coat as he attempted to move on with the trough, and said "If it be not contrary to King Harald's orders, give me at once another length of that sausage.  I have for some years past now fared indifferently among the Andalusians, where they have no food worthy of the name, and these seven Yules I have longed for blood-sausage and had none."

"My case, said Orm "is the same."

The line stuck with me, and may  be why I cook with thyme myself so often.

On Mon Sep 25, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Somebody mentioned 'The Long Ships,' by Frans Bengtsson. I'd like to thank him, or her, for the recommendation. I am enjoying it very much.

>There is a curious formality to the way Bengtsson has his people talk to each other, that I find very attractive.

>As it happens, I can remember saying (or at least thinking) the same thing about O'Brian on my first encounter. Very different of course, in so many ways, but in the article of 'curious formality,' at least similar.


Message 50e5a913p13-10131-832+58.htm, number 128160, was posted on Wed Sep 27 at 13:52:12
in reply to 68cdafb5gpf-10129-1145+5a.htm

Not ‘stout Cortez’ after all

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Sep 25, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>We were taught in school it was Balboa. Not Rocky - some other Balboa

……….

Correct! When I saw this question I thought ‘hah! every schoolboy knows it was ‘stout Cortez . . Silent, upon a peak in Darien.’:

On First Looking into Chapman's Homer

Much have I travell'd in the realms of gold,
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.

Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne;
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:

Then felt I like some watcher of the skies
When a new planet swims into his ken;
Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
He star'd at the Pacific
— and all his men
Look'd at each other with a wild surmise —
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.

John Keats, October 1816
Wrong! as wikipedia explains:

‘ . . it was the members of Vasco Núñez de Balboa's expedition who were the first Europeans to see the eastern shore of the Pacific (1513), but Keats chose to focus on Hernán Cortés; "Darien" refers to the Darién province of Panama. Keats had been reading William Robertson's History of America and apparently conflated two scenes there described: Balboa's finding of the Pacific and Cortés's first view of the Valley of Mexico (1519).

The Balboa passage: "At length the Indians assured them, that from the top of the next mountain they should discover the ocean which was the object of their wishes. When, with infinite toil, they had climbed up the greater part of the steep ascent, Balboa commanded his men to halt, and advanced alone to the summit, that he might be the first who should enjoy a spectacle which he had so long desired.

As soon as he beheld the South Sea stretching in endless prospect below him, he fell on his knees, and lifting up his hands to Heaven, returned thanks to God, who had conducted him to a discovery so beneficial to his country, and so honourable to himself. His followers, observing his transports of joy, rushed forward to join in his wonder, exultation, and gratitude" (Vol. III).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_First_Looking_into_Chapman%27s_Homer


Message 4747f4808HW-10132-1074+16.htm, number 128161, was posted on Thu Sep 28 at 17:54:33
in reply to 56003e26cb5-10126-804+1c.htm

Re^2: Submarine discovered

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Yeah, but surely that's an idiosyncratic decision.  "Idiosyncratic" may not be the right word, but "personal" isn't either; I mean that each culture would feel differently about that, and ours at least would feel differently under different circumstances.  It isn't like there's a moral absolute in this case, at least not one that I can detect.

Side note:  "We"?  Bâtard, I had the notion you're more a Brit than American.  Didn't you use to live on one of the Channel Islands?  Or am I mixing you up with someone else?

On Fri Sep 22, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>They want to decide what to do with the bodies. Surely they should simply be left there as a war grave? We didn't remove the bodies from USS Arizona.


Message 4747f4808HW-10132-1088-30.htm, number 128162, was posted on Thu Sep 28 at 18:07:56
The Trash Isles, Northern Pacific (reprised)

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Been meaning to ask this for a while, and now Hoyden's original post is on its way out so I have to start it again:  You wrote precisely, Chrístõ, but are you sure you wrote accurately?  Is France the size of the Trash Isles' land area, or only of its land-and-sea-combined area?

Wikipedia says "At 1,904,569 square kilometres (735,358 square miles), Indonesia is the world's 14th-largest country in terms of land area and world's 7th-largest country in terms of combined sea and land area."  That's the distinction I'm looking for regarding the Trash Isles.  Hoyden's article didn't say; if you think it's the sum only of the "land area", where are you getting that information?

On Fri Sep 22, Chrístõ wrote
>--------------------------------
>The area is not a single island but an archipelago of islets. Its area is the sum total of the areas of the islets. So the LadBible has chosen a clumsy way to saying that the total area equals that of France.

On Thu Sep 21, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>The article finishes "....there’s an area cumulatively the size of France made up entirely of waste plastic in the sea".  Sure, that's impressive, but I've come to the conclusion that any time someone has to say "essentially" or "in effect" or any of several other adverbs, it means "not really".

>So what does "cumulatively" mean in this case?  How big is it really?  Is it the size that France would be if France had an inland sea the size of Romania?  If so, I'm much less impressed.

On Tue Sep 19, Hoyden wrote
>--------------------------------
That'll cause a stir at Customs....

>http://qz.com/1080155/could-a-pile-of-trash-become-an-official-nation/


Message 4747f4808HW-10132-1092+53.htm, number 128163, was posted on Thu Sep 28 at 18:12:02
in reply to 6c1413d300A-10127-1301+58.htm

Re^2: Must have been heavily damaged

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


You seem to be talking about the butcher's bill; I'm asking about damage to the prize herself.  If you think the damage to the hull was light, why did she need such a large prize crew?  200 seems unnecessary to take a 34-gun ship in to harbor somewhere.  Or am I to think that the ship joined the fleet as a fighting vessel immediately? I guess that would make sense.

On Sat Sep 23, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>Different sources cited by Wikipedia put the loss at only 70, Spanish prize crew and British prisoners combined.

>Spanish naval battles of that era were mostly boarding actions by soldiers carried on board.  Ships cannons did little damage to opposing ships, they were primarily anti-personnel weapons.  

>On Thu Sep 21, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Says here:

....a 34-gun ship of 441 tons, launched at Deptford in 1577....fought her last fight, which lasted for fifteen hours, against overwhelming odds. When there was no further hope of fighting her, Grenville ordered her to be sunk. However, his surviving officers would not agree to this and terms of surrender were made with the Spaniards on the understanding that the lives and liberties of the ship's company should be spared....Five days after the battle the [vessel] foundered in a storm, taking with her 200 Spaniards who had been put on board.

>>Two hundred men as a prize crew for a 34-gun ship?  Seems to me she must have been badly hurt to need that many; was she close to sinking, then?


Message 6c1413d300A-10132-1211+53.htm, number 128164, was posted on Thu Sep 28 at 20:11:18
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10132-1092+53.htm

Re^3: Must have been heavily damaged

Don Seltzer


On Thu Sep 28, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>You seem to be talking about the butcher's bill; I'm asking about damage to the prize herself.  If you think the damage to the hull was light, why did she need such a large prize crew?  200 seems unnecessary to take a 34-gun ship in to harbor somewhere.  Or am I to think that the ship joined the fleet as a fighting vessel immediately? I guess that would make sense.


No, I was questioning whether there really were 200 Spaniards in the prize crew.  Other sources claim only 70 aboard, comprised of prize crew and British prisoners.  

My other comment about Spanish naval tactics was meant to suggest that the battle was unlikely to have caused serious damage to the British ship.  The Spanish strategy was generally to close quickly, grapple, and board with overwhelming numbers of soldiers. A lot of hand to hand combat and small arms fire, but not much ship-battering from a distance.


Message 4747f4808HW-10133-600+52.htm, number 128165, was posted on Fri Sep 29 at 10:00:08
in reply to 6c1413d300A-10132-1211+53.htm

Oh, ~that~ loss

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Oh, I thought by "the loss" you meant who was killed during the action, rather than who went down in the storm later.  Got it.

On Thu Sep 28, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>No, I was questioning whether there really were 200 Spaniards in the prize crew.  Other sources claim only 70 aboard, comprised of prize crew and British prisoners.  

>My other comment about Spanish naval tactics was meant to suggest that the battle was unlikely to have caused serious damage to the British ship.  The Spanish strategy was generally to close quickly, grapple, and board with overwhelming numbers of soldiers. A lot of hand to hand combat and small arms fire, but not much ship-battering from a distance.

>On Thu Sep 28, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>You seem to be talking about the butcher's bill; I'm asking about damage to the prize herself.  If you think the damage to the hull was light, why did she need such a large prize crew?  200 seems unnecessary to take a 34-gun ship in to harbor somewhere.  Or am I to think that the ship joined the fleet as a fighting vessel immediately? I guess that would make sense.

On Sat Sep 23, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>Different sources cited by Wikipedia put the loss at only 70, Spanish prize crew and British prisoners combined.


Message 465fd3f38YV-10133-708+15.htm, number 128166, was posted on Fri Sep 29 at 11:48:36
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10132-1074+16.htm

Re^3:Oh, good grief...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Thu Sep 28, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
We have just determined that he is, in reality, Tom Bombadil.

I may have some of this wrong, but I think it goes; born in Kentucky, early childhood in the Sudan accompanied by his archeologist parents, western US, college in NoCal, then to England, and now spends a good part of his time teaching at a college in Sweden. World traveling lecturer, convention host and general bon vivant when not on his island with the Svenskas.

>Side note:  "We"?  Bâtard, I had the notion you're more a Brit than American.  Didn't you use to live on one of the Channel Islands?  Or am I mixing you up with someone else?

>On Fri Sep 22, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>>They want to decide what to do with the bodies. Surely they should simply be left there as a war grave? We didn't remove the bodies from USS Arizona.


Message aeda08af00A-10133-1102-07.htm, number 128167, was posted on Fri Sep 29 at 18:22:07
Catalonian Independence vote

Hoyden


mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/world/europe/catalonia-independence-spain-referendum.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Message aeda08af00A-10133-1112-07.htm, number 128168, was posted on Fri Sep 29 at 18:31:34
Violence at Oxford

Hoyden


aeon.co/essays/why-has-england-lost-its-medieval-taste-for-violence

Message 446488d7qHC-10134-1099+15.htm, number 128169, was posted on Sat Sep 30 at 18:19:09
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10126-904+1d.htm

Re^3: Rereading Alistair MacLean

Terry Zobeck
turtle15@cox.net


I too first came upon Alistair MacLean through reading my father's copies. With the publication of Puppet on a Chain I began buying the hardcovers each year as a birthday present to myself.  But the quality of his writing quickly began to deteriorate due to alcoholism and indifference.  Perhaps coincidentally he forsook the first person point of view used in his best books.  Most of his remaining books--The Way to Dusty Death, Circus, Athabasca, Goodbye California, Seawitch, Floodgate, and the absolute nadir River of Death were quite poor.

But those early books, from HMS Ulysses through Where Eagles Dare were among the best of British adventure thrillers.  Standouts for me were The Guns of Navarone, South by Java Head, The Last Frontier, Night Without End, Ice Station Zebra and When Eight Bells Toll.

British author Mike Ripley recently published a great survey of the classic (1950s through early 1970s) British thriller writers called Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang.  If you like this genre, this is a great read.


Message 2f30d65200A-10134-1301-07.htm, number 128170, was posted on Sat Sep 30 at 21:41:19
Horrifying video by 92 year old survivor of "USS Indianapolis" sinking

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2017/09/30/us/uss-indianapolis-survivor-reunion/index.html

Message 50e5a913p13-10135-358+05.htm, number 128171, was posted on Sun Oct 1 at 05:57:35
in reply to aeda08af00A-10133-1102-07.htm

Catalan Independence vote - live blog Sunday October 1

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Catalan referendum: reports of riot police firing rubber bullets at protesters - live

Violence breaks out in Barcelona as riot police attack protests, while Catalans cast independence votes in peaceful defiance of Spanish government

Newsblog: www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live

Interesting range of views in the comments.


Message 2f30d65200A-10135-462-07.htm, number 128172, was posted on Sun Oct 1 at 07:41:41
A chance for "an English Spleen" -- Kim Philby honored in Moscow

Hoyden


Stephen would have dissected him upon being landed in Riga.

www.nytimes.com/2017/10/01/world/europe/russia-kim-philb


Message 4747f4808HW-10135-579+14.htm, number 128173, was posted on Sun Oct 1 at 09:39:40
in reply to 446488d7qHC-10134-1099+15.htm

Re^4: Rereading Alistair MacLean

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'm always confusing The Golden Gate with Goodbye California; I remember liking the former, but the latter wasn't as enjoyable.  Completely agree about River of Death.  Floodgate was in Holland, right?  I know I must have read the others on your Bad list; maybe I'll have to reread them just to see.

If you'll forgive a sloppy cut-and-paste, Wikipedia lists his titles this way:

Year Title Notes High
NYT
Wks
NYT
1955 HMS Ulysses #8 17
1957 The Guns of Navarone #12 3
1958 South by Java Head
1959 The Last Frontier in the US The Secret Ways
1959 Night Without End #13 2
1961 Fear Is the Key
1961 The Dark Crusader in the US The Black Shrike (as Ian Stuart)
1962 The Golden Rendezvous #13 8
1962 The Satan Bug as Ian Stuart #16 1
1962 All About Lawrence of Arabia Non-fiction
1963 Ice Station Zebra #10 1
1966 When Eight Bells Toll
1967 Where Eagles Dare He also wrote the screenplay. #8 8
1968 Force 10 From Navarone #4 18
1969 Puppet on a Chain Also wrote screenplay #5 17
1970 Caravan to Vaccarès #6 12
1971 Bear Island #5 14
1972 Alistair MacLean Introduces Scotland Non-fiction, edited by Alastair Dunnett
1972 Captain Cook Non-fiction
1973 The Way to Dusty Death
1974 Breakheart Pass
1975 Circus #5 12
1976 The Golden Gate #8 2
1977 Seawitch #15 1
1978 Goodbye California #10 9
1980 Athabasca #3 [7]
1981 River of Death
1982 Partisans #15 1
1983 Floodgate #12 3
1984 San Andreas
1985 The Lonely Sea Collection of short stories (2 stories added in 2009)
1986 Santorini #13 2

I mention it because his slide was apparently not consistent; I thought River of Death was awful even while I was reading it, but I don't remember thinking badly of Floodgate and although I'm not sure I ever read Santorini, it looks like it did alright according to those cryptic columns on the right.

Hm: Captain Cook, non-fiction?  I wasn't aware of that.

On Sat Sep 30, Terry Zobeck wrote
---------------------------------
>I too first came upon Alistair MacLean through reading my father's copies. With the publication of Puppet on a Chain I began buying the hardcovers each year as a birthday present to myself.  But the quality of his writing quickly began to deteriorate due to alcoholism and indifference.  Perhaps coincidentally he forsook the first person point of view used in his best books.  Most of his remaining books--The Way to Dusty Death, Circus, Athabasca, Goodbye California, Seawitch, Floodgate, and the absolute nadir River of Death were quite poor.

>But those early books, from HMS Ulysses through Where Eagles Dare were among the best of British adventure thrillers.  Standouts for me were The Guns of Navarone, South by Java Head, The Last Frontier, Night Without End, Ice Station Zebra and When Eight Bells Toll.

>British author Mike Ripley recently published a great survey of the classic (1950s through early 1970s) British thriller writers called Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang.  If you like this genre, this is a great read.


Message 446488d7qHC-10135-636+14.htm, number 128174, was posted on Sun Oct 1 at 10:36:12
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10135-579+14.htm

Re^5: Rereading Alistair MacLean

Terry Zobeck
turtle15@cox.net


Yes, I sometimes get confused by those two titles.  Neither is all that good.  This website features reviews of most of MacLean's novels--he is working his way through all of them; it is an excellent critical overview:

https://astrofella.wordpress.com/tag/alistair-maclean/

Yes, Captain Cook is non-fiction.  He also wrote a biography of Lawrence of Arabia as a tie-in to the movie; it was aimed at juveniles.

This is a site devoted to MacLean.  I contributed the images of all of the US and UK first editions of his books:

www.alistairmaclean.com/

Of the post-Puppet on a Chain novels the only ones I rate as coming anywhere near his classic period are Bear Island, Breakheart Pass (a Western of all things), Partisans, San Andreas, and his last book, Santorini.  But at best they are pale imitations, Bear Island being the best.


Message 47e54da900A-10135-1249-07.htm, number 128175, was posted on Sun Oct 1 at 20:49:34
"El Faro" sinking, final report.

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/el-faro-captain-misjudged-hurricane-strength-coast-guard-says-n806351

Message 50e5a913p13-10141-440-90.htm, number 128176, was posted on Sat Oct 7 at 07:20:01
‘Which battle in the American War of Independence took place on this day in 1777??’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference.

Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780191823497.001.0001/acref-9780191823497-e-361


Message aeda8f9200A-10141-569-07.htm, number 128177, was posted on Sat Oct 7 at 09:29:29
"How people used to walk in the Middle Ages, before the advent of fixed-sole shoes."

Hoyden


pictorial.jezebel.com/this-video-of-how-medieval-people-walked-is-oddly-compe-1819217663

Message aeda8f9200A-10141-678-07.htm, number 128178, was posted on Sat Oct 7 at 11:18:04
Is Trump a time traveler,

Hoyden


or is this a case of a prescient novelist?


www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/07/baron-trump-novels-victorian-215689


Message 6c1413d300A-10141-1166+5a.htm, number 128179, was posted on Sat Oct 7 at 19:26:44
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10141-440-90.htm

Re: ‘Which battle in the American War of Independence took place on this day in 1777??’ . .

Don Seltzer


On Sat Oct 7, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference.

>Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780191823497.001.0001/acref-9780191823497-e-361

Benedict Arnold deserves much credit for the American victory, and not just for his exploits on the day of battle.  It was Arnold's naval initiatives in creating and leading an American flotilla on Lake Champlain in 1775 and 1776 that delayed the invasion from Canada for a year that was a major factor in the victory.

The Oxford Reference remarks about Gen Howe not getting the message in time is a gross simplification of the strategic backdrop.


Message 617ac72fUWK-10143-726+05.htm, number 128180, was posted on Mon Oct 9 at 12:06:04
in reply to aeda8f9200A-10141-678-07.htm

Say It three times fast

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Twump  




On Sat Oct 7, Hoyden wrote
--------------------------
>or is this a case of a prescient novelist?
>
>
>www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/07/baron-trump-novels-victorian-215689

>


Message bddef7cc00A-10145-948-30.htm, number 128181, was posted on Wed Oct 11 at 15:48:11
Ted Lewis

Max


I'm reading a Ted Lewis crime novel set somewhere in the U.S. Hilarious. Lewis is a terrific genre writer but he has no clue as to what Americans sound like. I'm thinking this must be what Brits hear listening to Dick Van Dyke trying to sound cockney.
Now that I think about, one of the few times his Jack Carter character loses his cool is when someone mistakes him for a cockney. Jack is from Lincolnshire.

Thinking some more, when they filmed Get Carter they moved Jack's origin to, I think, Newcastle. This probably has some major significance to a Brit but is meaningless to an American.


Message 47e54da900A-10145-1177-07.htm, number 128182, was posted on Wed Oct 11 at 19:36:48
Thoreau -- journals and botanizing -- Mathurin like.

Hoyden


www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-thoreau-saw/540615/?utm_source=nl-atlantic-daily-101117&silverid=MzMzOT

Message 50e5a913p13-10146-409-90.htm, number 128183, was posted on Thu Oct 12 at 06:49:40
Deratting South Georgia

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'The search for surviving rodents:
image host
Dickie Hall – HR Project Director: In March 2015 the last bait pellet was dropped on South Georgia and the third eradication season came to an end. All of the indications since that day have been positive and no rodents have been sighted. Bird life is present in numbers not seen in living memory, with pipits and pintail ducks returning to breedinggrounds abandoned many years ago following the invasion of rodents . . ‘

tinyurl.com/y8dzlrl3


Message aedf04ba00A-10146-628+5a.htm, number 128184, was posted on Thu Oct 12 at 10:28:28
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10146-409-90.htm

In other rat news-- new species, eats coconuts in the Solomans.

Hoyden


www.google.com/amp/amp.dw.com/en/giant-coconut-eating-rat-found-in-solomon-islands/a-40691911

Should be named after Javier Bardem's character in "Skyfall".


Message 605b084d00A-10146-781-07.htm, number 128185, was posted on Thu Oct 12 at 13:01:12
A flogging ship? Hell afloat?

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2017/10/11/politics/morale-problems-us-navy-shiloh/index.html

Message 4747f4808HW-10147-553+1c.htm, number 128186, was posted on Fri Oct 13 at 09:14:03
in reply to bddef7cc00A-10145-948-30.htm

Re: Ted Lewis

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Reminds me that Dick Francis, whose thrillers I really enjoy, often puts "sure" in the mouths of American characters: "We sure are glad you came".  Apparently the Brits don't use sure to mean "very much", nor real either ("I'm real glad you said that").

It gets me wondering:  I would have said that "sure" as an emphatic is perfectly normal English, so how did I even recognize it in Francis' novels as an Americanism?  Does it stand out because to my ear it sounds out of place in British writing (which would allow me to consider myself real percipient), or because he overuses it a bit?  Or do Americans not say it any more?  I'm mouthing the sentences silently and I've come to suspect that I don't say "sure" that way myself, except maybe sometimes as a contrary assurance like the French si ("Sure I do!").

Back to Dick Van Dyke: As a child I had no problems with his supposedly hilarious cockney accent; I was perfectly willing to take it as the authoritative model.  But I confess to huge admiration now for those who can do it well.  Sam Neill, for example, Colin Ferrell, and not far behind them Hugh Laurie.  Oh, and Lindsay Lohan, or so it seemed to me.

On Wed Oct 11, Max wrote
------------------------
>I'm reading a Ted Lewis crime novel set somewhere in the U.S. Hilarious. Lewis is a terrific genre writer but he has no clue as to what Americans sound like. I'm thinking this must be what Brits hear listening to Dick Van Dyke trying to sound cockney.

>Now that I think about, one of the few times his Jack Carter character loses his cool is when someone mistakes him for a cockney. Jack is from Lincolnshire.

>Thinking some more, when they filmed Get Carter they moved Jack's origin to, I think, Newcastle. This probably has some major significance to a Brit but is meaningless to an American.


Message 47e54da900A-10147-1115-07.htm, number 128187, was posted on Fri Oct 13 at 18:34:58
Lack of laudanum--shared empathy.

Hoyden


aeon.co/essays/how-doctors-turned-away-from-their-patients-stories-of-pain

Message bddedad900A-10147-1205+1c.htm, number 128188, was posted on Fri Oct 13 at 20:05:15
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10147-553+1c.htm

Re^2: Ted Lewis

Max


The tell for Brits not really sounding US is that although they are good at not sounding Brit they fail at generating a realistic regional US accent. Saying sure is well and good but sure sounds different in North Carolina than Chicago.
Idris Elba put on a compleatly authentic black guy from Baltimore accent. Very impressive.



On Fri Oct 13, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Reminds me that Dick Francis, whose thrillers I really enjoy, often puts "sure" in the mouths of American characters: "We sure are glad you came".  Apparently the Brits don't use sure to mean "very much", nor real either ("I'm real glad you said that").

>It gets me wondering:  I would have said that "sure" as an emphatic is perfectly normal English, so how did I even recognize it in Francis' novels as an Americanism?  Does it stand out because to my ear it sounds out of place in British writing (which would allow me to consider myself real percipient), or because he overuses it a bit?  Or do Americans not say it any more?  I'm mouthing the sentences silently and I've come to suspect that I don't say "sure" that way myself, except maybe sometimes as a contrary assurance like the French si ("Sure I do!").

>Back to Dick Van Dyke: As a child I had no problems with his supposedly hilarious cockney accent; I was perfectly willing to take it as the authoritative model.  But I confess to huge admiration now for those who can do it well.  Sam Neill, for example, Colin Ferrell, and not far behind them Hugh Laurie.  Oh, and Lindsay Lohan, or so it seemed to me.

>On Wed Oct 11, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>I'm reading a Ted Lewis crime novel set somewhere in the U.S. Hilarious. Lewis is a terrific genre writer but he has no clue as to what Americans sound like. I'm thinking this must be what Brits hear listening to Dick Van Dyke trying to sound cockney.

>>Now that I think about, one of the few times his Jack Carter character loses his cool is when someone mistakes him for a cockney. Jack is from Lincolnshire.

>>Thinking some more, when they filmed Get Carter they moved Jack's origin to, I think, Newcastle. This probably has some major significance to a Brit but is meaningless to an American.


Message 47e54da900A-10149-691-07.htm, number 128189, was posted on Sun Oct 15 at 11:31:14
The things you tell me Jack; a hurricane in Ireland? The West of Ireland forsooth?

Hoyden


www.met.ie

"Update on Ophelia
12 October 2017

There has been some media coverage that hurricane Ophelia will impact Ireland to some degree at the start of next week. At this stage, there is strong evidence from the weather forecast models that its remnants will track close to or even over parts of Ireland, but at present, there are still a wide spread of possible outcomes. Our forecasters are treating the situation with caution and are in contact with our international colleagues, but given the lead time and the inherent uncertainties that come with the modelling of a tropical system it won’t be possible to quantify the exact timing, nor the strength or intensity of the wind and rain, in any great detail until later in the weekend. Ophelia won’t be a hurricane in meteorological terms when it reaches our part of the world as she will have moved over the cooler waters of the mid-Atlantic and undergone what is known as extra-tropical transition. So while there could be the threat of wind gusts reaching hurricane force or indeed heavy rainfall with this system, it means the traditional attributes of a hurricane – such as an eye or an eye-wall containing a core of hurricane force winds - are very unlikely to be present. Instead, it will likely engage and merge with a frontal zone in the Atlantic, morphing into a mid-latitude depression with tropical characteristics. Met Éireann forecasters will be keeping a close eye on the evolution of this storm over the coming days and warnings will be issued as confidence in the evolution allows."


Message 47e54da900A-10149-886+57.htm, number 128190, was posted on Sun Oct 15 at 14:45:44
in reply to aedf04ba00A-10146-628+5a.htm

*Solomons*. Foul auto-correct

Hoyden


Siri, spell....

Message 50e5a913p13-10149-1179+07.htm, number 128191, was posted on Sun Oct 15 at 19:39:01
in reply to 47e54da900A-10149-691-07.htm

Re: The things you tell me Jack; a hurricane in Ireland? . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Oct 15, Hoyden  wrote
----------------------------
>www.met.ie

>"Update on Ophelia
>12 October 2017

> . . Ophelia won’t be a hurricane in meteorological terms when it reaches our part of the world as she will have moved over the cooler waters of the mid-Atlantic and undergone what is known as extra-tropical transition. So while there could be the threat of wind gusts reaching hurricane force or indeed heavy rainfall with this system, it means the traditional attributes of a hurricane – such as an eye or an eye-wall containing a core of hurricane force winds - are very unlikely to be presen . .

See:
earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-15.92,51.07,639
www.nhc.noaa.gov/graphics_at2.shtml?cone#contents

and



The Great Storm of 1987


Message 50e5a913p13-10150-406+06.htm, number 128192, was posted on Mon Oct 16 at 06:46:19
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10149-1179+07.htm

Shipping forecast - Shannon

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Gale warning - Issued: 2141 UTC on Sunday 15 October 2017:

Northeasterly severe gale force 9 veering southerly and increasing hurricane force 12 soon, further veering westerly and decreasing gale force 8 later

Wind
Cyclonic becoming west severe gale 9 to violent storm 11, decreasing 5 to 7 later.

Sea state
High or very high becoming very rough.

Weather
Rain or showers.

Visibility
Moderate or poor, becoming good

www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/marine-shipping-forecast#shannon


Message 6c1413d300A-10150-604+06.htm, number 128193, was posted on Mon Oct 16 at 10:04:28
in reply to 47e54da900A-10149-691-07.htm

Re: The things you tell me Jack; a hurricane in Ireland? The West of Ireland forsooth?

Don Seltzer


On Sun Oct 15, Hoyden  wrote
----------------------------
>Ophelia won’t be a hurricane in meteorological terms when it reaches our part of the world as she will have moved over the cooler waters of the mid-Atlantic and undergone what is known as extra-tropical transition.

Hurricane Sandy had made a similar extra-tropical transition before it slammed into the mid-Atlantic states of the US in 2012.


Message 56003e26cb5-10150-687+03.htm, number 128194, was posted on Mon Oct 16 at 11:26:36
in reply to 605b084d00A-10146-781-07.htm

Bread and water, forsooth!

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



That strikes me as insufficient to a sailor's nutritional needs, which aren't met all that well anyway, from what I hear.

Message 56003e26cb5-10150-688+06.htm, number 128195, was posted on Mon Oct 16 at 11:28:30
in reply to 47e54da900A-10149-691-07.htm

We're in for a right dirty night, mate.

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



The sky here in the south of England is an evil yellow color. It's dust from the Sahara and smoke from forest fires in Portugal being sucked into the hurricane.

Orange Sky


Message 50e5a913p13-10151-783-90.htm, number 128196, was posted on Tue Oct 17 at 13:02:55
The sinking of Falklands warship HMS Sheffield

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The catalogue of errors and failings that ended in the sinking of a Royal Navy destroyer during the Falklands war has been disclosed after being covered up for 35 years. Marked “Secret – UK Eyes Bravo”, the full, uncensored report shows:

- Some members of the crew were “bored and a little frustrated by inactivity” and the ship was “not fully prepared” for an attack.
- The anti-air warfare officer had left the ship’s operations room and was having a coffee in the wardroom when the Argentinian navy launched the attack, while his assistant had left “to visit the heads” (relieve himself).
- The radar on board the ship that could have detected incoming Super Étendard fighter aircraft had been blanked out by a transmission being made to another vessel.
- When a nearby ship, HMS Glasgow, did spot the approaching aircraft, the principal warfare officer in the Sheffield’s ops room failed to react, “partly through inexperience, but more importantly from inadequacy”.
- The anti-air warfare officer was recalled to the ops room, but did not believe the Sheffield was within range of Argentina’s Super Étendard aircraft that carried the missiles.
- When the incoming missiles came into view, officers on the bridge were “mesmerised” by the sight and did not broadcast a warning to the ship’s company.

. . nobody called the captain. His ship did not go to “action stations”, did not fire off any clouds of chaff in an attempt to deflect the Exocets, and did not turn towards the incoming missiles in order to narrow the Sheffield’s profile. Moreover, some of the ship’s weapons were unloaded and unmanned, and no attempt was made to shoot down the incoming missiles . .

Clive Ponting, then a senior civil servant in the MoD, said the loss of the Sheffield was too great a catastrophe for the full facts to be made public. “Most people were clear that there wasn’t going to be public blame for mistakes that had been made,” Ponting said.

[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/15/revealed-full-story-behind-sinking-of-falklands-warship-hms-sheffield]
………….
'The National Archives said the document . . was only available to view in person at its headquarters in Kew, London.’

Operation Corporate (Falkland Conflict): Board of Inquiry into the loss of HMS Sheffield; report

discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16517022


Message 50e5a913p13-10151-817-90.htm, number 128197, was posted on Tue Oct 17 at 13:37:31
The Butchering Art by Lindsey Fitzharris – grisly medicine

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'In The Butchering Art, historian Lindsey Fitzharris recreates a critical turning point in the history of medicine, when Joseph Lister transformed surgery from a brutal, harrowing practice to the safe, vaunted profession we know today.'
www.penguin.co.nz/books/the-butchering-art-joseph-listers-quest-to-transform-the-brutal-world-of-victorian-medicine-978024126

'Review: The Butchering Art: Joseph Lister’s Quest to Transform the Grisly World of Victorian Medicine – Lindsey Fitzharris’s story of Lister’s battle to introduce hygiene to the operating theatre makes compelling reading'
www.theguardian.com/books/2017/oct/09/butchering-art-review-joseph-listers-quest-grisly-world-victorian-medicine-lindsey-fitzharris

Profile: www.theguardian.com/books/2017/oct/12/the-butchering-art-by-lindsey-fitzharris-review
www.drlindseyfitzharris.com/

Dr Lindsey Fitzharris will be touring the US from October 17th to November 5th, beginning at the Mutter Museum in Philadelphia and ending at Coney Island in New York City. Go to www.drlindseyfitzharris.com/ to see full schedule.


Message 4747f4808HW-10151-893-30.htm, number 128198, was posted on Tue Oct 17 at 14:54:30
Speaking of inconsistent authors....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message 6cadb064gpf-10151-1118+1e.htm, number 128199, was posted on Tue Oct 17 at 18:37:57
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10151-893-30.htm

Re: Speaking of inconsistent authors....

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Bob, my experience with Grisham is similar, except I've pretty much given up on him. I've pretty much given up on all sorts of authors since encountering Patrick O'Brian. I simply can't tolerate the shallow crap that I once found interesting. I fall back - with some exceptions - on the tried and true classics i.e. Dickens and Twain and find they seldom disappoint.


On Tue Oct 17, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

>Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

>In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

>With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message 591e316400A-10152-190+1d.htm, number 128200, was posted on Wed Oct 18 at 03:10:24
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10151-893-30.htm

Re: Speaking of inconsistent authors....

NiceRedTrousers


The thought of David Niven and Jerry Pournelle collaborating made me chuckle: "The Moon's a Balloon" with added Moties.
Larry Niven on the other hand...but I'm being pedantic - sorry!

I do like Niven and Pournelle, and I agree about Heinlein.  When I was devouring his books in my teens I'd read anything, even if I did struggle a bit with Stranger in a Strange Land and some of his later works.

I'm a big Neal Stephenson fan - Cryptonomicon, The Baroque Cycle (great for history buffs), but I have to grind through some of his more recent stuff.

I can't say I've read any John Grisham.  I think the marketing of the blockbuster films may have put me off, but then it didn't put me off Tom Clancy so maybe I should give him a go.


On Tue Oct 17, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

>Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

>In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

>With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message 4747f4808HW-10152-672+1d.htm, number 128201, was posted on Wed Oct 18 at 11:13:06
in reply to 591e316400A-10152-190+1d.htm

Re^2: Speaking of inconsistent authors....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Funny—I can't recall a Tom-Clancy movie that satisfied me, certainly including Hunt for Red October.  I probably would have liked it better had the book not spoiled me for the movie.

I used to think the problem was simply that books always spoil me for the movie, but I've found a few exceptions.  Mostly when movies change the plot, I get all chuffed about it.  I can live with Liv Tyler as an elf, but that whole added bit with Strider falling off a cliff seemed like a stupidly unnecessary embellishment to me—and I was wroth, very wroth when Faramir dragged Frodo and Sam all the way back to Osgiliath before finally releasing him with that fatuous line "I think at last we understand each other, Frodo Baggins".  The recent attempts at Narnia stories I accorded one horrified look and then turned away in disgust.  And so on.

But except for a few movies that clung closely to the book (for example Where Eagles Dare and the Harry-Potter series), the ones I enjoyed seem to be where the plots changed so much it was almost a different story.  Jaws wasn't much like the book, but they made a good (different) story out of it.  Likewise Jurassic Park.

I'll risk the pedantry just long enough to ask: David Niven good or bad?  Oh, wait, Larry Niven!  Yes, I'm always getting those two turned around; sorry about that.

On Wed Oct 18, NiceRedTrousers wrote
------------------------------------
>The thought of David Niven and Jerry Pournelle collaborating made me chuckle: "The Moon's a Balloon" with added Moties.
>Larry Niven on the other hand...but I'm being pedantic - sorry!

>I do like Niven and Pournelle, and I agree about Heinlein.  When I was devouring his books in my teens I'd read anything, even if I did struggle a bit with Stranger in a Strange Land and some of his later works.

>I'm a big Neal Stephenson fan - Cryptonomicon, The Baroque Cycle (great for history buffs), but I have to grind through some of his more recent stuff.

>I can't say I've read any John Grisham.  I think the marketing of the blockbuster films may have put me off, but then it didn't put me off Tom Clancy so maybe I should give him a go.

>On Tue Oct 17, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

>>Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

>>In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

>>With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message 2fb505cc00A-10153-527+1c.htm, number 128202, was posted on Thu Oct 19 at 08:46:59
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10152-672+1d.htm

Re^3: Speaking of inconsistent authors....

Max


If, like me, you are a lawyer then the plot holes in Grisham are fatal.

Clancy is like George Martin, just dense enough to keep my attention without requiring real thought.


On Wed Oct 18, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Funny—I can't recall a Tom-Clancy movie that satisfied me, certainly including Hunt for Red October.  I probably would have liked it better had the book not spoiled me for the movie.

>I used to think the problem was simply that books always spoil me for the movie, but I've found a few exceptions.  Mostly when movies change the plot, I get all chuffed about it.  I can live with Liv Tyler as an elf, but that whole added bit with Strider falling off a cliff seemed like a stupidly unnecessary embellishment to me—and I was wroth, very wroth when Faramir dragged Frodo and Sam all the way back to Osgiliath before finally releasing him with that fatuous line "I think at last we understand each other, Frodo Baggins".  The recent attempts at Narnia stories I accorded one horrified look and then turned away in disgust.  And so on.

>But except for a few movies that clung closely to the book (for example Where Eagles Dare and the Harry-Potter series), the ones I enjoyed seem to be where the plots changed so much it was almost a different story.  Jaws wasn't much like the book, but they made a good (different) story out of it.  Likewise Jurassic Park.

>I'll risk the pedantry just long enough to ask: David Niven good or bad?  Oh, wait, Larry Niven!  Yes, I'm always getting those two turned around; sorry about that.

>On Wed Oct 18, NiceRedTrousers wrote
>------------------------------------
>>The thought of David Niven and Jerry Pournelle collaborating made me chuckle: "The Moon's a Balloon" with added Moties.
>>Larry Niven on the other hand...but I'm being pedantic - sorry!

>>I do like Niven and Pournelle, and I agree about Heinlein.  When I was devouring his books in my teens I'd read anything, even if I did struggle a bit with Stranger in a Strange Land and some of his later works.

>>I'm a big Neal Stephenson fan - Cryptonomicon, The Baroque Cycle (great for history buffs), but I have to grind through some of his more recent stuff.

>>I can't say I've read any John Grisham.  I think the marketing of the blockbuster films may have put me off, but then it didn't put me off Tom Clancy so maybe I should give him a go.

>>On Tue Oct 17, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

>>>Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

>>>In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

>>>With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message 4747f4808HW-10153-1308+1c.htm, number 128203, was posted on Thu Oct 19 at 21:48:34
in reply to 2fb505cc00A-10153-527+1c.htm

Re^4: Speaking of inconsistent authors....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


That makes sense.  When I read a story where the author gets the computer details right, at the very least the missing mistakes don't distract me from the story and at best I actually enjoy finding a writer who took the trouble.  I read one of those just last week, now if I can just remember whose ... oh, I'll bet it was Twice Shy by Dick Francis.  And I remember grimacing at some of the computer concepts attempted in the beginning of The Hunt for Red October, although in the end I raved over it.

(I'd told my librarian I'd been caught up in submarine stories lately, and she recommended THfRO.  I came back raving, as I said, and she told me "Yeah, that books been kind of a sleeper; it's been around for about two years and nobody's noticed it, but suddenly it's getting attention".  After that I read all the Tom-Clancy stories, but within a few months I had to start getting on a waiting list.

Max, if Grisham were already an adored favorite I might not want to know—or maybe I would—but as it is I'd rather hear the facts than revere the author:  Care to let me in on one or three of the fatal legal-procedure flaws?  (I have a private bet with myself that one of them might be the bit in The Rainmaker where the insurance company "complied" with the discovery requirements by handing over unintelligible computer reports several feet thick, and during the trial the lawyer handed the same printout to an executive of the corporate defendant on the witness stand and asked him several questions based on that report, which the executive of course couldn't answer.  I thought it was a lovely move at the time, but later I decided it's probably an old trick and therefore no longer used.)

On Thu Oct 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>If, like me, you are a lawyer then the plot holes in Grisham are fatal.

>Clancy is like George Martin, just dense enough to keep my attention without requiring real thought.

>On Wed Oct 18, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Funny—I can't recall a Tom-Clancy movie that satisfied me, certainly including Hunt for Red October.  I probably would have liked it better had the book not spoiled me for the movie.

>>I used to think the problem was simply that books always spoil me for the movie, but I've found a few exceptions.  Mostly when movies change the plot, I get all chuffed about it.  I can live with Liv Tyler as an elf, but that whole added bit with Strider falling off a cliff seemed like a stupidly unnecessary embellishment to me—and I was wroth, very wroth when Faramir dragged Frodo and Sam all the way back to Osgiliath before finally releasing him with that fatuous line "I think at last we understand each other, Frodo Baggins".  The recent attempts at Narnia stories I accorded one horrified look and then turned away in disgust.  And so on.

>>But except for a few movies that clung closely to the book (for example Where Eagles Dare and the Harry-Potter series), the ones I enjoyed seem to be where the plots changed so much it was almost a different story.  Jaws wasn't much like the book, but they made a good (different) story out of it.  Likewise Jurassic Park.

>>I'll risk the pedantry just long enough to ask: David Niven good or bad?  Oh, wait, Larry Niven!  Yes, I'm always getting those two turned around; sorry about that.

>>On Wed Oct 18, NiceRedTrousers wrote
>>------------------------------------
>>>The thought of David Niven and Jerry Pournelle collaborating made me chuckle: "The Moon's a Balloon" with added Moties.
>>>Larry Niven on the other hand...but I'm being pedantic - sorry!

>>>I do like Niven and Pournelle, and I agree about Heinlein.  When I was devouring his books in my teens I'd read anything, even if I did struggle a bit with Stranger in a Strange Land and some of his later works.

>>>I'm a big Neal Stephenson fan - Cryptonomicon, The Baroque Cycle (great for history buffs), but I have to grind through some of his more recent stuff.

>>>I can't say I've read any John Grisham.  I think the marketing of the blockbuster films may have put me off, but then it didn't put me off Tom Clancy so maybe I should give him a go.

>>>On Tue Oct 17, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>--------------------------------
>>>>We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

>>>>Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

>>>>In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

>>>>With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message c61740a78YV-10154-843-90.htm, number 128204, was posted on Fri Oct 20 at 14:02:48
The Hunt for...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


"That well known publication, the London Literary Review, today carries
an item and extract on the new book.

"Due to other writing commitments, Patrick O'Brian has engaged his close
friend Tom Clancy to ghost-write his next book. An extract is printed below.
At first this may seem an unlikely pairing; it dates back to a review by
Mr.O'Brian of Mr. Clancy's book 'The Sum of All Fears', at which Clancy took
offence and called his elderly fellow author out for a duel. This was settled
by each carrying his trademark weapon - an antique silver-handled flintlock
pistol for O'Brian, and a laser-guided anti-tank bazooka with computerised
wind-compensation and terrain-following guidance system for Clancy (both
obtained by mail-order from Sears). The duel resulted in minor flesh wounds
for both and a rather singed appearance to O'Brian's hair, at which point
honour was satisfied and a firm friendship ensued. We are honoured to print a
small part of the resulting book."

*** NORTH ATLANTIC, 0900 ZULU, 13 DECEMBER 1803

In the grey cold fog, the silent, sleek, deadly hull of the HMS Stealthy
cut through the waters. On her quarterdeck Jack Aubrey peered about him
through the mist.

"What have we got up, Tom ?"

"Sir, I have two lookouts at Combat Mast Patrol on the fore and main
crosstrees, and two midshipmen spotted on the deck at Plus Five readiness
with orders for the tops."

"Get 'em up, Mr. Pullings"

At the blast of a whistle, deckhands rushed up to the mids, snatched away
their coffee cups, rammed hard round hats and small silvery spectacles
designed by Stephen on their heads, and stood back. The midshipmen twirled
their
forefingers and gave a thumbs-up, a crewman raised his right arm, and two
burly Able Seamen picked up the reefers and launched them at the ratlines.
They swarmed upwards.

"They're off, Sir."

"Very good, Tom."

A short while later there came a shout.

"Conn, Masthead: one sail, bearing two-five-zero, range four, closing.
Topsails only."

"Evasive, Mr. Pullings."

A short while later, they were ghosting along behind the other vessel,
murky in the fog.

"Tom, I believe we may... - er, why is Mr. Martin shouting 'Call the
ball' at that bird ?"

"Truth to tell, Sir, I'm not entirely sure."

They watched with puzzled frowns as the Revd. Martin dropped his red and
green lanterns and screamed "Wave off! Wave off!" at a small fat quail gliding
down towards the deck. It clipped the taffrail, tripped nose down onto the
deck and skidded forward to collide with Jack's feet, smoking gently. Martin
grabbed it, took a roll of paper off its leg, and gave it to Jack before
hurrying downstairs with the bird, comforting it. The paper was labelled
"Admiralty Mk.IIIA Quail-Type Long-Range Communications Asset, HM Govt
Property"
and was crammed with coded gibberish. Jack shook his head resignedly and took
it
below. Damned newfangled devices.

As he entered his cabin an arm shot round his neck and squeezed his
windpipe, and an uncouth voice breathed in his ear:

"I can break your spine in three places from here with my left kneecap.
The desk is booby-trapped, I know 15 martial arts, I've just poured
gunpowder down your shirt and I can light a match with my bare teeth. You can
call
me Clark - John Clark. It's not my real name, but you'll be dead before you
find out."

"Look - for God's sake, Killick."

"Oh. Beg parding, Cap'n. I was just guarding these here wicked private papers,
and I didn't knows it was you."

"Christ. Well, here's another one. Take it down to my clerk, and if I
catch you at my Madeira again..."

There came another shout from above. The ship in front was heeling to
starboard unexpectedly - a French manoeuvre known to the Royal Navy as 'Crazy
Yves'. Jack rushed on deck, shouting 'back the foretopsail!'.

"Conn, Masthead: we're cavitating - the sails are flapping! He can hear
us!"

A shot boomed out from in front. It had been meant as a warning, but a
ball came skipping over the water, ricocheted off a tall wave, and smashed
Jack's quarter-gallery to smithereens. He looked down mournfully at the
remains
of his place of ease drifting away in the swell, reflecting that only that
morning he'd taken half a dozen of the Doctor's special blue pills. That did
it.

"Bonden, stand by to establish contact with submarine assets," he barked.
"Tom, in the Doctor's absence please ask Mr. Martin to arm the ASLOTH
launcher."

Bonden ran below and leaned out of a gunport. Below him the Doctor's wooden
submersible, copied after his earlier model used in the Red Sea, bobbed
a few feet under the surface. Above him he heard the cry, "Bonden, activate
the Ultra Low Frequency underwater communications device". He promptly
picked up a bargepole and rapped smartly three times on the top of the wooden
diving
bell.

Inside, Stephen and Padeen heard the thump - thump - thump. "Is there to be
no peace in this miserable war-torn world ?" fumed Stephen, flinging aside the
squid he'd been examining. There was a sad wet squelch. "Very well - hand me
that cursed book", He rifled through His Majesty's Admiralty's General
Printed Instructions on the Deployment of Underwater Vehicles, 3rd Edition.
"Three taps - STAND OUT FROM UNDER, WE'RE SINKING - no, no, wrong page -
ah, here we are: BY THE AUTHORITY INVESTED IN ME BY THEIR LORDSHIPS, I DO
REQUIRE AND DIRECT YOU TO CONDUCT UNRESTRICTED WARFARE AGAINST ALL
SURFACE TARGETS IN VICINITY, OR ANSWER TO THE CONTRARY AT YOUR PERIL. RULES OF
ENGAGEMENT OPTION BRAVO. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. - good heavens, all that
from three taps, for all love ?"

"The English are a verbose race, so they are." replied Padeen in his native
fluent Gaelic, climbing on to his geared pedals. Outside a propellor
began to turn, and they moved off. Operation SCREAMING JELLYFISH was underway.

Back on deck, Jack brought the ship about and gave the order to fire.
His Gunner had been a gunner's mate under him on board the old Worcester,
and had unfortunately been deeply impressed by the firework powder that Jack
had used for practice firing. Nowadays he had to be constantly checked
from loading the ship with flares, flying rockets, sparklers, and
Catherine wheels. The results of his last run ashore now became sadly apparent
as
the guns went off and the air between the two ships filled with spinning,
whistling, dazzling projectiles in assorted colours; great gushes and
fountains
of sparks; shots that flew up to a great height and then divided into
countless lovely flames, and one that exploded into hundreds of tiny flares on
cute little parachutes. The Gunner giggled and rolled around on the deck,
chuckling and sucking his thumb. His mate hurried him off to feed him
more of his regular dried herb pills.

Meanwhile, Martin had finished his preparations. He patted the hollow
projectile, and watched as it was loaded into a stumpy gun on the
forecastle. There was a loud bang, and the secret weapon was on its way. It
soared
out over the water. As it reached its apogee, the protective shroud fell
away and the warhead got its first view of the enemy. Wearing little
protective
goggles, it peered around as its canvas canopy opened. The sloth settled
gently on the deck, unseen, and began to gnaw away at the rigging.

Jack stood on his quarterdeck and gazed through his telescope as his elite
forces did their worst. The enemy's masts tumbled in a confusion of
sails as the sloth triumphed. The Gunner's special unauthorised flare-shower
set
the whole mass on fire. Finally the diving bell with its specially adapted
hull-mounted surgical bone-drill sent the lot bubbling into the sea. The
Gunner's last shot detonated in a carefully timed shower of delayed flares,
leaving the words THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING TO THE SHOW HAPPY GUY FAWKES DAY
GOD SAVE
THE KING AND PARLIAMENT hanging in letters of fire above the wreckage.

The clerk came running up on deck, waving his decoded message. "To Captn
Stealthy comma at sea stop", it read. "Be advised my brother Heneage in
your immediate area comma carrying despatches for you stop convey my regards
Doctor Maturin stop Melville comma FstSeaLd stop".

"Er..." said Jack, looking uncertainly at the sodden splinters drifting
past him. The fog rolled in.

[Marketing Director to Editorial team, MEMO: any chance of getting Craig
Thomas instead ?]"


Message c61740a78YV-10154-845+1b.htm, number 128205, was posted on Fri Oct 20 at 14:05:02
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10153-1308+1c.htm

Re^5: The Hunt for...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


"That well known publication, the London Literary Review, today carries
an item and extract on the new book.

"Due to other writing commitments, Patrick O'Brian has engaged his close
friend Tom Clancy to ghost-write his next book. An extract is printed below.
At first this may seem an unlikely pairing; it dates back to a review by
Mr.O'Brian of Mr. Clancy's book 'The Sum of All Fears', at which Clancy took
offence and called his elderly fellow author out for a duel. This was settled
by each carrying his trademark weapon - an antique silver-handled flintlock
pistol for O'Brian, and a laser-guided anti-tank bazooka with computerised
wind-compensation and terrain-following guidance system for Clancy (both
obtained by mail-order from Sears). The duel resulted in minor flesh wounds
for both and a rather singed appearance to O'Brian's hair, at which point
honour was satisfied and a firm friendship ensued. We are honoured to print a
small part of the resulting book."

*** NORTH ATLANTIC, 0900 ZULU, 13 DECEMBER 1803

In the grey cold fog, the silent, sleek, deadly hull of the HMS Stealthy
cut through the waters. On her quarterdeck Jack Aubrey peered about him
through the mist.

"What have we got up, Tom ?"

"Sir, I have two lookouts at Combat Mast Patrol on the fore and main
crosstrees, and two midshipmen spotted on the deck at Plus Five readiness
with orders for the tops."

"Get 'em up, Mr. Pullings"

At the blast of a whistle, deckhands rushed up to the mids, snatched away
their coffee cups, rammed hard round hats and small silvery spectacles
designed by Stephen on their heads, and stood back. The midshipmen twirled
their
forefingers and gave a thumbs-up, a crewman raised his right arm, and two
burly Able Seamen picked up the reefers and launched them at the ratlines.
They swarmed upwards.

"They're off, Sir."

"Very good, Tom."

A short while later there came a shout.

"Conn, Masthead: one sail, bearing two-five-zero, range four, closing.
Topsails only."

"Evasive, Mr. Pullings."

A short while later, they were ghosting along behind the other vessel,
murky in the fog.

"Tom, I believe we may... - er, why is Mr. Martin shouting 'Call the
ball' at that bird ?"

"Truth to tell, Sir, I'm not entirely sure."

They watched with puzzled frowns as the Revd. Martin dropped his red and
green lanterns and screamed "Wave off! Wave off!" at a small fat quail gliding
down towards the deck. It clipped the taffrail, tripped nose down onto the
deck and skidded forward to collide with Jack's feet, smoking gently. Martin
grabbed it, took a roll of paper off its leg, and gave it to Jack before
hurrying downstairs with the bird, comforting it. The paper was labelled
"Admiralty Mk.IIIA Quail-Type Long-Range Communications Asset, HM Govt
Property"
and was crammed with coded gibberish. Jack shook his head resignedly and took
it
below. Damned newfangled devices.

As he entered his cabin an arm shot round his neck and squeezed his
windpipe, and an uncouth voice breathed in his ear:

"I can break your spine in three places from here with my left kneecap.
The desk is booby-trapped, I know 15 martial arts, I've just poured
gunpowder down your shirt and I can light a match with my bare teeth. You can
call
me Clark - John Clark. It's not my real name, but you'll be dead before you
find out."

"Look - for God's sake, Killick."

"Oh. Beg parding, Cap'n. I was just guarding these here wicked private papers,
and I didn't knows it was you."

"Christ. Well, here's another one. Take it down to my clerk, and if I
catch you at my Madeira again..."

There came another shout from above. The ship in front was heeling to
starboard unexpectedly - a French manoeuvre known to the Royal Navy as 'Crazy
Yves'. Jack rushed on deck, shouting 'back the foretopsail!'.

"Conn, Masthead: we're cavitating - the sails are flapping! He can hear
us!"

A shot boomed out from in front. It had been meant as a warning, but a
ball came skipping over the water, ricocheted off a tall wave, and smashed
Jack's quarter-gallery to smithereens. He looked down mournfully at the
remains
of his place of ease drifting away in the swell, reflecting that only that
morning he'd taken half a dozen of the Doctor's special blue pills. That did
it.

"Bonden, stand by to establish contact with submarine assets," he barked.
"Tom, in the Doctor's absence please ask Mr. Martin to arm the ASLOTH
launcher."

Bonden ran below and leaned out of a gunport. Below him the Doctor's wooden
submersible, copied after his earlier model used in the Red Sea, bobbed
a few feet under the surface. Above him he heard the cry, "Bonden, activate
the Ultra Low Frequency underwater communications device". He promptly
picked up a bargepole and rapped smartly three times on the top of the wooden
diving
bell.

Inside, Stephen and Padeen heard the thump - thump - thump. "Is there to be
no peace in this miserable war-torn world ?" fumed Stephen, flinging aside the
squid he'd been examining. There was a sad wet squelch. "Very well - hand me
that cursed book", He rifled through His Majesty's Admiralty's General
Printed Instructions on the Deployment of Underwater Vehicles, 3rd Edition.
"Three taps - STAND OUT FROM UNDER, WE'RE SINKING - no, no, wrong page -
ah, here we are: BY THE AUTHORITY INVESTED IN ME BY THEIR LORDSHIPS, I DO
REQUIRE AND DIRECT YOU TO CONDUCT UNRESTRICTED WARFARE AGAINST ALL
SURFACE TARGETS IN VICINITY, OR ANSWER TO THE CONTRARY AT YOUR PERIL. RULES OF
ENGAGEMENT OPTION BRAVO. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. - good heavens, all that
from three taps, for all love ?"

"The English are a verbose race, so they are." replied Padeen in his native
fluent Gaelic, climbing on to his geared pedals. Outside a propellor
began to turn, and they moved off. Operation SCREAMING JELLYFISH was underway.

Back on deck, Jack brought the ship about and gave the order to fire.
His Gunner had been a gunner's mate under him on board the old Worcester,
and had unfortunately been deeply impressed by the firework powder that Jack
had used for practice firing. Nowadays he had to be constantly checked
from loading the ship with flares, flying rockets, sparklers, and
Catherine wheels. The results of his last run ashore now became sadly apparent
as
the guns went off and the air between the two ships filled with spinning,
whistling, dazzling projectiles in assorted colours; great gushes and
fountains
of sparks; shots that flew up to a great height and then divided into
countless lovely flames, and one that exploded into hundreds of tiny flares on
cute little parachutes. The Gunner giggled and rolled around on the deck,
chuckling and sucking his thumb. His mate hurried him off to feed him
more of his regular dried herb pills.

Meanwhile, Martin had finished his preparations. He patted the hollow
projectile, and watched as it was loaded into a stumpy gun on the
forecastle. There was a loud bang, and the secret weapon was on its way. It
soared
out over the water. As it reached its apogee, the protective shroud fell
away and the warhead got its first view of the enemy. Wearing little
protective
goggles, it peered around as its canvas canopy opened. The sloth settled
gently on the deck, unseen, and began to gnaw away at the rigging.

Jack stood on his quarterdeck and gazed through his telescope as his elite
forces did their worst. The enemy's masts tumbled in a confusion of
sails as the sloth triumphed. The Gunner's special unauthorised flare-shower
set
the whole mass on fire. Finally the diving bell with its specially adapted
hull-mounted surgical bone-drill sent the lot bubbling into the sea. The
Gunner's last shot detonated in a carefully timed shower of delayed flares,
leaving the words THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING TO THE SHOW HAPPY GUY FAWKES DAY
GOD SAVE
THE KING AND PARLIAMENT hanging in letters of fire above the wreckage.

The clerk came running up on deck, waving his decoded message. "To Captn
Stealthy comma at sea stop", it read. "Be advised my brother Heneage in
your immediate area comma carrying despatches for you stop convey my regards
Doctor Maturin stop Melville comma FstSeaLd stop".

"Er..." said Jack, looking uncertainly at the sodden splinters drifting
past him. The fog rolled in.

[Marketing Director to Editorial team, MEMO: any chance of getting Craig
Thomas instead ?]"



On Thu Oct 19, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>That makes sense.  When I read a story where the author gets the computer details right, at the very least the missing mistakes don't distract me from the story and at best I actually enjoy finding a writer who took the trouble.  I read one of those just last week, now if I can just remember whose ... oh, I'll bet it was Twice Shy by Dick Francis.  And I remember grimacing at some of the computer concepts attempted in the beginning of The Hunt for Red October, although in the end I raved over it.

>(I'd told my librarian I'd been caught up in submarine stories lately, and she recommended THfRO.  I came back raving, as I said, and she told me "Yeah, that books been kind of a sleeper; it's been around for about two years and nobody's noticed it, but suddenly it's getting attention".  After that I read all the Tom-Clancy stories, but within a few months I had to start getting on a waiting list.

>Max, if Grisham were already an adored favorite I might not want to know—or maybe I would—but as it is I'd rather hear the facts than revere the author:  Care to let me in on one or three of the fatal legal-procedure flaws?  (I have a private bet with myself that one of them might be the bit in The Rainmaker where the insurance company "complied" with the discovery requirements by handing over unintelligible computer reports several feet thick, and during the trial the lawyer handed the same printout to an executive of the corporate defendant on the witness stand and asked him several questions based on that report, which the executive of course couldn't answer.  I thought it was a lovely move at the time, but later I decided it's probably an old trick and therefore no longer used.)

>On Thu Oct 19, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>If, like me, you are a lawyer then the plot holes in Grisham are fatal.

>>Clancy is like George Martin, just dense enough to keep my attention without requiring real thought.

>>On Wed Oct 18, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>Funny—I can't recall a Tom-Clancy movie that satisfied me, certainly including Hunt for Red October.  I probably would have liked it better had the book not spoiled me for the movie.

>>>I used to think the problem was simply that books always spoil me for the movie, but I've found a few exceptions.  Mostly when movies change the plot, I get all chuffed about it.  I can live with Liv Tyler as an elf, but that whole added bit with Strider falling off a cliff seemed like a stupidly unnecessary embellishment to me—and I was wroth, very wroth when Faramir dragged Frodo and Sam all the way back to Osgiliath before finally releasing him with that fatuous line "I think at last we understand each other, Frodo Baggins".  The recent attempts at Narnia stories I accorded one horrified look and then turned away in disgust.  And so on.

>>>But except for a few movies that clung closely to the book (for example Where Eagles Dare and the Harry-Potter series), the ones I enjoyed seem to be where the plots changed so much it was almost a different story.  Jaws wasn't much like the book, but they made a good (different) story out of it.  Likewise Jurassic Park.

>>>I'll risk the pedantry just long enough to ask: David Niven good or bad?  Oh, wait, Larry Niven!  Yes, I'm always getting those two turned around; sorry about that.

>>>On Wed Oct 18, NiceRedTrousers wrote
>>>------------------------------------
>>>>The thought of David Niven and Jerry Pournelle collaborating made me chuckle: "The Moon's a Balloon" with added Moties.
>>>>Larry Niven on the other hand...but I'm being pedantic - sorry!

>>>>I do like Niven and Pournelle, and I agree about Heinlein.  When I was devouring his books in my teens I'd read anything, even if I did struggle a bit with Stranger in a Strange Land and some of his later works.

>>>>I'm a big Neal Stephenson fan - Cryptonomicon, The Baroque Cycle (great for history buffs), but I have to grind through some of his more recent stuff.

>>>>I can't say I've read any John Grisham.  I think the marketing of the blockbuster films may have put me off, but then it didn't put me off Tom Clancy so maybe I should give him a go.

>>>>On Tue Oct 17, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>>--------------------------------
>>>>>We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

>>>>>Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

>>>>>In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

>>>>>With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message 50e5a913p13-10154-1185-07.htm, number 128206, was posted on Fri Oct 20 at 19:45:11
Neson’s chelengk recreated

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Maev Kennedy: One of Admiral Lord Nelson’s most treasured possessions, which must have provoked stifled giggles when he switched on the clockwork mechanism and the great diamond in his hat rotated, has been recreated from the original designs more than half a century after it was stolen. The replica jewel – so delicate it needed emergency overnight repairs before the display – will be at the National Museum of the Royal Navy in Portsmouth Dockyard from 21 October – Trafalgar Day.

It will be shown beside a black felt cocked hat, identical to those in which Nelson wore it, newly made by the admiral’s hatters, Lock & Co, which still keep his measurements in their London workshops. The Chelengk, a plume of more than 300 diamonds, was presented by Sultan Selim III of Turkey after Nelson’s victory at the Battle of the Nile in 1798. It was reputedly taken from his turban and said to be the first such decoration presented to a non-Muslim . .

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/20/lord-admiral-horatio-nelson-rotating-gems-chelengk-recreated-decades-after-original-stol


Message aee38da600A-10155-570-07.htm, number 128207, was posted on Sat Oct 21 at 09:29:51
"....my own house may be unswept, but it IS my house...."

Hoyden


Madrid to impose control over Catalonia?

www.nbcnews.com/news/world/spain-s-pm-rajoy-removes-catalonia-leader-will-call-regional-n812921


Message 4747f4808HW-10155-647+1a.htm, number 128208, was posted on Sat Oct 21 at 10:47:30
in reply to c61740a78YV-10154-845+1b.htm

Brava!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Can you claim credit for this, Jan, or did you find it somewhere?

On Fri Oct 20, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>"That well known publication, the London Literary Review, today carries
>an item and extract on the new book.

>"Due to other writing commitments, Patrick O'Brian has engaged his close
>friend Tom Clancy to ghost-write his next book. An extract is printed below.
>At first this may seem an unlikely pairing; it dates back to a review by
>Mr.O'Brian of Mr. Clancy's book 'The Sum of All Fears', at which Clancy took
>offence and called his elderly fellow author out for a duel. This was settled
>by each carrying his trademark weapon - an antique silver-handled flintlock
>pistol for O'Brian, and a laser-guided anti-tank bazooka with computerised
>wind-compensation and terrain-following guidance system for Clancy (both
>obtained by mail-order from Sears). The duel resulted in minor flesh wounds
>for both and a rather singed appearance to O'Brian's hair, at which point
>honour was satisfied and a firm friendship ensued. We are honoured to print a
>small part of the resulting book."

>*** NORTH ATLANTIC, 0900 ZULU, 13 DECEMBER 1803

>In the grey cold fog, the silent, sleek, deadly hull of the HMS Stealthy
>cut through the waters. On her quarterdeck Jack Aubrey peered about him
>through the mist.

>"What have we got up, Tom ?"

>"Sir, I have two lookouts at Combat Mast Patrol on the fore and main
>crosstrees, and two midshipmen spotted on the deck at Plus Five readiness
>with orders for the tops."

>"Get 'em up, Mr. Pullings"

>At the blast of a whistle, deckhands rushed up to the mids, snatched away
>their coffee cups, rammed hard round hats and small silvery spectacles
>designed by Stephen on their heads, and stood back. The midshipmen twirled
>their
>forefingers and gave a thumbs-up, a crewman raised his right arm, and two
>burly Able Seamen picked up the reefers and launched them at the ratlines.
>They swarmed upwards.

>"They're off, Sir."

>"Very good, Tom."

>A short while later there came a shout.

>"Conn, Masthead: one sail, bearing two-five-zero, range four, closing.
>Topsails only."

>"Evasive, Mr. Pullings."

>A short while later, they were ghosting along behind the other vessel,
>murky in the fog.

>"Tom, I believe we may... - er, why is Mr. Martin shouting 'Call the
>ball' at that bird ?"

>"Truth to tell, Sir, I'm not entirely sure."

>They watched with puzzled frowns as the Revd. Martin dropped his red and
>green lanterns and screamed "Wave off! Wave off!" at a small fat quail gliding
>down towards the deck. It clipped the taffrail, tripped nose down onto the
>deck and skidded forward to collide with Jack's feet, smoking gently. Martin
>grabbed it, took a roll of paper off its leg, and gave it to Jack before
>hurrying downstairs with the bird, comforting it. The paper was labelled
>"Admiralty Mk.IIIA Quail-Type Long-Range Communications Asset, HM Govt
>Property"
>and was crammed with coded gibberish. Jack shook his head resignedly and took
>it
>below. Damned newfangled devices.

>As he entered his cabin an arm shot round his neck and squeezed his
>windpipe, and an uncouth voice breathed in his ear:

>"I can break your spine in three places from here with my left kneecap.
>The desk is booby-trapped, I know 15 martial arts, I've just poured
>gunpowder down your shirt and I can light a match with my bare teeth. You can
>call
>me Clark - John Clark. It's not my real name, but you'll be dead before you
>find out."

>"Look - for God's sake, Killick."

>"Oh. Beg parding, Cap'n. I was just guarding these here wicked private papers,
>and I didn't knows it was you."

>"Christ. Well, here's another one. Take it down to my clerk, and if I
>catch you at my Madeira again..."

>There came another shout from above. The ship in front was heeling to
>starboard unexpectedly - a French manoeuvre known to the Royal Navy as 'Crazy
>Yves'. Jack rushed on deck, shouting 'back the foretopsail!'.

>"Conn, Masthead: we're cavitating - the sails are flapping! He can hear
>us!"

>A shot boomed out from in front. It had been meant as a warning, but a
>ball came skipping over the water, ricocheted off a tall wave, and smashed
>Jack's quarter-gallery to smithereens. He looked down mournfully at the
>remains
>of his place of ease drifting away in the swell, reflecting that only that
>morning he'd taken half a dozen of the Doctor's special blue pills. That did
>it.

>"Bonden, stand by to establish contact with submarine assets," he barked.
>"Tom, in the Doctor's absence please ask Mr. Martin to arm the ASLOTH
>launcher."

>Bonden ran below and leaned out of a gunport. Below him the Doctor's wooden
>submersible, copied after his earlier model used in the Red Sea, bobbed
>a few feet under the surface. Above him he heard the cry, "Bonden, activate
>the Ultra Low Frequency underwater communications device". He promptly
>picked up a bargepole and rapped smartly three times on the top of the wooden
>diving
>bell.

>Inside, Stephen and Padeen heard the thump - thump - thump. "Is there to be
>no peace in this miserable war-torn world ?" fumed Stephen, flinging aside the
>squid he'd been examining. There was a sad wet squelch. "Very well - hand me
>that cursed book", He rifled through His Majesty's Admiralty's General
>Printed Instructions on the Deployment of Underwater Vehicles, 3rd Edition.
>"Three taps - STAND OUT FROM UNDER, WE'RE SINKING - no, no, wrong page -
>ah, here we are: BY THE AUTHORITY INVESTED IN ME BY THEIR LORDSHIPS, I DO
>REQUIRE AND DIRECT YOU TO CONDUCT UNRESTRICTED WARFARE AGAINST ALL
>SURFACE TARGETS IN VICINITY, OR ANSWER TO THE CONTRARY AT YOUR PERIL. RULES OF
>ENGAGEMENT OPTION BRAVO. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. - good heavens, all that
>from three taps, for all love ?"

>"The English are a verbose race, so they are." replied Padeen in his native
>fluent Gaelic, climbing on to his geared pedals. Outside a propellor
>began to turn, and they moved off. Operation SCREAMING JELLYFISH was underway.

>Back on deck, Jack brought the ship about and gave the order to fire.
>His Gunner had been a gunner's mate under him on board the old Worcester,
>and had unfortunately been deeply impressed by the firework powder that Jack
>had used for practice firing. Nowadays he had to be constantly checked
>from loading the ship with flares, flying rockets, sparklers, and
>Catherine wheels. The results of his last run ashore now became sadly apparent
>as
>the guns went off and the air between the two ships filled with spinning,
>whistling, dazzling projectiles in assorted colours; great gushes and
>fountains
>of sparks; shots that flew up to a great height and then divided into
>countless lovely flames, and one that exploded into hundreds of tiny flares on
>cute little parachutes. The Gunner giggled and rolled around on the deck,
>chuckling and sucking his thumb. His mate hurried him off to feed him
>more of his regular dried herb pills.

>Meanwhile, Martin had finished his preparations. He patted the hollow
>projectile, and watched as it was loaded into a stumpy gun on the
>forecastle. There was a loud bang, and the secret weapon was on its way. It
>soared
>out over the water. As it reached its apogee, the protective shroud fell
>away and the warhead got its first view of the enemy. Wearing little
>protective
>goggles, it peered around as its canvas canopy opened. The sloth settled
>gently on the deck, unseen, and began to gnaw away at the rigging.

>Jack stood on his quarterdeck and gazed through his telescope as his elite
>forces did their worst. The enemy's masts tumbled in a confusion of
>sails as the sloth triumphed. The Gunner's special unauthorised flare-shower
>set
>the whole mass on fire. Finally the diving bell with its specially adapted
>hull-mounted surgical bone-drill sent the lot bubbling into the sea. The
>Gunner's last shot detonated in a carefully timed shower of delayed flares,
>leaving the words THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING TO THE SHOW HAPPY GUY FAWKES DAY
>GOD SAVE
>THE KING AND PARLIAMENT hanging in letters of fire above the wreckage.

>The clerk came running up on deck, waving his decoded message. "To Captn
>Stealthy comma at sea stop", it read. "Be advised my brother Heneage in
>your immediate area comma carrying despatches for you stop convey my regards
>Doctor Maturin stop Melville comma FstSeaLd stop".

>"Er..." said Jack, looking uncertainly at the sodden splinters drifting
>past him. The fog rolled in.

>[Marketing Director to Editorial team, MEMO: any chance of getting Craig
>Thomas instead ?]"


Message c61740a78YV-10155-833+1a.htm, number 128209, was posted on Sat Oct 21 at 13:52:45
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10155-647+1a.htm

Not I

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


I only re-post it on occasion.  It comes from here:www.hmssurprise.org/hunt-red-cacafuego


On Sat Oct 21, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Can you claim credit for this, Jan, or did you find it somewhere?

>On Fri Oct 20, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>"That well known publication, the London Literary Review, today carries
>>an item and extract on the new book.

>>"Due to other writing commitments, Patrick O'Brian has engaged his close
>>friend Tom Clancy to ghost-write his next book. An extract is printed below.
>>At first this may seem an unlikely pairing; it dates back to a review by
>>Mr.O'Brian of Mr. Clancy's book 'The Sum of All Fears', at which Clancy took
>>offence and called his elderly fellow author out for a duel. This was settled
>>by each carrying his trademark weapon - an antique silver-handled flintlock
>>pistol for O'Brian, and a laser-guided anti-tank bazooka with computerised
>>wind-compensation and terrain-following guidance system for Clancy (both
>>obtained by mail-order from Sears). The duel resulted in minor flesh wounds
>>for both and a rather singed appearance to O'Brian's hair, at which point
>>honour was satisfied and a firm friendship ensued. We are honoured to print a
>>small part of the resulting book."

>>*** NORTH ATLANTIC, 0900 ZULU, 13 DECEMBER 1803

>>In the grey cold fog, the silent, sleek, deadly hull of the HMS Stealthy
>>cut through the waters. On her quarterdeck Jack Aubrey peered about him
>>through the mist.

>>"What have we got up, Tom ?"

>>"Sir, I have two lookouts at Combat Mast Patrol on the fore and main
>>crosstrees, and two midshipmen spotted on the deck at Plus Five readiness
>>with orders for the tops."

>>"Get 'em up, Mr. Pullings"

>>At the blast of a whistle, deckhands rushed up to the mids, snatched away
>>their coffee cups, rammed hard round hats and small silvery spectacles
>>designed by Stephen on their heads, and stood back. The midshipmen twirled
>>their
>>forefingers and gave a thumbs-up, a crewman raised his right arm, and two
>>burly Able Seamen picked up the reefers and launched them at the ratlines.
>>They swarmed upwards.

>>"They're off, Sir."

>>"Very good, Tom."

>>A short while later there came a shout.

>>"Conn, Masthead: one sail, bearing two-five-zero, range four, closing.
>>Topsails only."

>>"Evasive, Mr. Pullings."

>>A short while later, they were ghosting along behind the other vessel,
>>murky in the fog.

>>"Tom, I believe we may... - er, why is Mr. Martin shouting 'Call the
>>ball' at that bird ?"

>>"Truth to tell, Sir, I'm not entirely sure."

>>They watched with puzzled frowns as the Revd. Martin dropped his red and
>>green lanterns and screamed "Wave off! Wave off!" at a small fat quail gliding
>>down towards the deck. It clipped the taffrail, tripped nose down onto the
>>deck and skidded forward to collide with Jack's feet, smoking gently. Martin
>>grabbed it, took a roll of paper off its leg, and gave it to Jack before
>>hurrying downstairs with the bird, comforting it. The paper was labelled
>>"Admiralty Mk.IIIA Quail-Type Long-Range Communications Asset, HM Govt
>>Property"
>>and was crammed with coded gibberish. Jack shook his head resignedly and took
>>it
>>below. Damned newfangled devices.

>>As he entered his cabin an arm shot round his neck and squeezed his
>>windpipe, and an uncouth voice breathed in his ear:

>>"I can break your spine in three places from here with my left kneecap.
>>The desk is booby-trapped, I know 15 martial arts, I've just poured
>>gunpowder down your shirt and I can light a match with my bare teeth. You can
>>call
>>me Clark - John Clark. It's not my real name, but you'll be dead before you
>>find out."

>>"Look - for God's sake, Killick."

>>"Oh. Beg parding, Cap'n. I was just guarding these here wicked private papers,
>>and I didn't knows it was you."

>>"Christ. Well, here's another one. Take it down to my clerk, and if I
>>catch you at my Madeira again..."

>>There came another shout from above. The ship in front was heeling to
>>starboard unexpectedly - a French manoeuvre known to the Royal Navy as 'Crazy
>>Yves'. Jack rushed on deck, shouting 'back the foretopsail!'.

>>"Conn, Masthead: we're cavitating - the sails are flapping! He can hear
>>us!"

>>A shot boomed out from in front. It had been meant as a warning, but a
>>ball came skipping over the water, ricocheted off a tall wave, and smashed
>>Jack's quarter-gallery to smithereens. He looked down mournfully at the
>>remains
>>of his place of ease drifting away in the swell, reflecting that only that
>>morning he'd taken half a dozen of the Doctor's special blue pills. That did
>>it.

>>"Bonden, stand by to establish contact with submarine assets," he barked.
>>"Tom, in the Doctor's absence please ask Mr. Martin to arm the ASLOTH
>>launcher."

>>Bonden ran below and leaned out of a gunport. Below him the Doctor's wooden
>>submersible, copied after his earlier model used in the Red Sea, bobbed
>>a few feet under the surface. Above him he heard the cry, "Bonden, activate
>>the Ultra Low Frequency underwater communications device". He promptly
>>picked up a bargepole and rapped smartly three times on the top of the wooden
>>diving
>>bell.

>>Inside, Stephen and Padeen heard the thump - thump - thump. "Is there to be
>>no peace in this miserable war-torn world ?" fumed Stephen, flinging aside the
>>squid he'd been examining. There was a sad wet squelch. "Very well - hand me
>>that cursed book", He rifled through His Majesty's Admiralty's General
>>Printed Instructions on the Deployment of Underwater Vehicles, 3rd Edition.
>>"Three taps - STAND OUT FROM UNDER, WE'RE SINKING - no, no, wrong page -
>>ah, here we are: BY THE AUTHORITY INVESTED IN ME BY THEIR LORDSHIPS, I DO
>>REQUIRE AND DIRECT YOU TO CONDUCT UNRESTRICTED WARFARE AGAINST ALL
>>SURFACE TARGETS IN VICINITY, OR ANSWER TO THE CONTRARY AT YOUR PERIL. RULES OF
>>ENGAGEMENT OPTION BRAVO. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. - good heavens, all that
>>from three taps, for all love ?"

>>"The English are a verbose race, so they are." replied Padeen in his native
>>fluent Gaelic, climbing on to his geared pedals. Outside a propellor
>>began to turn, and they moved off. Operation SCREAMING JELLYFISH was underway.

>>Back on deck, Jack brought the ship about and gave the order to fire.
>>His Gunner had been a gunner's mate under him on board the old Worcester,
>>and had unfortunately been deeply impressed by the firework powder that Jack
>>had used for practice firing. Nowadays he had to be constantly checked
>>from loading the ship with flares, flying rockets, sparklers, and
>>Catherine wheels. The results of his last run ashore now became sadly apparent
>>as
>>the guns went off and the air between the two ships filled with spinning,
>>whistling, dazzling projectiles in assorted colours; great gushes and
>>fountains
>>of sparks; shots that flew up to a great height and then divided into
>>countless lovely flames, and one that exploded into hundreds of tiny flares on
>>cute little parachutes. The Gunner giggled and rolled around on the deck,
>>chuckling and sucking his thumb. His mate hurried him off to feed him
>>more of his regular dried herb pills.

>>Meanwhile, Martin had finished his preparations. He patted the hollow
>>projectile, and watched as it was loaded into a stumpy gun on the
>>forecastle. There was a loud bang, and the secret weapon was on its way. It
>>soared
>>out over the water. As it reached its apogee, the protective shroud fell
>>away and the warhead got its first view of the enemy. Wearing little
>>protective
>>goggles, it peered around as its canvas canopy opened. The sloth settled
>>gently on the deck, unseen, and began to gnaw away at the rigging.

>>Jack stood on his quarterdeck and gazed through his telescope as his elite
>>forces did their worst. The enemy's masts tumbled in a confusion of
>>sails as the sloth triumphed. The Gunner's special unauthorised flare-shower
>>set
>>the whole mass on fire. Finally the diving bell with its specially adapted
>>hull-mounted surgical bone-drill sent the lot bubbling into the sea. The
>>Gunner's last shot detonated in a carefully timed shower of delayed flares,
>>leaving the words THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING TO THE SHOW HAPPY GUY FAWKES DAY
>>GOD SAVE
>>THE KING AND PARLIAMENT hanging in letters of fire above the wreckage.

>>The clerk came running up on deck, waving his decoded message. "To Captn
>>Stealthy comma at sea stop", it read. "Be advised my brother Heneage in
>>your immediate area comma carrying despatches for you stop convey my regards
>>Doctor Maturin stop Melville comma FstSeaLd stop".

>>"Er..." said Jack, looking uncertainly at the sodden splinters drifting
>>past him. The fog rolled in.

>>[Marketing Director to Editorial team, MEMO: any chance of getting Craig
>>Thomas instead ?]"


Message 6b4d5575wd5-10156-769-90.htm, number 128210, was posted on Sun Oct 22 at 12:48:59
Across the ladder

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


This would have been beyond Stephen...me too!

m.facebook.com/home.php


Message 6b4d5575wd5-10156-769+07.htm, number 128210, was edited on Sun Oct 22 at 13:10:13
and replaces message 6b4d5575wd5-10156-769-90.htm

Oops...sorry! No message

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Uh...no message

[ This message was edited on Sun Oct 22 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-10159-645+52.htm, number 128211, was posted on Wed Oct 25 at 10:45:33
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10151-817-90.htm

Re: The Butchering Art by Lindsey Fitzharris – grisly medicine

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Finally got around to reading this.  It is no slam at Chrístõ, and may not be at the author, but I think whoever wrote that subtitle exaggerates.  Surgery is still, by definition, cutting and sawing, still as "brutal" and "grisly" as before Lister's discovery; it's emotion, not reason, that leads to writing that he "brought centuries of savagery, sawing and gangrene to an end".

On Tue Oct 17, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>'In The Butchering Art, historian Lindsey Fitzharris recreates a critical turning point in the history of medicine, when Joseph Lister transformed surgery from a brutal, harrowing practice to the safe, vaunted profession we know today.'
>www.penguin.co.nz/books/the-butchering-art-joseph-listers-quest-to-transform-the-brutal-world-of-victorian-medicine-97

>'Review: The Butchering Art: Joseph Lister’s Quest to Transform the Grisly World of Victorian Medicine – Lindsey Fitzharris’s story of Lister’s battle to introduce hygiene to the operating theatre makes compelling reading'
>www.theguardian.com/books/2017/oct/09/butchering-art-review-joseph-listers-quest-grisly-world-victorian-medicine-lin

>Profile: www.theguardian.com/books/2017/oct/12/the-butchering-art-by-lindsey-fitzharris-review
>www.drlindseyfitzharris.com/

>Dr Lindsey Fitzharris will be touring the US from October 17th to November 5th, beginning at the Mutter Museum in Philadelphia and ending at Coney Island in New York City. Go to www.drlindseyfitzharris.com/ to see full schedule.


Message 50e5a913p13-10160-370-90.htm, number 128212, was posted on Thu Oct 26 at 06:10:16
The greatest Catalan of all in British history

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘Sir, The recent erudite correspondence* concerning the importance of Catalans in British history inexplicably omits the greatest of all: Dr Stephen Maturin, the British Navy surgeon, natural philosopher, intelligence agent and accomplished cellist, born of an illicit liaison between a Catalan lady and an Irish soldier. Dr Maturin and his “personal friend” Captain Jack Aubrey were instrumental in maintaining British honour and naval supremacy around the globe through the Napoleonic wars. While thus engaged, they also found time to play violin and cello duets (Corelli being a particular favourite) and engage in multiple affairs of the heart.

Their achievements provided the basis for Patrick O’Brian’s 20 completed volumes (plus one published posthumously) — among the greatest seafaring novels ever written.

I hope you will find space to correct this serious omission.’

From Malcolm Harker, Seattle, WA, US, October 25

https://www.ft.com/content/d0d43aae-b81b-11e7-8c12-5661783e5589
………………….

* An independent Catalonia is in Britain’s best interests
From Charles Drace-Francis, St Monans, Fife, UK, October 17
https://www.ft.com/content/4c3581aa-b261-11e7-a398-73d59db9e399

Episodes in Catalan history were not so simple
From David Rodríguez Vega, London, UK, October 23, 2017
https://www.ft.com/content/dfe07eda-b588-11e7-aa26-bb002965bce8


Message 4747f4808HW-10164-964-30.htm, number 128213, was posted on Mon Oct 30 at 16:06:37
So did they mean it when they declared themselves independent?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


From an NPR article: "On Monday morning, Catalan officials showed up at their offices — and, in some cases, were escorted out by police just minutes later."

I must not opine on whether Catalunya should be independent of Spain; I'm bigoted by being a Stephen-Maturin fan.  But it seems to me that if you declare your independence and then won't resort to violence to back it up, then your so-called "declaration" was always going to be meaningless.  Here come some Catalan public servants to put in a day at the office in defiance of the Spanish orders, and "were escorted out by police".  Were there no Catalan officials, including Catalan police, who would prevent or at least attempt to prevent that?  If so, then the only side willing to employ force is the automatic winner—and all the posturing in the months leading up to last week's declaration of independence was just a hopeful bluff that got called.  Or am I missing something?

---

Separate question on this piece of the article: "On Sunday, about 300,000 pro-Spain supporters filled the capital city's streets — it was one of biggest shows of force by the so-called silent majority," Benavides reports. "Two people were allegedly injured before and after the protests as ultra-right groups joined the demonstration."

As a member of what is usually called the Right, myself, I'm used to "right" being offered as a condemnation, and I suppose it was meant so in this case too.  But it isn't clear to me whether "ultra-right" groups would be in favor of Catalonian independence or Spanish unity.  In the American rebellion against England it was the leftists who were for independence and the right who resisted it.  So were the ultra-right groups in this case those who were demonstrating for Spain?


Message 4747f4808HW-10164-964+1e.htm, number 128213, was edited on Wed Nov 1 at 09:29:43
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-10164-964-30.htm

So did they mean it when they declared themselves independent?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


From an NPR article: "On Monday morning, Catalan officials showed up at their offices — and, in some cases, were escorted out by police just minutes later."

I must not opine on whether Catalunya should be independent of Spain; my only datum is the opinion of Stephen Maturin.  But it seems to me that if you declare your independence and then won't resort to violence to back it up, then your so-called "declaration" was always going to be meaningless.  Here come some Catalan public servants to put in a day at the office in defiance of the Spanish orders, and "were escorted out by police".  Were there no Catalan officials, including Catalan police, who would prevent or at least attempt to prevent that?  If so, then the only side willing to employ force is the automatic winner—and all the posturing in the months leading up to last week's declaration of independence was just a hopeful bluff that got called.  Or am I missing something?

---

Separate question on this piece of the article: "On Sunday, about 300,000 pro-Spain supporters filled the capital city's streets — it was one of biggest shows of force by the so-called silent majority," Benavides reports. "Two people were allegedly injured before and after the protests as ultra-right groups joined the demonstration."

As a member of what is usually called the Right, myself, I'm used to "right" being offered as a condemnation, and I suppose it was meant so in this case too.  But it isn't clear to me whether "ultra-right" groups would be in favor of Catalonian independence or Spanish unity.  In the American rebellion against England it was the leftists who were for independence and the right who resisted it.  So I'm guessing the "ultra-right" groups in this case were demonstrating for Spain, but I'm not sure.  Anybody know?

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 1 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-10164-964+07.htm, number 128213, was edited on Wed Nov 1 at 09:30:18
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-10164-964+1e.htm

So did they mean it when they declared themselves independent?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


From an NPR article: "On Monday morning, Catalan officials showed up at their offices — and, in some cases, were escorted out by police just minutes later."

I must not opine on whether Catalunya should be independent of Spain; my only datum is the desire of Stephen Maturin.  But it seems to me that if you declare your independence and then won't resort to violence to back it up, then your so-called "declaration" was always going to be meaningless.  Here come some Catalan public servants to put in a day at the office in defiance of the Spanish orders, and "were escorted out by police".  Were there no Catalan officials, including Catalan police, who would prevent or at least attempt to prevent that?  If so, then the only side willing to employ force is the automatic winner—and all the posturing in the months leading up to last week's declaration of independence was just a hopeful bluff that got called.  Or am I missing something?

---

Separate question on this piece of the article: "On Sunday, about 300,000 pro-Spain supporters filled the capital city's streets — it was one of biggest shows of force by the so-called silent majority," Benavides reports. "Two people were allegedly injured before and after the protests as ultra-right groups joined the demonstration."

As a member of what is usually called the Right, myself, I'm used to "right" being offered as a condemnation, and I suppose it was meant so in this case too.  But it isn't clear to me whether "ultra-right" groups would be in favor of Catalonian independence or Spanish unity.  In the American rebellion against England it was the leftists who were for independence and the right who resisted it.  So I'm guessing the "ultra-right" groups in this case were demonstrating for Spain, but I'm not sure.  Anybody know?

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 1 by the author ]


Message 6cadb064gpf-10166-806+05.htm, number 128214, was posted on Wed Nov 1 at 13:26:33
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10164-964+07.htm

Re: So did they mean it when they declared themselves independent?

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I'm not up at all on what's going on over there, Bob, but I honour those Catalan leaders for not opting for violence. I imagine it was calculated that way. As in, 'we will go this far, but not farther, because we don't want blood on our hands. Let the other side cross that moral divide if they wish.'
On the other hand, it would not surprise me at all to find out there is a 'radical' wing of the Catalan independence movement, building bombs in a basement somewhere. God help the innocent victims.

Three years ago I landed in the middle of an independence demonstration in Barcelona. The turnout was huge, and the mood was celebratory - not angry at all. It was a big happy party. I got the impression people were out to make a point, not looking for war.
I asked a bartender a couple of nights later what it was all about. She hesitated, then said, 'It's complicated,' which I thought a good start to an answer, but she got distracted by thirsty customers watching the Barcelona vs. Bilbao game and never finished her explanation.



On Wed Nov 1, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>From an NPR article: "On Monday morning, Catalan officials showed up at their offices — and, in some cases, were escorted out by police just minutes later."

>I must not opine on whether Catalunya should be independent of Spain; my only datum is the desire of Stephen Maturin.  But it seems to me that if you declare your independence and then won't resort to violence to back it up, then your so-called "declaration" was always going to be meaningless.  Here come some Catalan public servants to put in a day at the office in defiance of the Spanish orders, and "were escorted out by police".  Were there no Catalan officials, including Catalan police, who would prevent or at least attempt to prevent that?  If so, then the only side willing to employ force is the automatic winner—and all the posturing in the months leading up to last week's declaration of independence was just a hopeful bluff that got called.  Or am I missing something?

>---

>Separate question on this piece of the article: "On Sunday, about 300,000 pro-Spain supporters filled the capital city's streets — it was one of biggest shows of force by the so-called silent majority," Benavides reports. "Two people were allegedly injured before and after the protests as ultra-right groups joined the demonstration."

>As a member of what is usually called the Right, myself, I'm used to "right" being offered as a condemnation, and I suppose it was meant so in this case too.  But it isn't clear to me whether "ultra-right" groups would be in favor of Catalonian independence or Spanish unity.  In the American rebellion against England it was the leftists who were for independence and the right who resisted it.  So I'm guessing the "ultra-right" groups in this case were demonstrating for Spain, but I'm not sure.  Anybody know?


Message 4747f4808HW-10167-695+04.htm, number 128215, was posted on Thu Nov 2 at 11:34:41
in reply to 6cadb064gpf-10166-806+05.htm

Re^2: So did they mean it when they declared themselves independent?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I wondered whether my use of the word "violence" would attract unfavorable attention, but I decided to leave it in anyway.  You can say force is violence, or at the very least force is the threat of violence (depends on whether you would say that the police forcibly escorting out the Catalan office workers counted as "violence".)  However you figure it, it seems to me that there was never any way for Catalonia to be independent of Spain without actual force being applied.  It was on purpose that I likened it to America's rebellion against Britain:  Blood had to be shed for our revolution to succeed, and without it the Catalan declaration of independence is a bit of hopeful poetry without practical meaning.

So it seems to me, at least, though events may prove me wrong.  Perhaps the most amazing political miracle of the previous century is the breakup of the Soviet Union without warfare.  Could something similar happen here?

Ask it the other way around:  If the goal of Catalonian independence from Spain cannot be achieved without violence, is it right to surrender the former in order to avoid the latter?  I don't know, but as a general principle I do know that violence is not the worst possible thing, to be avoided at all cost.

On Wed Nov 1, Joe McWilliams wrote
----------------------------------
>I'm not up at all on what's going on over there, Bob, but I honour those Catalan leaders for not opting for violence. I imagine it was calculated that way. As in, 'we will go this far, but not farther, because we don't want blood on our hands. Let the other side cross that moral divide if they wish.'

>On the other hand, it would not surprise me at all to find out there is a 'radical' wing of the Catalan independence movement, building bombs in a basement somewhere. God help the innocent victims.

>Three years ago I landed in the middle of an independence demonstration in Barcelona. The turnout was huge, and the mood was celebratory - not angry at all. It was a big happy party. I got the impression people were out to make a point, not looking for war.

>I asked a bartender a couple of nights later what it was all about. She hesitated, then said, 'It's complicated,' which I thought a good start to an answer, but she got distracted by thirsty customers watching the Barcelona vs. Bilbao game and never finished her explanation.

>On Wed Nov 1, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>From an NPR article: "On Monday morning, Catalan officials showed up at their offices — and, in some cases, were escorted out by police just minutes later."

>>I must not opine on whether Catalunya should be independent of Spain; my only datum is the desire of Stephen Maturin.  But it seems to me that if you declare your independence and then won't resort to violence to back it up, then your so-called "declaration" was always going to be meaningless.  Here come some Catalan public servants to put in a day at the office in defiance of the Spanish orders, and "were escorted out by police".  Were there no Catalan officials, including Catalan police, who would prevent or at least attempt to prevent that?  If so, then the only side willing to employ force is the automatic winner—and all the posturing in the months leading up to last week's declaration of independence was just a hopeful bluff that got called.  Or am I missing something?

>>---

>>Separate question on this piece of the article: "On Sunday, about 300,000 pro-Spain supporters filled the capital city's streets — it was one of biggest shows of force by the so-called silent majority," Benavides reports. "Two people were allegedly injured before and after the protests as ultra-right groups joined the demonstration."

>>As a member of what is usually called the Right, myself, I'm used to "right" being offered as a condemnation, and I suppose it was meant so in this case too.  But it isn't clear to me whether "ultra-right" groups would be in favor of Catalonian independence or Spanish unity.  In the American rebellion against England it was the leftists who were for independence and the right who resisted it.  So I'm guessing the "ultra-right" groups in this case were demonstrating for Spain, but I'm not sure.  Anybody know?


Message aeda85cb00A-10168-446-07.htm, number 128216, was posted on Fri Nov 3 at 07:25:36
“Polytropos“ The first translation of the “Odyssey” into English by a woman.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/magazine/t

Message aeda85cb00A-10168-620-07.htm, number 128217, was posted on Fri Nov 3 at 10:19:50
Russia hacks GPS??

Hoyden


money.cnn.com/2017/11/03/technology/gps-spoofing-russia/index.html

Message 50e5a913p13-10168-865-90.htm, number 128218, was posted on Fri Nov 3 at 14:25:35
'Catalonia: civil disobedience and where the secession movement goes now'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This is a response to BB below which will vanish on Monday:

This essay by (I guess) a Catalan academic workingin Britain describes the rise of civil dispoedience:

. . the Plataforma de Afectados por la Hipoteca or Platform for the Mortgage-Affected (PAH). The outgoing disobedient Catalan government is a peculiar mix of anti-austerity parties, which have supported the PAH’s fight for people’s housing rights, and the Catalan establishment party that has generally opposed it.

The PAH was founded in Barcelona in 2009 in the aftermath of the financial crisis, which burst the Spanish housing bubble . . over the last eight years, the PAH has made civil disobedience acceptable to a large part of the Catalan population.

Nobody disputes that the Spanish law and constitution leave no room for secession. For the Spanish government, the buck stops with the constitution (though not when it comes to housing apparently). For the majority of Catalans, who want a proper referendum, this position lacks legitimacy because they see their right to decide their future as a higher form of morality and justice than the constitution. For many observers outside of Spain, a legal and orderly referendum also seems like a reasonable solution.

. . So the situation is ripe for widespread civil disobedience against the Spanish government in Catalonia. Unilateral declarations of independence, without a proper referendum, are unlikely to gain legitimacy for the Catalan government internationally. But, equally, more repression from the central government will likely reduce its legitimacy

Catalan institutions may now become laboratories for how to disobey state policies. For many Catalans, it will mean a form of resisting occupation. And if this disobedience remains civil and non-violent, it could well win the battle for international legitimacy, too.’

https://theconversation.com/catalonia-civil-disobedience-and-where-the-secession-movement-goes-now-86425


Message 50e5a913p13-10168-865+07.htm, number 128218, was edited on Fri Nov 3 at 20:47:01
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10168-865-90.htm

'Catalonia: civil disobedience and where the secession movement goes now'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This is a response to BB below which will vanish on Monday:

This essay by (I guess) a Catalan academic workingin Britain describes the rise of civil disobedience:

' . . The outgoing disobedient Catalan government is a peculiar mix of anti-austerity parties, which have supported the PAH’s (the Plataforma de Afectados por la Hipoteca's = the Platform for the Mortgage-Affected’s  fight for people’s housing rights, while the Catalan establishment parties has generally opposed it.

The PAH was founded in Barcelona in 2009 in the aftermath of the financial crisis, which burst the Spanish housing bubble . . over the last eight years, the PAH has made civil disobedience acceptable to a large part of the Catalan population.

Nobody disputes that the Spanish law and constitution leave no room for secession. For the Spanish government, the buck stops with the constitution (though not when it comes to housing apparently). For the majority of Catalans, who want a proper referendum, this position lacks legitimacy because they see their right to decide their future as a higher form of morality and justice than the constitution. For many observers outside of Spain, a legal and orderly referendum also seems like a reasonable solution.

. . So the situation is ripe for widespread civil disobedience against the Spanish government in Catalonia. Unilateral declarations of independence, without a proper referendum, are unlikely to gain legitimacy for the Catalan government internationally. But, equally, more repression from the central government will likely reduce its legitimacy

Catalan institutions may now become laboratories for how to disobey state policies. For many Catalans, it will mean a form of resisting occupation. And if this disobedience remains civil and non-violent, it could well win the battle for international legitimacy, too.’

theconversation.com/catalonia-civil-disobedience-and-where-the-secession-movement-goes-now-86425

[ This message was edited on Fri Nov 3 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10169-464+06.htm, number 128219, was posted on Sat Nov 4 at 07:43:56
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10168-865+07.htm

Non-violent resistance

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



Message 6242b0b700A-10169-1239+06.htm, number 128220, was posted on Sat Nov 4 at 20:41:30
in reply to aeda85cb00A-10168-446-07.htm

Re: “Polytropos“ The first translation of the “Odyssey” into English by a woman.

YA


Odyssey translated by a woman:

...."Ten years! How many times have I told you to stop and ASK FOR DIRECTIONS."

The End



On Fri Nov 3, Hoyden  wrote
---------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/magazi


Message 47e54da900A-10170-976-07.htm, number 128221, was posted on Sun Nov 5 at 16:16:14
“....unmoored, heading to nowhere, while on deck, fire has broken out....”

Hoyden


“No One Knows What Britain Is Anymore“

nytimes.com/2017/11/04/sunday-review/britain-identity-crisis.html


Message 50e5a913p13-10172-655+05.htm, number 128222, was posted on Tue Nov 7 at 10:55:36
in reply to 47e54da900A-10170-976-07.htm

This is what matters just now

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
and here’s the vocabulary for talking about it:

The PB Cynic’s Dictionary especially complied for the times

A clinic: A place where “addicts” go to, to hide from the media.

A report: What a person who had nothing to with the original events has to present to Parliament and/or the media many years later. See the Savile Inquiry Report.

Abuse of power: Bullying. Soon to be classified as an “addiction”

Addiction: Bad behaviour turned into an “illness”.

An inquiry: A process by which an embarrassing story disappears from public view.

Apology: -
(1) A short form of words by which a person says sorry for behaviour which is “wrong” (see above). Traditionally starts with the 1st person singular and ends with the word “sorry”. In danger of falling into disuse.
(2) A long form of words by which someone appears to apologise while not in fact doing so. The non-apology apology requires focus on the victim’s reaction while also implying that it is both over-egged and may not have happened.

Banter: Amusing social interaction between friends and/or colleagues. Not to be confused with bad or offensive language, which becomes “banter” when someone complains about it.

Code of Conduct: Having some manners.

Inappropriate: Very popular word covering –
(1) Breaches of social etiquette, such as using fish knives to eat steaks.
(2) Language mistakes e.g. the use of “disinterested” to mean “uninterested”.
(3) Behaviour previously described as “wrong” or “illegal” or “criminal”.

Lack of resources: The best reason yet invented for not implementing any difficult recommendations.

Lessons learned: Lessons which are never learned by those who need to learn them.

Recommendations: What you find, if you read that far, in the Appendices to a report.

Sexual harassment: Boorish behaviour, unwanted by the target. Not to be confused with flirtation or courtship. Often perpetrated by people who have not recently looked in a mirror or who have forgotten their age or marital status.

Shame: No known contemporary definition. Last heard of in the 1960’s.

The internet: An efficient way of disseminating porn and cat videos.

The long grass: Where recommendations usually end up. See also “Inquiry”

The time for apologies is over (©Bob Diamond): The time when apologies (see “Apology (1))” should start.

There are many variations of this. Industries where bad behaviour is widespread are fond of adding to their apologies (variant no. (2)) a lengthy reference to all the good people in the industry; see Banking, Parliament, the Police, Journalism.

Whistleblowing: Something which is frequently talked about but rarely done. The equivalent of an “extreme sport” in some professions e.g. medicine, politics, finance.

Witch-hunt: The process of making grown-ups accountable for their behaviour.

Working group: A group of people unable to avoid being tasked with the responsibility of coming up with suggestions as to how recommendations might be implemented.

Wrong: Description of behaviour which is either illegal or known by a majority to fall below widely accepted standards of decency. Implies responsibility by the person doing it. Now in high danger of falling into disuse.

Over to you, now………

[www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/11/06/the-pb-cynics-dictionary-especially-complied-for-the-times/]


Message 50e5a913p13-10173-450+04.htm, number 128223, was posted on Wed Nov 8 at 07:30:45
in reply to 47e54da900A-10170-976-07.htm

Is anybody happy?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


A lot of English people are:

’Personal well-being in the UK: July 2016 to June 2017 - Estimates of personal well-being for the UK and countries of the UK for the year ending June 2017:

1. Main points
Average ratings of life satisfaction, feeling that the things we do in life are worthwhile and happiness have increased slightly in the UK between the years ending June 2016 and 2017.
There was no change in average anxiety ratings in the UK between the years ending June 2016 and 2017.
Improvements in life satisfaction, worthwhile and happiness ratings in the UK were driven by England, the only country where average ratings across these measures improved.
People in Northern Ireland report the highest levels of personal well-being, when compared with the UK average.
This publication is the first to present a full year of personal well-being data since the EU referendum.

2. Statistician’s comment
"Today's figures, the first to be based on a full year of data since the EU referendum, show small increases in how people in the UK rate their life satisfaction, happiness and feelings that the things they do in life are worthwhile. The improvements were driven by England - the only country where quality of life ratings got better over the last year." - Matthew Steel – Office for National Statistics . . ‘

I wonder how many of the New York Times’ readers would agree?

[www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/wellbeing/bulletins/measuringnationalwellbeing/july2016tojune2017]



Message aeda0cd900A-10173-943-07.htm, number 128224, was posted on Wed Nov 8 at 15:42:51
All captains may be “on the beach”; permanently.

Hoyden


Autonomous cars, crewless ships, “what a fascinating modern age we live in.”

www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/robot-ships-will-bring-big-benefits-put-captains-shore-ncna818941


Message 4747f4808HW-10174-800+06.htm, number 128225, was posted on Thu Nov 9 at 13:20:37
in reply to aeda0cd900A-10173-943-07.htm

Never happen.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


It is indeed fascinating.  But I don't envision, even in the long-term theoretical future, a day when all captains will be on the beach—certainly not captains of vessels of war.  I'm guessing a defense of that opinion would be redundant, in this forum, so I won't burden you with it.  But if you disagree, have at me and I'll try to explain.

By the way, Mr Bennington-Castro says "As a result, shipping companies may replace their giant cargo vessels with fleets of smaller, more fuel-efficient boats."  Are smaller vessels more fuel-efficient?  I would have thought the opposite.  Not in MPG/vessel, obviously, but in MPG/cargo ton.  What say the more knowledgeable about that?

On Wed Nov 8, Hoyden wrote
--------------------------
>Autonomous cars, crewless ships, “what a fascinating modern age we live in.”

>www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/robot-ships-will-bring-big-benefits-put-captains-shore-ncna818941


Message 4981ca22cZn-10174-868+06.htm, number 128226, was posted on Thu Nov 9 at 14:28:35
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10174-800+06.htm

Re: Never happen.

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


I reacted in to that statement the same way you did, Bob.  Larger vessels will provide a lower MPG/cargo ton.  Further, larger ships tend to have approximately the same size crews as smaller ships so the labor cost per cargo ton mile will also decrease for larger ships.  The growth of cargo ships over time is ample proof of these facts.


On Thu Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote (snip)
-------------------------------
>By the way, Mr Bennington-Castro says "As a result, shipping companies may replace their giant cargo vessels with fleets of smaller, more fuel-efficient boats."  Are smaller vessels more fuel-efficient?  I would have thought the opposite.  Not in MPG/vessel, obviously, but in MPG/cargo ton.  What say the more knowledgeable about that?

>On Wed Nov 8, Hoyden wrote
>--------------------------
>>Autonomous cars, crewless ships, “what a fascinating modern age we live in.”

>>www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/robot-ships-will-bring-big-benefits-put-captains-shore-ncna818941


Message 4747f4808HW-10174-1225+06.htm, number 128227, was posted on Thu Nov 9 at 20:25:31
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-10174-868+06.htm

Re^2: Never happen.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Mark, am I thinking backward or are you?  Larger vessels would get more mi/gal-ton ... or, if you're British, fewer l/mi-ton.  I think we mean the same thing, just one of us is saying it backward.  J'accuse.

On Thu Nov 9, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>I reacted in to that statement the same way you did, Bob.  Larger vessels will provide a lower MPG/cargo ton.  Further, larger ships tend to have approximately the same size crews as smaller ships so the labor cost per cargo ton mile will also decrease for larger ships.  The growth of cargo ships over time is ample proof of these facts.

>On Thu Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote (snip)
>-------------------------------
>>By the way, Mr Bennington-Castro says "As a result, shipping companies may replace their giant cargo vessels with fleets of smaller, more fuel-efficient boats."  Are smaller vessels more fuel-efficient?  I would have thought the opposite.  Not in MPG/vessel, obviously, but in MPG/cargo ton.  What say the more knowledgeable about that?

>>On Wed Nov 8, Hoyden wrote
>>--------------------------
>>>Autonomous cars, crewless ships, “what a fascinating modern age we live in.”

>>>www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/robot-ships-will-bring-big-benefits-put-captains-shore-ncna818941


Message 4981ca22cZn-10175-310+05.htm, number 128228, was posted on Fri Nov 10 at 05:10:16
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10174-1225+06.htm

Re^3: Never happen.

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


You are correct, Bob.  That's what happens when I respond too quickly.  

Your measure of efficiency -- MPG/cargo ton -- is expressed differently from how I would state it: cargo-ton miles per gallon (or a larger unit (e.g., ton) for ships) of fuel consumed.  Either way, a more efficient vessel would have a higher value.

On Thu Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Mark, am I thinking backward or are you?  Larger vessels would get more mi/gal-ton ... or, if you're British, fewer l/mi-ton.  I think we mean the same thing, just one of us is saying it backward.  J'accuse.

>On Thu Nov 9, Mark Henry wrote
>------------------------------
>>I reacted in to that statement the same way you did, Bob.  Larger vessels will provide a lower MPG/cargo ton.  Further, larger ships tend to have approximately the same size crews as smaller ships so the labor cost per cargo ton mile will also decrease for larger ships.  The growth of cargo ships over time is ample proof of these facts.

>>On Thu Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote (snip)
>>-------------------------------
>>>By the way, Mr Bennington-Castro says "As a result, shipping companies may replace their giant cargo vessels with fleets of smaller, more fuel-efficient boats."  Are smaller vessels more fuel-efficient?  I would have thought the opposite.  Not in MPG/vessel, obviously, but in MPG/cargo ton.  What say the more knowledgeable about that?

>>>On Wed Nov 8, Hoyden wrote
>>>--------------------------
>>>>Autonomous cars, crewless ships, “what a fascinating modern age we live in.”

>>>>www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/robot-ships-will-bring-big-benefits-put-captains-shore-ncna818941


Message 4747f4808HW-10175-683+05.htm, number 128229, was posted on Fri Nov 10 at 11:23:33
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-10175-310+05.htm

Re^4: Never happen.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Yeah, even as I wrote it I felt that "mi/gal-ton" was awkward—technically ok but didn't feel like the way I should put it.  Thanks.

On Fri Nov 10, Mark Henry wrote
-------------------------------
>You are correct, Bob.  That's what happens when I respond too quickly.  

>Your measure of efficiency -- MPG/cargo ton -- is expressed differently from how I would state it: cargo-ton miles per gallon (or a larger unit (e.g., ton) for ships) of fuel consumed.  Either way, a more efficient vessel would have a higher value.

>On Thu Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Mark, am I thinking backward or are you?  Larger vessels would get more mi/gal-ton ... or, if you're British, fewer l/mi-ton.  I think we mean the same thing, just one of us is saying it backward.  J'accuse.

>>On Thu Nov 9, Mark Henry wrote
>>------------------------------
>>>I reacted in to that statement the same way you did, Bob.  Larger vessels will provide a lower MPG/cargo ton.  Further, larger ships tend to have approximately the same size crews as smaller ships so the labor cost per cargo ton mile will also decrease for larger ships.  The growth of cargo ships over time is ample proof of these facts.

>>>On Thu Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote (snip)
>>>-------------------------------
>>>>By the way, Mr Bennington-Castro says "As a result, shipping companies may replace their giant cargo vessels with fleets of smaller, more fuel-efficient boats."  Are smaller vessels more fuel-efficient?  I would have thought the opposite.  Not in MPG/vessel, obviously, but in MPG/cargo ton.  What say the more knowledgeable about that?

>>>>On Wed Nov 8, Hoyden wrote
>>>>--------------------------
>>>>>Autonomous cars, crewless ships, “what a fascinating modern age we live in.”

>>>>>www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/robot-ships-will-bring-big-benefits-put-captains-shore-ncna818941


Message 50e5a913p13-10176-744-90.htm, number 128230, was posted on Sat Nov 11 at 12:24:25
“A Darker Sea: Master Commodore Putnam and the War of 1812,” - a review from Wyoming

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This is the second volume in the Putnam series by James L Haley: www.wvgazettemail.com/arts_and_entertainment/books/wv-book-team-new-seagoing-series-from-james-ha

See also www.jameslhaley.com/ : ‘ . .  I am far from done. The last time I looked in my literary "barrel" there were twenty-two more I want to finish before I shed this mortal coil, so I'd better get busy!’


Message 47e54da900A-10177-377-07.htm, number 128231, was posted on Sun Nov 12 at 06:17:17
Sloth at a party, apparently un-debauched.

Hoyden


I loathe Geico; having dealt with them over their customer’s aptitude for T-boning my car, but occasionally they produce an entertaining Ad....

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl3l6Bq6bMo


Message 46c5413d00A-10178-285+06.htm, number 128232, was posted on Mon Nov 13 at 04:45:25
in reply to 47e54da900A-10177-377-07.htm

Re: trunk monkeys

Max


The classic
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv6dzP7WDMc&sns=em



On Sun Nov 12, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>I loathe Geico; having dealt with them over their customer’s aptitude for T-boning my car, but occasionally they produce an entertaining Ad....

>m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl3l6Bq6bMo


Message aeda81df00A-10178-1130-07.htm, number 128233, was posted on Mon Nov 13 at 18:50:22
Vaquita porpoise— “panda of the sea” endangered.

Hoyden


https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/11/climate/vaquita-porpoise-dies.html?action=click&module=Discovery&pgtype=Homepage

Message aeda81df00A-10178-1132+07.htm, number 128234, was posted on Mon Nov 13 at 18:51:35
in reply to aeda81df00A-10178-1130-07.htm

Corrected link

Hoyden


On Mon Nov 13, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/11/climate/vaquita-porpoise-dies.html?action=click&module=Discovery&pgtype=Homepage

Message aeda81df00A-10178-1253-07.htm, number 128235, was posted on Mon Nov 13 at 20:53:15
Diomedea exulans—drone prototype

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/scientists-want-build-robotic-albatross-here-s-why-ncna820186

Message d8efa64200A-10179-473-07.htm, number 128236, was posted on Tue Nov 14 at 07:53:19
Jack would be up before the idlers are called, Jupiter and Venus in conjunction—0.3 degrees apart.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2017/11/13/us/jupiter-venus-planetary-display-trnd/index.html

Message 61518b1d8HW-10179-748+06.htm, number 128237, was posted on Tue Nov 14 at 12:29:47
in reply to aeda81df00A-10178-1253-07.htm

What does the 'B' in "Benoit B Mandelbrot" stand for?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


While reading Hoyden's article I ran into a photo of Jupiter that reminded me irresistably of the Mandelbrot set.  I couldn't point to it from here, but there's a short (1:23) video here that I recommend for those who like such things.

The polar views are especially interesting.  It makes sense that the storm patterns there should be different from those we see more often, but they're different in surprising ways.

On Mon Nov 13, Hoyden  wrote
----------------------------
>www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/scientists-want-build-robotic-albatross-here-s-why-ncna820186


Message 50e5a913p13-10179-814+06.htm, number 128238, was posted on Tue Nov 14 at 13:34:17
in reply to 61518b1d8HW-10179-748+06.htm

Re: What does the 'B' in "Benoit B Mandelbrot" stand for?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


' In his autobiography, Mandelbrot did not add a circumflex to the "i" (i.e. "î") in his first name. He included "B" as a middle initial. The New York Times obituary stated that "he added the middle initial himself, though it does not stand for a middle name".[1] But other sources suggest that he intended his middle initial B. to recursively mean Benoit B. Mandelbrot, thereby including a fractal (his mathematical discovery) in his own name.[2][3]’

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot#cite_note-Mandelbrot.27s_name-4


Message 50e5a913p13-10179-815+06.htm, number 128239, was posted on Tue Nov 14 at 13:34:40
in reply to 61518b1d8HW-10179-748+06.htm

Re: What does the 'B' in "Benoit B Mandelbrot" stand for?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


' In his autobiography, Mandelbrot did not add a circumflex to the "i" (i.e. "î") in his first name. He included "B" as a middle initial. The New York Times obituary stated that "he added the middle initial himself, though it does not stand for a middle name".[1] But other sources suggest that he intended his middle initial B. to recursively mean Benoit B. Mandelbrot, thereby including a fractal (his mathematical discovery) in his own name.[2][3]’

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot#cite_note-Mandelbrot.27s_name-4


Message 61518b1d8HW-10179-1433+06.htm, number 128240, was posted on Tue Nov 14 at 23:53:21
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10179-815+06.htm

Wait, that's real?!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I thought it was just a joke.  What does the 'B' in "Benoit B Mandelbrot" stand for?  It stands for "Benoit B Mandelbrot".

On Tue Nov 14, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>'In his autobiography, Mandelbrot did not add a circumflex to the "i" (i.e. "î") in his first name. He included "B" as a middle initial. The New York Times obituary stated that "he added the middle initial himself, though it does not stand for a middle name". But other sources suggest that he intended his middle initial B. to recursively mean Benoit B. Mandelbrot, thereby including a fractal (his mathematical discovery) in his own name.’

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot#cite_note-Mandelbrot.27s_name-4


Message aeda06d900A-10182-1183-07.htm, number 128241, was posted on Fri Nov 17 at 19:42:48
Passenger Pidgeon’s demise-lack of DNA diversity?

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/11/16/billions-or-bust-new-genetic-c

Message 47e54da900A-10183-269-07.htm, number 128242, was posted on Sat Nov 18 at 04:29:38
“Andrei, you've lost another submarine?”

Dr. Jeffrey Pelt


www.cnn.com/2017/11/17/americas/argentina-submarine-missing/index.html

“Eternal Father, strong to save,
Whose arm hath bound the restless wave,
Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep
Its own appointed limits keep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!
O Christ! Whose voice the waters heard
And hushed their raging at Thy word,
Who walkedst on the foaming deep,
And calm amidst its rage didst sleep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!”


Message aeda06d900A-10183-1343-07.htm, number 128243, was posted on Sat Nov 18 at 22:22:57
“You foul my cable and I’ll cut your hawser”

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/11

Message 50e5a913p13-10184-376+06.htm, number 128244, was posted on Sun Nov 19 at 06:16:17
in reply to 47e54da900A-10183-269-07.htm

Missing Argentina submarine sent seven failed satellite calls,

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Attempts sent on Saturday from San Juan submarine lasted between four and 36 seconds, says defence ministry:

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/19/missing-argentina-submarine-sent-seven-failed-satellite-calls-search


Message 47e54da900A-10185-430-07.htm, number 128245, was posted on Mon Nov 20 at 07:10:15
Discharged Dead

Hoyden


Charles Manson — unlikely that any foremast Jack will buy his clothes at the Mainmast.

M-M-Mel Tillis

David Cassidy sinking fast, will take all of Stephen’s ability, “so long as the tide hasn’t yet turned”.


Message 61518b1d8HW-10185-761+05.htm, number 128246, was posted on Mon Nov 20 at 12:41:00
in reply to 47e54da900A-10183-269-07.htm

Re: “Andrei, you've lost another submarine?”

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I don't know why, but that hymn has always seemed to be especially powerful, or some of you might demote that to merely "especially evocative" which is ok.  Lots of hymns seem to me to be just religious poetry set to music, blah, blah, sing 'em half asleep and then forget 'em, they don't touch me.  There are of course many exceptions;  this one stands out among them, for me anyway.

On Sat Nov 18, Dr. Jeffrey Pelt wrote
-------------------------------------
>www.cnn.com/2017/11/17/americas/argentina-submarine-missing/index.html

>“Eternal Father, strong to save,
>Whose arm hath bound the restless wave,
>Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep
>Its own appointed limits keep;
>Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
>For those in peril on the sea!
>O Christ! Whose voice the waters heard
>And hushed their raging at Thy word,
>Who walkedst on the foaming deep,
>And calm amidst its rage didst sleep;
>Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
>For those in peril on the sea!”


Message 47da86d1UWK-10186-7-30.htm, number 128247, was posted on Tue Nov 21 at 00:06:49
RIP Malcolm Young

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


wouldnt want him listed with the sods below.

Message aeda06d900A-10186-417-07.htm, number 128248, was posted on Tue Nov 21 at 06:56:57
Thanksgiving table trivia - you don’t want to have anything to do with that wicked old Finner.

Ahab


www.cnn.com/2017/11/21/world/whales-righties-study/index.html

Message 50e5a913p13-10187-1178+03.htm, number 128249, was posted on Wed Nov 22 at 19:38:06
in reply to 47e54da900A-10183-269-07.htm

Re: “Andrei - LATEST

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Argentina: families of 44 lost submarine crew furious over red tape - Delay in launching rescue criticised as RAF aircraft carrying emergency life support pods lands in South American country:

‘ .  . Meanwhile, reports of a strange noise detected by US sensors on 15 November in the area where the submarine was traveling at the time of its disappearance generated speculation that the San Juan may have suffered an explosion shortly after it last made radio contact.

Enrique Balbi, a navy spokesman, said in a press update on Wednesday evening: “Today we received official indication that corresponds to the morning of Wednesday 15 November, coinciding with the area of operations of the last registered location of the submarine. This indicator corresponds to a hydro-acoustic anomaly, 30 miles north of its last known location at 7.30am.”

Balbi refused to elaborate on the announcement, saying more details would be forthcoming on Thursday . . '

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/22/search-for-missing-argentinian-submarine-enters-critical-phase


Message 50e5a913p13-10190-694-90.htm, number 128250, was posted on Sat Nov 25 at 11:34:08
You must remember this: Casablanca turns 75 . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . and remains a classic of wartime propaganda:

Stephen Mcveigh: Casablanca, which brought together the combined star-power of Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman, remains one of the best-loved movies ever produced in Hollywood. But the film, which hit the silver screen on November 26 1942, is more than just a love story set in Morocco.

Released in the aftermath of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor – which propelled a reluctant United States to enter World War II – the film was actually a classic piece of propaganda cinema masquerading as popular entertainment . .

[https://reaction.life/must-remember-casablanca-turns-75-remains-classic-wartime-propaganda/]


Message 50e5a913p13-10190-694+5a.htm, number 128250, was edited on Sat Nov 25 at 11:35:23
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10190-694-90.htm

You must remember this: Casablanca turns 75 . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . and remains a classic of wartime propaganda:

Stephen Mcveigh: Casablanca, which brought together the combined star-power of Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman, remains one of the best-loved movies ever produced in Hollywood. But the film, which hit the silver screen on November 26 1942, is more than just a love story set in Morocco.

Released in the aftermath of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor – which propelled a reluctant United States to enter World War II – the film was actually a classic piece of propaganda cinema masquerading as popular entertainment . .

[reaction.life/must-remember-casablanca-turns-75-remains-classic-wartime-propaganda/]

[ This message was edited on Sat Nov 25 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10190-694+5a.htm, number 128250, was edited on Sat Nov 25 at 11:35:24
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10190-694-90.htm

You must remember this: Casablanca turns 75 . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . and remains a classic of wartime propaganda:

Stephen Mcveigh: Casablanca, which brought together the combined star-power of Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman, remains one of the best-loved movies ever produced in Hollywood. But the film, which hit the silver screen on November 26 1942, is more than just a love story set in Morocco.

Released in the aftermath of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor – which propelled a reluctant United States to enter World War II – the film was actually a classic piece of propaganda cinema masquerading as popular entertainment . .

[reaction.life/must-remember-casablanca-turns-75-remains-classic-wartime-propaganda/]

[ This message was edited on Sat Nov 25 by the author ]


Message 47e54da900A-10190-927+5a.htm, number 128251, was posted on Sat Nov 25 at 15:26:46
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10190-694+5a.htm

I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

Croupier


Your winnings, sir

Message 50e5a913p13-10192-664-90.htm, number 128252, was posted on Mon Nov 27 at 11:04:13
M&C II rumour from Russell Crowe

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Russell Crowe‏ @russellcrowe

tweets:

For the Aubrey Maturin lovers , I do hear whispers indeed that a second voyage is perhaps potentially pre-proposed a possibility . So O’Brian affectionate’s and aficionados , let @20thcenturyfox know of your pleasure .

twitter.com/russellcrowe

Message 50e5a913p13-10192-798-07.htm, number 128253, was posted on Mon Nov 27 at 13:18:35
, From which tree native to South America is the alkaloid quinine extracted?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference; Stephen knew all about it - do you?

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195160901%2E013%2E0742 to find the answer.


Message 50e5a913p13-10192-834-90.htm, number 128254, was posted on Mon Nov 27 at 13:54:06
'They’re changing guard at Buckingham Palace . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
‘ . . “A soldier’s life is terrible hard,”
Says Alice . . ‘

www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2017/november/26/171126-royal-navy-buckingham-palace


Message aeda81e300A-10192-1177-07.htm, number 128255, was posted on Mon Nov 27 at 19:37:18
“USS Fitzgerald” damaged again.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2017/11/27/politics/uss-fitzgerald-damaged-japan/index.html

Message 50e5a913p13-10192-1178-90.htm, number 128256, was posted on Mon Nov 27 at 19:38:18
Argentina's missing submarine: water caused battery to short-circuit

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The San Juan . . had been ordered back to its base after it reported water had entered the vessel through its snorkel

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/27/argentinas-missing-submarine-water-caused-battery-to-short-circuit


Message 50e5a913p13-10192-1185+07.htm, number 128257, was posted on Mon Nov 27 at 19:44:51
in reply to aeda81e300A-10192-1177-07.htm

Gobbledigook

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘ . . "The risks that were taken in the Western Pacific accumulated over time, and did so insidiously," the report said. "The dynamic environment normalized to the point where individuals and groups of individuals could no longer recognize that the processes in place to identify and assess readiness were no longer working at the ship and headquarters level.”'

Could someone please translate this into plain language that Jack and his petty officers would understand?


Message 90a0625e00A-10193-523+06.htm, number 128258, was posted on Tue Nov 28 at 08:43:00
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10192-1185+07.htm

Re: Gobbledigook

YA


“We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”

― Konstantin Jireček

But seriously, this is closer to a direct translation:

"short term short cuts to established procedures became routine."
combine this with what everybody is told in the Navy:
"These rules or instructions were written in blood"
meaning "somebody died, now we do it this way"

So when you drop the previous routine established for a reason, well, shit happens.

you may like this:
www.reddit.com/r/navy/comments/6uz5hj/uss_john_mccain_collides_with_merchant_ship/

especially this:
www.reddit.com/r/navy/comments/6uz5hj/uss_john_mccain_collides_with_merchant_ship/dlx2esb/

or just ctrl-f 'sleep' in the entire thread




On Mon Nov 27, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>‘ . . "The risks that were taken in the Western Pacific accumulated over time, and did so insidiously," the report said. "The dynamic environment normalized to the point where individuals and groups of individuals could no longer recognize that the processes in place to identify and assess readiness were no longer working at the ship and headquarters level.”'

>Could someone please translate this into plain language that Jack and his petty officers would understand?


Message 6cadb1a1gpf-10193-1238+59.htm, number 128259, was posted on Tue Nov 28 at 20:37:53
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10192-664-90.htm

Re: M&C II rumour from Russell Crowe

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


'Perhaps potentially pre-proposed a possibility?' - bloody hell, did Crowe really say that? I hope not.



On Mon Nov 27, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Russell Crowe‏ @russellcrowe
>

>tweets:
>
>For the Aubrey Maturin lovers , I do hear whispers indeed that a second voyage is perhaps potentially pre-proposed a possibility . So O’Brian affectionate’s and aficionados , let @20thcenturyfox know of your pleasure .
>

>twitter.com/russellcrowe


Message aeda8a1000A-10193-1344+59.htm, number 128260, was posted on Tue Nov 28 at 22:24:03
in reply to 6cadb1a1gpf-10193-1238+59.htm

Whom do we propose for Lucky Jack?

Hoyden


Seeing RC lately, I’d assume he’d be offered a spot as “Yellowed Admiral”, or a master attendant at a dockyard.

I propose Tom Hardy, and no heel taps Gentlemen.


Message 50e5a913p13-10194-345+07.htm, number 128261, was posted on Wed Nov 29 at 05:45:07
in reply to aeda81e300A-10192-1177-07.htm

Gobbledigook

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘ . . "The risks that were taken in the Western Pacific accumulated over time, and did so insidiously," the report said. "The dynamic environment normalized to the point where individuals and groups of individuals could no longer recognize that the processes in place to identify and assess readiness were no longer working at the ship and headquarters level.”'

Could someone please translate this into plain language that Jack and his petty officers would understand?


Message 50e5a913p13-10194-348+58.htm, number 128262, was posted on Wed Nov 29 at 05:48:22
in reply to aeda8a1000A-10193-1344+59.htm

Cometh the hour . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


       . . cometh the man:
image host

He’d need a blonde wig and an officer’s jacket but apart from that he’s battle-ready.


Message 50e5a913p13-10194-378+58.htm, number 128262, was edited on Wed Nov 29 at 06:18:04
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10194-348+58.htm

Cometh the hour . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


       . . cometh the man:
image host

He’d need a blonde wig and an officer’s jacket but apart from that he’s battle-ready - except of course he’s much too thin - he’ll need to wear a cushion round his belly to make him authentic.

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 29 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10194-408-07.htm, number 128263, was posted on Wed Nov 29 at 06:48:16
‘In literary history who or what was the great Panjandrum?’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Go to www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199695140%2E013%2E1368 to find the answer to today's question from Oxford Reference.

Message 61518b1d8HW-10194-903+07.htm, number 128264, was posted on Wed Nov 29 at 15:03:26
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10194-408-07.htm

Re: ‘In literary history who or what was the great Panjandrum?’

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Nope, I got it wrong.  I was thinking it sounded like something Kipling would have made up meaning roughly "the Grand Poo-Bah".

On Wed Nov 29, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Go to www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199695140%2E013%2E1368 to find the answer to today's question from Oxford Reference.


Message 47e54da900A-10194-1235-07.htm, number 128265, was posted on Wed Nov 29 at 20:34:54
“The Story of How Surgeons Cleaned Up Their Act”-“NYT”

Hoyden


Victorian era, but I can imagine Stephen “going snacks” on one of these corpses.


www.nytimes.com/2017/11/29/books/revi

Message 47e54da900A-10195-1070-07.htm, number 128266, was posted on Thu Nov 30 at 17:49:31
Discharged Dead: Jim Nabors

Hoyden


What a voice


Message 47e54da900A-10195-1326-07.htm, number 128267, was posted on Thu Nov 30 at 22:06:04
Nelson, Napoleon and Malta—“NYT”

Hoyden


Valletta, Europe's first planned city.

www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/t-magazine/malta-cultural-crossroads


Message 50e5a913p13-10196-404+56.htm, number 128268, was posted on Fri Dec 1 at 06:44:10
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10192-1178-90.htm

RArgentina's missing submarine: 'No one will be rescued'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Navy will now only look in shallower waters for ARA San Juan, which sank off Patagonia, with 44 crew on board . .

[www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/30/argentina-calls-off-missing-submarine-rescue-effort]


Message 61518b1d8HW-10196-597+56.htm, number 128269, was posted on Fri Dec 1 at 09:57:41
in reply to 6cadb1a1gpf-10193-1238+59.htm

It was a joke

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Oh, come on, he was making a wry comment on how reliable are such whispers in Hollywood.  Hawkeye Pierce once complained that someone had given "a firm possibility of a definite maybe", along the same lines.

On Tue Nov 28, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>'Perhaps potentially pre-proposed a possibility?' - bloody hell, did Crowe really say that? I hope not.

>On Mon Nov 27, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>Russell Crowe‏ @russellcrowe tweets:
>>For the Aubrey Maturin lovers , I do hear whispers indeed that a second voyage is perhaps potentially pre-proposed a possibility . So O’Brian affectionate’s and aficionados , let @20thcenturyfox know of your pleasure .

>>twitter.com/russellcrowe


Message aeda0ac800A-10196-974-30.htm, number 128270, was posted on Fri Dec 1 at 16:13:43
75 years ago-Nukes on a squash court

Hoyden


www.uchicago.edu/features/how_the_first_chain_reaction_changed_science/

Message 4cdac2ec00A-10197-1415+55.htm, number 128271, was posted on Sat Dec 2 at 23:35:37
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10194-378+58.htm

Re: Cometh the truth. .

Max


Between his own productions, Venom and Mad Max, Hardy is booked solid for at least 3 years.
Not a chance for a major movie sequel in my view.

A TV series is always possible and probably the best means to bring the books to a viewing audience.

That dragons in the Royal Navy book series is still kicking around but lacks a home.

In my opinion Christoph Waltz was born to play Stephen.


On Wed Nov 29, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>       . . cometh the man:
>image host

>He’d need a blonde wig and an officer’s jacket but apart from that he’s battle-ready - except of course he’s much too thin - he’ll need to wear a cushion round his belly to make him authentic.


Message 4747f4808HW-10199-815+53.htm, number 128272, was posted on Mon Dec 4 at 13:35:18
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10197-1415+55.htm

Christoph Waltz!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Oh, what a perfectly perfect idea!  He's nowhere near ugly enough, but that can be managed.

Is it too late now that audiences have Paul Bettany in their minds' eyes, though?

On Sat Dec 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Between his own productions, Venom and Mad Max, Hardy is booked solid for at least 3 years.
>Not a chance for a major movie sequel in my view.

>A TV series is always possible and probably the best means to bring the books to a viewing audience.

>That dragons in the Royal Navy book series is still kicking around but lacks a home.

>In my opinion Christoph Waltz was born to play Stephen.

>On Wed Nov 29, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>       . . cometh the man:
>>image host

>>He’d need a blonde wig and an officer’s jacket but apart from that he’s battle-ready - except of course he’s much too thin - he’ll need to wear a cushion round his belly to make him authentic.


Message 4747f4808HW-10199-918+53.htm, number 128273, was posted on Mon Dec 4 at 15:18:24
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10192-1178-90.htm

How'd water get into the snorkel?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'm assuming a sub's snorkel is not the Mark-II or -III sort of thing a human diver uses; surely there's some mechanism for letting air in but cutting off when there's water...?

On Mon Nov 27, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>The San Juan . . had been ordered back to its base after it reported water had entered the vessel through its snorkel

>www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/27/argentinas-missing-submarine-water-caused-battery-to-short-circuit


Message a766e2d4fJj-10200-1105-90.htm, number 128274, was posted on Tue Dec 5 at 18:25:35
Calvert Marine Museum

Jennie
jenniearcheo@gmail.com


Hey guys,

It's been . . . oh, probably a decade or two. Anyway, the Calvert Marine Museum in Southern Maryland is looking for a new Curator of Maritime History. Please pass around to any interested parties. Or even disinterested parties who may have friends.

Cheers,
Jennie
https://councilofamericanmaritimemuseums.org/2017/12/05/calvert-marine-museum-seeking-curator-of-maritime-history/

P.S. My kids are 18 and 14 now. Tabitha (Tibby) is finishing her first semester at St. Mary's College of Maryland (precisely 30 years after me) and Rory is a high school freshman who spends 90% of his free time on video games and 10% rather grudgingly on his karate.


Message a766e2d4fJj-10200-1111+0d.htm, number 128275, was posted on Tue Dec 5 at 18:31:02
in reply to 465fd3f38YV-10123-28-90.htm

Re: So.....a pirate walks into

Jennie
jenniearcheo@gmail.com


On Tue Sep 19, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>>a doctor's office to have the spots on his arm looked at.

>"They're benign", the doctor said.

>"No, Doc, there be eleven - I counted them before I came in..."

>Happy TLAP Day!

LOL


Message aeda159200A-10201-392-07.htm, number 128276, was posted on Wed Dec 6 at 06:32:29
Life in Northern Spain, 1777-information found in an unlikely place.

Hoyden


news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/letters-found-butt-jesus-statue-time-capsule-spain-spd/

Message 50e5a913p13-10201-419-90.htm, number 128277, was posted on Wed Dec 6 at 06:59:11
Christine Keeler RIP

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Who she? - The good-time girl who bought down a government - forever fondly remembered by men of my age:

image host
‘ . .  Although Keeler objected to the proposal that she undress for the picture, the producers threatened her with breach of contract. Morley took control of the situation. He cleared the studio of everyone and manoeuvred his subject into a pose that would both fulfil the demands of her contract and keep her modesty intact. His studio chair provided the perfect cover.

Just five minutes, and one roll of film later, the session was over. One of the most famous and most imitated photographs ever published was actually an afterthought: ‘I was in a hurry to get the session over and I had stopped shooting,’ says Morley. ‘I had taken a step or so back and looked into my viewfinder as a parting glance, saw the image which caught my fancy... click, there it was, the last frame on the roll.’ . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/05/christine-keeler-obituary
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/gallery/2017/dec/05/profumo-affair-model-christine-keeler-a-life-in-pictures
www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2002/feb/10/features.magazine57


Message 50e5a913p13-10201-419+5a.htm, number 128277, was edited on Wed Dec 6 at 09:34:32
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10201-419-90.htm

Christine Keeler RIP

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Who she? - The good-time girl who bought down a government - forever fondly remembered by men of my age:

image host
‘ . .  Although Keeler objected to the proposal that she undress for the picture, the producers threatened her with breach of contract. Morley took control of the situation. He cleared the studio of everyone and manoeuvred his subject into a pose that would both fulfil the demands of her contract and keep her modesty intact. His studio chair provided the perfect cover.

Just five minutes, and one roll of film later, the session was over. One of the most famous and most imitated photographs ever published was actually an afterthought: ‘I was in a hurry to get the session over and I had stopped shooting,’ says Morley. ‘I had taken a step or so back and looked into my viewfinder as a parting glance, saw the image which caught my fancy... click, there it was, the last frame on the roll.’ . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/05/christine-keeler-obituary
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/gallery/2017/dec/05/profumo-affair-model-christine-keeler-a-life-in-pictures
www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2002/feb/10/features.magazine57

The P.M. aka “SuperMac”:
image host

[ This message was edited on Wed Dec 6 by the author ]


Message 6cadb064gpf-10202-658+50.htm, number 128278, was posted on Thu Dec 7 at 10:58:19
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10197-1415+55.htm

Re^2: Cometh the truth. .

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Could Waltz do a convincing Irishman? I doubt it. Find an Irish actor to play an Irishman, I say.
On Sat Dec 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Between his own productions, Venom and Mad Max, Hardy is booked solid for at least 3 years.
>Not a chance for a major movie sequel in my view.

>A TV series is always possible and probably the best means to bring the books to a viewing audience.

>That dragons in the Royal Navy book series is still kicking around but lacks a home.

>In my opinion Christoph Waltz was born to play Stephen.
>
>
>On Wed Nov 29, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>       . . cometh the man:
>>image host

>>He’d need a blonde wig and an officer’s jacket but apart from that he’s battle-ready - except of course he’s much too thin - he’ll need to wear a cushion round his belly to make him authentic.


Message aedf071700A-10202-659-07.htm, number 128279, was posted on Thu Dec 7 at 10:59:18
The Wild West at sea-$250,000 fish bladders and the Vaquita.

Hoyden


money.cnn.com/interactive/news/vaquita-business-of-extinction/

Message 50e5a913p13-10202-763-90.htm, number 128280, was posted on Thu Dec 7 at 12:43:26
Mutiny on the Bounty captain's unexpected resting place draws fans

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The tomb of Captain William Bligh, who died 200 years ago, has become a central feature of the Garden Museum in London
www.theguardian.com/culture/2017/dec/07/mutiny-on-the-bounty-captain-unexpected-resting-place-garden-museum
………………..
' . . It is important to note, however, that Bligh's ‘violence’ was habitually more verbal than physical . . Bligh flogged less than any other British commander in the Pacific Ocean in the later eighteenth century. What most threw Bligh into 'those violent Tornados of temper' . .  during which he gestured violently with his hands, was perceived dereliction of duty by officers and seamen's incompetence.

When either of these occurred Bligh's invective could bruise men's egos as much as any lash their backs. After the Bounty left Tahiti, Bligh fretted excessively about the plants' welfare. When officers and crew offended he called them 'damn'd Infernal scoundrels, blackguard, liar, vile man, jesuit, thief, lubber, disgrace to the service, damn'd long pelt of a bitch'; he told them he would make them 'eat grass like cows'; he told the officers that he would make them jump overboard before they reached Torres Strait . .

Interestingly, this ‘bad language’ was not obscene in the modern sense; rather, it was humiliating and dislocating. As Dening puts it, '[Bligh's language] was bad, not so much because it was intemperate or abusive, but because it was ambiguous, because men could not read in it a right relationship to his authority' . . Bligh's great failing was that he was so unaware of the effect his mood swings and harsh criticisms had on those about him . . '

(DNB)
………………


Message 4747f4808HW-10203-1156+57.htm, number 128281, was posted on Fri Dec 8 at 19:16:07
in reply to a766e2d4fJj-10200-1105-90.htm

Jennie!!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Welcome back!  I've occasionally gone away, too...but never as long as a decade, I don't think.  A few years, a time or two here and there.

On Tue Dec 5, Jennie wrote
--------------------------
>Hey guys,

>It's been . . . oh, probably a decade or two. Anyway, the Calvert Marine Museum in Southern Maryland is looking for a new Curator of Maritime History. Please pass around to any interested parties. Or even disinterested parties who may have friends.

>https://councilofamericanmaritimemuseums.org/2017/12/05/calvert-marine-museum-seeking-curator-of-maritime-history/

>P.S. My kids are 18 and 14 now. Tabitha (Tibby) is finishing her first semester at St. Mary's College of Maryland (precisely 30 years after me) and Rory is a high school freshman who spends 90% of his free time on video games and 10% rather grudgingly on his karate.


Message aedf071700A-10203-1291-07.htm, number 128282, was posted on Fri Dec 8 at 21:31:30
USS WARD found. Fired 1st American shots in anger —Pearl Harbor

Hoyden


o

Message 47e54da900A-10204-325-07.htm, number 128283, was posted on Sat Dec 9 at 05:24:43
“....the commodification of rare wildlife....”

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/cute-animal-selfie-you-took-vacation-encouraged-animal-abuse-ncna827911

Message 50e5a913p13-10206-635-90.htm, number 128284, was posted on Mon Dec 11 at 10:35:35
Arthur C Clarke at 100: still the king of science fiction

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



‘2001: A Space Odyssey, Childhood’s End, Arthur C. Clarke’s Mysterious World … one hundred years after his birth, the British writer is the undisputed master. Born on 16 December 1917, Arthur C Clarke lived long enough to see the year he and Stanley Kubrick made cinematically famous with 2001: A Space Odyssey, and it seemed for a while as though he might see in his centenary too: he was physically active (he had a passion for scuba diving), non-smoking, teetotal and always interested in and curious about the world. But having survived a bout of polio in 1962, he found the disease returned as post-polio syndrome in the 1980s; it eventually killed him in 2008 . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/09/arthur-c-clarke-king-science-fiction
…………………………………
' . . Chuck didn’t reply, so George swung round in his saddle. He could just see Chuck’s face, a white oval turned toward the sky. “Look,” whispered Chuck, and George lifted his eyes to heaven (there is always a last time for everything) . . ‘

urbigenous.net/library/nine_billion_names_of_god.html
………………………………...
Apart from his huge output of fiction and scientific books, Clarke left us his Three Laws. These are touched by the kind of eternal practicality which make his science fiction so effective and reveal his inner convictions:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The limits of the possible can only be found by going beyond them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology may, at first, be indistinguishable from magic.

Certainly, Clarke's imagination was magical, carrying him beyond the limits of possibility: his greatness was and remains that, from his almost Olympian heights, he could see more than ordinary men will ever see. Moreover, he possessed the power to carry anyone who wished to join him on these great heights of mystery and clarity. If the world believes the clarity to be deceptive, it is not the fault of Arthur C Clarke.

www.theguardian.com/books/2008/mar/19/arthurcclarke1


Message 50e5a913p13-10206-637-90.htm, number 128285, was posted on Mon Dec 11 at 10:37:12
Arthur C Clarke at 100: still the king of science fiction

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



‘2001: A Space Odyssey, Childhood’s End, Arthur C. Clarke’s Mysterious World … one hundred years after his birth, the British writer is the undisputed master. Born on 16 December 1917, Arthur C Clarke lived long enough to see the year he and Stanley Kubrick made cinematically famous with 2001: A Space Odyssey, and it seemed for a while as though he might see in his centenary too: he was physically active (he had a passion for scuba diving), non-smoking, teetotal and always interested in and curious about the world. But having survived a bout of polio in 1962, he found the disease returned as post-polio syndrome in the 1980s; it eventually killed him in 2008 . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/09/arthur-c-clarke-king-science-fiction
…………………………………
' . . Chuck didn’t reply, so George swung round in his saddle. He could just see Chuck’s face, a white oval turned toward the sky. “Look,” whispered Chuck, and George lifted his eyes to heaven (there is always a last time for everything) . . ‘

urbigenous.net/library/nine_billion_names_of_god.html
………………………………...
Apart from his huge output of fiction and scientific books, Clarke left us his Three Laws. These are touched by the kind of eternal practicality which make his science fiction so effective and reveal his inner convictions:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

2. The limits of the possible can only be found by going beyond them into the impossible.

3. Any sufficiently advanced technology may, at first, be indistinguishable from magic.

Certainly, Clarke's imagination was magical, carrying him beyond the limits of possibility: his greatness was and remains that, from his almost Olympian heights, he could see more than ordinary men will ever see. Moreover, he possessed the power to carry anyone who wished to join him on these great heights of mystery and clarity. If the world believes the clarity to be deceptive, it is not the fault of Arthur C Clarke.

www.theguardian.com/books/2008/mar/19/arthurcclarke1


Message 47e54da900A-10206-1076-07.htm, number 128286, was posted on Mon Dec 11 at 17:56:08
“There you have it, the whole shooting match....”. EcoShip cruise ship with 10 sails.

Hoyden


money.cnn.com/2017/12/11/technology/green-cruise-ship-ecoship/index.html

Message 605b084d00A-10208-774-07.htm, number 128287, was posted on Wed Dec 13 at 12:53:55
“Run amok” from 200 years ago: today’s mass killings.

Hoyden


mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/10/us/retro-killers.html?action=click&module=Features&pgtype=Homepage

Message 50e5a913p13-10209-667-90.htm, number 128288, was posted on Thu Dec 14 at 11:07:25
The Terror is coming!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



‘Inspired by a true story, The Terror centers on the Royal Navy’s perilous voyage into unchartered (sic) territory as the crew attempts to discover the Northwest Passage. Faced with treacherous conditions, limited resources, dwindling hope and fear of the unknown, the crew is pushed to the brink of extinction. Frozen, isolated and stuck at the end of the earth, The Terror highlights all that can go wrong when a group of men, desperate to survive, struggle not only with the elements, but with each other.’

www.syfy.com/syfywire/watch-the-first-freezing-trailer-for-amcs-new-horror-series-the-terror


Message 50e5a913p13-10209-667+5a.htm, number 128288, was edited on Thu Dec 14 at 11:09:46
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10209-667-90.htm

The Terror is coming!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



‘Inspired by a true story, The Terror centers on the Royal Navy’s perilous voyage into unchartered (sic) territory as the crew attempts to discover the Northwest Passage. Faced with treacherous conditions, limited resources, dwindling hope and fear of the unknown, the crew is pushed to the brink of extinction. Frozen, isolated and stuck at the end of the earth, The Terror highlights all that can go wrong when a group of men, desperate to survive, struggle not only with the elements, but with each other.’

www.syfy.com/syfywire/watch-the-first-freezing-trailer-for-amcs-new-horror-series-the-terror

[ This message was edited on Thu Dec 14 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10209-667+07.htm, number 128288, was edited on Thu Dec 14 at 11:10:48
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10209-667+5a.htm

The Terror is coming!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



‘Inspired by a true story, The Terror centers on the Royal Navy’s perilous voyage into unchartered (sic) territory as the crew attempts to discover the Northwest Passage. Faced with treacherous conditions, limited resources, dwindling hope and fear of the unknown, the crew is pushed to the brink of extinction. Frozen, isolated and stuck at the end of the earth, The Terror highlights all that can go wrong when a group of men, desperate to survive, struggle not only with the elements, but with each other.’

www.syfy.com/syfywire/watch-the-first-freezing-trailer-for-amcs-new-horror-series-the-terror

[ This message was edited on Thu Dec 14 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10209-677-07.htm, number 128289, was posted on Thu Dec 14 at 11:17:21
'Which British naval officer and explorer, along with his uncle, discovered the Magnetic Pole?’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199677832%2E013%2E3671 to find the answer to today's question!

Message 0c19ad1a00A-10209-806-30.htm, number 128290, was posted on Thu Dec 14 at 13:26:21
I feel this way some mornings

Max


Ancient Shark Found In North Atlantic a.msn.com/01/en-us/BBGIUaQ?ocid=se



Message 0c19ad1a00A-10209-811+49.htm, number 128291, was posted on Thu Dec 14 at 13:31:20
in reply to 6cadb064gpf-10202-658+50.htm

Re^3: Cometh the truth. .

Max


I'm sure that casting a kind of Spanish guy that is half Irish will pose no problems.

Acting Joe, it's what they do.

That said, Irish is pretty easy for these guys. John Vogt for example.
It's lower income Brit that seems to give them problems.



On Thu Dec 7, Joe McWilliams wrote
----------------------------------
>Could Waltz do a convincing Irishman? I doubt it. Find an Irish actor to play an Irishman, I say.
>On Sat Dec 2, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>Between his own productions, Venom and Mad Max, Hardy is booked solid for at least 3 years.
>>Not a chance for a major movie sequel in my view.

>>A TV series is always possible and probably the best means to bring the books to a viewing audience.

>>That dragons in the Royal Navy book series is still kicking around but lacks a home.

>>In my opinion Christoph Waltz was born to play Stephen.
>>
>>
>>On Wed Nov 29, Chrístõ wrote
>>----------------------------
>>>       . . cometh the man:
>>>image host

>>>He’d need a blonde wig and an officer’s jacket but apart from that he’s battle-ready - except of course he’s much too thin - he’ll need to wear a cushion round his belly to make him authentic.


Message 40915e768YV-10210-995-90.htm, number 128292, was posted on Fri Dec 15 at 16:35:39
Just...watch

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


www.facebook.com/SvMilitarhistorisktBibliotek/videos/1700255476662735/

There are other, longer 'official' versions of this, but I thing the addition of the William Tell Overture was brilliant!


Message 40915e768YV-10210-995+5a.htm, number 128292, was edited on Fri Dec 15 at 17:23:13
and replaces message 40915e768YV-10210-995-90.htm

Just...watch

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


www.facebook.com/SvMilitarhistorisktBibliotek/videos/1700255476662735/

There are other, longer 'official' versions of this, but I think the addition of the William Tell Overture was brilliant! (the music starts around 20 secs in)

Also, according to other sources, the boat was stolen.  

[ This message was edited on Fri Dec 15 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10211-347+04.htm, number 128293, was posted on Sat Dec 16 at 05:46:52
in reply to 605b084d00A-10208-774-07.htm

Opium frenzy

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘amok, n. and adv. Malay amoq adj., ‘engaging furiously in battle, attacking with desperate resolution, rushing in a state of frenzy to the commission of indiscriminate murder... Applied to any animal in a state of vicious rage’; Marsden Malay Dict.. .
A. n. 1. A name for: a frenzied Malay.
. . 1773 J. Hawkesworth Acct. Voy. S. Hemisphere III. iii. xiv. 754 To run a muck in the original sense of the word, is to get intoxicated with opium, and then rush into the street with a drawn weapon, and kill whoever comes in the way, till the party is himself either killed or taken prisoner . . ‘

(OED)


Message 47e54da900A-10211-1196-07.htm, number 128294, was posted on Sat Dec 16 at 19:56:26
Vote-12/21/18. Rajoy v. Puigdemont

Hoyden


mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/world/europe/catalonia-election-puigdemont-rajoy.html

Message 47e54da900A-10211-1201-07.htm, number 128295, was posted on Sat Dec 16 at 20:01:3